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[DE]Marcus

[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

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On 2018-09-04 at 11:56 AM, EinheriarJudith said:

an upgraded excalibur that is strong against sentients? thats what we got. excaliber was the only frame that needed an upgraded version of some kind but couldnt get one because of the exclusive excal prime. what exactly were you expecting?

Oh wow he is not strong against sentients(which are 1% of the enemies we met) his mods are. Also, why just change his stance in Exalted Blade to a nikana or IDK change something, I liked the howl how he was before the buff, simple but useful, yea strong against sentients but all operators do the same thing. Exca Umbra just takes Exca to trash lvl because, WHY WOULD YOU HAVE THE 2?

Waiting Mag Umbra so Mag prime will be just mastery fodder.<<<<<Thats my complain.
Khora and Revenant = Mastery Fodder

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12 minutes ago, operational said:

Oh wow he is not strong against sentients(which are 1% of the enemies we met) his mods are. Also, why just change his stance in Exalted Blade to a nikana or IDK change something, I liked the howl how he was before the buff, simple but useful, yea strong against sentients but all operators do the same thing. Exca Umbra just takes Exca to trash lvl because, WHY WOULD YOU HAVE THE 2?

Waiting Mag Umbra so Mag prime will be just mastery fodder.<<<<<Thats my complain.
Khora and Revenant = Mastery Fodder

radial howl resets their resistance. he currently is the only frame to have slots whose polarity fit those mods because he was designed to use them and they make him...... strong against sentients. how much of the game sentients take up is irrelevant. stronger stats than excal, radial howl resets resistance, while in operator mode can do things on his own. that is an upgraded excaliber. so again my question is (since you havent answered it) what were you expecting it to be?

i dont share your opinion about khora or revenant but aint nothing wrong with that.

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Revenant feels like it's doing things it's not supposed to do. This new Eidolon better do the Mutalist Alad V thing and cause us to attack each other or i'm gonna be mad.

Revenant is "based off" the eidolon... so how about making him based off the eidolon? (i know! such a concept).

How about we revamp Revenant entirely, because lets face it, the only thing he does that makes you think "EIDOLON" is when he presses 4.

PASSIVE: Gains 5 Overshield per second

1st ability: Moa stomp; cause a shockwave with a 360 radius effected by duration similar to Nova's MP and range effects how far the enemies are tossed, enemies take damage based on how far they went, and if they hit a wall, objects are destroyed when an enemy hits any. OR just make it similar to Banshee's 1 but a 360 radius that only effects enemies touching the ground.

SECOND ability: Teleport; Not Teleport as in Ash's teleport, more of a phasing type teleport. Effected by range this ability will send you a random direction however far your power range is onto a "solid" part of the map, including up or down as long as players are meant to be there.

3rd ability: WHALE!!! Revenant sends out 3 bursts (increases with duration, effected by range) which magnetize the area, each enemy hit restores 20% of his health and if health is full starts giving shields and oversheilds. (eventually there would be an augment so this ability strips enemy armor).

4th abilty: Lasers of doom, stays what it is right now.

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4 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

as i said pet/ally arent DPS skills, but are utility skills. resonator is every bit of a utility skill people dont use resonator to do damage they use it to move mallet around since that is one of its purposes like any utility skill.

mind controll is not used to make 1 enemy kill its used to make one enemy the target of attention, and to remove a dangerous enemy from play.

shadows of the dead is not used to kill enemies. it used to provide away to protect necros and the team by providing targets for the enemies to concentrate on.

enthrall isnt used to deal damage it is used to distract or remove dangerous enemies.

same with devour sand clone, same with effigy, pretty much same with all pet/allies.

The mallet does significantly more damage with the roller. This synergy between moves is the reason why Octavia is the dominate endgame frame. The mallet is the resonators weapon in a way so this bleed over of damage makes her shine. This is the kind of thinking that would increase the effectiveness of every other frame. Not really here to debate whether his zombies should do damage because that's not what this forum is about but either way if you can't get damage right with a single ability maybe it isnt a bad idea to incorporate another ability into the mix instead of just following this formula you've pointed out.

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4 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

as i said pet/ally arent DPS skills, but are utility skills. resonator is every bit of a utility skill people dont use resonator to do damage they use it to move mallet around since that is one of its purposes like any utility skill.

mind controll is not used to make 1 enemy kill its used to make one enemy the target of attention, and to remove a dangerous enemy from play.

shadows of the dead is not used to kill enemies. it used to provide away to protect necros and the team by providing targets for the enemies to concentrate on.

enthrall isnt used to deal damage it is used to distract or remove dangerous enemies.

same with devour sand clone, same with effigy, pretty much same with all pet/allies.

also I appreciate your debate btw seeing how people look at the state of this frame has refined my argument. I'd also urge you to answer Rallythekillers questions regarding why the zombies can't do damage. People don't feel that mesmer skin or the zombies are providing enough utility or damage mitigation so maybe they can be redeamed by adding another function like damage. Also if I'm not mistaken khoras cat have a damage mode (I dont have her so excuse me if I'm wrong).

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On 2018-09-02 at 7:51 PM, EinheriarJudith said:

go to lua fight some sentients and you will see them spinning with lazers. its like people have forgotten that lua existed before PoE.

they have a dedicated, static spinning animation that is not ridicolous. The thing i dislike is the warframe's body animation, not the power mechanic or light effect

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6 minutes ago, jalen961 said:

also I appreciate your debate btw seeing how people look at the state of this frame has refined my argument. I'd also urge you to answer Rallythekillers questions regarding why the zombies can't do damage. People don't feel that mesmer skin or the zombies are providing enough utility or damage mitigation so maybe they can be redeamed by adding another function like damage. Also if I'm not mistaken khoras cat have a damage mode (I dont have her so excuse me if I'm wrong).

i was reading what i wrote and thought to myself while these abilities are great at distraction they are kind of bland in that. ive been playing warframe for too long lol. some spice could be added. i think not having shadows of the dead deal killing type damage makes it so people dont rely on it. a problem ive seen steadily increase with time is that people have become to reliant on powers.

Edit: one thing i actually like about destiny 2 is that you cannot rely on the guardian powers. thats where it ends though. gameplay is good but everything else is bad lol

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7 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

radial howl resets their resistance. he currently is the only frame to have slots whose polarity fit those mods because he was designed to use them and they make him...... strong against sentients. how much of the game sentients take up is irrelevant. stronger stats than excal, radial howl resets resistance, while in operator mode can do things on his own. that is an upgraded excaliber. so again my question is (since you havent answered it) what were you expecting it to be?

i dont share your opinion about khora or revenant but aint nothing wrong with that.

 why just change his stance in Exalted Blade to a nikana or IDK change something

He is Design to use the mods but EVERY WARFRAME CAN do it, as you said, improved exca, I dont like that, He is a great character overall I do like Exca, but in a cold review, he is just an upgrade not a entire new warframe or concept. I did put my suggestions to fix this design issue I ll summarize for you:

*Different Stance on Exalted Blade.
*Delay on Howl was for the best.
*Similar 1 and 3 but not equal.(1 = a big swing in front of him; 3 = Crowd Control Repeling enemies[just ideas])

My tough is that Umbra and Normal Exca should be a little different, Im just thinking, WHY someone who bought Excal Prime is feeling now because his Prime is worthless.

About Khora: She has a great design but lackluster skills, her pet shouldnt be a skill, he just need to have special moves too, her 4 is just.... baaad. She is a cat themed warframe why making her a tank/control? why not just give more mobility skills, maaaaaybe a transformation. (Check for Bayonetta Panther Moves)

About Revenant: He has nothing special and the only good skill of his set is just boring. For a sentient themed warframe i was thinking about Ethereal Form(not tidal wave like he is now), Lasers, much more lasers, but at a righter cost and charge time for a big SHOoPDAWhOOP in front of him. His 2 is just, meh, could be better for a defensive hability and his mind control is buggy, i would like better if he summons specters of dead enemies like nekros. Overall, Revenant isnt a Sentient warframe nor a vampire, Inaros is the true vampire.

 

Sorry dude I dont wanna bother you anymore with my opinion is because I lov this game and I want to make it better and better so my negatives are for the best, I am a player and if I dont like to play anymore Im just not being useful for DE, and I love DE Staff and how good the community are.

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Revenant can be killed by toxic ancients while mesmer skin is active when they do their one shot kill "roar" attack. Seems like a bug so I'm posting it here.

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I just got in to check what's in the update to find out there are still no changes to Revenant. And to add insult to injury, the supposed tweaks/fixes they announced via Twitter have nothing to do with improving Danse Macabre again. I'm so pissed off at how they laughed at every people who took the time to post in this thread the past week... 

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24 minutes ago, --Chubbs-- said:

Revenant can be killed by toxic ancients while mesmer skin is active when they do their one shot kill "roar" attack. Seems like a bug so I'm posting it here.

That is probably one of those enemies that can damage him over his EHP while having Mesmer Skin on. Ballistas and Hyeeka Masters can do the same.

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6 minutes ago, PraetorGix said:

I just got in to check what's in he update to find out there are still no changes to Revenant, and to add insult to injury, the supposed tweaks/fixes they announced have nothing to do with improving Danse Macabre again. I'm so pissed off at how they laughed at every people who took the time to post in this thread the past week. 

To me it means they are taking more time to think about the changes and actually consider what was said here rather than just gloss over everything once and make some changes as soon as possible.

The first changes were done in between some devs being on vacation and them preparing for PAX. So that was likely a rush job.

What we get next will likely either be the last set or pre last set of changes Revenant will get, unless there is massive outcry for further changes that is.

 

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I think Revenant is in an overall bad spot right now

My complaints are listed first and then I will list my Ideas to solve the issues will be next(keep in mind I am NOT a game designer, but I have put in as of this comment nearly 945 hours on record)

Enthrall: It suffers from the same problem every minion ability suffers from, which would be the lack of aggro pulling and lack luster utility or damage

Mesmer Skin: Its lack of gating and ability to be eaten through nearly immediately leaves this ability on the cusp of being useless for large hordes, which is the overwhelming majority of the games content.

Reave: Its too expensive to be a movement ability and its ability to drain Health and Shields is utterly useless in the fact that if you are using Mesmer skin and it runs out at higher levels the minuscule amount of health and shields it supplies it not going to save you.

Danse macabre: I have few issues with this ability other than the over-shields you get from thralls you kill suffer from the same problems Reaves shield replenishing ability has(being useless at higher levels that is)

Now for my suggestions for solving some of these issues

Enthrall:Make killing them with Danse macabre restore a fraction of a charge for Mesmer skin

Mesmer Skin: Give a few seconds of Invulnerability in between each charge so they aren't used up too quickly

Reave: I would suggest giving this ability a cost reduction and trade Hp and Shield leech for restoration of charges for Mesmer skin

If anyone from DE reads this. Thank you for the stellar game and I do Implore you to listen to some of my suggestions.

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6 hours ago, --Chubbs-- said:

Revenant can be killed by toxic ancients while mesmer skin is active when they do their one shot kill "roar" attack. Seems like a bug so I'm posting it here.

Mesmer doesnt defend against anything what is not directly attacking a player.

Grenades, flame patches, stomps, whatever unless its directly aimed at you with no aoe part it wont save you.

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Time is ticking and if DE goes with their usual update patterns the next patch for revenant will be the last one to bring in any buffs/nerfs.

Anything else might be bug fixes and others but no more skill adjustments will come.

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hace 7 horas, Madway7 dijo:

To me it means they are taking more time to think about the changes and actually consider what was said here rather than just gloss over everything once and make some changes as soon as possible.

 

 

Nice thinking in that optimistic way but if they could "gloss over" Danse Macabre in a hotfix they very well could have done the same in this scheduled update to, at the very least bring it back to where it was. Then they can take all the time they need to tweak to their heart's content. 

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If you hate the synergy of Danse macabre + Rage + Reave, just make it won’t use Reave when toggle Danse macabre, not to burn out crazy energy to toggle Danse macabre.

That crazy reaction only drive us to use Rage or Adrenaline, and this completely against to free modding.

Do you understand? You make Revenant can’t be used without Rage!

Is this the best? Really you believe the 40 energy per sec is your best reaction??

There were some updates recently. So the 40/sec is your best answer?

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1 hour ago, PraetorGix said:

Nice thinking in that optimistic way but if they could "gloss over" Danse Macabre in a hotfix they very well could have done the same in this scheduled update to, at the very least bring it back to where it was. Then they can take all the time they need to tweak to their heart's content. 

I suppose they could have, but they do have a tendency to ignore changing anything until they agree on everything they want to change.

Seeing what they did in the first change makes me think that they don't want Dance Macabre to work the way it is at all. And what we got was a rushed ability with some goofy aspects to it.

For now I'm trying my best to be optimistic. If the next set of changes are bad I will likely go back to being bitter.

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logged into warframe and seen the update in cert on the screen as usual when new updates come out. the sad part is I completely dismissed it this time I wonder why  🤔😕hopefully the changes that have been suggested for the better are implemented I mean saving 325 maybe even, more for the bundle  plat is always a good thing if it doesn't turn out to have changed for the better 👍

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Le 04/09/2018 à 19:53, nokturnihs a dit :

I already edited my feedback throughout the entire thread. You are right I'm incredibly sensitive about being questioned for my intelligence because of my past, the disabilities I've overcome and the fact that my livelihood is made because of my intelligence and capabilities as an IT professional and Developer. I was being melodramatic and off topic. 

I have done my own testing and had differing results but we were obviously playing with different builds, play styles and things like Arcanes that obviously changed those outcomes. I built him more around his 2 with guardian derision and arcane guardian and grace and it quite effectively for CC. 

I  have edited the reply you quoted to try and worked to resolve my failings in the topic thread. I do admit that I was insulted by your tone because it frankly wasn't helpful and was rude. I don't understand why it was necessary or what prompted you to believe it would produce any kind of merit to the feedback thread or my response. I had edited my feedback BEFORE your reply so please don't assume your latest response had anything to do with that.

I'm going to work to be more effective at providing on-topic useful feedback to the developers and stop inappropriately directing my commentary to the community.

I will also append that the initial thread you replied to, where your tone upset me was due to similar insults from a previous user and my feedback was colored badly and soured by my outrage, thus I removed it. 

Respect to you, and sorry to hear about your hardships. 

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On 2018-09-06 at 5:23 PM, EinheriarJudith said:

i was reading what i wrote and thought to myself while these abilities are great at distraction they are kind of bland in that. ive been playing warframe for too long lol. some spice could be added. i think not having shadows of the dead deal killing type damage makes it so people dont rely on it. a problem ive seen steadily increase with time is that people have become to reliant on powers.

Edit: one thing i actually like about destiny 2 is that you cannot rely on the guardian powers. thats where it ends though. gameplay is good but everything else is bad lol

I agree that with you there. Shadows doing all the killing would take it out of your hands but I think that disappears for endurance runs where I think it's the most fun. With that being said I guess I would also be contradicting my playstyle since they never scale well into endgame. So if you haven't already maybe try getting into that if you havent already. Yoir weapons really carry you and your abilities can compliment them if you pick a good frame (volts a really good one actually).

To tie it all in back to the original point of this thread id like to also see some scaling for rev into endurance content. Contrary to my original post I actually think his first ability is pretty good for that especially with his radioactive weapon for that extra CC. Reave with natural talent also does pretty well but his other two abilities leave something heavely to be desired. His fourth especially with just get you murdered past level 80 and the damage isn't conparable AT ALL to Mesa's.

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Friendly Warframes should not be able to kill thralls. Only friendly operators should be able to do this.

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I've been thinking of Revenant, my problems and problems I think others have with him and how I think they can be addressed/changed in more or less reasonable ways.

I'm a big lover of games in which you have armies (red alert type) or just a small supply of minions (Overlord) to mess around with to do your bidding, so I would have thought Revenant might have become my new main but like many others agree, his power fantasy falls short and people quickly realised his best ability is his 4th. I believe his 4th should be more or less an emergancy ability kinda like Rhino's 4th, it's there if you need it but shouldn't be considered a frequently casted ability.

The biggest problem is his thralls. Teammates can kill them within seconds and they don't really do much besides follow you around unless you pick specific enemies to enthrall like an ancient or shield osprey which are faction specific. Another concern I've had but not got around to testing is the idea he's a bad pick for Defense as thralls might prevent the next wave from starting.

Perhaps his minions need friendly fire invulnerability like Nyx's 1st (storing damage but not taking it until it runs out) or at least a nerfed down version of it. Nothing more annoying than making a thrall only to die within a second. Alternatively thralls killed by teammates might drop something that awards the Revenant such as energy orbs equal to power used.

 

Regardless, here's where I want to get into how I really think his thralls should change.

I believe his thralls need to recieve buffs while under his control, even the low tier grunt enemies like grineer butchers should recieve something worth having. I'm not going to say they should oneshot lvl 150 corrupted gunners because I think that's stupid.

My idea is to add something like Ivara's Quiver or Vauban's balls, except instead of changing the ability it would instead focus on changing the state that your enthralls use.

1. A simple defending/hold ground mode

While in this state, thralls (who can) will seek cover if possible and try to hold down the area, defensive area is "chosen" based on where your Revenant is upon engaging this mode.

Thralls in cover will recieve a damage reduction or enemy accuracy decrease and a very minor health regen, will fire at enemies from around cover and attempt to throw grenades

Thralls without cover will have slightly increased health (10%, 20%) based on power strength and increased enemy detection/reaction time (think of it like rambo)

If the defending area has an alarm console nearby and an active alarm/lockdown thralls may attempt to hack it (similarly to Nekro's shadows of the dead as I've seen them do this)

Faction specific enemies like grineer will attempt to board Rampants if possible

This is ideally meant as more of a suppression mode

2. Following

Thralls will follow Revenant, this mode will be considered the most "cannon fodder" mode, enemies are less likely to target Revenant and if they do will instead aim at his thralls.

Thralls will recieve an aim penalty if moving while firing.

3. Patrol

Thralls will act more like enemy AI, wandering around and doing their own thing while during combat.

If no alarms are raised and enemies aren't alerted they can freely walk past non-enthralled enemies and not raise any suspision (this would give a fun mode for stealth gameplay), if the player or another ally is detected nearby thralls won't be and will attempt to stay icognito, if close enough to an alerted enemy they may attempt to enthrall them through non-loud means such as a gun bash or hack the alarms but can be spotted while doing so revealing all thralls to the enemy.

This mode might be considered the default state when jumping into a mission with Revenant

Even in combat some thralls may attempt to hack the alarms while in this state.

4. Berserk/Reckless

In this mode Revenant memetically fills thralls with adrenaline.

Thralls will be seen running/sprinting at the enemy

Thralls will abandon all regard for their own safety, increasing combat skills such as reload speed, fire rate and walk/run speed or attack speed if they are melee oriented, they may even throw grenades while running

This will push thralls to their biological limits, even if not taking damage they will slowly lose health due to exerting their bodies.

Thralls cannot be disengaged from this mode, once activated this will be a thralls permanent state until death, but the mode can be switched out to another and convert more thralls to a different state while this is still active, the thralls currently berserking however cannot be changed.

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5 hours ago, sorcer3r said:

Friendly Warframes should not be able to kill thralls. Only friendly operators should be able to do this.

This...this is a good point. Thralls should poof into a spectral form when dealt enough damage, if they are in spectral form when the duration ends...they die, unless someone goes operator mode and kills them(if they die this way they should also drop the overshield charge by the way). Also, the thrall pillar damage should be X+%HP, and maybe make it into a pulse(Like the eidolon roar). The basic idea is...Thralls die too fast(mainly due to team mates) So I never get to make use of the overshield charge they die from Danse Macabre.

Also, Reave needs...a lot of work. First off, why am I taking damage while I'm a cloud of mist? Secondly, why am I getting such a low amount of HP back...(Wiki stats its 8% per enemy) and IMO Reave should be "Does X damage+%EnemyHP to enemy, Restores X% HP and Shields" instead of needing an enemy to have shields to restore them and if you do it on a thrall you then get Energy.

Finally...Given the recent Nezha change, I'm going to propose that Mesmer Skin gets reworked to function similarly. % damage reduction for X duration(Refresh duration by using Reave) instead of being charged base. Keep the immunity to procs and the stun, ect, but just remove the charges for a pure duration time and have Reave refresh the duration. Why do this? Cause so long you keep mesmer skin up you never have to use reave. You can out right ignore it.

Danse Macabre is...fine, aside from not understanding what range does on it.

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All I know is that I absolutely hate it when other players jet around hacking down my thralls. I would really appreciate it if the thralls were made to be invincible to friendly fire. Otherwise I like your idea and I think it would be helpful to make the thralls more controllable than what they currently are. 

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