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[DE]Marcus

[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

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2 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

And yet with just 308 damage per sec on a lower range i managed to "overshadow" him. On revenant theres simply no reason to go for negative strenght what means he dealt atleast 1250 damage per sec across 50 meters.

Due to me using sonar that also makes sure that he too got some nice damage bonus from hitting enemies while i only get those if the sonar spots are on the enemies knee.

no he didnt do it across 50M again its limited by line of sight. if he did it across 50M there would have to be no obstacles present.

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41 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

an ability that completely ignores defenses is an ok ability? thats like saying bladestorm is an "ok" ability.

It does not "completely ignore defenses"

Dealing adaptive damage is ok, but it has it's own series of issues.

1. Corrosive procs need to be dealt in large numbers to remove armor. Which is completely different than Bladestorms finisher damage, which does ignore armor.

2. Magnetic procs are only good against shields, so it removes them. Good, but afterwards it deals gas, which is good against non robotic corpus units, but the robotic ones take less damage. (Includes the corrupted ones)

3. Gas is good against infested as it gets a damage multiplier, but toxin does not and instead deals less damage. (No damage if there is a toxin ancient present)

(Corrupted) Ancient healers make the ability a joke since you can't focus it on single targets.

In general there is a delay between it doing damage (the 90 degree arc with no lasers)

It can't target flying units very well.

More status chance is locked behind a higher energy cost. (Which is the only direct input players get from the ability itself)

Even if you still find it a great or possibly an amazing ability, leaving it as is will lead to future nerfs on it.

 

 

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1 minute ago, EinheriarJudith said:

no he didnt do it across 50M again its limited by line of sight. if he did it across 50M there would have to be no obstacles present.

Well thanks to the constant movement im pretty sure that unless we talk about the flying enemies or the few corpus what spawns on the stairs he covered the whole map efficiently.

6 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

an ability that completely ignores defenses is an ok ability? thats like saying bladestorm is an "ok" ability.

It is just an okayish skill, the damage might be fine to some degree but i can find frames and even some weapons what are capatble of doing the same for much less effort.

Against corpus its just as unuseable as everything else, against the infested its weaker than many abilities and against the grineer you will die faster than you can strip down their armor so you might aswell shoot them in the head.

 

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About his passive.

 His passive is 'Retaliation' and it seems like comes from vombalyst when they gain the body after destroyed once. Personally there's no difference between Nova's passive except trigger mechanism. One will triggered when shield run out, another will triggered when knockdown. 

Below the things just personal idea.

-Returner 

 If Revenant down, he will not suffered bleeding phase like other warframes. But he will change his form of ghost which appearing clue of Revenant mission which raise his hand from the ground. He can be freely move, but cannot damage his enemy. If allies touch for revive him it will cost more time to return and if he collect 4 energy orbs during this phase he can be returned by himself.

-Astral body

 Revenant has only HP with armor such as Nidus and Inaros, but when HP runs out he will change his form like ghost which appearing the final phase of his own mission. Then all of maximum hit points will be  transfer to shield points(Only shield has). This phase he can be attack normally, but if he losing all of his shield then he died immediately. If allied touch him to revive, it will take more time to revive. If he endure his bleeding timer(In this case, can be called self-revive timer) reached 0 sec with shield points. Then he will revive immediately.

 HP mods will increase his first phase not bleeding phase. Also shield mod only increase his shield amount during the bleeding phase.

 

Just typing when the idea pop in my head. But feels like there are lots of problem contain with my english skill and no arrangement. 

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28 minutes ago, Hidronic said:

About his passive.

 His passive is 'Retaliation' and it seems like comes from vombalyst when they gain the body after destroyed once. Personally there's no difference between Nova's passive except trigger mechanism. One will triggered when shield run out, another will triggered when knockdown. 

Below the things just personal idea.

-Returner 

 If Revenant down, he will not suffered bleeding phase like other warframes. But he will change his form of ghost which appearing clue of Revenant mission which raise his hand from the ground. He can be freely move, but cannot damage his enemy. If allies touch for revive him it will cost more time to return and if he collect 4 energy orbs during this phase he can be returned by himself.

-Astral body

 Revenant has only HP with armor such as Nidus and Inaros, but when HP runs out he will change his form like ghost which appearing the final phase of his own mission. Then all of maximum hit points will be  transfer to shield points(Only shield has). This phase he can be attack normally, but if he losing all of his shield then he died immediately. If allied touch him to revive, it will take more time to revive. If he endure his bleeding timer(In this case, can be called self-revive timer) reached 0 sec with shield points. Then he will revive immediately.

 HP mods will increase his first phase not bleeding phase. Also shield mod only increase his shield amount during the bleeding phase.

 

Just typing when the idea pop in my head. But feels like there are lots of problem contain with my english skill and no arrangement. 

What if instead, his passive was kept as a when shields are down, do this, but have it be the Eidolon's energy spike wave of magnetic damage in a large area; smashing enemies for the amount of maxed shields converted into Magnetic damage waves? I really like the idea of giving Revenant the phase body idea like the Vomvalyst or making his shield be silly to take down, like the Eidolons he is based on.

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  So about Reave. I've been think about it a lot more and as much as I like the way it looks and as fun as it is to use. I don't think it's as strong of a ability as i'd like it to be. Currently I think it's way to underwhelming on non-enthralled targets.

 The fact that you have to first enthrall a target to get even a decent amount of health steal. hobbles this ability too much and makes it unreliable for healing. It's easier to use Life strike at that point. I would like more effective healing on non-enthralled enemies.

  As a perk for using Reave on thralled enemies. I would appreciate Reave granting overshields and/or armor stripping to help soften hard targets. Which would strengthen the benefit of using Enthrall/Reave and improve the effectiveness of Revenant's anti-scaling capabilities. Plus everybody loves armor stripping and this would immediately increase his value to the team.


 Additionally perhaps it should be taken into consideration that Enthrall/Danse should instead drop some type of temporary buff for himself and his allies. Or Perhaps thralls killed turn into super charged pillars. or, or, or, the thralls themselves become super charged gaining damage reduction increased fire rate and damage stats comparable too your own weapons. But they die as soon as the duration of enthrall runs out and they lose the ability to enthrall. idk at this point i'm just throwing out ideas.

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Revenant is in my opinion a very interesting frame that just need that little 'extra' to hit home. 

Lets start with Enthrall.
In my opinion it's amazing right up till the point where the duration ends and all enemies just turns back to normal.
To fix that I suggest the ability makes use of the Devour mechanic of Inaros, but instead of dragging and draining the target, you instead drag it towards you and then pour sentient energy into the Enthralled enemy, reinforcing the link and extending the timer in exchange for an energy loss per added second (so it's less efficient than waiting and casting Enthrall again) Edit: You stand still during the process.

Next is the Mesmer Skin.
It's a great defensive ability that can give you breathing room when you're overrun by enemies or you're about to be oneshotted by a strong enemy.
Sadly it can't be recast before you're out of charges, which can leave you vulnerable after a fight that didn't use up all the charges.
To fix that I suggest we be allowed to again channel energy into our Mesmer Skin, using the Scarab Swarm charge mechanic for a substantial energy loss per charge (so it's less efficient than waiting and recasting) Edit: You stand still during the process.

Lastly is Danse Macabre.
This one is more simple, just allow the player to tilt the laser arm using the mouse, so we don't waste 70% of the damage by firing it into the ground.

Those were my 2 cents.

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Just now, hs0003 said:

This one is more simple, just allow the player to tilt the laser arm using the mouse, so we don't waste 70% of the damage by firing it into the ground.

This 100%👍👨‍👧

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I just don't see the point of enthrall myself. Enemies either die to fast or if you're fighting corpus they just nullify everything. Also i don't see anywhere in the current lore about eidolon's or sentient's having any form of mind control.

Mesmer skin should be changed to something better honestly.

Also i feel like i Have to have Natural talent like its required. I never felt like that with any of the other frames.

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20 minutes ago, Lancars said:

I just don't see the point of enthrall myself. Enemies either die to fast or if you're fighting corpus they just nullify everything. Also i don't see anywhere in the current lore about eidolon's or sentient's having any form of mind control.

Mesmer skin should be changed to something better honestly.

Also i feel like i Have to have Natural talent like its required. I never felt like that with any of the other frames.

if you read the wiki description he is also a warrior that uses sentient energy. his warrior part can be anything. also DE needs to be clear on describing things since people get the wrong idea or form expectations.

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42 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

if you read the wiki description he is also a warrior that uses sentient energy. his warrior part can be anything. also DE needs to be clear on describing things since people get the wrong idea or form expectations.

Yea but the issue is some thralls just run back and forth trying to find cover only for them to die shortly after. Solo its great but if you're on a team there is no chance to getting any thralls. His kit is cool. just unweldy feeling.

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17 minutes ago, Lancars said:

Yea but the issue is some thralls just run back and forth trying to find cover only for them to die shortly after. Solo its great but if you're on a team there is no chance to getting any thralls. His kit is cool. just unweldy feeling.

they are still working on AI (something that seems to be every game devs biggest problem since after F.E.A.R and HL2) im sure it will get better. imo i have never thought "man his kit is lackluster" because people feel differently about each warframe and how they play. honestly it might be about time DE stops making them and starts fixing issues in current ones and start optimizing factions.

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People are saying the Thralls die too fast, so I have what I hope is a couple of solutions:

1) Revenant can only Thrall 1 enemy.

So it doesnt become a Nyx copy, instead of making it immune to damage, it gets 90% DMR (will it be enough to stop it from being OHK? No sure) and that enemy will be the one who will infect the others.

2) Thralled enemies that are killed will leave the current energy field, but should Revenant have no more Thralls, the FIRST enemy to step on it will be thralled instead of damaged. Once he has that thrall, it will damage all others as normal.

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1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

they are still working on AI (something that seems to be every game devs biggest problem since after F.E.A.R and HL2) im sure it will get better. imo i have never thought "man his kit is lackluster" because people feel differently about each warframe and how they play. honestly it might be about time DE stops making them and starts fixing issues in current ones and start optimizing factions.

Yea but this has been a problem since nyx and nekros. I know DE has ALOT to do i understand that completely. I just think that they could disable toe cover seeking part of the AI when it comes to thralls and minions in general. They get amped up by the tenno but waste time looking for cover.

 

Again i love DE. They have done so much better then most other companies. I give feedback to them with kindness in mind because they treat us with kindness. They have my utmost respect.

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Warframes in 2018 = Primed Disappointment

Khora = Who?
Exca Umbra = no need to invest time, pretty much the same as Exca and Prime(If he was to be this bad why not release Prime instead?)
Revenant = No theme, no role, no use, to the fridge with Khora and Titania.

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Reworked Revenant Suggestions

 

Enthrall- Duration/Strength/Range Based Control 

Enthralls a single target who then spreads the Enthrall effect to other enemies through damage.

When Enthralled enemy dies, a spectre is summoned, similar to Vomvalyst. This spectre remains stationary and is immune to damage. Spectres attack enemy units with ranged lasers every few seconds until the timer runs out.

Spectres remain for half the time enthralled do, so at most if they die directly after becoming enthralled they remain as a spectre for half the time.

Spectres cannot enthrall through damage.

Strength Mods affect Spectre Damage 

Range Mods affect spectre and Thrall attack range

 

Mesmer Skin- Duration based Defensive 

For the duration of the ability, any enemies that hit Revenant are put to sleep and can be enthralled for free while Revenant takes no damage. Costs 5 energy per attack 

Recastable to replenish timer while still active.

Recasting this ability enthralls all enemies affected by the sleep effect.

Duration Mods Affect sleep effect

Efficiency Mods affect negation cost.

 

Reave- Duration/Strength based Self survivability Buff

Gain a lifesteal effect on all damage dealt by Revenant and his thralls/spectres, restoring health to Revenant.

Strength Mods affect Lifesteal %

 

Dance Macabre- Duration/Strength/Range based dps ability 

Convert all enthralled enemies to spectres- spectres remain for the duration of this ability but are destroyed at the end. 

Spectres are super charged and release a continual stream of laser energy attacks that adapt damage type to enemy type. Their attacks can be focussed on a single target by pressing 4 while aiming at the specific enemy the Revenant wishes them to focus on. Otherwise they focus on enemies closest to them and then moving outwards. 

When the ability ends, spectres are destroyed and converted into shields and over shields for Revenant. Synergises with 1,2 and 3 abilities

Duration Mods affect Duration

Strength Mods affect spectre damage and shield/over shield conversion

Range Mods affect Spectre attack range 

 

Retaliation Passive- 

When Shields are depleted, Revenant releases an irradiating burst that afflicts enemy units around the Revenant as well as smaller radiation bursts from any thralls/spectres. 5 energy is restored to Revenant for each enemy hit by this.

Potentially size of irradiating burst affected by Range Mods and Strength mods increase energy restored

 

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Was playing earlier and had an idea to improve upon his basic enthrall power.

In keeping with his sentient theme, the pillar from a slain thrall could spawn a vomvalyst (in energy form) that would be immune to damage, as they normally are, and draw some enemy fire; then dissipate after a set amount of time or utilizing its charge attack, the latter enthralling other targets or damaging existing thralls with a tick of damage equal to that of the pillar itself.

For the sake of gameplay balance -and maybe system performance- a global limit of like 3 or 4 (could be tied to the skill's rank) sounds fairly reasonable..? /:3c

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1 hour ago, Kaotyke said:

People are saying the Thralls die too fast, so I have what I hope is a couple of solutions:

1) Revenant can only Thrall 1 enemy.

So it doesnt become a Nyx copy, instead of making it immune to damage, it gets 90% DMR (will it be enough to stop it from being OHK? No sure) and that enemy will be the one who will infect the others.

2) Thralled enemies that are killed will leave the current energy field, but should Revenant have no more Thralls, the FIRST enemy to step on it will be thralled instead of damaged. Once he has that thrall, it will damage all others as normal.

Why not just force them to tag along revenant and shoot at whatever is an enemy and its infront of the crosshair?

It would be a mix of mirage, nyx and nekros.

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Okay, after testing him some, and checking out his kit, I have come to find that most feel lackluster and don't really convey the Sentient/Eidolon punch it could have. A real shame this concept wasn't pushed heavier, but I understand that at some point he was supposed to be a vampire frame. This just doesn't work, sadly. It leaves 3 lackluster abilites and one strong, and brilliant 4th.

Lets start off with Enthrall:

Enthrall is... it feels like a leftover from the vampire concept. It really doesn't offer much in battle. The stationary traps left behind by dying thralls are pretty well useless since you can't plan them well, and offer really little to combat. Thralls are just kinda meat shields, but are probably one of the least kind of meat shields among frames.

Enthrall feels more like a theme we'd use for, say, a Void/Corrupted theme frame anyways, not Eidolon. Really, if we needed a minion ability, why not have Revenant create something like Vomvalysts. Obviously they wouldn't have that second stage where only Void attacks kill them, OR maybe they do that and become suicide soldiers. Anywho, Vomvalyst buddies, they stand out from all other enemies and your comrades don't accidentally kill them!

Added effect, if there are active vomvalysts when downed, sorta similar to Inaros, Revenant will fall down kneeling, and the vomvalysts will rush to him, healing him for a % and reviving him. Give it a cooldown perhaps for balance. Something for survival that makes him feel like an Eidolon more, and makes his ability self sustaining to compensate for his squishiness.

Mesmer Skin:

Debating on this one but...

Lets face it, this is mostly like a lesser Shatter Shield. Why not make this a kind of adaptive DR instead? Maybe make it so instead of reflecting damage, make it shoot out sentient energy, akin to the vomvalyst blasts, targetting the shooter/attacker. Obviously you lose DR when the duration ends, but this would be something to save you in a pinch.

Reave:

This is tough, while in theory it is a good ability, but execution won't sustain you. This is also obviously a leftover from the vampire concept. The numbers overall are so low, even with thralls. Maybe make it so you consume your vomvalyst buddies for health/shields/overshields? One I'm not sure on.

Danse Macabre:

The one ability that feels fine. I can't say much on it because I think it already fits the theme and is a great CC damage ability, especially with that adaptive damage type. Versatile, broadly useful, and it feels like a Sentient/Eidolon ability.

Passive:

Boost this sucker, or make it the vomvalyst revival thing. Keep resistance to magnetic water, though, that's fine.

-----

Anyways, these were just some of my own thoughts/opinions. I think he's a great concept, just... the execution came out clunky.

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Honestly, I find the "vampire" theme tacked on to him to be entirely unnecessary.

Passive -> How about making the knockdown effect much larger (like the "energy spike" thing when fighting Eidolons), along with dealing damage based of max shields, including his last highest amount of overshields, if any? (This gives him a reason to stock up on Shields, something we don't have many Warframes do)

Enthrall -> To be perfectly frank, this is the only ability which really bothers me in his kit. It just doesn't... belong. I'd say, ditch this ability entirely. It's too vampire-like, and a waste of a more fitting Eidolon-esque one. Say, how about this:

  • Summon a Vomvalyst-esque minion, which basicly orbits you, attacking nearby enemies quite infrequently (using homing orbs a la Eidolons?), but with its main task of greatly aiding you with a shieldrepair. When Revenant is at full shields, the minion shoots more frequently, giving it a nice and natural synergy with Mesmer Skin (since it prevents damage, it allows you to repair).
  • Or how about this ability being that Revenant launches a straightflying orb which creates the thematic damaging pillars on its landing point (with shieldrepair for himself and allies when standing on it, and/or debuffing enemies in some way, like by slowing them down)? Could be castable during Danse Macabre.

Mesmer Skin -> Make each chargeloss grant 1 second of invulnerability, along with stunning all enemies near the attacking enemy (and the attacking enemy included, ofc), rather than just the attacker. Also, don't let overkill damage on him KILL him. It makes his defenses completely unscaling.

Reave -> Make it give a lot more shields to Revenant, regardless of who the target is, along with some flat damage done on enemies. If not given in some form for the first ability, this ability could also leave the damaging pillars in the dash's wake, with whatever added utility it could bring.

Danse Macabre -> Is fine, I'd say.

 

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20 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Why not just force them to tag along revenant and shoot at whatever is an enemy and its infront of the crosshair?

It would be a mix of mirage, nyx and nekros.

they could in light of that allow you to controll when enemies shoot. they shoot when you shoot and as you say at enemies in the crosshair.

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Although I already made a post with my feedback here, I do think the changes actually changed his feeling enough for another post to be warranted.

Passive: My suggestion from the previous post remains unchanged.

Enthrall: Okay, the QoL change that allows Thralls to be un-targetable by WF abilities and weapons with auto targeting is a pretty nice thing that actually more or less solves the main threat to Thralls; namely, Nuker frames. And having their cap increased to 7 is certainly and objective improvement as well. However, 7 is still far from enough. Like me and many others have said: 10 is merely the bottom line.

Though I do think that their immunity to nuker frames is sufficient enough protection for them without it becoming too invasive to other players. So actually a fairly nice balance on that front.

Still, I think that giving them an individual timer would actually be a fair change, since Thralls are actually surprisingly bad at afflicting other mobs. So this would maximize the time they're actually able to remain at their cap. I mean, while it's true that nukers are now a non-issue, your squad will often mow them down like everything else with their weapons, still. So giving them more ways to actually stick around seems only logical. Especially considering most of his synergies actually depend on his thralls.

Nor would increasing the number actually be able to render Nyx's Chaos obsolete. Enthrall has a AI dependent ramp up time and a hard cap, while Chaos instantly affects everything in a radius.

And another QoL change I'd like to see his that Enthralling another target while still at the cap simply removes the affliction from the "oldest" thrall, so you can always simply relocate the affliction to where you most need it.

My suggestions for the energy pillars are unchanged.

Lastly, I think that making killed Thralls drop overshield cores by default might actually make that feature useful. The thing with overshield is that it's only really useful when you can get it in a constant stream. Don't forget, there are a number of frames that have way easier methods of acquiring overshields, which is why it's actually useful in those cases. Be it Volt, Trinity or Harrow.

 

Mesmer Skin: The new audio cue when it pops is very nice. Actually fixes one of the biggest issue with it. So much in fact that it might not even need a gating mechanic outside of Danse Macabre (your normal agility is rather enough to let the ability stay active for quite some time, but Danse Macabre is a massive exception in that regard). While I'm at it, another idea for a gating mechanic would be to make the duration scale with the damage event that actually took the charge, or something. Think that might allow it to be balanced regardless of low or high level play.

Though I'd still like to see his current shockwave passive to be moved to the beginning of the animation. Heck, the range could even scale with the damage you're currently taking while casting it.

Lastly, I think that enemies that are capable of 1-shotting Revenant's entire EHP pool being able to comply bypass the ability is still an issue that needs to be looked at.

 

Reave: The visual update is definitely a very welcome change. However, it's only a visual change.

My old ideas for Reave remain mostly unchanged. However, I think that giving him the ability to regain energy for every enemy hit might still be a great thing, even without a reduction to the base cost. Though the numbers I'd suggest for his base cost are either 15 or 20. It would also make for another potentially great synergy with the increase to Danse Macabre's drain rate. Since, depending on how things are balanced out, would simply make him way more engaging to play, even with a Shooting Star focused build. You'd actually have to dash around the map the entire time, in order to mitigate the drain as much as possible.

 

Danse Macabre: Okay, first, allowing it to affect object health is an absolutely great QoL change.

However, the increase to his drain rate was actually a painfully unnecessary nerf. Yes, it was boring as hell to use. I agree with that. Heck, I even said that myself. However, you were at least able to get something out of it. Before, because the rest of his kit is just so unpolished, you would at least be able to shore up energy for his 4 and get some decent sustained DPS in return. Now? No point, really. It just runs out way too quickly. You basically end up only running him for his 2 and maybe his aesthetics, but that's really it. There are better frames for everything else he does. And even his 2 doesn't really save him, so you really only use him because you happen to feel like it.

Still, it's actually not all bad, since it least gave me an idea for how to make the ability more fun to use. And that is, actually the increase to his drain. However!!! The damage still needs to be brought up by an equal degree. Before, the damage/drain ratio was actually very fair. It's really just the onesided nerf that screwed it over.

Basically, by increasing the drain and damage by an equal amount, it actually makes the DPS of the ability more bursty instead of sustained, without actually losing any potential damage. This makes you use the ability in a more situational manner, the way you would Volt or Equinox, for example, instead simply set-and-forget, like you said. Remember, you did make a very similar change to Banshee's Sound Quake augment. And for the very same reason, even.

Next, I did mention earlier that overshields should drop from Thralls, period. That doesn't actually mean Danse Macabre is supposed to go without a unique synergy, however. Yes, I did see various people suggestion he'd get Mesmer Skin charge for using Reave on enemies and stuff. But I really didn't like it, because honestly, that's just way too overpowered. However, what if you'd instead be able to get back charges for killing Thralls with Danse Macabre? Moreover, make it so they only drop partial charges. So, like, each Thrall killed by Danse Macabre drops a 25% charge (for example), so you'd need to kill 4 Thralls with it to get a full charge, either as a reacquisition or potentially as even an additional charge. Which could, if necessary, be balanced by giving it something like a Bonus Cap, that scales with the base cap, instead of letting you gather charges indefinitely.

Additionally, how about letting you switch to a turret mode, by clicking the aim button, making you stationary while all the lasers focus onto your crosshair. So something like Mesa without the augment, but even more focused. So it's only truly useful for high priority targets. The beams still redirect the damage you take and adapt to enemy factions, just like before. The only addition being that it does Radiation damage against Eidolons, making it (finally) another ability that can actually be used against them. Moreover, considering his lore as the Eidolon Warden, I think it would really fit him thematically. It could, for example, be an remnant ability from before Revenant was actually transformed by that Eidolon soul. Like, he was a Warframe originally designed specifically to take on Eidolons or something. I think that would be really cool.

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