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[DE]Marcus

[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

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56 minutes ago, arm4geddon-117 said:

Chroma CAN recast VEX armor, just not Elemental ward, at least in my version of the game =_O

Vex Armor is a one-handed action. As such, it can be used while performing various maneuvers and actions without interruption.

Vex Armor can be recast while active.

Well, I'll stand corrected on that.  Was that changed at some point since the last time I played Chroma?  I need to review patch notes, and maybe pull Chroma out of mothballs and refresh my memory on how he works.

Regardless, if this is the case, he's the only 'frame I know of that allows a primary defensive power to be recasted without dropping it first or having some other penalty.  Further, he has to build Vex Armor up; Mesmer Skin is like Iron Skin or Warding Halo - cast it and go.  Chroma still has 'weak points' in his defenses (taking too much damage prior to Vex Armor being fully saturated; allowing Vex Armor to collapse without being refreshed which would necessitate rebuilding it) that he has to account for.  Revenant currently doesn't, and that strikes me as being rather strong for a 'frame that has so much else going for it at the same time.

5 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

I use thralls constantly in conjunction with mesmer skin since thralls means the enemies are activly not shooting at me. Plus on low level missions thralls are actually capible of doing damage. Plus in survival and intercept their on death state is still useful. Granted the damage is far from great, but it's still SOMETHING, and thrall is relatively cheap. Fine I refresh mesmer if i'm five charges or under but the only skill i don't use is Reave and that's due to hwo clunky it is. Make it either sterrable, a shorter zip dash, or preferrably a bit of both, and i'd be more than happy to zoop through hordesof enemies u p and down a hall. If it gave energy for zooping thralls that would be even BETTER since Revenant is an energy hungry frame even with arcane energize on.

I'm not specifically talking about you when I say that Mesmer skin's strength is promoting the use of it and Danse Macabre.  I'm speaking more in the general sense.  Most people, especially those without Zenurik, look at the busywork of Enthrall and Reave and the relative simplicity of Mesmer Skin and Danse Macabre, and just opt to use the latter two - it saves on energy, provides CC, and deals massive adapting damage.

My goal with my suggestions is to make Reave more desirable to use and grant much-needed energy sustain to Revenant's kit, eliminate some of the busywork of managing thralls and make them more effective at their jobs, justify the busywork that remains by making thralls and Reave genuinely potent combat options, and make Mesmer Skin less of an invulnerability button that lets Revenant out-tank Rhino and thus makes Reave's healing and Danse Macabre's shield heals more valuable for Revenant's ongoing survival.

 

2 minutes ago, VieuxPappy said:

Adding frustration and "Artificial" challenge by removing the possibility of refreshing Mesmer Skin is stupid  an extremely BAD idea. Unlike duration based defensive buffs (splinter storm, turbulence, etc.), you can't just hide behind cover when the duration is about to end in order to recast it while safe. You need an enemy to finish off your charges before recasting which means CONFIRMED death in endgame missions where a single burst from a single enemy is enough to down anybody that doesn't have crazy high EHP and enemies come in packs.

Do you know how Mesmer Skin works?  A single enemy cannot 'burst' a user with Mesmer skin so long as it has at least a fraction of a charge left (charge count will read zero, but you still get one freebie).  They get stunned after one hit.

Further, removing recasting was only one possibility.  The other one, which in turn I like better thinking on it, and I want you to read this carefully: Mesmer Skin remains recastable, but must be shed before it can be recasted.  Think Rhino's Iron Shrapnel augment - cast once to activate, again to remove, once more to refresh.  So yes, you can hide in cover and refresh Mesmer skin, because you can choose to drop it and refresh it, you just have to spend the time for casting animations to complete.

 

2 minutes ago, VieuxPappy said:

Add this to the fact that while using DM you cannot refresh mesmer skin charges as you cannot enthrall new enemies and you have a recipe for disaster. If you have some charges left but want to go in DM, nah-ha. Forget it pall! Your charges will run out quickly and you'll get killed faster than you can react. Therefore, as you wouldn't be able to refresh your charges, you will have to spam enthrall then reave through them (if they haven't stupidly ran off and scattered near instantly) to regain SOME charges which barely hold in late game with LOTS of enemies/AoEs hitting you at once. That's EXTREMELY energy inefficient and time consuming on top of being tedious and annoying. Also, Rev's animations are "mentally-challenged" kind of slow.

You're not supposed to be using Danse Macabre and any other abilities except Reave at the same time.  If Revenant could use all of his abilities during Danse Macabre, he'd be completely and utterly overpowered beyond any currently existing Warframe and would be nerfed into the ground almost immediately.

If you need to refresh Mesmer Skin, you simply stop spinning, enthrall some things that Mesmer Skin has stunned while you're spinning, then Reave them.  Or find a quiet spot away from the enemies to shut off Mesmer Skin and reactivate it before it expires.  Under my suggestions, Reave is an option, for those who want to stay in the thick of the fight and still gain Mesmer Skin charges; they just won't get their full charges back unless they Reave a full complement of Thralls a couple times.  If they want the full set back, they have to step out of combat for a breather, refresh Mesmer Skin somewhere safe, and then return.

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il y a 16 minutes, Arkvold a dit :

 

1)Do you know how Mesmer Skin works?  A single enemy cannot 'burst' a user with Mesmer skin so long as it has at least a fraction of a charge left (charge count will read zero, but you still get one freebie).  They get stunned after one hit.

2)Further, removing recasting was only one possibility.  The other one, which in turn I like better thinking on it, and I want you to read this carefully: Mesmer Skin remains recastable, but must be shed before it can be recasted.  Think Rhino's Iron Shrapnel augment - cast once to activate, again to remove, once more to refresh.  So yes, you can hide in cover and refresh Mesmer skin, because you can choose to drop it and refresh it, you just have to spend the time for casting animations to complete.

 

3)You're not supposed to be using Danse Macabre and any other abilities except Reave at the same time.  If Revenant could use all of his abilities during Danse Macabre, he'd be completely and utterly overpowered beyond any currently existing Warframe and would be nerfed into the ground almost immediately.

4)If you need to refresh Mesmer Skin, you simply stop spinning, enthrall some things that Mesmer Skin has stunned while you're spinning, then Reave them.  Or find a quiet spot away from the enemies to shut off Mesmer Skin and reactivate it before it expires.  Under my suggestions, Reave is an option, for those who want to stay in the thick of the fight and still gain Mesmer Skin charges; they just won't get their full charges back unless they Reave a full complement of Thralls a couple times.  If they want the full set back, they have to step out of combat for a breather, refresh Mesmer Skin somewhere safe, and then return.

I'v seperated the sections I will address as 1 to 4 from your quote.

1)You missunderstood what I said. I totally know how Rev's ability works. What I said is, in endgame missions, finding a single enemy to finish off your last charge (or finding the exact amount of enemies as your amount of charges left) is near impossible.

2)Having to "shed" mesmer skin before recasting forces 2 animation casts. Rev already has incredibly (and I'm putting it extremely lightly here) slow animations and having to go through 2  animations would be uselessly painful and would go against what the devs want the game to be: fluid and fast pace. If they go that route, they NEED to make the animations AT THE VERY LEAST half the duration of what they currently are and make the "shedding" instant. Hell, even without any changes, they need to make all of Rev's abilities cast faster. Being forced to use Natural Talent for endgame is really a bad design, limbo syndrome all over again. 

 

3)I know that's why his 1 needs the changes from the person I quoted in my previous post. In short: if an enemy dies while enthralled, he leaves behind a damaging pillar which sends seeking darts as it currently does ingame but ALSO makes it so the now-dead thrall becomes an invincible vomvalyst (like they are in PoE while in their blue shade form) for the remainder of the Enthrall duration.  A vomvalyst that attacks an enemy will enthrall him and said vomvalyst dies. Enthralling a new enemy when there's already 7 thralls/vomvs, will replace a vomv with new thrall. This is to keep the cap of 7 thralls/vomv at all time. Reaving through Vomvalysts gives the same benefit as reaving through thralls: a Mesmer Charge. This will increase the synergy between all of his abilities.

Only once this is done that we could maybe think of forcing Rev to "shed" his mesmer skin before refreshing his charges. Also, do note that unlike a lot of defensive buffs in the game, Mesmer skin only protects against DIRECT damage, indirect sources aren't affected in any way and it also only protects him until he eats a damage number that exceeds his EHP which is quite low as shield is near worthless endgame and he doesn't have enough armor + health to be worth using fiber and vitality.

Finally, DM sucks big time compared to pretty much every single other frame's ult that are "nukes". Mesa's 4 does everything DM does and does it better for a fraction of the energy cost, same for Saryn's 4, etc.

4)See my suggestions. DM locks the verticality and movement of Rev way too hard for the amount of energy spent, damage dealt and the fact that he can't even hit enemies above and bellow him. It needs several changes, see my previous post I linked earlier, here it is https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1001379-pc-update-235-revenant-feedback-megathread/?page=65&tab=comments#comment-10150655.

 

Rev needs several buffs before we could even think about removing his mesmer skin refresh. 

 

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Can You (D.E) make Enthralled enemies take less damage from allies or make them like Nyx mind controlled allies, where the damage done to them by Other tenno is negated but stored, so when the Enthrall duration ends, it unleashes all that stacked damage on them in 1 shot. If you would damage the Thrall, u still should be able to do normal damage to them so it doesn't interfere with his kit.

I love making a army with him but every time I try to make a army of enemies, my allies kill of the enemy off before enthrall spreads, and it is really annoying cause I don't want to build around his 4th ability. If you (D.E) can't do it, I understand why, its just a request

 

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5 hours ago, Arkvold said:

Well, I'll stand corrected on that.  Was that changed at some point since the last time I played Chroma?  I need to review patch notes, and maybe pull Chroma out of mothballs and refresh my memory on how he works.

Regardless, if this is the case, he's the only 'frame I know of that allows a primary defensive power to be recasted without dropping it first or having some other penalty.  Further, he has to build Vex Armor up; Mesmer Skin is like Iron Skin or Warding Halo - cast it and go.  Chroma still has 'weak points' in his defenses (taking too much damage prior to Vex Armor being fully saturated; allowing Vex Armor to collapse without being refreshed which would necessitate rebuilding it) that he has to account for.  Revenant currently doesn't, and that strikes me as being rather strong for a 'frame that has so much else going for it at the same time.

I'm not specifically talking about you when I say that Mesmer skin's strength is promoting the use of it and Danse Macabre.  I'm speaking more in the general sense.  Most people, especially those without Zenurik, look at the busywork of Enthrall and Reave and the relative simplicity of Mesmer Skin and Danse Macabre, and just opt to use the latter two - it saves on energy, provides CC, and deals massive adapting damage.

My goal with my suggestions is to make Reave more desirable to use and grant much-needed energy sustain to Revenant's kit, eliminate some of the busywork of managing thralls and make them more effective at their jobs, justify the busywork that remains by making thralls and Reave genuinely potent combat options, and make Mesmer Skin less of an invulnerability button that lets Revenant out-tank Rhino and thus makes Reave's healing and Danse Macabre's shield heals more valuable for Revenant's ongoing survival.

 

Do you know how Mesmer Skin works?  A single enemy cannot 'burst' a user with Mesmer skin so long as it has at least a fraction of a charge left (charge count will read zero, but you still get one freebie).  They get stunned after one hit.

Further, removing recasting was only one possibility.  The other one, which in turn I like better thinking on it, and I want you to read this carefully: Mesmer Skin remains recastable, but must be shed before it can be recasted.  Think Rhino's Iron Shrapnel augment - cast once to activate, again to remove, once more to refresh.  So yes, you can hide in cover and refresh Mesmer skin, because you can choose to drop it and refresh it, you just have to spend the time for casting animations to complete.

 

You're not supposed to be using Danse Macabre and any other abilities except Reave at the same time.  If Revenant could use all of his abilities during Danse Macabre, he'd be completely and utterly overpowered beyond any currently existing Warframe and would be nerfed into the ground almost immediately.

If you need to refresh Mesmer Skin, you simply stop spinning, enthrall some things that Mesmer Skin has stunned while you're spinning, then Reave them.  Or find a quiet spot away from the enemies to shut off Mesmer Skin and reactivate it before it expires.  Under my suggestions, Reave is an option, for those who want to stay in the thick of the fight and still gain Mesmer Skin charges; they just won't get their full charges back unless they Reave a full complement of Thralls a couple times.  If they want the full set back, they have to step out of combat for a breather, refresh Mesmer Skin somewhere safe, and then return.

Recasting mesmer already does leave you vulnerable for a short time. Also reave is mainly a mobility tool for danse macabre so idk why you're trying suggest the idea of nerfing mesmer skin just so reave is used more. Plus reave when used can give allies and companions 1 mesmer skin charge while mesmer skin is active. Although it may not be much for allies but it sure is pretty valuable for preventing you're sentinel or teammates sentinels from getting 1 shotted.

The only thing that actually needs to be tweaked here are revenants thralls and pet A.I. Trying to nerf mesmer skin just so reave is more heavily focused on is a pretty bad idea. Reave does what it does best and that is providing danse macabre mobility along with having the bonus of giving your allies/companions a mesmer skin charge while mesmer skin is active.

 

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After thinking about it more, I now have a different outlook on Revenant, and why I think he doesn't work.

Overall I'm kind of confused about what Revenant's primary gameplay style is supposed to be.
On the surface he's another disposable minion-frame like Nekros, and Nyx. But his 2 suggests a Tank role. Mesmer skin provides survivability almost on par with Ironskin (since the buff at least). His 3 being a lifesteal ability further cements him as a tank (or it should anyways. I talk about it later). His 4 is essentially a more powerful version of Inaros' 3 which gives him some much needed crowd control capability. you can use his 3 with it to gain distance, and mesmer skin will let you use it without dying from longer range attacks. These 3 abilities have great synergy with each other.. but where's his 1? 

Whatever synergy his 1 has with his other abilities seem very 'workaroundy'. There is forced synergy, but the abilities still work against each other. Let's compare to Saryn. Her 4 doesn't synergize well with her 1 because it makes magic mushrooms that give you health, (while also removing the spores from every enemy her 4 affects). It synergizes well because viral halves an enemy's health while the spores do DOT damage. her 4 halves the amount of time it takes for her 1 to dissolve an enemy. There's a flow there, because the usage of Saryn's 4 doesn't hinder the usage of her 1. it enhances it. 

I'm not saying the improvised synergies there are bad on their own. Getting overshield pickups from killing thralls with his 4 is pretty powerful after all. The problem is there is no natural synergy to these abilities.In fact they seem to work against each other. using his 4 to kill all of your minions around you feels counterproductive, because you typically end up placing pillars in useless places. (placing pillars in useful places is already hard imo)  But at the same time, not using his 4 is counterproductive because of how powerful it is. And I can't just quickly cast his 1. I have to wait for it to spread a bit. (I'd like more than 3 shield  orbs please.) On top of this, the new addition of making the pillars explode when his 4 sweeps over them, makes this even more counterproductive. Instead of getting a shield pickup in addition to a pillar, you're getting a shield pickup instead of a pillar. 

Also, his 1 is used more like a liability than a power in some situations. His 3 specifically suffers from this. it is nearly worthless without using it on thralls. Going back to saryn as an example, her 4 maybe more effective against spored enemies, but it also isn't awful against unspored enemies. Even if it was, the ability functionally works better when dealing with moving targets. (a radial attack vs. a straight line dash attack) In the case of Revenant, you are forced to move in a straight line, meanwhile your thralls might be all over the place. Which means this ability has minimal synergy, but is treated as if it synergies almost too well without this serious hamper on the effectiveness of his 3. Like Saryn, this ability needs to be effective on its own, but more effective when used in conjunction with his 1. 

...oh yeah and his 2 makes his 1 free I guess. It maybe boring, but it's still better than how his 1 and 3, and 1 and 4 abilities work together.

Overall I think Revenant needs some serious rethinking. Perhaps making the minions more permanent than disposable, and overall more reliable, could create some better synergy for his other abilities.
 

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OK Just to Reiterate some pretty solid ideas I'd seen going around here and around. Please note most of thee are actually other people's ideas I've seen, and happen to agree with. I'm simply signal boosting because I want revenant to be better than he is now, but I don't want him to become overpowered as a result.

  • Thrall:

Make the minions store all incoming damage until Thrall Ends and it's all delt all at once like nidus's parasitic link and nyx's mind control. that INSTANTLY solves the thrall lifespan problem and means you don't have to give them any sort of damage reduction, and most likely they're dead at the end of the thrall timer, which leads me to the second thrall idea. 

The timer for any and all active thralls resetting whenever a new thrall is made. This both means something like a bombard or Nox end up taking more damage due to that thrall timer resetting constantly so they're more likely to actually die, and makes the hard cap of seven thralls less irksome since they'll actually hang around. This also solves the problem of thralls surviving defense/interception waves since soon enemies will show back up and you'll want to make a new thrall or two anyway, which gives your current thralls a timer refresh.

To help with the fact he only has seven thralls. Casting thrall either to make a new thrall or when there's no trget teleports all of revenant's thralls to his current location. These guys are CC after all, so they're not drawing aggro off of him if they're over at the last excivator or bounty's location instead of where he is.

The On Death state currently is better than it initially was. However there's some fairy, in my opinion, bad power interactio nbetween it and dense macabre in that you can't currently choose t not detonate any pillars. So instead make the pillar detonation move so that you have to use its click/hold function to detonate. Otherwise the pillars are left alone.

Speaking off the pillars either their damage type needs to depend the type of enemy that formed the pillar (grineer dealing corrosive, corpus magnetic, infested gas) or the shots doing damage like revenant's 4 does.

To help with this department either increase the range pillars seeking shots fire from, or increase their fire rate at the expense of damage per shot (so that their overal DPS remains the same but there's more actually happening.)

  • Mesmer Skin:

 

I... actually think this one is in a solid place now for the most part.

Something that has been brought up elsewhere. Can Mesmer Skin protect from one-shots that exceed your EHP... like... oh... from the death lasers in void defense, high level nullifier snipers, your own phantasm and the like? Actually pretty sure the last is why it's ehp instead of true 'anything no matter how hard it hits will be soaked' because of self damaging mechanic with weapons. It really is infuriating that self damaging weapons go through all of your mesmer skin to kill you instead of 'oh hey I lost a charge.' Can that be redone? Please?

When the last charge is consumed you get an AoE that staggers enemies within a five meter radius. Revenant is still vulnerable during the recast time as he is now, but if he's swarmed he has that little bit of breathing room from the closest enemies. Frankly he shouldh ave thralls drawing aggro, but given how energy hungry revenant is, these situations do pop up.

  • Reave:

Reave needs to be able to climb. It's already limited by how much energy you have plus the fact being able to 'fly' isn't all that game busting given Void Mode can dash, Nezha's ring can teleport, ditto with loki, zephyr's built around it, and titania can literally fly as an ability. This would be a great mobility boost.

Furthermore currently it's an uncontrollable mess beyond when you start and when you stop. Giving it some steerability would greatly help since dashing off a cliff because you misjudged distances and forgot to early cancel sucks, and constantly reaving into walls isn't fun either.

Maybe in addition to reave healing Revenant and giving mesmer skin charges if you have mesmer skin up, reave gives any HP/Shields to allies if Revenant is at full? I'm talking Allies, Nekros Minions, Clemmings, Excivators, etc. Doing this would be fairly annoying compared to oberon or trinity's heals since it depends on a crowd existing in the same place as your heal targets. However it would give me more of an incentive than 'oh hey you can regain mesmer skin charges while using an ability we don't actually want you to use.'

Allow Reave to flow over objects. Maybe not true flying like Wukong's clowd walker, but being able to use reave to climb obsticals would be a great mobility boost when in dense macabre.

  • Dense Macabre:

I'm going to be blunt. The blanket 'here let's bump this abilitys cost to be the most expensive channel in the game' was stupid and a blunt reaction to the fact that at the time this was literally his best skill due to adaptive damage outut. It does not have the range other ultimates have, greatly limits revenant's mobility, locks revenant players out of interactions, and in short has enough downsides that the cost at a flat value is unjustifiable.

Keep in mind I said 'at flat value.' To discourage players staying in dense mecabre for the entire defense/interception wave or ballet twirl around the camping spot in a survival mission lets take a page from Ember. Give dense mecabre a ramping energy cost from its original value or maybe a little less, to what it is now. ALong with this give it a ramping damage output from its current value to what its current click/hold damage values are (with the click hold doing even more.) This allows dense macabre to be used tactically while giving value to holding it, but makes players have to judge if that's worth doing or not. To help players get a visual indicator of this ramp up have the camera draw back, there eing some sclight screen shake along with eidolon noises, more ofa punchy base-y sound on laser impact, and or any other things that would make the ramp-up convey a sense of ominous near uncontrollable power being used.

SInce revenant cannot recast mesmer skin and this ability by its nature tends to kill thralls (Making reave's current interaction of 'reave through thralls to recover mesmer charges' kinda pointless currently) why not allow it to consume thrall death pillars to restore mesmer skin charges? Granted if the above changes of thralls storing damage were to happen Reave's mesmer skin charge mechanic would hold. However I prefer a simpler approach of simply allowing you to use mesmer skin while in dense macabre since why bolt on added features to incentivize an ability to be used? Generally that to me is a sign the core ability is bad and the bolted on features are 'see! you can do this with it! plz use this.' I fel this is the wrong approach. Make Reave something we want to use on its own as opposed to forcing it to have a function by disabling another ability then going 'yea but you dan do this with this ability you overlooked.'

  • Passive:

Even in ESO i still can't ever tell when this thing goes off. Not the worst thing in the world since a lot of frames have junk passives, but if I'm going to talk about what revenant is like now I'm going to mention his passive. The idea is interesting. Maybe bump up the radius on enemies affected that gets weaker as you're further away (like Banshee's quake augment)? I dunno.

In my opinion, a better passive would be for revenant's shields affected by his armor. This gives him something unique and would help with survivability in instances where mesmer skin is down and you can't recast.


He's fun. I like him. I can just see ways to make him better, hopefully without making him busted

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After the latest rework...

Enthrawl: Thrawls, still have the exact same issue as release, they die too soon in most cases.  We lose our energy cost if they enemy we're casting on dies before we complete the cast (why is this still a thing, ash had it fixed for bladestorm). 

The towers left on death could do with a damage buff or something for higher levels imo, maybe change the way they interact with dance macabre to have their damage buffed and refresh duration on contact with dance macabre rather than them exploding, this exploding aspect removes their crowd control play style. 

Mesmer Skin: I would still like to have integers on my mesmer skin, this decimal point value for charges is to put it bluntly just stupid when it takes a full charge on damage.  I do like the recast of mesmer skin though.

Reave: I'd still like some 'control' over where it goes or at the very least the ability to 'cancel' the move (with partial refund of energy) if it gets stuck on a wall or an object or something, it happens pretty frequently too. 

Dance Macabre: I'd still like some 'verticality' to it, at the very least the ability to get over a small step would be nice but I'd ideally also like the lasers to reach upwards a little too. 

Passive: Still might as well not have one....I don't even think I've seen it trigger because we're pretty much always running mesmer skin.  Think it needs a different one in all honesty.

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So after playing with revenant tirelessly for a few days now I think I finally found the source of why he just feels "weird". Something just doesn't add up with his supposed ability and play style. Lets discuss his first ability because I feel that this is the primary issue.

Passive: In short, I've never seen this actually matter. The knockdown duration must be incredibly short, or it must not effect all basic enemy types. 

Enthrall: Enthrall needs to be one of two things; 1) remove the duration: it just doesn't make sense for an ability to have an enemy limit, a health limit (due to enemy health), and a time limit. Anything that goes off with one of these thing instantly cancels the ability. In such a fast paced combat scenario you end up burning through energy trying to keep thralls. 2) remove the enemy limit: instead of changing duration, if the enemy limit was removed the meta would shift to the second part of the ability which would create these energy waves that damage nearby targets. So it would become a means to spread as many of these tornado things as possible giving either a damage over time field (which saryn has anyway essentially) or a wide CC (which many other frames have). To avoid potential issues you could also slightly shorten the duration but enemies don't make thralls incredibly fast so it wont be much of an issue if they all share a timer. 

Speaking of timers, why does the free thrall cast have an average 4-7 second duration? Kinda defeats the purpose of the free cast if its barely effective right? I believe this was an unintentional bug because it truly just doesn't make sense... 

Mesmer Skin: some attacks go right through and no damage is reflected. Not sure if this was intentional or not but grenades and other explosives, certain grabs from certain enemies (eximus ancients, scorpion grineer), and some pets attacks go right through. This needs to either be stated that it deosnt defend against certain attacks, or it needs to be cleaned up.

Reave: This ability for what it gives is not worth the energy cost. It seems more useful to get out of a corner than healing. Part of this has to do with Enthrall's various issues though so I would test it out after reworking that.

Danse Macabre: Cant complain about this move too much. It works. Only thing is sometimes the overshield pickups fall through the floor or some enemies weirdly walk through without getting damaged at all. But just a few tweaks. 

In closing, I've been playing warframe going on about 5 years now. I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. Revenant just needs a few tweaks. He's a really cool idea and would be fun to play after a bit of fixing

 

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Revenant is in a decent state right now with the 4 but his thralls still don't provide much on death. The fire pillars are so small that they only work in doorways and the projectiles have horrible range(and damage). 

Also, the pillars dispersing with the 4 seems like a loss. If you have a wall of pillars blocking a door and decide to use the 4, you only end up losing the pillars and the 4 kills them directly. If that's the case, why not just use the 4 alone? Could the 4 just buff the pillars instead of destroying them?

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Revenant can have up to 7 thralls....Not four. He was updated recently. The tornados work as a general deterrant, but they aren't practical. The point of fixing revenant is to make him to applicable and practical. 

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Remove the timer on his one and make it spread on death, so we could actually breathe instead of casting over and over again his one since the thralls usually don't have the time to spread, so you end up with one pillar, with homing missile that surely are doing some dmg every 4 SECONDS and 10 seconds later, after killing 6-7 ennemies, it is gone.
It's boring to always watch the thrall count only to see "1" and the second after seeing " " because it died from an unknown danger, and now you need to recast it only for it to die again without even contaminating anyone...

I mean, saryn is broken as #*!% and can AFK nuke entire rooms, why rev can't just have it's thrall automatically spread on death ?
It's not overpowered, seriously...

And the free cast while the mobs are hitting mesmer skin IS NOT USEFUL AT AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL !!!
It never served me, and I never said  "oh, it looks like I have mesmer skin active, and some mobs are now free to enthrall, let's look among the 68541468 corpus here to see who hit me and who is now free to enthrall" !!!!!
Seriously, take a real look at him, or just let it be a mr fodder.

Right now rev is ok, but not fun, ending pressing 4 only because the pillars aren't doing any dmg on high lvl ennemies because of impact proc is stupid.
But we'll probably wait 2 years before we can hear DE say: "oh, it looks like rev is not as fun as we thought" well, that's what everyone said when it came out.
And even after those reworks, wich are totally appreciated, he is still not fun, he is not adding anything new, and i'll certainly not pick him over nyx because nyx is funnier than this broken mess.

And, seriously, even when I watched prime time with "new" rev, you can't tell me that it was fun to play, seriously.
 

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Does anyone here find it ironic that the two known enemies (Nullies/Kuva Guardians) that can by bypass his defenses(Mesmer Skin) are also immune to his passive which is supposed to protect him when his shields break? 

Change his passive to DR on shields breaking. For example: 90% DR for 3 seconds when Revenant's shields are depleted. Cannot occur more than once every 7 seconds (To not make it op with Augur set/Guardian/Arcane Aegis/Shield restores)

 

 

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Can DE buff Revenants first ability so that he can charge it and then release it to enthrall a group of enemies in a cone.

i think that would be a cool idea and would be better than button mashing his first ability

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26 minutes ago, (PS4)creeperdude36 said:

Can DE buff Revenants first ability so that he can charge it and then release it to enthrall a group of enemies in a cone.

i think that would be a cool idea and would be better than button mashing his first ability

Never thought of that. What an excellent Idea! The base problem with the thrall limit themselves would still exist. But that would at least make creating thralls less tedious.

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I think part of the reason it's so hard to nail down what changes Revenant needs, not only to be good, but to be fun, is because he severely lacks an identity.  He's got vampire, minion commander, and Eidolon themes, yet none of them are fully envisioned.  In addition, it's hard to tell what his gameplay role is.  He's got tanking abilities that rival Rhino, but also limited crowd control and damage that becomes a lot less relevant at higher levels.  Realistically, there's no reason to use him over any other Warframe other than because he looks cool (and I'll admit, he DOES look cool, and that is why I want him to be good!).  After reading this thread through for a while and doing some thinking on my own, I think these changes would not only make him good, but fun and unique too.  I'm going to describe using ability descriptions, then I will list off any major changes involving numbers or behavior.  You can see how this is different from current Revenant by looking at the wiki.

Also, if a number is in bold text, it scales with Strength/Range/Duration/Efficiency and will be labeled as such.  New additions are in italic text.  If text is in bold and italic text, it is a new mechanic I want to introduce.

Retaliation (Passive)When his Shield depletes, Revenant emits a radial blast that knocks down nearby enemies.

Enthrall - In a range of 10/15/20/25 (Range) meters, convert a target into a zealous Thrall for 15/20/25/30 (Duration) seconds.  Thralls focus solely on chasing and attacking Revenant, and Revenant deals 20%/30%/40%/50% increased damage to Thralls.  On death, a percentage of their maximum shields and health is stored as Eidolon Essence and they disintegrate into a damaging Pillar of energy with a radius of 1/2/2/3 (Range) meters for 15 (Duration) seconds.  Enemies damaged by Pillars also become Enthralled.  The thrall horde will focus their efforts on Revenant until this Ability runs out.

Change Details:

  • Thralls have to be within 30 meters of Revenant or must have line of sight on him, or else they lose focus and will attack other targets/revert to standard mob behavior.  The distance is likely something that needs tweaking as I am not 100% sure what would be balanced, but for design purposes it should be static and not scale with Range.
  • Thralls don't try to turn alarms on, hide behind cover, or any miscellaneous actions.  The only thing they want to do is kill Revenant, even if it's futile.
  • Thrall count is uncapped.  And if it wasn't crystal-clear, Thralls don't spread by attacking each other anymore.  The damage of Pillars, both from the Pillar itself and their homing projectiles, spreads Enthrall.
  • The damaging Pillars now deal Corrosive damage to Armored enemies, Magnetic damage to Shielded enemies, and Heat damage to Infested and enemies lacking shields or armor, just like Danse Macabre.  Pillars still do 250/500/750/1000 (Strength) damage per second.
  • Damaging Pillars are no longer detonated by Danse Macabre.  Instead, Danse Macabre increases their area of effect.

Mesmer Skin - Become enveloped in Sentient energy, which reflects 90% of damage and stuns all those who dare attack for 2/3/4/5 (Duration) seconds.  Enthrall can be cast on a stunned enemy to Enthrall all stunned enemies at no cost.  In addition, any damage reflected by Mesmer Skin is stored as Eidolon Essence.

Change Details:

  • Mesmer Skin still operates on charges.  Mesmer Skin reflects 3/5/6/8 (Strength) incoming enemy attacks.
  • Attacks can no longer bypass Mesmer Skin if they exceed his EHP or come from a Nullifier.
  • Can still be recasted to refresh his charges. 

Reave - Dash through enemies as a wall of Sentient energy with a width of 3/4/5/6 meters, leeching 2/4/6/8 percent of shields and health from any encountered enemies, enhanced to 10/20/30/40 percent for Thralls.  In addition, Reave restores 15 (Strength) energy to Revenant for each Thrall leeched.

Change Details:

  • Reave will move over bumps in terrain rather than get stuck on them.
  • Reave can be cast to move vertically as well as horizontally.  Still affected by gravity though.  The reason for this, is if you Aim Glide during Reave, you negate gravity.  This gives players the option to either follow gravity or ignore it.
  • Reave still restores Mesmer Skin charges for each leeched Thrall.
  • Reave's cast delay is lowered (or possibly instant?  Anything to make it feel less sluggish).
  • Reave does not refund energy during Danse Macabre, even if Reave leeches Thralls.

Danse Macabre - Erupt with a multitude of Eidolon energy beams and sweep a circle of death around Revenant. The beams deal 500/750/1,000/1,250 (Strength) damage per second and will modify their Damage Type to target select defenses. Hold fire to double Danse Macabre's base damage, status effects, energy cost, and increase Danse Macabre's damage further by releasing stored Eidolon Essence.  Thralls killed by this leave overshield pickups that restore 50 (Strength) shields.

Change Details:

  • Energy cost changed to ramp up the longer Danse Macabre is active.  Starts at 10 (Efficiency/Duration) energy per second, increasing by 1 (Efficiency/Duration) energy per second, up to a maximum of 20 (Efficiency/Duration) energy per second.
  • Laser range and Beam width are unchanged, and still scale with Range.
  • The damage increase from reflected damage on Danse Macabre has been moved to Enthrall and Mesmer Skin in the form of Eidolon Essence, a mechanic that allows Revenant to stack damage for Danse Macabre and release it on command (aka Holding Fire during Danse Macabre).
  • The damage adaptation of Danse Macabre (and now Enthrall's Pillars) has been changed to Corrosive damage against Armored enemies, Magnetic damage against Shielded enemies, and Heat damage against Infested or enemies lacking shields and armor (formerly Gas).
  • Danse Macabre's lasers will vertically track targets while spinning, similarly to Mirage's Prism.

The result of this is an Eidolon-Vampire tank warframe that protects allies by forcing the majority of enemies to attack himself, absorbing his opponents and their bullets to "charge" his battery, absorbing shields, health, and energy like a vampire should, and releasing it all in a glorious burst of Eidolon lasers.  Even if all enemies die very quickly to Revenant's allies, he still gains Eidolon Essence from his teammates killing thralls.  Provided DE makes the fire rate of the Pillars' homing projectiles reasonable, and the radius of Pillars is big enough, Enthrall should spread relatively fast which in turn sets up the rest of his abilities.  And remember, any numbers here can change.

This originally came from the thought that Warframe lacks any frames that cause enemies to focus their attacks on one person.  After getting Revenant and experimenting with him, I figured that his abilities would make much more sense if his Thralls ran at him rather than away from him or following behind him, but that would fundamentally change how Thralls function (although their function at the moment is limited at best).  At the end of the day I just want Revenant to be a fun, viable, and unique Warframe.  I envisioned these changes to match those goals, even if there's a 99.9% chance that none of these are going to be realized.   

If you read all of this, thanks.  If not, I still appreciate you too.

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31 minutes ago, Messaiga said:

Mesmer Skin - Become enveloped in Sentient energy, which reflects 90% of damage and stuns all those who dare attack for 2/3/4/5 (Duration) seconds.  Enthrall can be cast on a stunned enemy to Enthrall all stunned enemies at no cost.  In addition, any damage reflected by Mesmer Skin is stored as Eidolon Essence.

Change Details:

  • Mesmer Skin still operates on charges.  Mesmer Skin reflects 3/5/6/8 (Strength) incoming enemy attacks.
  • Attacks can no longer bypass Mesmer Skin if they exceed his EHP or come from a Nullifier.
  • Can still be recasted to refresh his charges.  

I prefer to have none of these changes as I like the way mesmer skin works already.  Well except for the whole nullifier ignoring it part.

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Self DMG and some forms of AOE ALSO completely ignore the stacks, and since DE implemented them so as to redirect/nullify any instance of dmg, so it shall be, INCLUDING self dmg, whether it's a hit dealing 1 dmg or a hit dealing 1 Million.

Otherwise they can just change the mechanics of that bit_ch of a mesmer skin and the way it works into something else and call it a day.

As for the rest, after 66 pages of feedback all the issues that Muppet revenant has have been highlighted so many times over and over, starting from the lack of identity of that frame and moving on to questionable and redundant mechanics or ABILITIES, after putting some formas and some extensive and intensive runs with Rev, i personally haven't touched that frame anymore, i was just fed up for several reasons, including BOREDOM and NO interesting mechanichs, real bad/clunky abilities and bugs over bugs.

One of the WORST designed frames i have seen in a long time,i can't even excuse his poor execution by him being rushed since he's been showcased and teased for more than 2 months, whoever designed and was in charge of giving life to REV dug a real deep HOLE in the WATER

Shame

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It is a long thread so this might have been mentioned already.... 

Upon using ultimate ability the PC version of the game forgets that I've toggled auto-run. I need to re-activate it after every dance. Could the ability be tweaked so that it remembers my prior settings?

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3 hours ago, Pinegulf said:

It is a long thread so this might have been mentioned already.... 

Upon using ultimate ability the PC version of the game forgets that I've toggled auto-run. I need to re-activate it after every dance. Could the ability be tweaked so that it remembers my prior settings?

Thats been happening to me on console as well.  Its kind of annoying to deal with since I have my run button for auto-run tied to the touch pad button.

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Haven't read whole thread so this could have been mentioned. Change Enthrall to a combination of Nova Antimatter drop and infested volatile runner behavior. Once enthralled, mobs run to the nearest other enemy and explode with blast or other procs, doing significant AOE damage instantly. That would make Revenant far more fun and useful.

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Have thralls teleport to Revenant's current location on making a new thrall.

Thralls soak all damage until their duration timer runsout  then take all the stored damage all at once.

Make mesmer skin recastable while in dense macabre.

Make Reave have a chance to create thralls

Give Dense Macabre a ramping cost so that it starts at what the original value was and ramps up to current value so that it has a place, and people ahve to weigh if staying in it is worth or not. The change of reave to making thralls gives you an active reason to use it. Reave through a crowd that hasn't been obliterated yet and dense through the new wave of thralls.


There are lotsof other fixes, but those would address the major problems.

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There's a lot I like about Revenant, but overall I feel he has some serious problems, which his recent changes didn't fix. While he feels a little better to play now that Mesmer Skin can be recast, his different abilities still don't feel cohesive. I'm not sure how reasonable it is to suggest this right now, but I'd advise changing certain parts of his ability set, so that we have a clear Eidolon-based frame, and perhaps port whatever's left to new or existing frames. Enthrall, for example, feels like it would be a better fit on Nyx (and even then, it still doesn't feel like a great ability on its own either), and Reave I think is so clunky and disjointed from the rest of the kit I'd personally replace it with something else entirely. Mesmer Skin itself is alright, though I feel more could be done to make it feel more Sentient, i.e. by having it provide adaptive damage resistance or the like.

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It would be nice if Mesmer Skin charges worked on self-damage too. It would instantly create a niche for Revenant play since there is a group of players who never use explosive weapons due to their self-damage.

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The changes to Enthrall feels like a nerf. Using. Danse to just blow up your sources of DPS feels like the last thing you want. The energy projectiles the pillars fire don’t seem to do enough damage to justify their existence. And 7 is still too low a number for thralls.

Danse Macabre is still too expensive an ability. 15 per second would have been enough, 20 is just overkill.

 

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