Operator Rework(?)

[iuki.]

Why can't focus be more like syndicate rep where exp is natural?

I am betting a large portion of the player base has barely even invested in their operator b/c it's such a pita to level up compared to every other grind.

Meh, I hope this changes in the future.

Edited August 29, 2018 by iuki.

[Oreades]

42 minutes ago, Bostrom_NZ said:

It's not if you actually do the activity in the game that is designed for the operators; Eidolon hunts give you plenty of focus. Once you're up to doing four tridolon captures in one night cycle, you're earning 700k focus per night. Do one night plus your daily cap in ESO and you've got ~1m focus after 1.5 hours of game play. That's more than reasonable IMO. It does take some time get to the point where you're running four tricaps but that is called progression and having done it fairly recently it really isn't that bad.

Yeah no, Eidolon hunts where yet another bandaid fix, 

And the whole casual "just quad cap the Tridolons in one night cycle, it'll fix all your problems" kinda comes off on the "let them eat cake" side. 

Which is kind of ironic because the whole reason the Focus Gains system is in it's current broken state is because DE was desperately trying to slow down the hyper grinders and didn't care about throwing the rest of the game under the bus to do it. Then they just hand the tryhard hyper grinders the Tridolons and essentially give them a blank check to print as much Focus as they want while leaving Focus Gains in the rest of the game a complete and utter mess.

While seemingly expecting the rest of the game to embrace the operators....... without actually fixing the Focus Gains problem throughout the rest of the actual game. 

 

46 minutes ago, Bostrom_NZ said:

Personally I'm enjoying operator combat more and more, being able to quickly go into operator mode, void dash across the map, pop back into the warframe and take out enemies is a lot of fun. 

And don't you think other people would also enjoy operator combat and we would have fewer "operators suck" threads if the Focus gains in the rest of the game where actually felt reasonable? Without having to live in ESO or just ...casually quad killing the Tridolons every night cycle?

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

2) Aura mods, generally speaking, don't affect pets and companions except in very specific exceptions- for example, the weapon amp mods affect their weapons (which they possess). This means that, no, there isn't a precedent for them affecting everything.

You don't use Rejuvenation, do you?

[Bostrom_NZ]

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Yeah no, Eidolon hunts where yet another bandaid fix, 

And the whole casual "just quad cap the Tridolons in one night cycle, it'll fix all your problems" kinda comes off on the "let them eat cake" side. 

Which is kind of ironic because the whole reason the Focus Gains system is in it's current broken state is because DE was desperately trying to slow down the hyper grinders and didn't care about throwing the rest of the game under the bus to do it. Then they just hand the tryhard hyper grinders the Tridolons and essentially give them a blank check to print as much Focus as they want while leaving Focus Gains in the rest of the game a complete and utter mess.

While seemingly expecting the rest of the game to embrace the operators....... without actually fixing the Focus Gains problem throughout the rest of the actual game. 

I'm curious to know why you think the eidolons are a band-aid fix? And I didn't say just casually quad cap, you work your way up to using the progression system that is in place: public bounties starting with the teralyst then move onto a tridolon. Upgrade your amp. Use the focus you earn along with focus farmed in other games modes such as SO or ESO to upgrade your operator. Move into recruit chat and go for casual tridolons or 2x3s. Experience the thrill of doing your first 3x3 and then eventually 4x3 and maybe even a 5x3.

Also, the changes made with lifting the daily cap and introducing SO and ESO have VASTLY improved the focus gain so I'm not sure how you can say it's a complete and utter mess. Calling people tryhards doesn't do your argument any good either.

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

And don't you think other people would also enjoy operator combat and we would have fewer "operators suck" threads if the Focus gains in the rest of the game where actually felt reasonable? Without having to live in ESO or just ...casually quad killing the Tridolons every night cycle?

I think people would enjoy their operators much more once they've 'leveled' them up playing the game modes where farming focus is the intention. If players don't want to do that then they don't have, they will still earn focus and over time fill out their focus trees, it will just take longer. That's their choice.

[Loza03]

10 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

You don't use Rejuvenation, do you?

One of the exceptions. Two mods (them proccing a status does trigger Growing Power does not an overall pattern make, since the damage boosting auras affect the Sentinel's weapons, not the Sentinels themselves. None of the other mods work on them. Putting on Loot Radar or Enemy Sense doesn't grant them the ability to detect enemies or loot through walls, Toxin Resistance doesn't reduce the toxin damage they take, they don't gain overshields from Brief Respite. The first one in particular - Loot Radar doesn't extend to pets, so it shouldn't extend to Operators.

[Atekron]

you can re-assign key bindings in option, I do use "R" for operator mod and "V" for void mod, instead of crouch

and operators became really useful when you invest a lot in focus, arcanes and amps

my advice would be to farm plat and buy arcane elevate set, or better two, also try to git gud in teralyst hunt, invest in some sniper rifle and some better amp

operators indeed need a rework - DE should make them client side

Edited August 29, 2018 by Atekron

[Vlada91]

We need all that and + much more. And I hope to see mature operator with some cool melee... 

[Oreades]

10 hours ago, Bostrom_NZ said:

I'm curious to know why you think the eidolons are a band-aid fix?

Its a bandaid fix because instead of fixing Focus Gains in the whole game, they instead implemented two new locations where focus wasn't horrible. 

That's two whole places in the whole game (outside of cheesing game mechanics with a Sleepqinox) where focus isn't abysmal. One of which is just another Hydron but for Focus and the other is only really effective at an unrealistic level for people in general. 

Copying the "Hydron is the place to go if you want to X" with ESO is a recipe for burnout and I'm not sure  if I've sufficiently expressed this but quad killing the Tridolons........ is not a reasonable answer.  

 

10 hours ago, Bostrom_NZ said:

Calling people tryhards doesn't do your argument any good either.

There comes a point where if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck..... it's probably a duck. I'm generally not one to sugar coat things. 

But what do you want me to call them? Min/Maxers? Edge cases? The reason we have threads constantly asking why Tridolon groups are so elitist/toxic?

 

10 hours ago, Bostrom_NZ said:

I think people would enjoy their operators much more once they've 'leveled' them up playing the game modes where farming focus is the intention. If players don't want to do that then they don't have, they will still earn focus and over time fill out their focus trees, it will just take longer. That's their choice.

Or, stay with me on this one....... DE just fixes focus throughout the rest of the game so Focus Gains actually feel decent and let people start enjoying their Operators. Instead of going the "keep on keeping on" rout where people sit there hating the operators until they either just give up on them or break down and go live in Focus Hydron or just quad clearing the Eidolons every night cause that's realistic. 

All they have to do is

• seriously boost the passive focus gains that they gutted to keep the tryhards from burning through Focus. 
• appropriately lower the multiplier on the Convergence orbs cause they seem hellbent on keeping that mechanic
• Leave ESO alone it will in all likelihood remain "the best mission for Focus" but it won't functionally be "the only mission for Focus"
• Leave the Drops from the Eidolon functionally as they are, allowing people to go past their daily cap. 

There isn't a problem with ESO or the Eidolons being an option but as Focus Gains stand, they aren't an option. As it stands you either live in ESO, casually quad kill the Tridolons every cycle or give up on ever making any reasonable headway with your Operator. 

The bottom line is if DE ever want's people to take the Operators seriously they need to make them reasonably accessible. Ya don't do that by shoveling people into a single mission or giving the very people they gutted the system to slow down, carte blanche to print their own Focus, without fixing Focus Gains for the rest of the game. 

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

The first one in particular - Loot Radar doesn't extend to pets, so it shouldn't extend to Operators.

"Being-able-to-see-things-that-only-human-players-care-about Detector doesn't apply to AI-controlled Kubrows, so it shouldn't extend to human-controlled player characters"?

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by TARINunit9

[-CdG-Zilchy]

14 hours ago, (XB1)PredakingXYT said:

Which might be fine if, like literally everything else in the game, there was no cap on Focus XP.

There isn't a cap if you get all your focus from eidolon hunts.

[Loza03]

9 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

"Being-able-to-see-things-that-only-human-players-care-about Detector doesn't apply to AI-controlled Kubrows, so it shouldn't extend to human-controlled player characters"?

 

…Yeah pretty much. After all, your point is that these Aura mods affect everything, right? Which we are in agreement that they don't. So, since you brought Aura mods affecting everything up was as a reason they should affect Operators, the fact that we agree they don't makes that point null and void.

Look, Operators should get a loot detector and an enemy radar. But I can't see any reason those should come from the Warframe.

[Floppinger]

The Operator is imo very poorly implemented.

Using the operator for anything that doesn´t specifically require you to use the operator is just very counter intuitive when the warframe is equipped to mow down enemies by the hundreds. As a result of that my Amp is lvl 11 from killing the odd Vomvalyst (or however it´s spelled) here and there.

There are no "normal" missions that require the player to use the operator either. So when you´re not eidolon hunting, you´re not encouraged to use the operator for anything other than reset sentient resistances, making kuva guards vulnerable and triggering the passive every now and then. All of which are: do a void dash and get back into the warframe asap.

In addition to that, the game encourages the player to level up new weapons and warframes all the time and chew through mastery fodder unless proper weapons are absolutely needed. I.E. run around with stuff that probably doesn´t have a focus lens installed or was recently formad so the focus lens doesn´t work.

So yeap, so far I´m one of the people who think the operator sucks. Until second dream you´re all fine and dandy, playing your warframes and then you get this apendix to drag around with ya and grind out on the side because you need for one or two activities.

Don´t get me wrong, the operator is nice for story missions, but gameplay outside of that doesn´t agree with me.

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Floppinger

[Kaotyke]

14 hours ago, Oreades said:

And don't you think other people would also enjoy operator combat and we would have fewer "operators suck" threads if the Focus gains in the rest of the game where actually felt reasonable? Without having to live in ESO or just ...casually quad killing the Tridolons every night cycle?

I believe so. But Lens are a thing and I dont believe they will be going away.

But if DE buffed the Focus gain and got rid of the Convergence Orb, that would be a step forward imo. The blinking Orb gets annoying after a while.

[Oreades]

1 hour ago, Kaotyke said:

I believe so. But Lens are a thing and I dont believe they will be going away.

But if DE buffed the Focus gain and got rid of the Convergence Orb, that would be a step forward imo. The blinking Orb gets annoying after a while.

The lenses are fundamentally fine when it comes to the idea of tiered focus gains.

The problem is most definitely the passive focus gains and the convergence system and there is a way to keep the convergence system. Definitely boost the passive gains and then lower the convergence multiplier so things don't get absolutely crazy when you pick up an Orb. That way you're still going to get OK focus for the mission but if you pick up the orb you're going to get a burst of good focus. The orb becomes a bonus instead of being an absolute necessity. 

Where as right now it's a total feast or famine and even when you're in "feast mode" it's totally RNG. Same mission you can pick up an orb and get ~20-200 Focus with 4 Eidolon Lenses or end up with 3,000-4,500+. There is just so little consistency. 

 

Now I'm not the biggest fan of not being able to change what the lenses are equipped to but mostly because that encourages build stagnation. Cause once you get that Eidolon Lens on your item, that's the Item you're going to use ad nauseam. 

Personally I feel that farming 20 Eidolon Lenses is sufficient to say "you've done the item grind" 

It's just this kinda confusing situation where you keep hearing the Devs want to see more build diversity but they keep adding/fostering systems that actively discourage players from trying other things. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Oreades

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

…Yeah pretty much. After all, your point is that these Aura mods affect everything, right? Which we are in agreement that they don't. So, since you brought Aura mods affecting everything up was as a reason they should affect Operators, the fact that we agree they don't makes that point null and void.

Look, Operators should get a loot detector and an enemy radar. But I can't see any reason those should come from the Warframe.

No, we are actually in huge disagreement. My point is that aura mods don't turn off when you go into Z-kid mode, you can still see them visibly effecting teammates and friendly NPCs. That established, my problem with that point is they arbitrarily have no effect on Z-kids, even in the few similarities Z-kids and Warframes actually share; and I have a problem with that because it is TOTAL MALARKEY in every way shape and form. I see no gameplay reason for this, nor do I see any lore reason for this that isn't some huge DE apologist working backwards to try and exchse the inexcusable

In conclusion, Rejuvenation, Energy Siphon, Sprint Boost (not to be confused with Rush), Physique, and Loot Detector should all function for Z-kids. The alternative is just arbitrary and player-hostile. Make them stack with Focus trees, make our Z-kids even more powerful, why not? 

Edited August 29, 2018 by TARINunit9

[(PSN)Warframe2052018]

Would love the operator rework and it would also be nice to have them be more animated. Outside quests. Not just beings that stare into your soul if left unchecked. 

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

No, we are actually in huge disagreement. My point is that aura mods don't turn off when you go into Z-kid mode, you can still see them visibly effecting teammates and friendly NPCs. That established, my problem with that point is they arbitrarily have no effect on Z-kids, even in the few similarities Z-kids and Warframes actually share; and I have a problem with that because it is TOTAL MALARKEY in every way shape and form. I see no gameplay reason for this, nor do I see any lore reason for this that isn't some huge DE apologist working backwards to try and exchse the inexcusable

My point with that 'Agreement' line was that your point was 'Aura's affect everything' and you had just admitted Auras shouldn't and don't, thus negating that whole line of argument, since you just admitted it was based on faulty logic.

Having said that, we've gone through reasons why they shouldn't affect Z-Kids, and here are those reasons, as I understand them.

Gameplay reason: because just as primary weapons and secondary weapons use different builds, so too does your 'Primary Avatar' (your Warframe) and 'Secondary Avatar' (Z-kids) have different builds. Literally as simple as that. Allies in invasion missions are considered spectres, which are considered gear items that aren't modded separately, so they're considered a part of your Warframe's equipment. Pets also have their own builds, which is why they are, for the most part, not affected by your Warframe's build. Your Z-kid has their own build, so they aren't affected by your Warframe's build. This also explains why their buffs often disappear when you go back to your Warframe, because the buff wasn't for your Warframe, it was for the totally-separate Operator. They even recently implemented a change to Exalted Weapons which made them their own weapons, thus no longer being affected by the builds of other weapons.

Lore reason: because Operators don't have any tech that affects their abilities aside from implants directly into their brains, which are extremely sensitive organs. Large changes, especially those made frequently, could have serious repercussions, particularly since our powers are controlled by our minds, which are connected to our brains. Remember, we 'focus' our abilities, with each school being only a part of what each Z-kid can do. Do something that affects their self-control, and you have an uncontrollable mess that's firing death beams, burning and electrocuting areas, exploding things at random and preventing people from getting close enough to stop them, regardless of whether the Z-kid in question wants to or not. Thus, the implants were not built to be modified.

Your argument is that there is no reason against your case, as opposed to there being a good reason for your case. Thus, me providing a reason for my case invalidates your case, as me having a reason disproves your point, and you have given no reasons to support your case. 

Also, I can't deny I'm an apologist in this case. An apologist is literally the only thing I can be, because an apologist is someone who gives reasons for something, which again, your case is that there is no reason, so my disagreement takes the form of giving a reason.

[Arniox]

On 2018-08-28 at 3:01 PM, John_Steak729 said:

So I finished the war within a few days back, also got the mote amp and currently trying to level it up. So first of all, we have the transferance replacing the transcendance which bugs me a lot cus i liked that ability where the operator shoots a powerful void blast from the chest and during this time u and ur warframe r invulnerable to damage. Its like a last resort all-out attack when ur in a pinch. Don't get me wrong, i do enjoy playing as the operator running around and blasting the void out of enemies but it makes me vulnerable and often get killed. My suggestion to this would be to make full use of the ability keys 1, 2, 3 & 4 when playing as the operator. Like put in transendance and void mode there(cus i like to see my operator crouching while not in void mode). I also want to run while in void mode lol like crouching would put me into stealth u know just like the warframes. Lastly just to add more diversity, it would be cool if we can shoot the void blast from the left hand by changing the camera angle if ur left handed(the 'H' key i think). What do u guys think? :)

OK, firstly the whole system was recently changed when the war within released. Originally we where stuck with the chest laser which made the whole system insanely boring and separated. 

Secondly, as for your buttons, I like the first idea. A seperrated void mode button so that you can crouch within going into void mode. 

Your second button is not meaningful and also maybe op, cause you can already void dash to move really fast, so running while in void mode would not be useful. 

And your last point: no. This has already been asked before and resulted in a massive thread with lots of arguments. The point is, in order to make left handed poasible; where you actually shoot from your left hand, DE would need to make left handed animations for EVERYTHING. Even reloads, cool downs, shooting and so on. They would have to nearly double the current amount of animations within the game to allow for left handed gameplay. 

So no. This won't be a thing. And j personally don't want it to be a thing cause it would be a massive waste of resources and time when DE could be working on much better, more important things. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Arniox

[Loza03]

Double post.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Loza03
Double post

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

My point with that 'Agreement' line was that your point was 'Aura's affect everything' and you had just admitted Auras shouldn't and don't, thus negating that whole line of argument, since you just admitted it was based on faulty logic.

Having said that, we've gone through reasons why they shouldn't affect Z-Kids, and here are those reasons, as I understand them.

Gameplay reason: because just as primary weapons and secondary weapons use different builds, so too does your 'Primary Avatar' (your Warframe) and 'Secondary Avatar' (Z-kids) have different builds. Literally as simple as that. Allies in invasion missions are considered spectres, which are considered gear items that aren't modded separately, so they're considered a part of your Warframe's equipment. Pets also have their own builds, which is why they are, for the most part, not affected by your Warframe's build. Your Z-kid has their own build, so they aren't affected by your Warframe's build. This also explains why their buffs often disappear when you go back to your Warframe, because the buff wasn't for your Warframe, it was for the totally-separate Operator. They even recently implemented a change to Exalted Weapons which made them their own weapons, thus no longer being affected by the builds of other weapons.

Lore reason: because Operators don't have any tech that affects their abilities aside from implants directly into their brains, which are extremely sensitive organs. Large changes, especially those made frequently, could have serious repercussions, particularly since our powers are controlled by our minds, which are connected to our brains. Remember, we 'focus' our abilities, with each school being only a part of what each Z-kid can do. Do something that affects their self-control, and you have an uncontrollable mess that's firing death beams, burning and electrocuting areas, exploding things at random and preventing people from getting close enough to stop them, regardless of whether the Z-kid in question wants to or not. Thus, the implants were not built to be modified.

Your argument is that there is no reason against your case, as opposed to there being a good reason for your case. Thus, me providing a reason for my case invalidates your case, as me having a reason disproves your point, and you have given no reasons to support your case. 

No, I did not agree to that. And yes, I have given reasons to support my case

I objected to your post using the jontron clip because you completely screwed up your wording. As best I can tell, you were trying to disprove my point by claiming that there is precedent that Auras do not spread to all entities indiscriminately. However, the example you gave was incredibly fallacious.  The example you gave is that Kubrows do not benefit from the player's Loot Detector, therefore no auras should ever work on Z-kids for any reason. I find this a terrible leap of logic

Kubrows may not benefit  from Loot Detector, but that is not because auras have the limits you are insinuating. It is because the very mechanic of loot radar has no effect on Kubrows. Kubrows DO benefit from Rejuvenation, because they are effected by the mechanics of health and health regeneration, this implying that the limits you are insinuating do not exist.

Likewise, Z-kids are effected by the mechanics of health and health regeneration. My argument in turn is that Rejuvenation (and Loot Detector in turn) should apply to Z-kids. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by TARINunit9

[Loza03]

19 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

No, I did not agree to that. And yes, I have given reasons to support my case

I objected to your post using the jontron clip because you completely screwed up your wording. As best I can tell, you were trying to disprove my point by claiming that there is precedent that Auras do not spread to all entities indiscriminately. However, the example you gave was incredibly fallacious.  The example you gave is that Kubrows do not benefit from the player's Loot Detector, therefore no auras should ever work on Z-kids for any reason. I find this a terrible leap of logic

Kubrows may not benefit  from Loot Detector, but that is not because auras have the limits you are insinuating. It is because the very mechanic of loot radar has no effect on Kubrows. Kubrows DO benefit from Rejuvenation, because they are effected by the mechanics of health and health regeneration, this implying that the limits you are insinuating do not exist.

Likewise, Z-kids are effected by the mechanics of health and health regeneration. My argument in turn is that Rejuvenation (and Loot Detector in turn) should apply to Z-kids. 

My statement was partially sarcastic because your quote was "can effect literally freaking ANYTHING", by pointing out that they do. This was your claim, as I understood it, not mine. Therefore, this leap in logic was, again as I understood it, made by you, and I was arguing against it. I probably shouldn't have made that joke, and I'm sorry. Even still...

Kubrows are also affected by the mechanic of health, as you say. And yet, they are not affected by physique. They are affected by the mechanic of shields and abilities, yet are not affected by brief respite. They are affected by Armour, and not affected by Stand United, and so on for the majority of mechanics they are affected by. Rejuvenation and Growing Power then, are exceptions, not the rule. Therefore, Loot Radar would not work for them even if they did care about loot, in the same way that Enemy Radar does not work for them even though they are affected by the mechanic of enemies. Following that logic, Z-kids, although also affected by similar mechanics to Warframes should not be affected by auras (with the possible exception of Rejuvenation and Growing Power), as they are considered a separate entity in the same vein as pets, and aren't even affected by the overall mechanic of modding. Thus, they shouldn't receive benefits related to modding. And pets and auras are only a part of my overall argument. Even if you indisputably proved that they worked for pets under all circumstances, the overall reason of "Warframe and Z-Kids are like Primary and Secondary weapons which don't affect each other" would still stand, as pets could well be considered the exception, as they have no counterpart in the same loadout to be distinct from in the same vein as Warframes and Z-kids.

Your reasons were, to my knowledge, 'there's no reason why not' and 'Aura's can affect anything that shares mechanics', with the latter being heavily arguable considering how few actually do despite shared mechanics, with the exceptions being seemingly arbitrary. This is particularly true for Z-kids, considering they don't share the mechanic that Aura's are even a part of, so if your argument is based on them sharing mechanics, they don't share that critical one. Please note, the second argument is a lot more robust, because lack of evidence against is not evidence for.  

 

However, I've been thinking about this topic, and have realised something. There is a reason, a very good reason in fact, that would support having auras affect Z-kids. The gameplay reason is that they are separate entities, as I've said. Well, Z-kids have passive abilities in their variant of the build system that affect Warframes, so it's reasonable to suggest that the reverse should also be true. This even has lore reasoning to back it up thanks to the Sacrifice, which shows that Transference is a two-way process, so if these passives are sent via transference, then the reverse can, and arguably should, also be true.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

space kiddos work fine, they just start out rather underpowered. nothing some invested time can't fix: grind yourself some focus and a better amp, as well as some Operator Arcanes of your choice. you'll soon see a major difference in power level.

 

[Kaotyke]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

space kiddos work fine, they just start out rather underpowered. nothing some invested time can't fix: grind yourself some focus and a better amp, as well as some Operator Arcanes of your choice. you'll soon see a major difference in power level.

 

I just wish the powers were proportional to the amount of points we need to unlock each level instead of fixed amounts.

... at least have the last level get a bonus.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

4 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

I just wish the powers were proportional to the amount of points we need to unlock each level instead of fixed amounts.

... at least have the last level get a bonus.

I agree, though with some Arcanes, and a little know how, they're worth it. personally I take R3 Virtuous Strike on Madurai for one-shotting eidolon shields and I'm woking on Magus Nourish so that I can heal any Warframe I use without avoiding combat. the Focus System isn't perfect. Synthetic Shards in particular are a joke, they should give 10-15k focus a pop, considering their rarity and all.

[xveganrox]

Unless you're a Kubrow how do any of you know that loot detector doesn't work for Kubrow? Maybe they can see the loot and they just aren't telling you.