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[DE]Marcus

[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

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8 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

They didn't say that what they said was a fact, they're just expressing what they feel.

So it's just an opinion to counter an opinion here.

if you had read his post. he "wants attention brought to rev" even though DE already said they are monitoring feedback on him. then proceeds to assume people arent maining him already. he wasnt just speaking for himself, if he was he would have used the proper context and he didnt.

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33 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

if you had read his post. he "wants attention brought to rev" even though DE already said they are monitoring feedback on him. then proceeds to assume people arent maining him already. he wasnt just speaking for himself, if he was he would have used the proper context and he didnt.

I guess so, though the "MR fodder" part seems like an opinion on both sides.

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36 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

if you had read his post. he "wants attention brought to rev" even though DE already said they are monitoring feedback on him. then proceeds to assume people arent maining him already. he wasnt just speaking for himself, if he was he would have used the proper context and he didnt.

I think we can ALL agree that this frame anecdotally feels more controversial in terms of forum topics and community conversation around said frame.

I for one have been watching DE social media, and if I didn't know better, it would be easy to *think nothing was being done to address community feedback and concerns.

When you know the process and where to look, it can be an easy mental transaction to discount another person's unfamiliarity or lack of knowledge as something more than that it really is.

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13 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Umbras great.

and they will NEVER are release excal prime. He’s founders exclusive and should remain as such.

 

I said if they just make Umbra excatly like Prime whats the point? I was expecting more than just a specter.

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16 hours ago, xcenic said:

People Hype about the Garuda frame, and im just here waiting for another disaster.

Wait for 2019, the year of reworks.

2018 = better for weapons than warframes, more content to explore, more mission types. Its not bad but if they make a schedule of releasing warframes so bad why not just wait for more polishment? 

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1 minute ago, operational said:

I said if they just make Umbra excatly like Prime whats the point? I was expecting more than just a specter.

an upgraded excalibur that is strong against sentients? thats what we got. excaliber was the only frame that needed an upgraded version of some kind but couldnt get one because of the exclusive excal prime. what exactly were you expecting?

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Thoughts on the current discussion climate: lots of people are proposing that Enthrall be changed so Thralls are immune to ally (and sometimes even user) damage, but I feel there are some issues with that that most leave unaddressed. 

Firstly, there are basically two types of temporary minion in the game: ones that disappear when duration ends (Inaros, Nekros) and ones that turn back into enemies (Nyx, Nidus). Currently, the first type is always an ally, while the latter type always counts as an enemy for objective purposes (which opens them up for abuse in many scenarios such as Defense). However this seems like a necessary evil as there is an underlying assumption that fully allied objects do not ever turn hostile, and so since these enemies are allies only for a duration they cannot completely be considered allied. Whether this is design-only or relevant to the code as well (perhaps in some Quest that assumes all enemies are gone) I do not know, but I feel like it shouldn't be violated without real thought and reason behind it. For Thralls then, making them the first type is problematic because they are only temporarily allied and would violate the above assumption, but making them the second type introduces yet another frame that can grief other players, neither of which are strictly desirable (again, without further thought/justification put into it).

A second issue is the flavor: neither vampires nor Eidolons have inherent mind-control flavor. Of course Enthrall is something DE came up with themselves, but it is not strictly necessary for vampire flavor (which should be leeching like in Reave), and as pointed out many times encroaches on Nyx's territory. To preserve unique flavor then, suggestions geared towards creating a mind control fantasy like in the devstream (which making Thralls immune to ally damage is one of) then should think carefully about what makes them unique. 

One suggestion I'm quite fond of that I've seen pop up a few times seems to address these issues well is making slain Thralls create temporary 'ghosts' that function as allies for the rest of the Enthrall duration. While these are functionally still just minions (and will have gameplay overlap with Nekros/Nyx), it is safe both flavor-wise (Eidolon -> ghosts, parallel to vommies, or *-lysts and the main Eidolon body), and gameplay-wise (concrete distinction between 'temporary ally' and full ally, i.e. Enthralled enemy and ghost / mind control and shadows of the dead). Additionally it's a mechanic already basically present in the game with Ballistica Prime.

So far this seems like the most elegant way to buff Thralls while addressing the above issues, but surely it is not the only way, and I'd like to encourage everyone to take these issues into account more when giving suggestions as there are a lot of subtleties to designing this ability.

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@Airgetfrog Yeah I believe the "make thralls invulnerable" or "make them have DR to ally damage" will likely result in some bad unforseen consequences to gameplay.

At this point I'm just curious to see how it plays out.

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3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

if you had read his post. he "wants attention brought to rev" even though DE already said they are monitoring feedback on him. then proceeds to assume people arent maining him already. he wasnt just speaking for himself, if he was he would have used the proper context and he didnt.

I agree what i said was subjective. I know that they are monitoring feedback, i am just hoping that enough people bring enough attention to him so he can get a proper improvement. not something like "skill x now deals y more damage" cause to me and apparently mostly everybody else it seams that its not just the numbers making the frame look bad.

And i am a bit angry and disappointed that the last frame i remember that i played for a longer time and had a lot of fun with was harrow, which was around a year ago. 

Sure some people might main the rev, but to me currently, he does seam like a one trick pony. As in you just mod for his 4th or possibly for his 2nd, which to me seams like a generic defensive skill. And you just go around killing people like most of the frames do. Which is disappointing cause i feel the whole eidolon (or what the name of the race is) frame has a lot of potential for interesting gameplay. Gameplay that doesnt simply revolve around buffing the most out of the main DPS skill and just rolling with it.

So again, @EinheriarJudith my comment is subjective, but the thing is that a lot of people have their opinion on improving him, so its not just me who feels that something is wrong with the frame in the current state, and can do better.

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1 hour ago, Airgetfrog said:

~snip~

there is plenty of vampire material that suggests they are able to control peoples minds through their blood or through their eyes. there are also vampire material that supports them having thralls or as they call it ghouls which are the enslaved dead. enthral does fit the vampire theme and so does reave. mesmer skin is probably the only thing out of place in the theme as reave also mimics vomvalyst charge and DM mimics batalyst spinning laser of death.

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32 minutes ago, AoBaka said:

I agree what i said was subjective. I know that they are monitoring feedback, i am just hoping that enough people bring enough attention to him so he can get a proper improvement. not something like "skill x now deals y more damage" cause to me and apparently mostly everybody else it seams that its not just the numbers making the frame look bad.

And i am a bit angry and disappointed that the last frame i remember that i played for a longer time and had a lot of fun with was harrow, which was around a year ago. 

Sure some people might main the rev, but to me currently, he does seam like a one trick pony. As in you just mod for his 4th or possibly for his 2nd, which to me seams like a generic defensive skill. And you just go around killing people like most of the frames do. Which is disappointing cause i feel the whole eidolon (or what the name of the race is) frame has a lot of potential for interesting gameplay. Gameplay that doesnt simply revolve around buffing the most out of the main DPS skill and just rolling with it.

So again, @EinheriarJudith my comment is subjective, but the thing is that a lot of people have their opinion on improving him, so its not just me who feels that something is wrong with the frame in the current state, and can do better.

i am also one of those who say he could use tweaks. problem is when people get their own expectations in their head, everything be damned because it isnt what they imagined it to be. people wanted khora to have exalted weapon despite DE never saying she would. all his skills work the way they say and can be used in whatever you need them to do. how everyone feels about his gameplay mechanics will differ. not everyone is going to like whatever frame DE pushes out which is fine. they have plenty of options.

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now as ive been playing him on PC as of late id like to point out some constructive criticism to the current build

1- the increase to 7 is nice but allies kill enemies so fast it sometimes is pointless, maybe make the markers more visible or give them a glow effect

2- slow cast animation , not effective enough given its low counter to given enemies who shot multiple projectiles and swarm in 10+ groups

3 -slow cast animation - should give energy back or something as allies without shields just give hp and make it relatively pointless one could life strike for less energy cost to regain hp 

4- the energy cost is very noticeable, works better with a 1 enemy group now to make more residual pillars, still feels lacking in control with 3 use , maybe make 3 cast on 4 active less energy  

 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i am also one of those who say he could use tweaks. problem is when people get their own expectations in their head, everything be damned because it isnt what they imagined it to be. people wanted khora to have exalted weapon despite DE never saying she would. all his skills work the way they say and can be used in whatever you need them to do. how everyone feels about his gameplay mechanics will differ. not everyone is going to like whatever frame DE pushes out which is fine. they have plenty of options.

Devstream 100 (12:00)

Also Devstream 103 (48:20)

Just 2 instances I quickly found.

After the Damage 2.5 debacle they scrapped her exalted weapon as it was tied to the changes they wanted to make with Damage 2.5, but since it was almost universally disliked they made strangledome instead.

 

Back on Revenant, yeah I agree, having expectations is probably a really bad thing when things can be changed at any time in this game.

Heck, let's say DE decides to scrap thralls for something else since they saw it was problematic. I'm not sure how it would actually make you feel, but looking at this thread it would tick the people who liked him for that, same for the people who thought we would get an eidolon themed warframe. (Like me)

It's something we can't help and the only way I see to not have expectations is to not have interest. Which can be easy or hard depending on the person.

Also on the last thing you said. Reave also shares "synergy" (since it seems very forced) with thralls and it enables to damage/kill them in order to get the actual listed lifesteal in the UI.

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7 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

 

Heck, let's say DE decides to scrap it for something else since they saw it was problematic. I'm not sure how it would actually make you feel, but looking at this thread it would tick the people who liked him for that, same for the people who thought we would get an eidolon themed warframe. (Like me)

It's something we can't help and the only way I see to not have expectations is to not have interest. Which can be easy or hard depending on the person.

Also on the last thing you said. Reave also shares "synergy" (since it seems very forced) with thralls and it enables to damage/kill them in order to get the actual listed lifesteal in the UI.

i would be happy if they scraped him, cause that would mean they would...try to make him again? or at least note how to improve future frame ideas.

And i agree with the forced synergy, even when you do all the things you are suppose to do, you still gain like average benefit. You are better of just setting max duration and efficiency with a few sprint mods and just run non stop your 4th xD 

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Just now, AoBaka said:

i would be happy if they scraped him, cause that would mean they would...try to make him again? or at least note how to improve future frame ideas.

And i agree with the forced synergy, even when you do all the things you are suppose to do, you still gain like average benefit. You are better of just setting max duration and efficiency with a few sprint mods and just run non stop your 4th xD 

I made a mistake. My example was supposed to only be for the thrall mechanic, not the entire frame. (Post edited)

It was because I removed a sentence while revising my post before posting it.

I highly doubt they will drastically change him. 

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22 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

Devstream 100 (12:00)

Also Devstream 103 (48:20)

Just 2 instances I quickly found.

After the Damage 2.5 debacle they scrapped her exalted weapon as it was tied to the changes they wanted to make with Damage 2.5, but since it was almost universally disliked they made strangledome instead.

 

Back on Revenant, yeah I agree, having expectations is probably a really bad thing when things can be changed at any time in this game.

Heck, let's say DE decides to scrap thralls for something else since they saw it was problematic. I'm not sure how it would actually make you feel, but looking at this thread it would tick the people who liked him for that, same for the people who thought we would get an eidolon themed warframe. (Like me)

It's something we can't help and the only way I see to not have expectations is to not have interest. Which can be easy or hard depending on the person.

Also on the last thing you said. Reave also shares "synergy" (since it seems very forced) with thralls and it enables to damage/kill them in order to get the actual listed lifesteal in the UI.

whipclaw is still the same from dev stream 103 but without the damage change since 2.5 was scrapped. so by that standard landsilde is an exalted weapon and shattered lash is an exalted weapon. either way i apologize for my error.

if DE decided to scrap him i wouldnt be mad id be disappointed that they didnt stick with what they wanted and just improved on him (even though this is what they are going to do). i know ill get a free frame and new skill set. and even then some people will complain. as i said, his skills work for what they are intended to do. not everyone will like frames they release. some people still dont even like zephyr after they buffed her some dont like mag, some dont like ember, but what is clear about warframe is if you dont like them you have other options.

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On 2018-09-01 at 3:48 AM, SenorClipClop said:

I'm a little confused with the Abilities tab at the moment. The cost of Danse Macabre is 20 Energy per second, but putting on just Streamline drops that cost to 10/sec. Last time I checked, 70% of 20 isn't 10. I'm not sure if the value hasn't been changed against modded values with the latest update, or what. 

if hasn't been answered elsewhere... have you got any duration mods on, if you have they will also reduce the cost to run the ability. 

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IMHO, at the end of the day, you need to have a frame that the majority of the community is "sold" on to drive interest in farming AND in-game purchase of the frame because it has a clear-cut use/role.

Thinking ahead of Garuda, it's really important to me as a consumer (both in $$$ and time) that something I "invest" in—even for enjoyment—offers a viable return.  It would really suck, if Garuda surpassed Revenant by some considerable standard or metric despite alleged co-development—they should both be "good".

With all the great media attention this game has gotten in the past year (really starting with PoE), I feel it's in DE's best interest to ensure Revenant and every subsequent frame (including Primes) has *true worth.

*Viability across all content and the meta-endgame-that-really-isn't-true-endgame content.

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I'm writing this after the update that allowed seven thralls, up from four, on the 1; and increased the energy cost for the danse macabre 4 to 20 per second from 12.

  • I'm enjoying Revenant and appreciate:
    • being able to use the 2 to stun and then also get to cast the 1 at zero energy cost on the stunned enemies
    • being able to use the 4 as a 'get out of jail' card
    • having the Phantasma as a primary option (I favour energy weapons like the Arca Plasmor)
    • that the 'frame can be played solo successfully in situations with level 50 enemies
  • Areas I'd prefer to see looked at, please, are:
    • replace the current 3 - it just doesn't feel 'right' and it's not getting used
      • personally, I'd enjoy Revenant having an always-on pet Sentient, similar to how Khora has her pet kavat...
    • reduce the energy cost for the 4 back down a wee bit
      • split the difference between 12 and 20 and go for 16 energy cost per second and assess reactions, perhaps
    • have thralls die automatically, generating a light pillar, when the 1 on them ends
      • if not 100% of the time, then 50% of the time or so

If you do read this, DE, thanks for releasing the new 'frame and primary weapon. I find them enjoyable and that, ultimately, is what I look for over 'meta'.

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On 2018-08-26 at 11:42 AM, ShinTechG said:

XPEZByk.jpg

Chroma that have elemental damage type based on their energy color was a much better implementation in my opinion.  👍

 

well no his was terrible and it used a passive that didn't need to be a passive (look at equinox for example whos color is also based on abbility.) aslo energy color based damage type has allways been a terrible idea. fashion frames a thing and a very big thing i might add. and its unfair to the player if they can't use the colors they spent hours working to prefect on there warframe because lol fire chroma in  grineer level.

also chroma is a very lack luster frame. he lacks flair. he is undermined once again by having a passive that has no place in beening a passive. the Revenent skill is honestly how chroma should work

now that i as a formor chroma main. (before he was made redundent, by all the new frames that does what he does but better. then was hit upside the head by a unjust nerf bat to his armor scaling) have that off my chest.

back to the Revenent.

 

 

thrials are basicly dead weight. the reason nekros, nyx work are because

nyx's mind controled minion can't be killed by players and is not a wast of energy and her chaos is an aoe and not single target skill.

nekros minion also can't be killed by players which again deosn't make it a dead weight skill.

the thrials die so fast in pubs you might as well  spend all game just using 4 since thats the only abbility your going to get anything out in pubs.

sure you can argue thrails are supose to die, but not before they atlest build up to max thrails.

 mesmer skin is also very badly implmented. i wouldn't hate it if it wasn't costly for being a long casting time and only for a limited shots that any small group of grineer can destory faster then you say "But i just turned it on." and honestly if i were to be so bold.

the best way to change this skill and make it feel like it still fits. is if after you used up all th stun charges you gain bonus defense to the damage type you were hit by. for a limited time you know like every other seintent in the game.

Reave has the potential to be good, but again since it mainly hinges on thrails your not going to get much use out of it.

 

danse macbre. leave this one alone its fine where it is. honestly the only problem i see is that i am not overly fond of the ballet dance animaction 

 

 

 

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Yeah, uhm... The long weekend of "analyzing player feedback" is over, where's the hotfix to return Revenant's 4 to a decent state?

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14 minutes ago, PraetorGix said:

Yeah, uhm... The long weekend of "analyzing player feedback" is over, where's the hotfix to return Revenant's 4 to a decent state?

The time of analyzing is over (maybe?), the time of testing and deliberating changes is now.

Wensday is usually hotfix day, tho they can delay it till thursday like last time.

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7 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

The time of analyzing is over (maybe?), the time of testing and deliberating changes is now.

Wensday is usually hotfix day, tho they can delay it till thursday like last time.

I’m not sure if they would bring the new Login Reward System or Elite Alerts with his Hotfix because they already showed the Elite Alerts in A DevStream and login Reward changes in the Dev Workshop.

 

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On 2018-09-02 at 10:40 PM, VieuxPappy said:

You're either a bad harrow or play against enemies with lvls so low that you never actually need to use any abilities to survive as harrow. Chaining a whole corridor of enemies is near instant and, even if the enemies are killed right after, you already got the benefits of your 1, where as with Rev's 1 works only on one enemy at a time and takes longer to cast. What is the point of having "minions" if they do no damage and get instantly blown by teamates before they can spread the enthralling? 

About your "oh but I get shinny useless pillars and I'm cool with it", well we're happy for you if you're so simple. For the rest of us, we know the pillars do pitiful damage (even at 200%+ str) and are only useful if you micro manage and kill your thralls in tight corridors or doorways which is too much work for it's worth. Spending 25 energy for a decently nice looking (but useless) pillar is stupid and any player looking to maximize Rev's energy effectiveness will simply not bother with it. I hope you get that, as you said. 

Right now you sound like a jealous kid that is afraid Rev gets some (needed) love because his shiny Harrow didn't get what he personally wanted.  Finally, you're not DE so stop assuming. There's almost 50 pages of players,like me, that see the multiple issues (such as thralls being vaporized way too quickly in non-solo games) that Rev has... if DE are competent and care they will listen to the majority. 

I'm not Digital Extremes nor have I suggested I was. There are many frames in this game that need attention and yes, Revenant is one of them.

EDIT: I removed most of my comments from this thread as my own feedback wasn't altogether useful - That said unless I have useful feedback for Digital Extremes/ The Warframes Devs I won't contribute to back and forth between users. It's not only useless, but unproductive - insult me as much as you desire but all you're doing is wasting time and steering away from the purpose of this thread and diminishing any resulting changes it may lead to. As I was emotionally investing my own frustrations here inappropriately I've been going through my posts and removing them as needed.

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