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[DE]Marcus

[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

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Compressed Feedback version:

Lot of potential, but like Atlas on release, is too "basic" at the moment and needs tweaks.

  • Enthrall: could use 1-3 more minions, matching Nekros, providing more feeding with Reave, and more overshields with Macabere Danse. The damage pillars on death should have a larger radius, attach a dot (similar to firewalker), or do something else (buff shields). The damage radius is too small. They die too quickly right after spending 25 energy on them.
  • Mesmer skin: having to recast it a bit too often. Could receive a slight buff. Enemies stunned/staggered by it should be lit up/colorful. Otherwise the ability is good.
  • Reave: The FX of the wall could be better. The energy cost feels high. Give it a stagger/stun to enemies you pass through, for a couple of seconds.
  • Danse Macabere: Everything about the ability is fine as it, the synergy with Enthrall is the problem. The overshields are way too insignificant. Buff it in some way, let mods effect the potency.
  • Overall stats: Fine as they are.
  • Passive: It's fine, a good passive.

 

Extended Feedback:
 

Spoiler

 

Enthrall (1st ability):

Here you have a support ability and a damage ability rolled into one. It does very well in being support by providing a nice distraction to nearby enemies as well as taking an enemy out of the fight. However, that's where the ability is really only useful. The damage pillar it leaves behind has the potential to do a lot of damage. Yet it has a very tiny radius and lasts a short time span when attempting to fill a space with them.

The damage over time, small radius, and mostly random spots the pillars occupy really only make the damage useful against extremely dense groups of enemies (mostly rare scenario) or enemies who run straight toward you and you lead them into the spot. Even if enemies run through the pillar, they receive only a single tick or small portion of the potential damage. Unlike Nezha's firewalker, that you can control the area (enemy pathing, hello) and it generally applies the fire status effect. Letting the DoT follow the enemy even if it steps out of the line of damage.

(The pillars are similarly useless as Ember's Fireblast ring except you can at least place that exactly where you want it).

I think the damage pillar problem could be remedied if it applied a debuff to enemies instead for a short period, allowing them to take more damage from all attacks. Dealt a burst of damage based off remaining time, dropped a buff instead of a damage pillar, or the radius could be increased from a base of 2m to 3.5m. That way, with Stretch or Overextend - the most influential ability range extenders, it will hit 5m. With max range, ~10m. Which is a lot more workable.

Again, the damage is fine on the ability but really only against enemies like the infested or the pets from the Grineer (dogs) or Corpus snipers.

The other problem is the synergy with Danse Macabere. Enthralled killed by Danse Macabere provide a whopping 50 overshield! Now, this is a lot if you fight against enemies under level 30 (and 4x50=200). However, anything above level 30 and enemies can easily get rid of that overshield in just 1-2 hits from any enemy. It's underwhelming. The amount received should be increased to maybe 100, letting power strength mods effect it, or have an effect of instantly replenishing your shields. Also increasing the maximum Enthralled amount (cap) would also help with this issue.

As a final thought, I don't think it would be too out of place to switch the overshield drop and the damage pillar effects. Enthrall normal deaths would drop overshields, further enhancing the support ability while the damage pillar would further support the spreading of damage from the laser light show.

 

Mesmer Skin (2nd ability):

As many others have mentioned, in the thick of battle, it's somewhat hard to catch who gets stunned/staggered by the ability. It could definitely use a bit of FX like highlighting enemies with your energy color but faded/blurry - only for the player/client side. It also feels like you have to constantly cast it and the actual "armor" FX is kind of dull.

I also believe the ability could do, more. Maybe channeling it would drain Enthralled health/shields to provide the "armor" with more charges and duration. Maybe allow it to be casted on allies. It's a fairly basic ability as it stands. Not that it's a bad ability, it's just very limited for what it does in our limited ability toolkit.

 

Reave (3rd ability):

As others have mentioned, the FX need to be more rounded or higher quality. The very flat and square piece of smoke is a bit jarring when the other graphics and effects around seen to be more complex and visually pleasing.

Every other dash/charge ability in the game, crowd controls enemies that you effect. I think it would only make sense that an enemy losing a fair chunk of health/shields should stagger or be stunned for a couple seconds after passing through them. Maybe an algorithm that bases the duration on the % health/shield lost. Maybe while Mesmer skin is active, the stagger would last an additional second. This gives you a way to have a very quick form of CC to alleviate allies as well as a brief respite after just (re)acquiring your health and/or shields.

Like with Mesmer Skin, why not have it affect allies in some form? Maybe while having Mesmer skin active, apply a duplicate at 75% efficiency to allies or give them a health/shield over time buff similar to what you recently stole.

 

Danse Macabere (4th ability):

The damage, cost, range, and animation are just fine for this ability. My only feedback is said in the Enthrall section about the overshields received from killing them.

 

 

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General-- Speed. Up. His. Casting. Seriously, you do not need to necessitate Natural Talent so all of his abilities are tolerable to cast. It's the Limbo problem all over again, but at least can be left undisturbed during casting, and you already found out what happened when Khora had long casting times. Also, why did you drop his original passive? I thought it was a great idea. This new one just isn't practical, and if you are making him shield focused it hardly works. It's another frame that relies on the fickle nature of shields.

 

Enthrall-- This is my biggest issue. You went from a cap of around 20 to 4, and fairly silently. I can understand having an army is powercreeping Nyx, but four thralls is just pathetic. They die so quickly (pubs especially) that it's hard to find use for CC, and the pillars they leave behind just don't do anything. Also, since the cap for thralls is low, the synergies for his 3 and 4 suffer. Also, the synergy with his 4 is just too clumsy, but more on that later. One good point is that it is just a "shut up" button for heavy units, so you can quite quickly take a priority target (Nox) out of battle.

Mesmer Skin-- Well, it really is just Amesha's 1 in code. However, what people have really forgotten is that Amesha achieves greatly more charges and the actual bullet count in Archwing is much less, so those charges drop slower; furthermore, it also has an AOE dps reduction out of its three, making those charges have even more value. On ground level, if you have five enemies firing at you at once (which you will, like all the time), say goodbye to five charges within a second. Plus, at high level, he becomes insanely reliant on it. Since his best defense aside from mesmer are shields, you are leaving much to be desired because it has been proven time and time again that shields are hardly worth it, not until you introduce a mod where you can give damage reduction to shields only (which all high shield frames could use). Good point, the synergy to gain a free cast of his 1 is a nice touch.

Reave-- It does what it says on the tin, it's an "oh ****" button to get out of dodge and maybe leech some dudes on the way out. However, as to my above point, tighten the cast time.

Danse Macabre-- You know, you pleasantly surprised me with this one. It does have issue on uneven terrain, but I never expected the status to be determined by enemy. The damage is very fair as well, great for mowing down groups of fodder and then jumping out to focus larger targets (which you could just enthrall to mitigate the threat). However, the synergy with Enthrall is crude to put into practice. Firstly, you only have four thralls so not many drops are even acquired, and once you kill them you lose that CC, and trust me the overshields have proven to not matter when all the enemies are looking at you suddenly. Then you have to hop out, enthrall some more dudes, then hop back in. It's just clunky.

 

In conclusion, what was first shown with him was the kind of power I expected and I know more had expected. I understand that everything is subject to change, but the changes to his passive, the thrall cap and other things has not been elaborated well if at all.

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Some suggestions from a player who has dumped 2 forma into him so far. Not adding a 3rd until changes are made. I'm going to be as critical as I can be without coming off as an elitist jerk.

Why only 4 thralls? This amount is so low and it takes quite a bit to get going, and cannot spread reliably. I suggest making the cap at least 10. The cast time is insanely long, it effects only 1 enemy per cast, your team can kill your thralls not allowing you to set up at all. There is no point to this ability at all. Make it an AOE cast, up the number of thralls, and improve the cast time. The cap of 4 just makes it impossible to use.

The beams upon death seem to go away too quick to get any use from it since enemies will run past it, and it does pulse damage instead of continous damage, and it does not stun enemies, and the range is insanely low for the beams. They aren't that practical to use instead of some sort of fun. The damage is sub par. It would get a good dps boost if it stunned enemies with either a knockdown or a fire DOT effect. I would also like the beams to spread affliction, but if that does not happen I understand why, it would seem kinda of strong. 

His 2 is okay. It can be improved if it did not go away with any type of damage. I have to constantly recast the ability to have any chance. Make the charges have a delay or something, because with the amount of times we get shot, this ability pretty much does not exist really. 

The synergy with his 1 and 2 is there, but it is the severe lack of power with his 1 that prevents a lot of his abilities from shining.

The 3 could use some visual effects and number boosts. As far as I have seen, power strength does not effect this move in any way, whether it is negative or positive power strength. The width in my opinion also seems low. Since it has a startup time, enemies could just run away by the time you start the ability up, making it near useless to use aside from movement when using his 4.

His 4 is great, and I have no issues with it. For those saying it is too strong, a lot of abilities are too strong, aka Mesa's 4, Saryn in general, Excal, you name it. But other damage abilities can do it better, obviously. His 4 is a blast to use, and the damage is fine.

 

Tl;dr: the cast time for his 1 is too long, the cap is unnecessary, affliction is near impossible to spread in a team setting, thralls can be killed with ease, pillars are lackluster, the cast only effects 1 enemy and isn't aoe and these problems severely limit his power. His theme is to control enemies and demolish foes, but it seems he does less than that. He is in a bad state right now, and needs severe changes.

 

Look at what happened with Khora. She released in a really bad state, but now she is a pretty good warframe in terms of CC. Revenant needs a lot more love and a lot more touchups. I was really excited for this frame, I love his look, and he is so much fun to play, but a lot of his kit is weak in a practical environment and needs a lot more time before he is great. I hope DE reads this reply as well as others.

Also, side note, energy color does not work on the new Kavat armor set. It is default no matter what.

MRGA (Make Revanant Great Again)

I know DE is focused on a lot of things right now, such as The Old War, Railjack, Fortuna, and Garuda coming up that they did not have enough time for Revanant. Or maybe they did.

But he does need some work before he is viable. 

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Sad to report the unsurprising fact that the new 4 isn't just godawfully idiotic looking trash for owners, it's also quite obnoxious to have in your party.  You actually managed to come up with something worse than a dead ability: it makes other people's games worse even if you avoid it yourself.  Wonderful.

Also, Revenant buyers, please stop trying your new toy out in PUBLIC ESO.  You know he doesn't belong there.  Stop sandbagging other people's runs.  What an awful time to be on a 50-login affinity boost...

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14 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

Also, Revenant buyers, please stop trying your new toy out in PUBLIC ESO.  You know he doesn't belong there.  Stop sandbagging other people's runs.  What an awful time to be on a 50-login affinity boost...

Private Squad. If you're going to be picky on who you want in ESO, go to recruiting.

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Mesmer skin needs clearer feedback as an ability. It's not immediately obvious when you've run out of charges just looking at Revenant until you're dead.

Reave is just bad atm. Looks bad, hard to control, minimal health drain.

Enthrall is fine, the thrall cap could be increased to 6 or so but I don't have any strong feelings either way. One thing though is that the damage zones thralls leave behind should scale off a portion of the enemy's health to ensure they remain useful at higher levels.

His passive is so counterintuitive. Why would you ever want to lose shields with him? Why is the range so small?

His 4 is really good. Nice work!

 

Overall he's a blast to play but there are a lot of little nitpicks. The core loop is strong and his dps and survival potential are great though so he's on the right track overall.

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So...Rev's Enthrall seems to have a number cap, 4 enemies and it just stops enthralling? Is this intended or a bug? If it's intended...well can we get a increase to the cap? Base of like...I donno, 10? Maybe have it affected by power strength? I understand you want to keep nyx relevant, but to cap the number of thralls and not have it listed anywhere in the power is just...annoying/bad design. If you're going to cap the number of thralls then I'd actually suggest changing how the power works, like making a toggle and when ever you do damage(Or enemy is stunned by his Mesmer) they are thralled, this could either be a constant drain or a drain when triggered(Like how Ivara's bow only drains energy when you fire).


But i'd still want to see a little increase to the cap, from 4 to at the very least 7, to make him at least on par with Nekros in the minion department...I mean Nekros can have 7 minions(which includes nullifiers which revenant cannot enthrall) that he can just keep spending energy to keep alive. Revenant gets 4 that can be killed by...everything, which I get that's what you want(Reave and Danse get bonuses for killing enthralled enemies), but...a lot of the time before I can even use those benefits the thrall is dead, mostly due to a team mate wiping them out. And Nyx can have...one personal minion that is practically immortal, but once mind control wears off all that built up damage kills them, and she can turn entire maps on each other with just what...two casts of Chaos? I feel like Revenant should be the middle man here in terms of minion group size, or at least be allowed to reach Nyx level of  controlling maps it just takes longer is all, which I thought was kind of the point? Like Revenant COULD do what Nyx's Chaos does, only slower, and him killing them gives bonuses to him and team mates(Overshields, yaaaay), which...isn't the case. 4 enemies is just too low a number if you aren't going to make them damage immune(Like Nyx's Mind Control target), or if nothing else immune to damage from other warframes.

Also, what does range even do for his ult? So far it just makes the beams thicker, but we can't notice it doing any more damage per second or...anything differently between having 250% or 35% range. On that subject, when Revenant is affected by the corruption buff from relics it DOES get a actual range increase, the AoE increases as well as the beam thickness.

Oh and Reave's size isn't affected by range either, I can understand the % drain not being affected by power strength, but to not be able to increase the size of Reave(even though it's a visible stat that does increase with mod rank as well as the % drain) is annoying...

In short, I donno how to feel about Revenant clearly having a 'dump stat', a stat on him that barely if at all affects anything in a real way. Range doesn't positively or negatively affect 3 out or 4 powers, and the only power that is affected by it is Enthrall and well...even then that's only the cast range and the AoE of the pillar of damage after death, which IMO needs to enthrall enemies that walk into it.

How ever...the rest of him is good, the new shotgun is great, quest is a taaaad buggy and RNG could be better or at least allow trading(Personally this was the first time RNG was not horrible for me, but few friends are having difficulties as per usual). It's been a good update.

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8 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

Bug:  Unable to damage thralls using the arca plasmor.

Other than that, I'm still toying with him.

The damage to thralls seems really inconsistent and weird. With the Scourge I was unable to damage them with direct hits, but the splash damage when i shot the floor seemed to hurt them.

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1 hour ago, R34LM said:

Private Squad. If you're going to be picky on who you want in ESO, go to recruiting.

It's not being picky to want functional players.  Especially since Revenants, having made a flagrantly bad decision, invariably ditch the squad early.  If I only had to revive them, fine, but they basically take a slot from someone who might have bothered to be there for zone 8.

Private squad if you're just screwing around to test.

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Id just like to say thank you de i am enjoying this frame it may not be to every ones taste but doesnt matter to me i like it and thats all that matters in the end ...

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If only it wasnt locked behind gold rarity in Bounties...I'd rather farm Harrow and Khora again than deal with long loading screens, bugs and low framerate in this.

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The 1st ability is not pratical, i tested the frame for a time and found myself using it once or twice throughout my play time. 

The 2nd ability is good, but needs some polish, maybe a grace time between charges, removal of the decimal numbers for charges (i dont get why i have 8.2 charges, leaving me with 0.2 after the 8th shot and cant recast). The fx showed during the devstreams are not there, only a smoke effect. Overall, it has potential.

The 3rd ability i would suggest removing the cast time, it makes enemies able to escape easily or let us move the direction using wasd or the mouse. I think you guys should consider adding the 1st ability as part of the 3rd one. I mea, as a vampire, vlad or revenant should be able to bite his enemie to turn him into a thral, maybe doing that only a x number of enemies will get affected and those start to spread the virus around. It would sinergyse a lot with his 4th and open the possibility for a new 1st ability, but maintaining the previous idea of plague spreading. Besides that i believe a little polish on the smoke effect would be nice too.

The 4th ability i really dont know what to say, i found myself using it a lot, it's fun sounds cool and everything. Maybe adding some one laser or two up and down so we have a little more of coverage and dont need to enter and exit all the time when we have vertical rooms.

 

Overall i'm super happy with this frame, even with the bugs and little problems, he has a nice visual, nice theme, a cool little quest, it's not hard to get and it's fun to play. Just remove some clunkyness on his abilities and he's going to be a 9/10 for me xD

 

Thanks DE for the update and effort, all the best for everyone!

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I was looking forward to this frame but at the same time annoyed that we were shown that his Enthrall ability could spread to a maximum of 20 enemies.  The exact same amount of shadows we could have as the old Nekros, before it was capped at a measly 7.
I was excited to finally have the overwhelming force play to return, the thing that I barely find in most games that work efficiently... but silly me, it always must be for a focus on a one-man-army powerhouse frame, not an actual one frame leading an army.
Again... just either give me the old 20 shadow Nekros or give the Revenant 20 thralls.
I don't see what the problem is this time, this wouldn't affect potato PC's much as it's only existing NPCs as opposed to spawning 20 more NPCs.

And yes this is personal, I still have a grudge against the fact that I felt betrayed when my favorite way to play Nekros was taken away...  A play style I found and perfected to my liking which I thought was the point of the game... but again it was taken.  Now it's all back to damage dealing one-shot struggle...  Not really fun if every other Warframe is suppose to strive for that same goal, to kill enemies faster by themselves.
The way how the old Nekros I liked worked was perfect for me.
On a time duration rather than a health decay I cannot predict.
Encouraged to kill up to 20 enemies as fast as I can before the timer goes up.
All of these shadows spreading out and drawing agro and actually doing good damage, because of the amount of them that are firing at the same time.
... but...  Again I'm the minority...  Potato PC's come first and we all must be forced to sacrifice for those that barely meet the minimum spec requirements.
And so I rushed with platinum, only to find out it wasn't worth it.
I can only hope that one of the two frames get the 20 minions cap returned.

And thus is my feedback/rant.

 

-> "Improve Enthrall cap to 20" <-

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Enthrall: Nearly useless enemy aggro, ability to kill thralls makes any kind of frame thats got any aoe damage on your team completely render this ability useless, cap of 4 makes the other abilities have seriously weak synergy, just doesnt make much sense to add a minion ability and not give it anything to make it useful. if it had unlimited thralls you could at least use it sort of like inaros's 4 and it would spread slowly and take some damage off, but since its only 4 you have to keep casting and wasting energy on enemies that are going to die by team mates anyways even if it was unlimited thralls. enemy AI makes using the damage pillar inconsistent. 

Mesmer Skin: decent ability but should really be time based. there isnt enough of an indication as to when it wears off visually and it seems like status effects count towards a hit, really hoping this is a bug. compared to pretty much every other defense ability in the game this is almost not worth casting unless youre using your 4, in which case it runs out super quick and you need to keep going through the long cast time every time you take a couple hits or get a single status effect, then using your 4. 

Reave: by the time you realize you need health and shield and you hit 3, youre already dead. for an ability that is supposed to be used actively to keep health up when low instead of maybe giving overshield at least, it has a super slow charge up for no reason, should just hit the button and immediately dash. wouldnt be much of a problem if your 2 was more consistent but it isnt so..

Danse Macabre: AOE ass blaster that CHANGES DAMAGE TYPE BASED ON ENEMY. why even bother with everything else besides his 2 maybe. youre telling me youre gonna make 4 thralls and heal yourself with your 3 and defend with 2 while your thralls dont do any damage instead of just hitting 2 and going on a laser dance murder party? come on. 

passive: useless. 

This whole frame is based around hitting 2 and watching the little number near the ability icon while you afk spin to win in a whole new way. need to to some more testing to see how far his 4 goes once i get some forma on. 

suggested tweaks: either unlimited thralls, or make it so allies cant kill them. not worth the energy to cast. if left at 4 thralls, increase their damage and make their damage change as well based on enemy type. every time we get a frame with minion abilities theyre inconsistent and usually not worth the cast. make his 2 time based, even if it is only like 10s long with 100 duration, anything with a status proc or high fire rate gun makes this ability crap. make his 3 give overshield and shorten the casting time. this paired with a more consistent 2 would go a long way towards making him more survivable 

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Enthrall cap should be 10. its proliferation needs to be faster. there is no point in using a skill that requires enemies to be alive long enough to spread if they die before it can. please try and take the pace of the game into account when making proliferation skills. khora suffers this same problem with ensnare.

Mesmer Skin needs some kind of visual queue when last charge is used. atleast with nova you know when you need to recast because you could clearly see all the balls are gone.

Reave's dash length is too long. if its going to be long id like to have control over its movement.

 

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I’m just gonna go point by point here. 

 

1st ability - this is kinda a great ability. If you’re playing solo. If you’re playing in a squad then it’s almost useless as your allies are gonna kill your thralls or the enemy before your thralls can spread. 

 

My suggestion to change would be make it so allies cant kill your thralls, like Nekros’ shadows. And instead of a damaging pillar upon death, perhaps an AOE burst Enthrall?

 

2nd ability - kinda similar to above. Good synergy with your 1st but other than that, eh. 

 

3rd ability - I literally never notice it doing anything. It’s a nice way to move quickly when using your fourth, but I never notice the health and shield gain. And I’ve sat and watched my health and shields bar while using it. Also is anyone else’s smoke just a solid square at the moment?

 

My suggestion would be that this is how you gain overshields, or that using Reave on un-enthralled foes enthralls them.

 

4th ability - I don’t mind this one tbh. But I don’t understand what range does? The adjustment is only minuscule at best. Being able to receive EV while using it is pretty great though. 

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Have several clanmates who got all the pieces in under 2 hours of farming. Nothing like Harrow or Khora.

 

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They had so much potential with this theme and they botched first 3 abilities in my opinion, the 4th is fiine but for his 4 to wwork better at high levels he needs the 2 to work properly.

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52 minutes ago, RobWasHere said:

If only it wasnt locked behind gold rarity in Bounties...I'd rather farm Harrow and Khora again than deal with long loading screens, bugs and low framerate in this.

Took me and my partner an hour to Farm him. 

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25 minutes ago, GrimMonsoon said:

Being able to receive EV while using it is pretty great though. 

Don't get attached to that.

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Monster frame,DE did a great job well done.Only 3rd ability feels kinda meh.I would love if you could recharge your 2nd ability's charges while passing through enemieis that are marked.

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6 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Don't get attached to that.

I’m not. No doubt it’ll get nerfed. Though if they do they should nerf Equinox working with this too. 

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I’m just gonna go point by point here. 

 

1st ability - this is kinda a great ability. If you’re playing solo. If you’re playing in a squad then it’s almost useless as your allies are gonna kill your thralls or the enemy before your thralls can spread. 

 

My suggestion to change would be make it so allies cant kill your thralls, like Nekros’ shadows. And instead of a damaging pillar upon death, perhaps an AOE burst Enthrall?

  

2nd ability - kinda similar to above. Good synergy with your 1st but other than that, it’s pretty ... eh. 

 

3rd ability - I literally never notice it doing anything. It’s a nice way to move quickly when using your fourth, but I never notice the health and shield gain. And I’ve sat and watched my health and shields bar while using it. Also is anyone else’s smoke just a solid square at the moment?

 

 My suggestion would be that this is how you gain overshields, or that using Reave on un-enthralled foes enthralls them.

 

4th ability - I don’t mind this one tbh. But I don’t understand what range does? The adjustment is only minuscule at best. Being able to receive EV while using it is pretty great though

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