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[DE]Marcus

[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

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I'm staying on my position. Rev' kit is OK, but the ability themselves all have some defects. Main issue being the Thrall 

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How are people saying stuff like "Rev is basically perfect" and then in the same post say "but I only use 2 of his abilities, usually just the one though... and I dont even notice the passive". This is not one particular person, but many people on here and on Reddit.

Pointing out faults constructively is not being mean or not supportive of DE. the only way you're going to get the situation better is by being honest... which begins with being honest with yourself. You don't get a prize for putting up with a half useless frame.

 

I'm not expecting an entire overhaul (cough, remove danse macabre, and put in something that actually fits, currently it is a thin justification for the rest of his kit, cough), but I am curious to see what direction they take him. 

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The easiest way to fix the thrails getting killed by teammates would be to give the thrails a grace piriod form damage maybe five or  ten seconds.

i still think mesmer skin should allow you to gain bonus defense to the damage type you were hit by. for a limited time.

 

thats about it for the main problems with this frame. 

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So, I've been playing around a bit with Revenant after his 23.6 changes, and while there is progress, I think there's more that could be done.  I rather like him, but I feel like he's missing some of his potential, so I'm going to do my best to try to keep my suggestions as changes to the stats of the abilities without changing their core functionality, as I think that the core functionality of Revenant has a lot of potential.

Passive: I can't actually speak much about this, as I haven't had my shield broken very much while playing as Revenant.  Which, in turn, may be indicative that his passive could be changed to be more useful, though I don't know what that change would be.

Enthrall: The ability that Revenant is built around...and also the one that allies can almost completely negate.  That said, it's kind of fun to get your own squadron of enemies built up.  7 is a good number, though it still can still feel a little low.  But the big problem is that your thralls will often die before they can infect other enemies in a team setting, which means that all the synergies that Reave and Danse Macabre have with them will hard to pull off. 

To this end, I propose that any thrall directly Enthralled by Revenant can only be hurt by Revenant, but infected thralls can still be damaged by allies as well.  This way, Revenant can keep a thrall or two safe from his own allies, so that he can more effectively and continuously infect enemies and make more of those damage pillars.  At the same time, allies won't have to worry about too many invulnerable enemies getting in the way of their space-ninja murder sprees, especially since the main purpose of a thrall is to be killed and turned into a damage zone.  A few smaller changes that would also help Enthrall would be bumping up the thrall cap to 8-10 (the more the merrier), and making thralls immune to radiation procs.  It's no fun when your mind-controlled puppets suddenly turn on you because you're using the radiation-heavy high status weapon that comes paired with Revenant

Something I'd love to see, but don't expect, would be Enthrall being permanent on Vomvalysts, and Enthralled Vomvalysts not counting towards the thrall cap.  Would just be a fun little way for Revenant to bring something interesting to Eidolon fights.

Mesmer Skin: I like this ability a lot, but it's still rather underwhelming.  This is Revenant's defensive ability, what keeps him alive, so a base 6 charges feels a little low.  As many others have said, this ability can run out of juice pretty fast when faced with a crowd of Grineer, Corpus, or Corrupted, so it needs a little bit of help.  To this end, I propose two options:

1. Double the base number of charges up to 12 at rank 3.  The reason Watchful Swarm works so well on Amesha is because it has a good base number of charges, and many AW enemies can't hit the broad side of a Fomorian.  Mesmer Skin has to work with the more accurate normal enemies, so bumping up the number of charges would help a lot.

2. Give a 1 second grace period every time a charge is used.  During this period, no enemies are stunned, no charges can be used, and Revenant is immune to all enemy attacks (damage reflection can stay on, it doesn't do much anyways).  This would reinforce Mesmer Skin as a defensive ability, and make Mesmer skin a much more viable option for keeping Revenant alive.

Mesmer Skin has a couple other, more mild issues too.  It would be helpful of there was a visible bolt of sentient energy from Revenant to the enemies stunned, or some similar effect, to make stunned enemies easy to notice and Enthrall.  I'd appreciate it if it worked properly, and the harpoon attacks of Ancients and Scorpions didn't inflict a knockdown on him when he's supposed to be status immune.  The fog effects result in some mild visibility issues, and start making me feel a little unwell if Mesmer skin is on too long.  And last, rather subjectively, I don't like the casting animation for Mesmer Skin.  It just...doesn't look right to me for a defensive ability.

Reave: What is this ability for?  If it's a mobility tool, the delay at the start and the relatively slow speed of it makes it too clunky and slow to use effectively, and 75 energy is too much for a mobility tool.  If it's a survivability tool, charging directly towards enemies while fully vulnerable is never a great plan for that.  Especially since the only way to regenerate shields, the bulk of Revenant's durability, is to Reave shielded enemies, which only reliably exist in one faction.  If it's an offensive tool, then the damage it deals is awful for a 75 energy ability when Reaving enemies that aren't Enthralled when we play a game with inexpensive % health damage abilities like Smite and Undertow.  While synergies are nice, an ability, especially an expensive ability like Reave, needs to be able to stand on its own to be valuable.  And why are so few of its stats affected by mods?

So, there are two paths that I think could be taken with Reave.  The first is to turn it into a mobility tool.  If that's the goal, then turn it into Tidal Surge.  Reduce the energy cost to 25 or 50, greatly reduce the casting delay, and make the ability have a unchangeable duration of 1 second (it can still be cancelled out of, it just will last 1 second without further input).  Duration, instead, affects the movement speed of Revenant while he is Reaving.

The second, and preferred, option is to try to make it an effective mobility, offensive, and defensive tool worth that 75 energy cost.  This would require more changes, but probably end up making a much more enjoyable to use ability.  Still make the casting delay shorter, though, since that long delay before moving makes the ability very unwieldy.  I'd also suggest making the size of Revenant's wave affected by range mods, and the damage/healing effects affected by strength mods.  Then make it so that both shields and health are recovered from each enemy hit, regardless of whether or not the enemy has shields (or health, in case we ever get a shields-only enemy).  And make Revenant invincible while Reave is active, so that he doesn't lose as much health and shields as he gains while using it.  Then, boost the damage/heal on non-Enthralled enemies to 15% at rank 3, and reduce the damage/heal on Enthralled enemies to 30% at rank 3.  This makes it so that non-Enthralled enemies are worth Reaving without having outrageous power strength, Enthralled enemies can't be one-shot by Reave even with outrageous power strength, and it's better to Reave thralls than non-thralls.  With these changes, I think Reave would become a powerful tool for damage and healing for Revenant, and worth using at its high energy cost.  That said, even with all these changes, reducing it to 50, or making it so that Reaving thralls gives some energy back, would be nice.

Danse Macabre: I don't really know what to suggest here.  The ability isn't inherently bad, and it's currently the only ability Revenant has that brings real value to his team, but at the same time, it is exactly the kind of ability that DE seems to dislike, so I don't know why it was chosen in the first place.  The very nature of it invites a press-4-to-win, AFK style of gameplay that DE has been at war with for a while.  The energy changes to it do hurt that gameplay style, but the changes also hurt any other gameplay style that wants to make use of Danse Macabre.  I really think this ability needs to be rethought in a more significant way than the intention of this feedback is (keeping the core function of the ability the same), so, while I will try to suggest improvements, I do think this ability needs a serious look to be turned into something that's both more useful and more in keeping with DE's vision for Warframe.  It's basically a mobile version of what Peacemaker was when Mesa was released.  And changing the energy cost won't change that.

So, what can be done?  Uh, maybe making the beams' vertical angles match the aiming reticle's vertical angle, so that Danse Macabre can hit enemies higher or lower than the plane Revenant is on?  Like I said, it isn't a bad ability so much as it is a problematic ability, and I'm afraid I don't know how to solve the problems without integral alterations to the ability.

Also, just a little heads up.  I built all 3 Revenant parts between the first excursion wearing the mask and my second excursion, so I did the second and third encounters in the same excursion.  And I never got the third codex lore fragment as a result.  Hopefully this bug got fixed, but, if not, I'm sure other players would like to see it fixed.

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I think in Titan Quest, your permanent summons ate up a % of your total mana.  So if you had summons up, you crippled your mana pool.

What if Thralls were immune to friendly fire, but each Thrall ate up X or X% of your total energy.

Most #1 abilities are meant for cheap direct damage and/or an easy introduction to a full kit; thralls just seem out of place on the ability hierarchy.

I'd have to inquire about the back-end code side of the ability, but it just seems incredibly complicated and code intensive vs. smite/decoy/landslide/etc. in terms of end results.

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Other teammember need a feedback about Revnant's Enthrall skill, because if it runs out, 6 member elite group turns against them :awe: and they know nothing about when! 
So the enthrall sign above them should be blinking or something, so they have time to kill them. Or simpler solution: If Revenant cast Enthrall on other enemy, it will refresh the timer on other captured enemies, so Revenant should select which enemies need to keep, like a vampire lord...

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40 minutes ago, antiqwiz said:

Other teammember need a feedback about Revnant's Enthrall skill, because if it runs out, 6 member elite group turns against them :awe: and they know nothing about when! 
So the enthrall sign above them should be blinking or something, so they have time to kill them. Or simpler solution: If Revenant cast Enthrall on other enemy, it will refresh the timer on other captured enemies, so Revenant should select which enemies need to keep, like a vampire lord...

Thats a great idea, amen. xD similar issue was with the nyx mind control. When the duration expires and the bombard you were controlling a moment ago start killing ya all xD 

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Clarification on the post title This is in response to statements that anyone not happy with revenant just wants a press 4 to win mesa.

First off: I do not want whoever designed Revenant, Reb, Steve, whoever, to feel put out by the community's collective 'meh.' Revenant has had a very rocky development cycle so his kit needing love and attention shouldn't be taken as a sign we the community personally don't like what is there. I personally like Revenant's kit and see a lot of potential there but at the same time dislike it because as it currently stands his 4 is his best ability by far and last week's tweak only did a minor minion limit increase and turned his 4 into the most expensive channel ability in the game. I feel that bares focusing on. Here is this fun channel that has an amusing animation and is self-limiting ranges due to how the beams are angled so can't map nuke' and.... in the face of his entire kit needing help that was the one thing that got done. Making it the most expensive channel in the game and chiding the player base about press 4 to win.

I feel that was a fairly major and massive misstep and caused feelings of animosity towards people I personally don't want to feel anything but respect and admiration for.

I Oberon A Lot, which should be clear from my reddit tag. this colors my perception and outlook. I see Revenant as a potentially other 'ok this is somethign I could recommend for any mission type if some tweaks and changes were made.'


Bugs: Not an all-encompassing list.

Reave goes where the warframe is pointed rather than where the camera is pointed, making aiming somewhat difficult.

Please check nullifier interactions with mesmer skin as rounds fired from a nullifier consume mesmer skin charges, still hurt you, and do nothing to the nullifier. That last is a non-issue since a nullifier should be safe in the bubble. However a charge being consumed on an attack that still hurts me is somewhat annoying and more than a touch concerning.


Personal Suggestions: I do not speak for the community please understand these opinions are my own.

Thralls: I'm not on board with thralls having invulnerability. Having a spread mechanic so the thrall state spreads to another enemy for the remainder ofthe duration would potentially fix this without making it an overpowered cc ability since there's still an upper limit, a duration, and it's more or less to mitigate the fact in a team setting thralls don't last long while still making him diffrant than nyx's pure chaos/single minion control, and nekros's 'i have an army.' Unsure what is planned for pillar changes but having it mes/draw enemies in might be helpful as continued cc/ low-level damage.

Mesmer Skin: Greater visibility on frame that it's active along with faster cast speed would be good. Having it recastable would make the issue of charges a moot point since an attentie player can keep charges up.

Reave: I HATE the idea of using reave on thralls to replenish mesmer skin because that is the same forced dependance school of thought that went into oberon (I am still not hapy about oberon's kit depending on his 2.) This is even worse since those thralls could die fast and in a hurry before you get a chance to tank up. This also has a problem of Revenant's 3 replinishes mesmer skin, which is awesome, but you can't make new thralls in revenant's 4 which apparently is hated anyway because press 4 to win (so why does this exist?)

Instead, reave should allow you to go up/down while cast instead of ground-hugging. This lets Revenant get in interesting positions without having to hot swap to operator form.

Dance Macabre: I like this ability. Frankly I'd suggest rolling back its cast costs to what it was at launch and making it an ability you can't move unless you hold down the fire button (effectivly givng a cost penalty for movement.) This means revenant players can either eat a higher channel cost to top spin around the map, Reave to move from place to place with your self turret of doom, or exit the ability.

Passive: Either increase the distance it affects enemies (out to 11.5 meters)

or

The first time Revenant walks through a thrall pillar of light gives 10 energy or 10 health (whichever is lower). Combine this with revenant having a way for thralls to spread gives Revenant a way to self-sustain and grant survivability to an otherwise squishy frame.

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They are still working on Revanant with feedback. Energy drain rate on the ult and cap on the thralls were extremely simple to do as they are just value changes.

His kit actually isn't that bad in the right situations. Just needs some tweaks in some places like a change to AI on the thralls to make them more consistent with attacking enemies (for some reason they shoot at me and my companions which I don't understand), and they need to reduce the cost of reave. Its so heavy a cost for an escape. Powerful effect on thralls though. Very easy to severly hurt heavy targets, even bosses.

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This increase energy usage is incredibly annoying for danse mecabre

 

It became impossible to use revenant during a low energy mission even with flow and 175% energy reduction

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29 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

They are still working on Revanant with feedback. Energy drain rate on the ult and cap on the thralls were extremely simple to do as they are just value changes.

His kit actually isn't that bad in the right situations. Just needs some tweaks in some places like a change to AI on the thralls to make them more consistent with attacking enemies (for some reason they shoot at me and my companions which I don't understand), and they need to reduce the cost of reave. Its so heavy a cost for an escape. Powerful effect on thralls though. Very easy to severly hurt heavy targets, even bosses.

ther'es a reason all of my suggestiosn are tweaks on what is there rather than 'gut replace' why is it nobody here or on reddit can see I'm just calling for tweaks?

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Just now, MarrikBroom said:

ther'es a reason all of my suggestiosn are tweaks on what is there rather than 'gut replace' why is it nobody here or on reddit can see I'm just calling for tweaks?

.... I was agreeing with you?

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Just now, Omega-Shadowblade said:

.... I was agreeing with you?

A. Sorry. It looked like you weren't. My bad. 

Looks-wise I like revenant. I love his shotgun. He has a lot of potential and he'sfun in bursts, but i just see how you could make his kit better. I mean... thoughts n my balance idea of his 4 to avoid top spin nuke everywhere all map?

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@[DE]Rebecca

PLEASE stop being so obsessed and focused about reave and thralls, the first thing that REV's needs is a fix to mesmer skin, because hits dealing higher dmg than REV's total EHP ignore all the stacks , as well as nullifiers lanka shots, add a 3 secs grace period between the consumption of a stack and another ALA Health Conversion armor stacks mechanic.

As per this Thralls first ability the only useful thing that can be done is to change the way they die, so they explode in a 15m radius dealing as DMG a % of healt/shield/armor of the enemies hit ( ACID SHELLS anyone ), and reave is such a poor ability that could just be trashed and redesigned already...

This frame has nothing exciting let alone the feeling of a sentient based frame, you could have expanded his Sentient/Eidolon theme in so many ways rather than giving him an economy version of one of Nyxes abilities and a 3rd that's just a copy cat of Hydroid 2nd in a different pixellation lmfao.

Reave is really a waste of an ability slot and for the love of your dear community, scrap and stop focusing on those pitiful Pillars of light upon Thrall's death, the inconsistency of placement since there's no way to control it, makes it already a useless gimmick.

So far 2018 confirmed as the year of poor warframes that not only are underwhelming but they don't even have a decent Identity and i'm not holding my breath about Garuda whose theme is gonna be a copycat of Valkyr for the most part

 

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1 minute ago, MarrikBroom said:

A. Sorry. It looked like you weren't. My bad. 

Looks-wise I like revenant. I love his shotgun. He has a lot of potential and he'sfun in bursts, but i just see how you could make his kit better. I mean... thoughts n my balance idea of his 4 to avoid top spin nuke everywhere all map?

I had a different thought process on his 4. To encourage moving around instead of map sweeping by remaining in place, he has his lasers locked to a shield bubble like the Gantulyst. In exchange for the now loss of range, he uses the shield to reduce incoming damage from outside the bubble. This makes it a support ability by shielding allies, but also encourages actual moving play by making sure you have to stay mobile if you want to kill everything with it.

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10 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

I had a different thought process on his 4. To encourage moving around instead of map sweeping by remaining in place, he has his lasers locked to a shield bubble like the Gantulyst. In exchange for the now loss of range, he uses the shield to reduce incoming damage from outside the bubble. This makes it a support ability by shielding allies, but also encourages actual moving play by making sure you have to stay mobile if you want to kill everything with it.

I like that. Make the shield dome have something like the combined health of all the enemies inside of it. 

I like it but that would encourage 'press 4 to win' behavior as the devs call it. Which is weird given they made the ability in the first place and now act all sneery/disgusted players use it. wat?

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Just now, MarrikBroom said:

I like that. Make the shield dome have something like the combined health of all the enemies inside of it. 

I like it but that would encourage 'press 4 to win' behavior as the devs call it. Which is weird given they made the ability in the first place and now act all sneery/disgusted players use it. wat?

Well that's the thing. High damage and Damage reduction from far off enemies but keep the channeling rate high so it costs a lot for mobility. As it stands currently, even with the increased cost and a heavily reduced range build, you can still sweep an entire room from one spot. The idea of this ability is to correct that to a small field of death with high cost but many uses tactically.

The ability design is a bit weird in the first place, but I do like the idea.

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19 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

A. Sorry. It looked like you weren't. My bad. 

Looks-wise I like revenant. I love his shotgun. He has a lot of potential and he'sfun in bursts, but i just see how you could make his kit better. I mean... thoughts n my balance idea of his 4 to avoid top spin nuke everywhere all map?

*facepalm* 

 

Agree about Revenants potential.

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Would be great if his  Enthrall worked on Vomvalysts and they help do dmg eidolon shields and maybe even canel out specific abilities /casting animations

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Would be great if his  Enthrall worked on Vomvalysts and they help do dmg eidolon shields and maybe even canel out specific abilities /casting animations

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Would be great if his  Enthrall worked on Vomvalysts and they help do dmg eidolon shields and maybe even canel out specific abilities /casting animations

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Wait. What? (Re: Reb's twitter)

The Community: Reaving needs to be more versatile. It's too low powered and should work better across enemy types. It costs way too much energy. Tons of suggestions.

DE: You can Reave allies now!!!

WTF?!?!?!?!?

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making one of the thralls invulnerable to ally damage would greatly improve the power (doesn't matter if you increase the thrall cap if allies can kill them all before it can spread)

giving him tools to restore mesmer skin charges would be nice, EG stand in a thrall's death fire to consume it to add to mesmer skin and reave thralls thralls to restore charges
and would make for a better synergy than mesmer skin making enthrall cost nothing

reducing some of the cast times would smooth out his gameplay

 

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7 hours ago, (PS4)TheRallykiller said:

I think in Titan Quest, your permanent summons ate up a % of your total mana.  So if you had summons up, you crippled your mana pool.

What if Thralls were immune to friendly fire, but each Thrall ate up X or X% of your total energy.

Most #1 abilities are meant for cheap direct damage and/or an easy introduction to a full kit; thralls just seem out of place on the ability hierarchy.

I'd have to inquire about the back-end code side of the ability, but it just seems incredibly complicated and code intensive vs. smite/decoy/landslide/etc. in terms of end results.

No, permanent summons only cost alot of mana and have a long cooldown. It doesn't cap your energy. Capping comes from permanent toggle buffs, like the "add fire damage to weapon" sort of skill.

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