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[DE]Marcus

[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

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7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

It's been like that since the beginning.

Has it been? I was pretty sure that teammate revenant in Mot axi fissure nuked the original 4 thralls i had back then ūü§Ē

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4 minutes ago, birdobash said:

Has it been? I was pretty sure that teammate revenant in Mot axi fissure nuked the original 4 thralls i had back then ūü§Ē

That's probably because Revenant is designed to kill Thralls...

But yes, I noticed it in a survival with a Frost who liked Avalanche on day one.

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8 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

That's probably because Revenant is designed to kill Thralls...

But yes, I noticed it in a survival with a Frost who liked Avalanche on day one.

Never realized, ok this post just became invalid!ūüėāūü§£ūüĎć

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Some updates to my thoughts on Revenant:

I just learnt you can cancel Reave with another press of 3 while it's in animation. However, the full cost of energy still applies, whether you travel 40 meters or 5 meters! Cost for Reave should be placed as a duration-based drain that drains more the further you go, so you only get charged full energy for going the whole length, 50% for going half the length and so on.

Also to repeat myself I need to emphasize the point that Reave needs a slightly faster cast animation (Mesmer Skin too) if not a slight energy cost reduction. At this point it feels like a clunkier and more expensive Hydroid Tidal Surge even if it does have its own perks (Tidal Surge could also benefit to have this duration-based drain while we're at it).

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Simple solution to any pet frame. DON'T make them, clearly. AI in this game is hilarious, and it doesn't even bother to do what it is supposed to do, so yes, no use for any kind of pet frame. It was long back with NYX, but hell (no one plays Nyx, right?), then we had our pet doggos and katz, but who cares, they are dumb and get locked in anything these days. Now we have Khora, with her own pet to get stuck to whatever sticks out of the ground (impenetrable PoE stones and grass ftw), and now, we get mind controlling Revenant, which is also close to being forgotten, by how stupid his thralls become as soon as he possesses them. Yay. 

Rework PET AI, this is a very major step for this kind of frames to actually have any meaning in a game about mowing hordes of enemies. Else, it's just another MR fodder which will be fun for a while, and then left out of general use, and worshipped by a mere 1% of players who actually can stand issues with those frames.

For the specific issues, almost all had been said, 

1 - clunky, slow, thralls die too soon in non single game, those beams are well, silly.

2 - chips off way too fast, needs more stacks or grace period, and for the love of whatever, why do you punish players with animations?

3 - too slow, again, animation sucks, wayy too unbalanced in terms of movement, when packed with duration becomes almost non usable because you are stuck in animation for hours (ok, seconds, but, feels wrong)

4 - bayblade frame with issues. Again, you allow other abilities to have "unlimited" access and when it comes to aoe uncontrollable spin frame, you limit it totally with not only obstacle check, but also range/height check. Great. But, not really.

Passives in this game are long but forgotten, as they do literally nothing, except for Mag, because self vacuum is always great and should be on every frame doing bullet jumps.

 

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4 minutes ago, youssefhashab said:

Just give me more minions or more lasers thats it

How about putting lasers on the minions? That way, when Revenant starts a thrilling dance his minions join the fun! And how about Revenant actually dances during Danse Macabre while lasers sweep over enemies with his every movement instead of just... spinning right round like a record?

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This thread actually feels pretty pointless. The alterations they’re going to make are that reaving through allies with Mesmer skin active will give them an as yet un named buff. So a frame that was only really viable in solo is now getting a synergy that will only function if his terrible defensive is active while he goes through allies who will justifiably never stay still in a fast paced ninja mobility game and will probably have just killed your thralls a second after you made them. Asking for a lot of goodwill from players DE.

Who asked for this?

Also how do his powers relate to any of the lore he has?

He was infected with sentient tech after fighting a tentacle eidolon alone for presumably centuries and none of his kit is even remotely helpful against eidolons.

Ps. I use zenurik mixed with 207% duration,¬†130% efficiency,¬†a maxed prime flow and the Rakta dark dagger. With all this, I barely noticed the increase in his 4 cost, but the energy isn‚Äôt the problem. The problem is that it‚Äôs a terrible boring ability that people have described me as the ‚ÄėNew Limbo Eye Cancer‚Äô. Changing the cost was like putting a band aid on a fractured skull.

Never thought I’d say this but  even Nezha’s abilities (Rework looks good for trap frame) were never so fundamentally flawed and lacking in fun as this new frame.

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After some real thorough Rev playtime this past weekend, the ability that really bothers me is ENTHRALL.

There's a duration, thrall hp, friendly-fire damage, ability virality and it's his #1...

I think if the ability hierarchy is switched so Mesmer is #1, Reave is #2, and Enthrall becomes #3 I would feel better about suggesting some meaningful changes like:

  • No friendly fire
  • HP scaling based on mission level (it doesn't matter much because the AI is, well...lacking)
  • No duration in lieu of using a % of your energy pool to maintain.
    • if you drop to 0 energy, the thralls disappear

I personally feel like Rev was sold by Rebb on his Enthrall ability coupled with the insanity of Reave, and durability amidst the chaos with Mesmer.  Danse was just a show piece.

I spent hundreds of hours (like many of you out there) grinding this game.  And now working full-time (and then some) plus having kids has empowered me to open my wallet for frames like Limbo Prime, and presumably, for Revenant...

But if this frame doesn't get the DE love that other dev favorites do‚ÄĒespecially after all the great news coverage, praise, and promises‚ÄĒI think it'll make consumers like myself a tad apprehensive.

And, maybe most importantly, this frame is a part of the crown jewel that is Fortuna (along with Garuda and Railjack‚ÄĒyes, I know it's not all in the same update).¬† Revenant is part of the ongoing vision for the game, and it's important from a marketing perspective (as well as a game culture perspective) to make each frame valuable as we approach 40 frames and beyond.

Start making sub par frames now, and that'll hurt the culture that surrounds this community.

But that's just my opinion.

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9 hours ago, Xyhon said:

Passives in this game are long but forgotten, as they do literally nothing, except for Mag, because self vacuum is always great and should be on every frame doing bullet jumps.

...or they're horribly inconsistent in terms of quality.  IMHO Ash, Excal (Umbra included), and Nekros have some viable passives.  As DE adds more frames I think at some point passives will need to be readdressed for long-term viability and balance.

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Thematically speaking, the sentient-infected warframe doesn't feel very... sentienty.  His fourth ability and some of his visual and audio effects do, but gameplay wise?  Hardly at all.  The whole mind control thing would be more in-line with an Orokin-themed warframe since the towers have that neural defense system.  ...honestly, if Revenant had been an Orokin (tower) themed frame, his skill set would be more or less perfect.

 

I know skill changes are unlikely, but if I could have anything...  I think he'd need more boomy, blasty, lasery abilities like other sentients use.  And his passive or 2 could be some brand of damage adaptation some sentients have.

 

It's also really weird that the, lore-wise, "anti-eidilon" frame is bad at fighting them.

 

Focusing on skills, keep in mind I'm going by what I've seen and read in-game.  I've not looked up detailed interactions on the wiki or anything.

 

Passive -  I've... never really noticed it?  Also, Revenant's high shields suggest slotting mods like Redirection to make them even higher.  But you want to run out of shields to trigger the passive.  His stats clash with his passive here.

 

First -  As many have said, Enthrall is pretty useless in a group setting.  Removing dangerous enemies is nice and its cool it spreads.  But most of the time, thralls just get mowed down, sometimes even by myself since I fail to notice the thrall in the crowd.  Most of my experience with this ability is either removing a foe from the fight until they die or my friend playing Revenant complaining constantly in voice about people slaughtering his thralls.  It feels like a weird hybrid of Nyx's Mind Control and Chaos, but falling short of both at the same time.

 

Second -  Ehhh... lack of duration is nice for pre-casting, but charges run out fast in combat.  Kind of a meh defensive ability.  It needs at least recasting and some way to easier pick out first ability vulnerable enemies.

 

Third -  This ability is just... bad.  The heal is minor for the energy cost unless you hit lots of dudes or manage to track your thralls down.  You also can't control the distance, so you can fall short of foes or go sailing off into the distance.

 

Fourth -  Expensive, but really cool.  The spinny animation is a little silly, but the ability is the highlight of the kit.  And apparently thralls killed with this drop something?  Dunno, never noticed.

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3 hours ago, Hearsay said:

Fourth -  Expensive, but really cool.  The spinny animation is a little silly, but the ability is the highlight of the kit.  And apparently thralls killed with this drop something?  Dunno, never noticed.

If you killed the Enthralled with Danse Macabre, the Entralled enemies drop OverShields.

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18 hours ago, AbsolvedJudas said:

This thread actually feels pretty pointless. The alterations they’re going to make are that reaving through allies with Mesmer skin active will give them an as yet un named buff. So a frame that was only really viable in solo is now getting a synergy that will only function if his terrible defensive is active while he goes through allies who will justifiably never stay still in a fast paced ninja mobility game and will probably have just killed your thralls a second after you made them. Asking for a lot of goodwill from players DE.

Who asked for this?

Also how do his powers relate to any of the lore he has?

He was infected with sentient tech after fighting a tentacle eidolon alone for presumably centuries and none of his kit is even remotely helpful against eidolons.

Ps. I use zenurik mixed with 207% duration,¬†130% efficiency,¬†a maxed prime flow and the Rakta dark dagger. With all this, I barely noticed the increase in his 4 cost, but the energy isn‚Äôt the problem. The problem is that it‚Äôs a terrible boring ability that people have described me as the ‚ÄėNew Limbo Eye Cancer‚Äô. Changing the cost was like putting a band aid on a fractured skull.

Never thought I’d say this but  even Nezha’s abilities (Rework looks good for trap frame) were never so fundamentally flawed and lacking in fun as this new frame.

well don't¬†hold ur breath the goodwill is almost never done ,they really kinda just do what they want,people don't¬†even think they play their own game¬† and with the recent frames ,fixes,nerfs,buffs its certainly showing , I honestly don't have any hope for garuda or any other frame going forward¬†if these are the frames they are gonna be pumping out for the future of this game , I've¬†never seen this much backlash on a frame in forever I'm very disappointed and saddened,¬†when the alert for the cert came in on console I honestly looked for about 2 seconds and went about my business, hype for console release is null and void as I know the needed changes won't be being implemented anytime soon or even at all.ūüėē

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I'm enjoying him so far, but the mesmer skin is blinding. I don't know if its meant to use energy colour but mine certainly never does. It is consistantly a grey mist that is really hard to see through when Im running. Im running into things constantly. My energy colour is purple or mint, the mesmer skin "mist" has never been either of those colours.

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5 minutes ago, Zanchak said:

I'm enjoying him so far, but the mesmer skin is blinding. I don't know if its meant to use energy colour but mine certainly never does. It is consistantly a grey mist that is really hard to see through when Im running. Im running into things constantly. My energy colour is purple or mint, the mesmer skin "mist" has never been either of those colours.

I'm having the same issue the mist is just obstructing vision not sure if it's intended or a bug some of the mist that envelopes him bears you energy color while most it doesn't, hopefuly the extra mist effect that doesn't bear your energy color gets removed.

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17 hours ago, VPrime96 said:

If you killed the Enthralled with Danse Macabre, the Entralled enemies drop OverShields.

Which is, unfortunately, useless.

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1 hour ago, VPrime96 said:

With Mesmer Skin, it is.

Even without Mesmer skin it is useless. 

50 overshields per pickup is completely useless. Given the general complexity of how this generates overshields compared to literally any other frame that generates overshields it is -completely- useless.

Other frames can give max overshields without any thought. Revenant gives a measely 50 per pickup through a 'synergy' combo with his abilities. A combo that has another synergy that completely undermines the overshields altogether (mesmer skin making enthrall free, but getting overshields out of this is pointless).

 

I'm not sure who the mastermind was behind his kit but it is a serious case of "works well on paper but is an absolute mess in reality"

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Just had an odd issue on a Kuva survival, where my thralls would keep attacking me, using up Mesmer Skin, getting stunned. If I used 1 on them again, thewy would 'wake up', attack me, and get stunned again.There wherer no radiation procs involved in this.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

Even without Mesmer skin it is useless. 

50 overshields per pickup is completely useless. Given the general complexity of how this generates overshields compared to literally any other frame that generates overshields it is -completely- useless.

Other frames can give max overshields without any thought. Revenant gives a measely 50 per pickup through a 'synergy' combo with his abilities. A combo that has another synergy that completely undermines the overshields altogether (mesmer skin making enthrall free, but getting overshields out of this is pointless).

 

I'm not sure who the mastermind was behind his kit but it is a serious case of "works well on paper but is an absolute mess in reality"

My idea for it made it better, but in general I'm confused as to why DE hasn't realised that without DR shields (and overshields) are worse than health.

My idea was passive changed to damage reduction to shields and Mesmer Skin only applies to health damage. Current passive triggers when Mesmer Skin runs out of charges.

But I guess we'll have to see what DE does to him this week.

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Mesmer skin needs to instant cast or the cast needs to be faster. The smoke effect it has on it needs to be toned down A LOT or an aura effect needs to be put in place for it. The current smoke aura it has right now for it or whatever you want to call it make's it hard to see where I'm shooting or even going.

 

I like the enthrall it's a cool idea. But the enthrall itself in group play isent as effective. Like if controling areas or certain points or higher level enemies yes it does it's job but not for very long. The after damage pillar it brings with it isent that big and dosent do a whole lot of damage unless you build for it and even then it's not that great. It's good but not great.

What would be nice to change for enthrall is make the first enemy you enthrall let's call it the main host or whatever. Make that one immune to your damage and ally damage specifically till the times up. This way you can get more thralls going with more damage pillars out there till the times up. The damage pillars should get a lil more love. The damage should be increased lil more since it's last ability got smacked hard and has a large cost. The range of it should be a smidge bigger and there should be anexplosion chance or synergy with it to enthrall more. Or perhaps even take the Shield drops from the 4th ability and put it on a chance drop when enemies are killed by the pillars.

 

The 3rd ability needs to be faster. And perhaps leave and sentient field behind where you traveled. Potentially enthralling or sapping health from enemies walking through it. It also needs to be tad wider. I also saw some thing about Mesmer skin being applied to allies with this ability? If you've passed through them they could possibly get benefit of a certain % through the sentient field idea to gain hp back. 

 

The last ability. I'm sorry but I laugh every time I see the spinning rave top. It's a cool idea. But it could be changed to a more focused laser ability or maybe have it active turn on and off button to shoot lasers at incoming enemies at X amount of energy cost.. or change it to the teralyst scream or whatever it does when you make it mad to 1 shot everybody lol. Just a nuke skill. Either that make it a teralyst cry where those lil sentients follow you around doing damage for you.

 

The frame itself is "okay" right now but the synergy between skills and fixes to how they work and how the work in group play would really change it. I can see it being a cc dps frame. It just needs more synergy. Without it being awkward.

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2 hours ago, Madway7 said:

My idea for it made it better, but in general I'm confused as to why DE hasn't realised that without DR shields (and overshields) are worse than health.

My idea was passive changed to damage reduction to shields and Mesmer Skin only applies to health damage. Current passive triggers when Mesmer Skin runs out of charges.

But I guess we'll have to see what DE does to him this week.

Meaner skin working when taking health damage is genius and actually makes his whole kit more relevant without changing much of the original moveset. 

 

But overshields pickups still would need some kind of buff. To 100 per pickup would be a lot better with the scenario you presented.

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Maybe DE won't do any drastic changes to Revenant's kit but I will share my ideas anyways.

I tried making his thralling process easier , giving him a more thematic passive and making him respective to his lore.

Spoiler

I also love Infamous 1 / 2 / Second Son and noticed that Cole & Delvin's abilities have similarities with Revenant & Eidolons' ( Dashes , draining enemies , homing projectiles , lasers , explosions etc ). So I used some ability GIFs to visually explain abilities.

He might be OP but numbers etc can be tweaked and balanced.

PASSIVE

Spoiler

" Hardened Shields "

  • Revenant's shields take 50% less damage , including his overshields.

" Warden's Burden "

  • Revenant acts like¬†an Eidolon Lure,¬†can link to 2 destroyed Eidolon synovias¬†in affinity range to prevent them from teleporting away.

ENTHRALL

Spoiler

Cast Energy = 25

  • Revenant¬†releases his Sentient energy onto an enemy target within a range of 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 meters, converting it into a Thrall that is forced to fight for the Tenno cause¬†for¬†15 / 20 / 25 / 30 seconds¬†( can be¬†used for single-handedly getting rid of special enemies ).

Hold Energy = 50

  • Revenant summons a bloom on targeted location ( similar to Hydrolyst's Vomvalyst Blooms ) for¬†5¬†/ 6¬†/ 7¬†/ 8¬†seconds¬†and¬†has 9¬†/¬†10¬†/ 12¬†/ 15 meters¬†radius. Bloom turns closest¬†6 / 7 / 8 / 10¬†enemies into Thralls for¬†15 / 20 / 25 / 30 seconds¬†.¬†If a thrall dies, another enemy in bloom's radius will take its place.

Thralls take 90% less damage from teammates.

Thralls leave damaging pillars that deal 250 / 500 / 750 / 1000 Puncture b Puncture + 3% of their max health damage per sec on death. Pillars last for 10 sec and have 2 / 3 / 3 / 4 meters radius.

Synergy ;

  • Thralls killed by¬†Danse Macabre grant 100 overshields to Revenant and his allies.
  • Essence Reaver¬†'s leech / restore percentages increase to 15¬†/ 20¬†/ 25¬†/ 30% against Thralls.

MESMER SKIN

Spoiler

" Abyssal Shroud "

Cost = 50 energy

  • Revenant shrouds himself with protective sentient energy,¬†blocking 3 / 4 / 5 /¬†6¬†¬†attacks to his health¬†and stunning the attackers for 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 seconds. When charges¬†depleted , Revenant screeches and¬†emits a radial energy wave that stuns enemies for 3 sec in 15 meters radius.

REAVE

Spoiler

Cast Energy = 50

  • Revenant transforms into a torrent of Sentient energy, dashing forward to aim reticule for 0.25 / 0.5 / 0.75 / 1 second while enveloped in an energy current with a width of 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 meters. Enemies passing through the current are drained 2% / 4% / 6% / 8% of their¬†maximum shields and health, while Revenant restores 2% / 4% / 6% / 8% of his maximum shields and health¬†from each enemy leeched.
  • Drained enemies are slowed down by¬†15¬†/ 20¬†/ 25 / 30%¬†for 10¬†seconds.
  • Revenant is immune to damage during¬†dash.

( Dash visual can be similar to GIF below , current one kinda looks ugly )

giphy.gif

Possible augment ;

Essence Reaver - 

  • Revenant¬†leeches¬†2% / 4% / 6% / 8% of his enemies'¬†maximum shields and health¬†while restoring his¬†2% / 4% / 6% / 8% of his maximum shields and health from each enemy leeched in 5¬†/ 6¬† / 8¬†/ 10¬†meters¬†radius.
  • Drained enemies take¬†10¬†/ 12¬†/ 15 / 20%¬†more damage¬†from all allies for¬†8 seconds.
  • Revenant is immune to damage during 1 sec cast animation.
  • Casting ability again refreshes vulnerability debuff on affected enemies.

( Basically we exchange mobility & slow debuff for increased AoE & vulnerability debuff )

( Similar to GIF below )

giphy-downsized.gif

DANSE MACABRE

Spoiler

Cast Energy = 25

Energy Drain = 10 energy per sec

// Note - Revenant can cast other abilities while Danse Macabre is active.

Revenant unleashes the might of the Eidolon essence emanating from his body, levitates himself and devastates his enemies with sentient powers.

While active ;

  • Revenant is immune to all status effects.
  • All damage received by Revenant¬†is stored into a total damage pool, then transferred to his homing projectiles¬†and charged beam as additional damage. Stored damage decays overtime by 10% each second.

( Dance Macabre looks similar to GIF below while active )

giphy.gif

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Holding fire button ( L-click ) makes Revenant shoot 8 homing projectiles every seconds that target enemies randomly in 10 / 12 / 15 / 18 meters radius. Each projectile inflicts 500 / 600 / 700 / 800 damage with a 25% status chance ( similar to Eidolons' Seeking Bullets ability ). Damaged stored in pool is divided among projectiles.

  • Holding fire button increased energy drain to 20 e/s.
  • Projectiles can damage Thralls ¬†and execute¬†them if they are under 25% health.
  • Enemies / Thralls close to Revenant¬†are prioritized.
  • Can not¬†be used simultaneously with charged beam.

( Similar to GIF below but with homing projectiles coming out of Revenant's body ).

giphy.gif

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Holding the zoom button ( R-click ) makes Revenant to charge and fire a destructive beam with his eldritch arm that deals 5,500 / 6.000 / 6,500 / 7,000 damage with 50% status chance. Transfered damage doesn't increase ( by taking damage ) or decrease ( by decay ) when beam is charged up.

  • Charged beam deals¬†2x¬†damage¬†to Eidolons and their synovias. ( to make him useful against Eidolons and maybe Flyodolons as well ?¬†)
  • Charged beam has 30¬†meters range and 5 meters punch through.
  • Charged beam has 2¬†sec charge time.
  • Can be hold indefinitely.
  • Costs¬†75¬†energy when¬†fired.
  • Can not¬†be used simultaneously with homing projectiles.
  • Casting other abilities does not cancel charged up beam.

( Similar to GIF below but imagine him shooting with an opticor-like beam from his arm )

giphy-downsized.gif

Danse Macabre's projectiles and charged beam autonomously adapt their damage type to the attributes of the enemies they hit: Corrosive b Corrosive against armored enemies, Magnetic b Magnetic against shielded enemies, Gas b Gas against enemies with infested flesh, Radiation b Radiation against Eidolons.

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You need to fix a Major problem with mesmer skin : HITS or sources of dmg taken which have a dmg value HIGHER than REV's TOTAL EHP will IGNORE ALL the STACKS = 1 shotted even with full stacks.

Nullifiers LANKA SHOTS also completely ignore mesmer skin and i don't see why they should since they don't ignore Iron Skin nor any other forms of protective abilities unless you jump inside the bubble.It's not only Nullies, Ballistas do too and anything that can blow a hit more dmg'ing than his total EHP...

Until this major problem is fixed, REV is just a piece of wet paper puppet because he'll get oneshotted as soon as the dmg starts to become interesting, so much for his Mesmer skin which will be completely ignored even if you manage to get 15 stacks.

Add the injury to the joke

ALSO Mesmer skin needs to negate TRULY all kind of dmg which includes AOE toxin/heat etc procs.

ALL KINDS of DAMAGE. Period

Thx for reading

PS: Mesmer Skin needs a more fluid and FASTER casting speed, it's utterly abysmal as of now.

no matter what you did to him, he doesn't feel any sentient/eidolon themed at all, Reave is a gimmick useless ability that should just go and be re-designed into something else.

Still a boring frame with nothing unique which has nothing to offer that other frames can't do better, or at least offer some kind of similar effectiveness into a role for the sake of variety. ( UNLIKE Nidus which is the best frame design wise, fun and synergies still ) and basically a one and half trick pony

MR fodder at its best, all those useless tweaks to basically redundant skills turned him from an EPIC fail into just a FAIL.

The pillars are still an unreliable useless gimmick by the way, no comment on the Thralls, Mesmer Skin working at 50% since AOE explosions totally Ignore the stacks as well as LANKA SHOTS etc.

his 4 is pure eye cancer.

I wonder what kinda feedback the developers have been reading, because for what i had the pleasure to read on this feedback thread, the redundant gimmicky changes he got ( save for the mesmer skin recastable, too bad it's still broken/bugged ) are far from matching the community suggestions and ideas that were clearly, easily and elegantly displayed in here.

 

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