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[DE]Marcus

[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

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I only really have two suggestions to be made. I don't expect them to be implemented, but I figured I'd give my two cents on the matter.

The biggest issue I have is one that I discovered while modding my Revenant. Because I love being a deadly laser ballerina of death, I of course modded for efficiency and strength so I could dance around to my heart's content for the first week or so. However, that got old quickly, so I thought I'd try to make a new build for him using the other parts of his kit. The overlying issue is that Danse Macabre is the only ability that does reliable damage. Thralls are okay, and the recent patch made them far more valuable in death. However, the issues with this ability lie in the fact that the AI is rather lame in that it's easily bullied - or even just stands still while it's shot to pieces - making the spreading mechanic unreliable and their combat value questionable in its existence. Secondly, The cap at 7, while a marked improvement over the original 4, is still lacking, meaning I can't pull a Nyx or Nekros for mass confusion or shadow slaves. So here I propose two changes, preferably only one at a time for balance reasons. Only one of these should be done:

1. Make Thrall count scale with some kind of stat. It doesn't have to be strength, you could make it Duration if you wanted to encourage a Thrall-based build instead of just making Str-Eff the goto build. The purpose of this is so that way you can build for this ability meaningfully, enthrall a crowd, have them act as a hive of targets to reave through when you need the hp or Mesmer Skin points. (It would also help if Thralls could be marked through walls as a sort of silhouette to indicate where your sources of life are.)


2. Allow us to hold-cast Enthrall to detonate all our active Thralls. This way, even if we only have 7 thralls, we can choose whether to use them as suicide bombers or living carriers of life energy for us to reave through. This would encourage a more selective playstyle, picking out opportune targets in a crowd and then detonating them with the sentient energy controlling them to tear a crowd apart, being a more engaging tactic than pressing 4 and holding the W key. You could perhaps balance this by requiring either a scaling energy cost depending on toughness of the enemy unit (instakilling level 120 Corrupted Bombards does seem a bit nutty), or even put the player's Mesmer Skin to use by giving it a scaling casting time depending on the net amount of HP that the ability would detonate.

Thank you for your time.

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2 minutes ago, Spirally said:

1. Make Thrall count scale with some kind of stat. It doesn't have to be strength, you could make it Duration if you wanted to encourage a Thrall-based build instead of just making Str-Eff the goto build. The purpose of this is so that way you can build for this ability meaningfully, enthrall a crowd, have them act as a hive of targets to reave through when you need the hp or Mesmer Skin points. (It would also help if Thralls could be marked through walls as a sort of silhouette to indicate where your sources of life are.)


2. Allow us to hold-cast Enthrall to detonate all our active Thralls. This way, even if we only have 7 thralls, we can choose whether to use them as suicide bombers or living carriers of life energy for us to reave through. This would encourage a more selective playstyle, picking out opportune targets in a crowd and then detonating them with the sentient energy controlling them to tear a crowd apart, being a more engaging tactic than pressing 4 and holding the W key.

This is genius and i love the idea.

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3 hours ago, Spirally said:

I only really have two suggestions to be made. I don't expect them to be implemented, but I figured I'd give my two cents on the matter.

1. Make Thrall count scale with some kind of stat. It doesn't have to be strength, you could make it Duration if you wanted to encourage a Thrall-based build instead of just making Str-Eff the goto build. The purpose of this is so that way you can build for this ability meaningfully, enthrall a crowd, have them act as a hive of targets to reave through when you need the hp or Mesmer Skin points. (It would also help if Thralls could be marked through walls as a sort of silhouette to indicate where your sources of life are.)

2. Allow us to hold-cast Enthrall to detonate all our active Thralls. This way, even if we only have 7 thralls, we can choose whether to use them as suicide bombers or living carriers of life energy for us to reave through. This would encourage a more selective playstyle, picking out opportune targets in a crowd and then detonating them with the sentient energy controlling them to tear a crowd apart, being a more engaging tactic than pressing 4 and holding the W key. You could perhaps balance this by requiring either a scaling energy cost depending on toughness of the enemy unit (instakilling level 120 Corrupted Bombards does seem a bit nutty), or even put the player's Mesmer Skin to use by giving it a scaling casting time depending on the net amount of HP that the ability would detonate.

Thank you for your time.

Hell yes. I'd lean towards option 2 because Thralls seem more like disposable cannon fodder that's only around because of the propagation mechanics constantly pulling in new meat.

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Since his thralls are so flimsy, I think their application needs to be streamlined.

I like the frequent suggestion of pillars dmg having a chance to apply thrall.

I'm thinkinf something a bit more simplistic. What if his 1 had a radius to its casting, so that your target and all targets within x meters are enthralled. Boostable by radius.

 

Alternatively, what if Reave applied enthrall to all affected targets. Remove all healing etc from this ability. Then change his 1 to "consume". all enthralled targets die, healing Rev and nearby allies for x. They then leave pillars that function as currently.

 

Also. REMOVE DETONATING PILLARS. It works AGAINST his thrall mechanic, it isnt very fun.

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I wanted to make this post in responce to some drama between me and a mod I will not name, but in the hopes and sake of this comment being taken seriously and examined with a more neutral eye, I will personally take responsbility for both sides of the argument, I will hold no ill will to this moderator and I've already forgotten and forgiven our interactions.

With that being said, I wanted to bring up my issue with Mega threads. I've been watching this video about a completely different community and forum and it seemed to resonate with this recent issue, again I'll take full responsibility for it.

Now not all of this video applies but it had some strong points which were my concerns that set me off.

Video in spoiler:

Spoiler

 

Again, not all the points of this applies to warframe's forums and I am not going to accuse anyone at DE or any other role on this forum, the points I do believe are true or could become true are these. Unfortunately I'm not the best when it comes to arguments or discussions and I feel I personally fail to word an argument logically which can result in not being addressed properly or to a lessar extent.

You can also consider this a TL;DR for the video.

  • "...When the Mercy rework came out, a Mercy Mega thread was made to traffic all the criticism into. As I've said before this was fine until people started to realise it wasn't being used to gather criticism to be read but simply to have an excuse to lock threads about Mercy and silence people..."

I don't intend to state that anyone is intentionally doing this to lock and silence people for different opinions, I just want to state that from the perspective of users having to see that or be merged it comes off as such. What follows from the video shows that compared to the threads, not many posts actually get read. This is the concern from a Mega thread. That by being shoved in it becomes harder to read the posts within it, or to even have discussion with each other that doesn't seem like it's derailed by 10+ different discussions going on at once.

I also don't intend to say that someone should view all of these posts, that's an unfair thing to say and for many, it can be a impossible or difficult task, neither am I saying that we need DE personally responding to every post, also unfair and unreasonable. But that kind of causes a problem. If it's daunting for a developer or moderator to scan through all of this, what does that say about regular users wanting to do the same? That's my problem with mega threads, it's just not very approachable to...well anyone really. As I said before by merging threads it just sows confusion as people lose track of each one.

Really, I only used the video just for the start of it. So far I've never recieved an unfair suspension or ban on the forums (or at least one where I haven't realised I'm in the wrong once I calmed down) and I'm incredibly grateful, even with this recent incident I recieved nothing, no warning points and if you want my opinion? I probably deserved one. I do however have concerns that if not careful those sorts of things could happen as it's much easier to delete an argument than to debate it.

I'm starting to feel I shouldn't have used the video at all aside from that line of dialogue from earlier.

I'd also like to apologize for the community that had to put up with me even if it was only about 5 people. I'd like to clarify that when I had referred to the mega thread as a "garbage can" I did not mean to insult the users or their ideas. I was rather upset at the time and "garbage can" was the only comparison I could think of at the time, which also meant it was the most insulting. I had intended its meaning to describe it as a "dump" in the sense it's being used to store or horde things like threads that people had no desire to read. As I said to the mod via pm, "garbage can" was more referring to the housing. I later stated how even a garbage can, can have beauty held inside it and really that's my problem of having these mega threads. Nuggets of gold are being placed in storage rather than on display, and no I do not refer to my own thread.

I'm not really sure how to end this post now, been here writing it for 20+ minutes and I've kinda lost whatever my point was. (I think it was just be careful on merging/making megathreads and handling forums). Regardless, I've stated what I want to, I've made my confessions and hopefully writing this is a good enough apology. My mind feels a lot more clear and even if unread I feel happier knowing I've made this post. If you've stayed to the end and read through all my mad ranting, thank you.

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Hello again, just dropped by because I just had a fun idea after watching todays devstream.

Why not grant quick/melee the ability to cancel Reave into a attack? I think it would be a nice addition to it's functionality. I know you can already cancel it early by casting the ability again before the animation ends. But I just think it would be a nice quality of life change and a neat offensive buff. It's not really necessary but I think it would be fun to have especially with his Nodachi coming with Melee 3.0. Anyway, just dropping by, thanks again.

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Le 13/09/2018 à 11:46, Momaw a dit :

Changes I would like to try personally,

Enthrall

1.) Thralls have 90% damage resistance against Tenno other than their owner.

Purpose: Reduce the number of thralls being wiped out as unintentional collateral damage.

2.) When killed, thralls turn into something similar to a Vomvalyst for the remaining duration of the ability (e.g. if they had 15 seconds of thralling left, they become a Vomva-like for 15 seconds). Maximum number of both minions is still capped at 7, where "real" enemies can make vomvalysts get pushed off the population stack but not vice-versa. Vomva-like pets are completely immune to all incoming damage no matter where it's from, but can still transmit Enthrall to their targets in which case they die instantly.

Purpose: Give players utility from Enthralling enemies on high-DPS teams without the the clunkiness that is damage pillars and projectiles and having to tag pillars with the lasers and bleh. Essentially when you cast this you can be ensured that for your full duration there will be something going on, as your ability jumps from host to host until its duration is expired.

 

Mesmer Skin

When hit, subtract 1 charge from Mesmer Skin to stun whoever hit you and apply damage resistance for 3 seconds. Further stuns and losing further charges cannot happen until the 3 seconds expires.

Purpose: Remove abusive gameplay that total invulnerability gives, as well as make the skill less limited for the average player.

 

Dance Macabre

Energy cost starts at 5 energy per second and applies a stacking debuff that increases its cost by 2 per second (per second) up to 10 stacks as long as you have it active. (i.e. peak energy cost of 25 energy per second after leaving it on for 10 seconds).  Debuff stacks decay while not using this ability.

Purpose: Make ability cost substantially less for "tactical" use and only punish keeping it engaged for long periods of time.

I REALLY like your vom idea!  but I would also keep the current pillars/seeking missiles on death plus also add:

New Passive on top of the current one:

For each X amount of shield lost, Rev recharges Y amount of energy. Essentially a Rage/Hunter Adrenaline but for his shield. 

Mesmer Skin:

->Protects only hp, not shield.

->As you said, time-gated for 3sec.  (I personally prefer if it remained a 100% damage reduction as it is right now throughout the 3 sec of protection per stack)

Danse Macabre:

->50 Overshield is completely useless. Overshield/shield drops need to scale in terms of amount given to us with the max hp+shield of the, now dead, enemy (not 100% ratio obviously but something quite significant at least). Volt can fully charge the shield+overshield of everybody in the team in a single ult (overshield gained scales on damage done) while a strength-built Mag can do the same with 2 casts of her Magnetize. Rev, on the other hand, only gets overshield drops from thralls killed by DM on top of the fact that DM is extremely energy hungry and that you have to walk over the corpse/drop to get it. A LOT more energy and "work" is used/done in the process. It should therefore warrant a significant overshield drop that is useful even in endgame content. This would also go hand-in-hand with your vomvalist idea as it allows the creation of thralls while you're still in DM.

->For each stack that increases energy cost (as you described), damage also increases. Reason: This ability either DESTROYS everything instantly or becomes near useless because the DPS it brings isn't enough to deal with endgame content such as sorties. 

->Allow the beams to "focus/track" enemies mirage-ball style AS IN: being capable of damaging enemies not on the same verticality as Rev. It's so annoying to not be able to hit enemies barely above/under Rev with this ability and for it's energy cost, it's a QoL buff that is absolutely necessary. As long as Rev has eye contact of an enemy and said enemy is withing the ability's range, it should always damage it regardless if it's above or bellow. 

->Beam affecting flesh needs to do heat damage. Gas is meh against corpus/grineer flesh and is completely useless against infested the moment ancients are there.

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The new pillar homing bullets are cool but they aren't really noticeable because thralls still die too fast before they can spread the enthrallment to a meaningful number. It'd help a significant amount if thralls were immune to damage from allies(except Revenant) until the enthrallment count reaches the max, which would allow allies to participate in creating the death pillars, then back to immunity until the enthrallment spread again to max. This loop would grant Revenant sole control over the state he wants his thrall count to be in until he amasses his full congregation, then the herd can be thinned a little by the all too common kill hungry tenno allies without starving Revenant of his core mechanic and skill.

The acquisition range and damage of the homing bullets should be included in the ability tooltip. The acquisition range probably needs to be increased, really hard to test at the moment or probably in general. Same with the passive, the range feels too small and it's hard to test either way.

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I have played Rev on every type of mission twice after the current changes to him(update:23.8.1). Interception was the only mission type where my thralls would last more than 7 seconds . The first ability(thralls) is still quite useless in majority of mission types with allies due to friendly fire. Thrall seems more like "press one to summon a damaging pillar to attack enemies" instead of "press one to make a enemy your thrall." I had a heck of a frustrating time trying to make thralls just so I can Reave for the heck of it or get overshields by using Danse Macabre. This warframe feels like it isn't going anywhere if the thralls die way to fast due to allies. It is obvious that you guys do not want Rev to be another Nyx or Nekros. Unfortunately, you made him one by giving him that said ability and you made it useless majority of the time by having them die by friendly fire.

On 2018-09-13 at 10:46 AM, Momaw said:

Changes I would like to try personally,

Enthrall

1.) Thralls have 90% damage resistance against Tenno other than their owner.

Purpose: Reduce the number of thralls being wiped out as unintentional collateral damage.

2.) When killed, thralls turn into something similar to a Vomvalyst for the remaining duration of the ability (e.g. if they had 15 seconds of thralling left, they become a Vomva-like for 15 seconds). Maximum number of both minions is still capped at 7, where "real" enemies can make vomvalysts get pushed off the population stack but not vice-versa. Vomva-like pets are completely immune to all incoming damage no matter where it's from, but can still transmit Enthrall to their targets in which case they die instantly.

Purpose: Give players utility from Enthralling enemies on high-DPS teams without the the clunkiness that is damage pillars and projectiles and having to tag pillars with the lasers and bleh. Essentially when you cast this you can be ensured that for your full duration there will be something going on, as your ability jumps from host to host until its duration is expired.

 

 

 

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Decided to drop off some augment ideas in hopes of getting them out of my head. 

Mesmer Skin Augment Ideals.

-Mesmer Circus
Enemies killed while stunned by Mesmer skin explode into multiple seeking projectiles that deal damage based off damage taken by the stunned enemy.

-Mesmerizing Enthrall
Auto enthralls stunned targets

-Deadly Mesmerize
Stunned enemies are open to finishers.


Reave Augment Ideas

-Resurrecting Reave
Reave instantly resurrects fallen allies when passing over them.

-Empowering Reave
Reave leave behind an empowering rift that lingers for a duration and grants allies over shields overtime and damage reduction while standing next to the rift.

**additional notes
This augment ideal is based of the purple rifts left behind by the Hydrolyst during the fight which super charges it’s Vomvalyst defenses among other things.

Can be useful for protecting Eidolon lures, allies, and defense objectives alike.
 

Danse Macabre Augment Ideals

-Macabre Forte
Sacrifices Lasers to buff your weapons directly
+Additional Attack speed and fire rate for guns and melee weapons is gained and scales off damage taken.
+Additional damage is granted to weapons and scales off damage taken.
*Like the laser, the type of damage added to weapons is based off the enemy.
-Movement speed of Danse Macabre stays the same.
-Danse Macabre is always at max channeling strength so the drains is intensified(?)
-Cannot jump while in Danse (Macabre Forte)

**additional notes.
I think something like this could be fun to use in tandem with Reave especially if we’re given the option to cancel Reave early with melee attacks.

If additional damage gained could be changed to radiation during a Eidolon fight that could make him another option for a damage dealer when hunting Eidolons which would excellent!

I didn't come up with any augment ideas for enthrall as of yet but if anything comes to mind i'm sure you can count on me dropping by again. 

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8 hours ago, Zahnny said:

I wanted to make this post in responce to some drama between me and a mod I will not name, but in the hopes and sake of this comment being taken seriously and examined with a more neutral eye, I will personally take responsbility for both sides of the argument, I will hold no ill will to this moderator and I've already forgotten and forgiven our interactions.

With that being said, I wanted to bring up my issue with Mega threads. I've been watching this video about a completely different community and forum and it seemed to resonate with this recent issue, again I'll take full responsibility for it.

Now not all of this video applies but it had some strong points which were my concerns that set me off.

Video in spoiler:

  Hide contents

 

Again, not all the points of this applies to warframe's forums and I am not going to accuse anyone at DE or any other role on this forum, the points I do believe are true or could become true are these. Unfortunately I'm not the best when it comes to arguments or discussions and I feel I personally fail to word an argument logically which can result in not being addressed properly or to a lessar extent.

You can also consider this a TL;DR for the video.

  • "...When the Mercy rework came out, a Mercy Mega thread was made to traffic all the criticism into. As I've said before this was fine until people started to realise it wasn't being used to gather criticism to be read but simply to have an excuse to lock threads about Mercy and silence people..."

I don't intend to state that anyone is intentionally doing this to lock and silence people for different opinions, I just want to state that from the perspective of users having to see that or be merged it comes off as such. What follows from the video shows that compared to the threads, not many posts actually get read. This is the concern from a Mega thread. That by being shoved in it becomes harder to read the posts within it, or to even have discussion with each other that doesn't seem like it's derailed by 10+ different discussions going on at once.

I also don't intend to say that someone should view all of these posts, that's an unfair thing to say and for many, it can be a impossible or difficult task, neither am I saying that we need DE personally responding to every post, also unfair and unreasonable. But that kind of causes a problem. If it's daunting for a developer or moderator to scan through all of this, what does that say about regular users wanting to do the same? That's my problem with mega threads, it's just not very approachable to...well anyone really. As I said before by merging threads it just sows confusion as people lose track of each one.

Really, I only used the video just for the start of it. So far I've never recieved an unfair suspension or ban on the forums (or at least one where I haven't realised I'm in the wrong once I calmed down) and I'm incredibly grateful, even with this recent incident I recieved nothing, no warning points and if you want my opinion? I probably deserved one. I do however have concerns that if not careful those sorts of things could happen as it's much easier to delete an argument than to debate it.

I'm starting to feel I shouldn't have used the video at all aside from that line of dialogue from earlier.

I'd also like to apologize for the community that had to put up with me even if it was only about 5 people. I'd like to clarify that when I had referred to the mega thread as a "garbage can" I did not mean to insult the users or their ideas. I was rather upset at the time and "garbage can" was the only comparison I could think of at the time, which also meant it was the most insulting. I had intended its meaning to describe it as a "dump" in the sense it's being used to store or horde things like threads that people had no desire to read. As I said to the mod via pm, "garbage can" was more referring to the housing. I later stated how even a garbage can, can have beauty held inside it and really that's my problem of having these mega threads. Nuggets of gold are being placed in storage rather than on display, and no I do not refer to my own thread.

I'm not really sure how to end this post now, been here writing it for 20+ minutes and I've kinda lost whatever my point was. (I think it was just be careful on merging/making megathreads and handling forums). Regardless, I've stated what I want to, I've made my confessions and hopefully writing this is a good enough apology. My mind feels a lot more clear and even if unread I feel happier knowing I've made this post. If you've stayed to the end and read through all my mad ranting, thank you.

its pretty much the same on every forum, the devs/mods don't really respond, I haven't seen anyone whos gotten into as many arguments or have been silenced on warframe forums , but responses to megathreads on here are just as non void as other gaming forums and I don't think that will ever change with any games forums to be perfectly honest .

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So I've been using Revenant the past couple days extensively to try and get a feel for him and his abilities.  I've been pleasantly surprised with most of him, but the fact that he's reliant on creating packs of converted enemies can make him difficult to use effectively.

REVENANT'S STRENGTHS

  1. Enemies Enthralling Enemies: If you pick a good Enthrall victim, one good enthrall in the middle of a pack of dudes can convert the entire pack at once, turning a dangerous group of enemies into a combat non-issue that you can then exploit for free healing with Reave and easily slaughter with Danse Macabre.
  2. Mesmer Skin: This one power does huge things for Revenant's survivability, interrupting attacks and stunning the attackers and making them easy to Thrall for several seconds.  With a pack of thralls distracting and limiting the amount of fire you take, this ability can easily handle stray attacks and give you immense survivability that only Nullifiers, Scrambus, Ancient Disruptors, and bosses can ignore.
  3. Danse Macabre: Just... a really good attack.  It's strong, it's prolonged, its thoroughly controllable, it adapts to scale better with your victims, even shield-heals and grants overshield when used to splat thralls.

REVENANT'S WEAKNESSES

  1. Thralls are Stupid: The Ideal Thrall lasts all the way to the end of Enthrall's duration, then dies.  Most of the time that doesn't happen - either they die way too early, often due to stupidly running into Revenant's own attacks or the death-effects of other thralls, or they last to the end of their Enthrall's duration and revert to being enemies again, which is a problem when four bombards, a Drahk Master, and two Scorpions are suddenly looking at your teammates or objective and are very pissed off.
  2. Reave still Has Usability Issues: Reave has a lot of purposes where you'd want to use it, but it's still pretty costly at 50 energy.  Its delayed startup and straight-line ground-hugging trajectory makes it difficult to hit the targets you want when you're trying to Reave thralls for healing or Reave fast-moving allies to grant them Mesmer Skin.
  3. No Sustain: Revenant's kit requires constant power usage and is very energy-hungry, but he has no means of sustaining his energy without resorting to Zenurik focus.  In particular, Revenant has to make new thralls and recast Mesmer Skin regularly, or he's only operating at a fraction of his full power.  This leads to 'one power builds' like builds that focus on Danse Macabre to the exclusion of everything else - there's not enough energy for a non-Zenurik to use the whole kit.
  4. Busywork: Revenant's really busy.  Like, really, really busy.  You have to cast Mesmer skin, then keep flicking your view around to spot stunned enemies to be thralled, you have to select good thralls since you're limited to seven, you have to watch your health and shield to ensure that you Reave your thralls when it drops low, you have to both manually start and stop Reave to keep from flying off into the distance when using it, and you have to watch your thrall count and cull them when they get too numerous, otherwise you won't be able to make more when you need to.  That's a lot to do, especially on top of keeping track of enemies, firing accurately, and focusing on completing objectives.

Let me go through Revenant, power-by-power, and see if I can't suggest some changes that would alleviate his weaknesses.

ENTHRALL
Purpose: Make disposable allies that make other disposable allies for you.  Allies are uncontrolled, but do everything they did as enemies and can be exploited by your other powers.  On death, they produce damaging effects that harm and kill other enemies.

Strengths: Enthralled enemies enthrall other enemies with their attacks.  Catching a bombard or mutalist moa or Corpus tech with Enthrall can quickly fill you to your thrall cap in no time at all, making a readily-available pack of victims for your other powers to exploit and producing a lot of quality distraction to help keep your Mesmer skin full. On death, thralls create a pillar of damaging energy that can kill other enemies, can be exploded by Danse Macabre to deal even more damage, and produces explosive homing projectiles that seek out new victims and damage them, so you're encouraged to cull your flock frequently.

Weaknesses: The death effects often kill your other thralls as often as they kill non-enthralled enemies, making it hard to keep a thrall flock without spamming Enthrall.  If a thrall doesn't die, either from its allies, from you culling it for its death effects, or stupidly running into the death effects of another dead thrall, they revert to being normal enemies, and there's no real way to extend their timer to prevent this.  As a result, there's a lot of timer watching by Revenant to ensure that all thralls of a given 'generation' are culled before the next batch is used.  Enthralled enemies reverting back to normal also causes problems when teamed with Gara or Frost, since they can safely walk through barrier powers and thus get inside the team's defenses.  On Defense and Interception, enthralled enemies don't count as enemies anymore, meaning they'll survive into the next round and then revert unless killed, forcing you to do more work.  Allies tend to murder them really easy with AoE powers, causing you to waste energy creating them.  Sometimes you wind up enthralling enemies near or in front of your target instead of the one you want, causing you to waste energy trying to thrall a stunned enemy when other enemies are crowding around them.  Homing projectiles from death effects are hard to see.

Suggestions for Improvement:

  • Death effects from thralls do not target or harm other thralls.
  • Normal damage from Revenant's allies is either cut to a quarter, or deferred until the Enthrall timer ends and then applied all at once (similar to Nyx's Mind Control or Nidus's Parasitic Link)
  • Creating a new Thrall sets the timer on all existing thralls to the new duration, ensuring that all thralls have the same duration, for less timer-memorization.
  • Enthrall itself deals True damage over time to thralls, which begins to ramp up over time; if they stay enthralled long enough, they will die from it.
  • Reave and Danse Macabre deal massive True damage to thralls, allowing you to quickly cull them when necessary.
  • Enthrall's effect is merely cosmetic; it's actually now hitscan and always attempts to enthrall the enemy your reticle is placed on.  If forced to pick a target, it will preferentially grab victims that are stunned by Mesmer Skin over others.
  • Brighten up the homing projectiles from death effects.
  • If a round on Defense or Interception ends and you have thralls, they die immediately.
  • Thralls, even though they're allies, cannot walk through Mass Vitrify's walls and are still subject to CC effects from Revenant or allies.
  • You can always directly-Enthrall a new target.  If enthralling a new enemy would take you over your thrall cap, your oldest living thrall is released to become an enemy again.  Thralls enthralling enemies cannot push you above the thrall cap and force a release this way.

MESMER SKIN
Purpose: Ensure no enemy can manage a sustained attack on Revenant until it runs out of charges. Create opportunities for energy-free enthrallment. Be granted to squishy allies via Reave to drastically improve their survivability.  Wonky but effective crowd control which revolves around wandering into crowds and making them all stun themselves.  Saving you from your own stupidity - see that last point.

Strengths: Stun lasts a generously long time.  Stun makes Enthrall free to cast on that victim.  Stun ensures that sustained-damage enemies, like lancers and crewmen, cannot focus on you.  Mesmer skin has a lot of charges at max level (even a modest build can have well over 13 charges) and can be recast to refill it.  No real thought required to use it, which is a breath of fresh air compared to the busywork required for some of Revenant's other abilities.  Can be copied to allies by Reaving them.

Weaknesses: Based on charges - can be depleted really fast in a crowd of focused attackers.  Stunned enemies can be hard to spot as there's no visible effect aside from them grunting and going limp for a while.  Some attacks won't pass their stun on to the attacker.  Some enemies are immune to the stun and can continue attacking you constantly.  Fog effect obscures vision.

Observations: Might be a bit too strong as it is.  Making it recastable kinda made Reave's ability to restore charges irrelevant.  Hardcore efficiency builds can keep Mesmer Skin up a very, very long time, and be damn-near invulnerable to most Grineer and Corpus while doing it.

Suggestions for Improvement:

  • Remove Mesmer Skin's recastability again; require Revenant to use Reave to restore charges without waiting for it to expire.  Alternatively, make recasting require you to cancel the existing Mesmer skin and then cast again to get a fresh set of charges, and increase the casting time on it to ensure that they can't stand out in the open with Skin down.
  • Highlight stunned enemies for Revenant and Revenant alone, so that he can quickly pick them out of a crowd for Enthralling.
  • Ensure that attacks like Swarm Moa swarms, Tar Moa goop, and Hyekka Master burn patches pass a stun onto the owner of the effect when a Mesmer Skin wearer runs through them.
  • Reduce fog effect on the owner of Mesmer skin or increase transparency on it to improve visibility.  Make fog effect invisible or extremely translucent on allies that have it.  Colorize it according to the bearer's energy color.

REAVE
Purpose: Exploit thralls for shield and health.  Cull thralls to prevent them from reverting.  Get from point A to point B in a straight line really fast and be invulnerable while doing it.  Pass Mesmer Skin onto allies.  Restore Mesmer Skin's charges.

Strengths: Restores health and shields when you hit enemies, more if they're a living thrall.  Totally invulnerable.  Covers a huge distance.  Lets you pass through enemies and allies alike without stopping.

Weaknesses: Usability issues: has a startup time and travels a long distance, requiring you to manually cancel it mid-dash to avoid sailing off into the distance.  Strictly ground-to-ground; cannot easily use it in the air.  Startup time makes reaving allies to grant Mesmer skin difficult if they are actively moving and dodging. Doesn't inflict much of any damage, even to thralls; not useful for culling, requiring you to use the more expensive Danse Macabre.  Feels weak - no real feedback when hitting targets, allied, enemy or thrall.

Suggestions for Improvement:

  • Add satisfying feedback for Reave hits - enemies stagger, maybe outlined by ghostly fire; thralls are momentarily lifted upward (think Bastille) and pass energy to Revenant; allies are overlaid with a ghostly image of Revenant that quickly fades away
  • Change Reave's usage profile; make it work more like Rhino Charge or Zephyr's Tailwind.  Sudden, short, rapid dash that goes exactly where you point it.  Add a brief cooldown period if you're uncomfortable with it being spammed.  Alternatively, allow you to curve your path while Reaving.
  • Grant it massive true damage when used on thralls, to allow it to be used for culling them instead of the more expensive Danse Macabre.
  • Allow Reave to restore some energy when passing through the death effects of dead thralls, at the cost of eating the death effect.

DANSE MACABRE
Purpose: When everything in the vicinity absolutely has to die.  Culling thralls when on the move or on offense.  Being a mobile point of area-denial.  Ensuring your shields don't get broken while culling thralls.  Providing the laser light show while Mirage provides the disco ball and Octavia provides the music.

Strengths: Very strong, and adapts its damage to the enemy's health type.  Unboosted, can be kept up for a surprisingly long time on a full energy bar.  Boosted, deals even more damage.  Culls thralls effectively and cause their energy pillars to explode; useful if you don't want the pillars around and other thralls running into them.

Weaknesses: Only effective option for thrall culling, which is annoying if you want to take advantage of their death effects.  Costly; without Zenurik, you're going to be hard pressed to use it effectively against extremely high-level enemies.  Costliness also ensures you can only really use quick bursts for thrall culling.  Can't really do anything else while it's running, except for left clicking to boost it, moving around, and pressing three to cast Reave while it's active.  Diminishes Reave's functionality.  Has difficulty hitting enemies at ground level (CRAWLERS!) or enemies that have the high ground on you.

Suggestions for Improvement:

  • Increase spin speed slightly, or have spin speed adjust itself depending on whether or not the beams are actually hitting something - faster when not touching anything (to get the beams in contact with something quicker), slower when they are (to increase the time the beams stay in contact with, and thus damage, the target)
  • Make it deal massive True damage to thralls
  • Allow you to do normal jumps (not double jumps or bullet jumps) while using it, to deal with enemies trying to escape it vertically
  • Increase hitbox to extend from just below Revenant's feet all the way to his head.

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18 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Remove Mesmer Skin's recastability again; require Revenant to use Reave to restore charges without waiting for it to expire.  Alternatively, make recasting require you to cancel the existing Mesmer skin and then cast again to get a fresh set of charges, and increase the casting time on it to ensure that they can't stand out in the open with Skin down.

No. Going 'oh this ability is too good let's make it depend on another ability' is literally forcing more busy work on a frame you outright stated has too much going n. I literally will never support this as a notion. Find another effect for Reave, because taking away recastability for the sake of some bolted on 'please use thi ability nobody actually wants to use' is... No.

20 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Highlight stunned enemies for Revenant and Revenant alone, so that he can quickly pick them out of a crowd for Enthralling.

I like this, and moreover i like that you specify that only the guy who's mesmer skin got hit sees the target mark to cut down on clutter everyone else has to deal with.

21 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Ensure that attacks like Swarm Moa swarms, Tar Moa goop, and Hyekka Master burn patches pass a stun onto the owner of the effect when a Mesmer Skin wearer runs through them.

In theory great. In practice I'm not sure if that is doable or not depending on if the game tracks who the goop pile came from, which I don't think it does.

22 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Reduce fog effect on the owner of Mesmer skin or increase transparency on it to improve visibility.  Make fog effect invisible or extremely translucent on allies that have it.  Colorize it according to the bearer's energy color.

Pretty sure they said they were going to tone the fog down as of Prime Time.


 

24 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Weaknesses: Usability issues: has a startup time and travels a long distance, requiring you to manually cancel it mid-dash to avoid sailing off into the distance.  Strictly ground-to-ground; cannot easily use it in the air.  Startup time makes reaving allies to grant Mesmer skin difficult if they are actively moving and dodging. Doesn't inflict much of any damage, even to thralls; not useful for culling, requiring you to use the more expensive Danse Macabre.  Feels weak - no real feedback when hitting targets, allied, enemy or thrall.

 

add in the fact there is no steerability and goes where the warframe is pointed rather than where the camera is pointed, leading to further sterribility issues. Plus for what it does even at the reduced cost it feels like it doesn't do enough to justify existing.

26 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Add satisfying feedback for Reave hits - enemies stagger, maybe outlined by ghostly fire; thralls are momentarily lifted upward (think Bastille) and pass energy to Revenant; allies are overlaid with a ghostly image of Revenant that quickly fades away

 

Beware making it TOO busy, but I agree giving some sort of feedback that's easy to see would make it feel more satisfying to use. Also adding a mass enemy stagger would be outstanding since suddenly 'oh hey this thing has a use other than us throwing every little interaction we can with his other abilities without actually giving it somethign that is its own because we're afraid it will be too good then.'

28 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Change Reave's usage profile; make it work more like Rhino Charge or Zephyr's Tailwind.  Sudden, short, rapid dash that goes exactly where you point it.  Add a brief cooldown period if you're uncomfortable with it being spammed.

 

Adding steeribility and the ability to use it to flow over obsticals would greatly improve its useability especially since time and again it is supposedly the 'oh crap i need to move NOW' skill.

30 minutes ago, Arkvold said:
  • Grant it massive true damage when used on thralls, to allow it to be used for culling them instead of the more expensive Danse Macabre.
  • Allow Reave to restore some energy when passing through the death effects of dead thralls, at the cost of eating the death effect.
 

Holy Christ you're on fire here. This is amazing as it gives Revenant much needed sustain.


 

31 minutes ago, Arkvold said:
  • Increase spin speed slightly, or have spin speed adjust itself depending on whether or not the beams are actually hitting something - faster when not touching anything (to get the beams in contact with something quicker), slower when they are (to increase the time the beams stay in contact with, and thus damage, the target)
  • Make it deal massive True damage to thralls
  • Allow you to do normal jumps (not double jumps or bullet jumps) while using it, to deal with enemies trying to escape it vertically
  • Increase hitbox to extend from just below Revenant's feet all the way to his head.
 

Suggest also having a ramping cost much like Ember so that it starts off at the original value, but ovr a period ramps up to current cost. This invites people to use while making it problematic to just AFK spin.


 

35 minutes ago, Arkvold said:
  • Death effects from thralls do not target or harm other thralls.
  • Normal damage from Revenant's allies is either cut to a quarter, or deferred until the Enthrall timer ends and then applied all at once (similar to Nyx's Mind Control or Nidus's Parasitic Link)
  • Creating a new Thrall sets the timer on all existing thralls to the new duration, ensuring that all thralls have the same duration, for less timer-memorization.
  • Enthrall itself deals True damage over time to thralls, which begins to ramp up over time; if they stay enthralled long enough, they will die from it.
  • Reave and Danse Macabre deal massive True damage to thralls, allowing you to quickly cull them when necessary.
  • Enthrall's effect is merely cosmetic; it's actually now hitscan and always attempts to enthrall the enemy your reticle is placed on.  If forced to pick a target, it will preferentially grab victims that are stunned by Mesmer Skin over others.
  • Brighten up the homing projectiles from death effects.
  • If a round on Defense or Interception ends and you have thralls, they die immediately.
  • Thralls, even though they're allies, cannot walk through Mass Vitrify's walls and are still subject to CC effects from Revenant or allies.
  • You can always directly-Enthrall a new target.  If enthralling a new enemy would take you over your thrall cap, your oldest living thrall is released to become an enemy again.  Thralls enthralling enemies cannot push you above the thrall cap and force a release this way.

Frankly, I would also suggest that while Revenant cannot make more than seven thralls, the actual thrall cap would go up with power strength or duration so that thralls can make more thralls. Unlike nekros we don't exactly want these guys around. They're distraction, meat shield, and then die to give you damage turrets. Your idea of differing all damage til the enthrall period ends as well as putting a refresh on all thralls whenever thrall is re-cast would probably shore up the major problems and the enthrall state doing finisher damage over time takes care of the messy fact these are enemies and we want them to die.

For me a problem just as big is that the death state pillars/projectiles do laughable damage. It likely would help if the projectiles do damage corresponding to what the enemy was (corpus enemies deal magnetic, grineer do corrosive, infested deal gas, sentients deal finisher damage.) Not a perfect solution, so couple that with the damage ramping with enemy level? Like... 'enthrall damage value = (Enemy Level/4)*(Enthrall base damage + Enemy Health value + Enemy armor value) Exact value to be determined, but the inclusion of the enemy's armor value is important since if you enthrall a nox or a bombard that should count for more than if you enthrall a butcher or crewman.

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8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

No. Going 'oh this ability is too good let's make it depend on another ability' is literally forcing more busy work on a frame you outright stated has too much going n. I literally will never support this as a notion. Find another effect for Reave, because taking away recastability for the sake of some bolted on 'please use thi ability nobody actually wants to use' is... No.

The goal wasn't really to preserve Reave's functionality, but more to put a limit on just how quickly you can regain Mesmer Skin's charges.  Right now, so long as you've got the energy, you do not die to anything except burn patches or nullifiers.  Charges are not eaten fast enough by most enemies to allow Revenant to be worn down until he's flat-broke on energy, and if Reave gets changed to allow energy sustain, Mesmer Skin falling off should never happen.

Reave's usefulness will increase when Mesmer Skin can actually fail to protect you and you'll need Reave to refill lost health and shields.  Moreover, giving Reave energy sustain and better usability will make its usage more desirable, ensuring that players utilize more of the kit.  I honestly feel that Mesmer Skin, as it stands, is way too potent a defensive ability, and needs to be given a window of vulnerability - one an intelligent player can avoid or work through, and one that keeps it from being a braindead invulnerability button, akin to what Iron Skin and Hysteria are for most of the game.  This is coming from someone for whom Rhino is among their top-3 played Warframes, if you're thinking of accusing me of being biased against him.

I realized that losing recastability would be opposed.  This is why I had the alternate suggestion of preserving Reave's recastability, but force it to be dropped and then recasted, with significant movement-locking animations attached to both.  This would force Revenant to seek the either hard cover or the shelter of his thrall horde or allies to replenish his Mesmer Skin, and make Reave's ability to restore charges without being vulnerable more attractive of an option.

 

8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

I like this, and moreover i like that you specify that only the guy who's mesmer skin got hit sees the target mark to cut down on clutter everyone else has to deal with.

Yeah - there's enough visual clutter without stunned enemies lighting up for everyone.  Only Revenant needs to be made aware of the stuns, since they're priority targets for Enthrall.  For everyone else, they're just a happy "oh good, it's not shooting me for a few seconds" bonus.

 

8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

In theory great. In practice I'm not sure if that is doable or not depending on if the game tracks who the goop pile came from, which I don't think it does.

I know it tracks the alliance of damage patches based on the alliance of the owner; you can check this by simply mind-controlling a napalm or hyekka master or mutalist moa with Nyx and then standing in the damage patch.  It won't hurt you.  So there's got to be some tracking there.  If it's not possible, then I'm okay with it - it's a minor point and would make damage patches a noteworthy chink in Mesmer Skin's formidable defenses.

 

8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Pretty sure they said they were going to tone the fog down as of Prime Time.

Thank Christ.  Can't tell you how many Crawlers have snuck up on me because of it.  I missed Prime Time and the Devstream due to family obligations and haven't really taken the time to check the recap or rewatch it, so apologies if I wind up repeating something that's already going to be done.

 

8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

add in the fact there is no steerability and goes where the warframe is pointed rather than where the camera is pointed, leading to further sterribility issues. Plus for what it does even at the reduced cost it feels like it doesn't do enough to justify existing.

Actually, the latest changes made Reave track the direction of the camera on startup, which was a huge improvement.  It's still not steerable though.

Steerability or a more quick-and-punchy usage profile akin to Rhino Charge (still the gold standard of charge abilities, IMO) would go a long way to making Reave less infuriating to use.

 

8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Beware making it TOO busy, but I agree giving some sort of feedback that's easy to see would make it feel more satisfying to use. Also adding a mass enemy stagger would be outstanding since suddenly 'oh hey this thing has a use other than us throwing every little interaction we can with his other abilities without actually giving it somethign that is its own because we're afraid it will be too good then.'

In my mental image of them, all the effects that Reave produces should be limited to the entities touched, and last for no more than one second.  Just long enough that you can spin your camera around to look behind you and catch the aftermath of all the things you passed through - which would be immensely satisfying.  It would also allow allies to see that Revenant is doing something  when he turns translucent and slips through a pack of enemies.  In my playing of Revenant, a few people accused me of just running around and AFKing unless I used Danse Macabre, since two of Rev's abilities don't deal direct damage and Reave has no immediately-noticeable effect on enemies it passes through.

 

8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Holy Christ you're on fire here. This is amazing as it gives Revenant much needed sustain.

I figure it would allow you to control how a thrall's death is used.  Want death effects?  Shoot them.  Need energy?  Reave them to death.  Need boom-boom?  Danse Macabre.

 

8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Suggest also having a ramping cost much like Ember so that it starts off at the original value, but ovr a period ramps up to current cost. This invites people to use while making it problematic to just AFK spin.

 

Not sure it needs the ramping cost.  I wouldn't be opposed to this change if it was made, but if Reave gains energy sustain by eating death effects, allowing people to short-spin it might make it overpowered again.

 

8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Frankly, I would also suggest that while Revenant cannot make more than seven thralls, the actual thrall cap would go up with power strength or duration so that thralls can make more thralls. Unlike nekros we don't exactly want these guys around. They're distraction, meat shield, and then die to give you damage turrets. Your idea of differing all damage til the enthrall period ends as well as putting a refresh on all thralls whenever thrall is re-cast would probably shore up the major problems and the enthrall state doing finisher damage over time takes care of the messy fact these are enemies and we want them to die.

IMO, The Ideal Thrall stays around for its full duration, enthralls as many other enemies as it possibly can, then is either culled for damage, health or energy or at least has the decency to walk off somewhere and die.

I figure allowing you to extend the duration of Enthrall for all your thralls when you create a new one, coupled with the ramping true damage would ensure that they do that last part, while still giving you time to cull them for bonuses should you want or need to.  This would also promote smart enthralling practices - do you want to enthrall the tough guy?  Sure, he might enthrall a lot of other dudes for you, might even get some genuine kills, but you're going to need to refresh Enthrall a couple times, directly cull him, or shoot him to ensure that he dies before Enthrall runs out, otherwise he's going to become a problem again.  Enthralling the weak ones ensures they'll die before Enthrall runs out, but they might die really early due to their fragility and as a result might not accomplish much.  Still, those are death effects and you can Reave those!  Om nom nom SOULS.

I'm not so certain about expanding the thrall cap.  Seven feels pretty okay to me, and you don't want to allow too many because of Old School Nekros Syndrome, where the spawn caps are occupied by tons and tons of Shadows of enemies that aren't being allowed to die.  Ideally, Revenant wants to cull 'em almost as fast as he makes 'em, but there's always going to be someone who's way too attached to their minions, and I really don't want them to be able to blot a map in blue dots like old-school Nekros could.

 

8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

For me a problem just as big is that the death state pillars/projectiles do laughable damage. It likely would help if the projectiles do damage corresponding to what the enemy was (corpus enemies deal magnetic, grineer do corrosive, infested deal gas, sentients deal finisher damage.) Not a perfect solution, so couple that with the damage ramping with enemy level? Like... 'enthrall damage value = (Enemy Level/4)*(Enthrall base damage + Enemy Health value + Enemy armor value) Exact value to be determined, but the inclusion of the enemy's armor value is important since if you enthrall a nox or a bombard that should count for more than if you enthrall a butcher or crewman.

I like the idea of the death effects dealing damage based on the victim's level and Enthrall's power strength.  Not so sure about it scaling with effective health, since some enemies have low effective health, but a lot of battlefield impact and are less-common spawns - mutalist ospreys and moas, for instance, have barely more effective health than the chargers or runners in practice, but have a lot more battlefield presence.

The idea of the death effects changing damage type corresponding to the enemy type is nice, but let's just make it simpler and re-use a mechanic from elsewhere in Revenant's kit; make their damage type adapt to the enemy being hit, just like Danse Macabre does.  It accomplishes a similar effect as to what you suggest, it re-uses an existing bit of code, and best of all, it adds a bit more of that damage-adaptive Sentient flavor to Revenant's kit.

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52 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

The idea of the death effects changing damage type corresponding to the enemy type is nice, but let's just make it simpler and re-use a mechanic from elsewhere in Revenant's kit; make their damage type adapt to the enemy being hit, just like Danse Macabre does.  It accomplishes a similar effect as to what you suggest, it re-uses an existing bit of code, and best of all, it adds a bit more of that damage-adaptive Sentient flavor to Revenant's kit.

Either or works and to be honest either would probably serve well in making the death state of thralls have mor relevance.

54 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

 

I'm not so certain about expanding the thrall cap.  Seven feels pretty okay to me, and you don't want to allow too many because of Old School Nekros Syndrome, where the spawn caps are occupied by tons and tons of Shadows of enemies that aren't being allowed to die.  Ideally, Revenant wants to cull 'em almost as fast as he makes 'em, but there's always going to be someone who's way too attached to their minions, and I really don't want them to be able to blot a map in blue dots like old-school Nekros could.

We seem to see thralls diffrently. For me Nyx values lve minions hile revenant gains more from ead ones. Post changes revenant I use Enthrall. LOTS. A damage pilalr isn't going to do much. Have a cluster of a dozen or so right in a chokepoint and it gets more fun. I like your idea of thrall sustain since that means 'they're being shot at instead of me' but that'sall i see live thralls for. I also have a problem wit hthe current cap because 'ok why have a spread mechanic with only seven? I go to enthrall a bombard or nox and i can't because i already hit the cap.' Your idea of the oldest thrall being let go would solve that. Pairing with all damage done to a thrall when it ends would also fix the problem off 'crap now i have to deal with that guy.'

57 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Actually, the latest changes made Reave track the direction of the camera on startup, which was a huge improvement.  It's still not steerable though.

Steerability or a more quick-and-punchy usage profile akin to Rhino Charge (still the gold standard of charge abilities, IMO) would go a long way to making Reave less infuriating to use.

Did not realize that. Mostly because I hate Reave's 'here we gonna go on a long ride nao' due to me picking duration for the sake of longer thrall timers. 

1 hour ago, Arkvold said:

In my mental image of them, all the effects that Reave produces should be limited to the entities touched, and last for no more than one second.  Just long enough that you can spin your camera around to look behind you and catch the aftermath of all the things you passed through - which would be immensely satisfying.  It would also allow allies to see that Revenant is doing something  when he turns translucent and slips through a pack of enemies.  In my playing of Revenant, a few people accused me of just running around and AFKing unless I used Danse Macabre, since two of Rev's abilities don't deal direct damage and Reave has no immediately-noticeable effect on enemies it passes through.

Agree. I have been focusing heavily on enthrall as opposed to dense macabre because i frankly find it boring and did even before it got made into literally the most expensive channel in the game.It's effective, but it's mobility issues, the fact it is self limiting based on revenant and level geomatry, and the fact you can't jump puts it at 'ok i pop that. everythign around me is dead. turn it off again and move.'

1 hour ago, Arkvold said:

I wouldn't be opposed to this change if it was made, but if Reave gains energy sustain by eating death effects, allowing people to short-spin it might make it overpowered again.

I think the problem was less short spinnign and more the fact people spent entire defense waves spinning and doing nothing else. Short spins to me are the proper use scenerio as that makes you go 'do i really need to spin or do i want more thralls?' Also a large part of everyone going full spin cycle was at that time it literally as his only worthwhile ability. The rest of his kit has already been improved, and it will be made even better hopefully in the next week or two.

1 hour ago, Arkvold said:

The goal wasn't really to preserve Reave's functionality, but more to put a limit on just how quickly you can regain Mesmer Skin's charges.  Right now, so long as you've got the energy, you do not die to anything except burn patches or nullifiers.  Charges are not eaten fast enough by most enemies to allow Revenant to be worn down until he's flat-broke on energy, and if Reave gets changed to allow energy sustain, Mesmer Skin falling off should never happen.

ANd this differs from Iron Skin how? Take away mesmer skin and revenant is actually a really squishy frame that's energy intensive for all the ability juggling to maximize vs Rhino's 'ok my iron skin is now. I still have a little bit of tank to survive til I get enough energy to recast.' I don't see mesmer skin's ease of use as inherently a bad thing. Revenant right now is a frame that DEMANDS a lot of ability juggling to get the most use out of so why not throw him a bone by giving him some survivability? Then again I'm an oberon player that is still bitter as hell over how 'oh you want to use this ability? to get the most out of it use that ability which adds an effective cost increase if you want to get the most out of a thing. no that's not ability dependancy you silly goon. That's synergy.' You will never convince me that making Mesmer Skin harder to use or dependant on reave to regain any charges is a good idea. We will simply have to agree to disagree on the point I am afraid.

1 hour ago, Arkvold said:

Reave's usefulness will increase when Mesmer Skin can actually fail to protect you and you'll need Reave to refill lost health and shields. 

I actually like where they are kinda going with Reave giving allies a mesmer skin charge, thereby making it have use applications even when mesmer skin is up. I'd frankly want to go a step further and have it act to scoop health/shields up out of enemies and dump that onto any ally units caught in the same cast of mesmer skin since there yo ugo, you're able to be a team player while doing a mass enemy stagger.

1 hour ago, Arkvold said:

Moreover, giving Reave energy sustain and better usability will make its usage more desirable

Given how energy hungry Revenant is, giving reave a way to schoop up energy from thralls living or dead would be more than enough of an incentive to use it. 

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Mesmer Skin on Xbox can be really obnoxious depending on the map - for some reason certain maps seem to make the fog much more dense, obscuring large amounts of the screen. If I'm not the host, the fog also remains permanently even when all charges are depleted, so I'm half-blind for the whole mission.

Maybe some kind of energy shimmer would be better?

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6 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

ANd this differs from Iron Skin how? Take away mesmer skin and revenant is actually a really squishy frame that's energy intensive for all the ability juggling to maximize vs Rhino's 'ok my iron skin is now. I still have a little bit of tank to survive til I get enough energy to recast.' I don't see mesmer skin's ease of use as inherently a bad thing. Revenant right now is a frame that DEMANDS a lot of ability juggling to get the most use out of so why not throw him a bone by giving him some survivability? Then again I'm an oberon player that is still bitter as hell over how 'oh you want to use this ability? to get the most out of it use that ability which adds an effective cost increase if you want to get the most out of a thing. no that's not ability dependancy you silly goon. That's synergy.' You will never convince me that making Mesmer Skin harder to use or dependant on reave to regain any charges is a good idea. We will simply have to agree to disagree on the point I am afraid.

Iron Skin lets you cast one and gain upwards of tens of thousands of effective HP.  Remember how old-school Nezha's Warding Halo used to invalidate the rest of his kit, since Firewalker was a channel that took away energy that could be used to refresh Halo, and Blazing Chakram's healing was useless because Nezha never took damage unless Halo dropped, in which case he died immediately?  As a result, he only used Divine Spears and Warding Halo.

Same thing here.  Mesmer Skin is such a powerful defense that it's promoting play that revolves around using it and Danse Macabre, and eschewing Enthrall and Reave entirely because thralls don't do anything you can't do better yourself.

Only Rhino should have Iron Skin levels of damage absorption.  Nezha got bumped down to 90% on Halo, but in return got healing and sustain from Blazing Chakram to make up the difference.  I see Revenant the same way - there should be gaps in Mesmer Skin's defenses, that will get him worn down, hurt or killed if not accounted for, and that you can use Reave to make up for or avoid.  I see it as a healthy change that will still leave Revenant extremely tanky, but ensure he can't just use Mesmer Skin and Danse Macabre to be brain-dead.

With the changes I proposed to Reave, Reave will be much more attractive on its own merits, as well.  It promotes natural synergy between Reave, Enthrall, and Mesmer Skin - Mesmer skin stuns enemies and makes them targets for Enthrall, Enthrall makes them into health, shield, and energy batteries, Reave harvests those and gives charges back to Mesmer Skin, letting it continue the cycle.  Danse Macabre, then, becomes your "oh s---" button for situations where everything around you, thrall or otherwise, needs to die.

The problem with Mesmer Skin's survivability is the way it scales.  While it's up and has charges, you don't take damage no matter how hard you're hit, unless it's from the few attacks that can bypass Mesmer Skin's effect.  Mesmer Skin says "the next X hits don't affect you" - no matter how powerful they are, and furthermore it CCs those who try, to ensure they can't rapidly deplete its charges via a high fire rate.  If you can keep that kind of durability up with no gaps and no downtime, there's no point to Reave or Danse Macabre providing any sort of healing, because you're never going to get hurt.  You're going to out-tank Rhino and that's inexcusable.  Being a busy frame is no justification for having that sort of tanking ability.  Keep in mind - Rhino cannot recast Iron Skin without an augment.  Inaros can't recast Scarab Swarm without eating into his own health.  Nezha can't recast Warding Halo at all.  Chroma cannot recast Vex Armor or Elemental Ward.  Revenant is one of the few frames with a primary tanking power that can recast it at will with no penalty.

Revenant's hardly squishy - it's not hard at all to get him over 900 shields, 700 health and 200 armor, which isn't terrifyingly strong protection, but it's competent, even above-average, considering his powers.  With Mesmer Skin, that kind of defense lasts a while, and even with these changes, Mesmer Skin will be quite powerful.  You just need to keep an eye on it and either Reave victims, or find cover to drop and recast it when it is in danger of breaking, instead of being able to stand out in the open and pop it back to full instantly and at no risk when it's down a couple charges.  Mesmer Skin will still function just fine without Reave, so long as you remember to seek safety when you want to refill it so that you don't get caught with your pants down.

 

6 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

I actually like where they are kinda going with Reave giving allies a mesmer skin charge, thereby making it have use applications even when mesmer skin is up. I'd frankly want to go a step further and have it act to scoop health/shields up out of enemies and dump that onto any ally units caught in the same cast of mesmer skin since there yo ugo, you're able to be a team player while doing a mass enemy stagger.

Given how energy hungry Revenant is, giving reave a way to schoop up energy from thralls living or dead would be more than enough of an incentive to use it. 

I love the fact that you can share Mesmer Skin with allies via Reave.  Currently, it's the only reason why I even use Reave at all.  The idea of dumping health and shields that he can't take for himself onto nearby allies would be great.

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Chroma CAN recast VEX armor, just not Elemental ward, at least in my version of the game =_O

Vex Armor is a one-handed action. As such, it can be used while performing various maneuvers and actions without interruption.

Vex Armor can be recast while active.

 

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2 hours ago, Arkvold said:

Mesmer Skin is such a powerful defense that it's promoting play that revolves around using it and Danse Macabre, and eschewing Enthrall and Reave entirely because thralls don't do anything you can't do better yourself.

I use thralls constantly in conjunction with mesmer skin since thralls means the enemies are activly not shooting at me. Plus on low level missions thralls are actually capible of doing damage. Plus in survival and intercept their on death state is still useful. Granted the damage is far from great, but it's still SOMETHING, and thrall is relatively cheap. Fine I refresh mesmer if i'm five charges or under but the only skill i don't use is Reave and that's due to hwo clunky it is. Make it either sterrable, a shorter zip dash, or preferrably a bit of both, and i'd be more than happy to zoop through hordesof enemies u p and down a hall. If it gave energy for zooping thralls that would be even BETTER since Revenant is an energy hungry frame even with arcane energize on.

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Adding frustration and "Artificial" challenge by removing the possibility of refreshing Mesmer Skin is stupid  an extremely BAD idea. Unlike duration based defensive buffs (splinter storm, turbulence, etc.), you can't just hide behind cover when the duration is about to end in order to recast it while safe. You need an enemy to finish off your charges before recasting which means CONFIRMED death in endgame missions where a single burst from a single enemy is enough to down anybody that doesn't have crazy high EHP and enemies come in packs.

Add this to the fact that while using DM you cannot refresh mesmer skin charges as you cannot enthrall new enemies and you have a recipe for disaster. If you have some charges left but want to go in DM, nah-ha. Forget it pall! Your charges will run out quickly and you'll get killed faster than you can react. Therefore, as you wouldn't be able to refresh your charges, you will have to spam enthrall then reave through them (if they haven't stupidly ran off and scattered near instantly) to regain SOME charges which barely hold in late game with LOTS of enemies/AoEs hitting you at once. That's EXTREMELY energy inefficient and time consuming on top of being tedious and annoying. Also, Rev's animations are "mentally-challenged" kind of slow. 

Brings absolutely NOTHING to the gameplay experience. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Don't ask for Mesmer Skin nerfs but rather buffs to the rest of his kit, exactly as I explained in an earlier post:
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1001379-pc-update-235-revenant-feedback-megathread/?page=65&tab=comments#comment-10150655

 

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