What's the point of all this power progression?

[SinKershel]

16 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

LifeOfRio made a video pointing out how you don't need any power progression to do the hardest content in this game. Which is true, you can do anything with just a rank 30 warframe/weapon. Which posses a big red flag for Warframe, since power progression is a large reason to keep playing the game. It adds a huge amount of replay-ability. A reason to get on in-between content droughts, which was a major problem over the last year.

What's the point of all this power progression? Why do we have Catalysts/Reactors/Forma/Arcanes/PrimedMods/Rivens?

Do you think DE should make some harder content to give purpose to all this power progression? Scaling is obviously broken right now. Should they fix scaling first to make endurance viable, or should they just increase the level on missions?

 

Are you serious ? The point is to be more effective.

The point is to be more viable in a bunch of situations. I can mod for 2-3 abilities instead of 1.

The point is to have variety. 5 formas in a Ok weapon can make it viable for end game content depending on your playstyle.

Sure you can do the content and spend 30 minutes on a boss because you can only equip 4 fully ranked mods/and/or you keep dying. I'd rather do the boss in 5 minutes.

Do you need more explanation ?

Do you like doing content in 30 minutes that could've been done in 5 ?

[--END--Rikutatis]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

Funny, I come from Monster Hunter (huge player with 4 digits playing time along the serie I started playing with the first on psp.) and I totally feel like you regarding ... Monster Hunter.

Even worst, I had to do all the farm from the beginning at every new episode every time. Often the same monsters, same weapons, same system ... 

Monster Hunter and Warframe are pretty close to each other, almost like two different Cola.

I mean, I'm not saying Monster Hunter World has this super comprehensive and robust endgame content available,because it doesn't. It's not even meant to be something you play for more than a year or so, since a new one will be released soon (at least in Japan it will). And I also totally understand how someone who's been following the series for a while now would be totally burned out by it. However in terms of combat gameplay, there's no doubt at all in my mind that MHW offers a far more engaging and challenging experience than WF. Controls, combos, animation locks, MHW is a far more demanding experience in terms of mechanical skill than say, pressing 4 on Mesa, turning your mouse around a little bit and watching everything melt around you on that sortie 3. Or just facetanking everything with Nidus or another tank frame because sortie enemies DPS can't even scratch your ehp and survivability. Sure, it's like Dark Souls. Once you've played for a while and memorized all the boss moves it becomes a lot easier. But it still requires that level of engagement to pull it off that Warframe simply doesn't have when we compare our current power vs what DE considers endgame content (lvl 80-100 max). Warframe is trivial by comparison. Higher level enemies would alleviate a lot of that problem.

 

53 minutes ago, SinKershel said:

Are you serious ? The point is to be more effective.

The point is to be more viable in a bunch of situations. I can mod for 2-3 abilities instead of 1.

The point is to have variety. 5 formas in a Ok weapon can make it viable for end game content depending on your playstyle.

Sure you can do the content and spend 30 minutes on a boss because you can only equip 4 fully ranked mods/and/or you keep dying. I'd rather do the boss in 5 minutes.

Do you need more explanation ?

Do you like doing content in 30 minutes that could've been done in 5 ?

Hmm, you clearly don't get it then, if you think it'd take anyone who knows what they are doing 30 minutes to kill a boss, or that they'd die to it just because they didn't forma their gear. Because you don't. Once you get into one-two shot territory, or ehp that can't even be scratched, anything above that is just overkill. 

[SinKershel]

24 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Hmm, you clearly don't get it then, if you think it'd take anyone who knows what they are doing 30 minutes to kill a boss, or that they'd die to it just because they didn't forma their gear. Because you don't. Once you get into one-two shot territory, or ehp that can't even be scratched, anything above that is just overkill. 

First, some sortie bosses can take a long time depending on conditions.

second, we ain't only talking about Forma here. OP said Reactors too. That means only 30 points to invest in your frame. that's 3-4 fully ranked mods.

third, the video is just LifeofRio wanting more end game content and trying to argument without showing examples of how a low MR player with a rank 30 frame without potatoes, forma, etc, would perform in high lvl content.

We know it's doable, with certain frames, and the perfect setup of mods, but it's far from being the best experience and it limits you to only a couple of frames and weapons.

the lack of well balanced end game content is the problem, not forma and potatoes.

[Kimimoto]

2 hours ago, SinKershel said:

Do you need more explanation ?

Yes, because everything you said is completely wrong. You don't need forma/reactor to make a build that's just as effective as one with forma/reactor. No content in the game needs such minmaxing.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

The powerful weapons they keep making is to satiate the community and give us something to grind up and feel good. that's the best reason I can think on anyway.

[SinKershel]

2 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Yes, because everything you said is completely wrong. You don't need forma/reactor to make a build that's just as effective as one with forma/reactor. No content in the game needs such minmaxing.

Show me a build then. Show me how effective you can be with only 30 points.

Prove me wrong.

[Kimimoto]

2 minutes ago, SinKershel said:

Show me a build then. Show me how effective you can be with only 30 points.

Prove me wrong.

What would you like me to do it on?

What would you like me to do?

Edited August 29, 2018 by Kimimoto

[SinKershel]

Just now, Kimimoto said:

What would you like me to do it on?

What would you like me to do?

Select whatever frame you want. Tell me which mods/rank you use without forma/potatoes.

I know some frames are easier to mod but, I'm giving it to you. Still, Select whatever frame you want. Mod it to 30 points.

99.9 % sure I can be more effective with 60 points after.

[Kimimoto]

1 minute ago, SinKershel said:

Select whatever frame you want. Tell me which mods/rank you use without forma/potatoes.

I know some frames are easier to mod but, I'm giving it to you. Still, Select whatever frame you want. Mod it to 30 points.

99.9 % sure I can be more effective with 60 points after.

Well, no S#&$, the point is there's nothing in the game that you need to be that effective for. I'm saying give me a mission/goal to complete with the base 30 frame, and I'll provide proof.

[SinKershel]

12 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

Well, no S#&$, the point is there's nothing in the game that you need to be that effective for. I'm saying give me a mission/goal to complete with the base 30 frame, and I'll provide proof.

Nothing in the game you need to be effective for ? Elite Onslaught is all about effectiveness.

The game is all about farming, and you're telling me there's no reason to do it faster/more effectively ?

If you only have 30 points, youll throw Flow 9, Vitality 10, Intensify 11,  that's pretty much it ? No efficiency, no range, no armor, no duration, no syndicate ability mods etc.

that's a sad build. Who wants that ? Who's ok with just that ?

Edited August 29, 2018 by SinKershel
missing words

[Kimimoto]

14 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

give me a mission/goal

 

3 minutes ago, SinKershel said:

ok

Nut up or shut up

[SinKershel]

14 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

 

Nut up or shut up

You really want a mission ? Pick whatever frame you want, Bring a non-formaed/potatoed weapon. 30 points max. Go Solo Elite Onslaught (at least 8 waves)

Then come back here and tell me it wouldn't have been easier with 60 points.

Tell me "I like how my range was so small and I had to run 3 times more than usual". Tell me "it was amazing that everytime i was casting an ability it cost me 50 energy".

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by SinKershel
more words

[Kimimoto]

1 minute ago, SinKershel said:

Then come back here and tell me it wouldn't have been easier with 60 points.

It would be easier, nobody is saying it isn't. 

That's not the point though, it's still very much possible without 60. With ZERO upgrades. When we have soo many ways to upgrade, none of it is REQUIRED.

Time to do Onslaught.

[Kimimoto]

1 hour ago, SinKershel said:

come back here

Here are the results. Doing it solo I was only able to make it to Round 4, so I grabbed one person from recruiting chat. We just almost made it to round 9, I believe we were 10-15 seconds off.

Playing in a full group like you normally would, getting the C reward would be ezpz with no upgrades.

https://imgur.com/a/kcqvcMn

[SinKershel]

37 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

Here are the results. Doing it solo I was only able to make it to Round 4, so I grabbed one person from recruiting chat. We just almost made it to round 9, I believe we were 10-15 seconds off.

Playing in a full group like you normally would, getting the C reward would be ezpz with no upgrades.

https://imgur.com/a/kcqvcMn

The whole point was doing it solo, but you proved me right. Doing it in group is super easy, because you're actually getting carried by people who invested in formas and potatoes. I know, everytime I do it with Saryn, people in my group barely do 10 % dmg each.

I can get in there Solo with my fully modded/potatoed Saryn Prime, my fully modded/potatoed Amprex or Ignis Wraith and stay in there for at least 8 waves. (never stayed longer solo since there's no point).

So yeah, there you have it. You can't get to C rotation alone with stock frames/weapons.

and a LOT of people play Warframe solo (that's why there's so many frames that work better solo). So formas and potatoes are useful.

have a good one Tenno.

[Kimimoto]

1 hour ago, SinKershel said:

have a good one Tenno.

Good to know you were here to win an argument and not actually have a discussion. 

Playing in a group is the standard. Not to mention with just a catalyst 8 rounds would be entirely possible. Good thing there's no progression past catalysts. 😃

Edited August 29, 2018 by Kimimoto

[Toran]

Am ‎28‎.‎08‎.‎2018 um 08:43 schrieb Kimimoto:

LifeOfRio made a video pointing out how you don't need any power progression to do the hardest content in this game. Which is true, you can do anything with just a rank 30 warframe/weapon. Which posses a big red flag for Warframe, since power progression is a large reason to keep playing the game. It adds a huge amount of replay-ability. A reason to get on in-between content droughts, which was a major problem over the last year.

What's the point of all this power progression? Why do we have Catalysts/Reactors/Forma/Arcanes/PrimedMods/Rivens?

Do you think DE should make some harder content to give purpose to all this power progression? Scaling is obviously broken right now. Should they fix scaling first to make endurance viable, or should they just increase the level on missions?

 

The Overpower in Warframe is part of its appeal to many players. If you go all the way, you can become a demi-god space-ninja. Do you need it to beat the game's hardest content? Mostly not, but some will do.

Not everybody is a hardcore-gamer. I know a few guys who lack the dexterity or spatial awareness to beat said stuff without the power progression in question. They might be happy the game offers enough ways to compensate.

If you're looking for content that actually pushes your little demi-god to the limit, there's little Warframe has to offer:

• very long duration runs (ESO, Defense, Survival)
• The Index (best suited, doesn't take too many rounds to become very challenging for the average player)

And still you can cheese it, some in group, some solo (Survival with Ivara, your RL body is your limit...).

You ask for the point behind all this power, there are a few:

• continous feeling of progression: it takes quite a while till you hit the end of what's possible (Forma, Focus, Arcanes, Riven)
• competition of the power creeps: same appeal as tuning for car enthusiasts (there's no need for that either)
  - who deals the most damage?
  - who kills the most?
  - who's the fastest?
  - who still works perfectly under high energy restriction?
• the possible overpower allows for fun-builds too that otherwise wouldn't work (I got a really hard-to-kill max-range portal Nova for Plains-Bounties)
• the possible overpower enables handicapped or less dexterious players to enjoy the majority if not all the game contents

Don't get me wrong, I see your point. Sure, DE could bring up content that's far harder than the current one but players always find a way to cheese it out. I'm no big fan of scaling either (as in Destiny 2): it takes away the whole point of progression if everything feels the same, no matter how far you progress.

With little effort DE could bring up extreme Survival and Defense missions starting at level 200+ (or more), restriction should be complete loadout at 30.

I'd prefer weekly challenge missions with either a predetermined loadout (same chances for all, MR wouldn't matter) or a restricted equipment level (as in the old conclave rating).

[(PSN)NachoZissou]

58 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

Good to know you were here to win an argument and not actually have a discussion. 

Playing in a group is the standard. Not to mention with just a catalyst 8 rounds would be entirely possible. Good thing there's no progression past catalysts. 😃

"LifeOfRio made a video pointing out how you don't need any power progression to do the hardest content in this game. Which is true, you can do anything with just a rank 30 warframe/weapon"

Not quite then hey. Apart from the fact that power progression is simply what keeps people playing, there is content in the game that you need to be modded for more than your basic 30 capacity allows, as proved above. 

[--END--Rikutatis]

5 hours ago, SinKershel said:

I can get in there Solo with my fully modded/potatoed Saryn Prime, my fully modded/potatoed Amprex or Ignis Wraith and stay in there for at least 8 waves. (never stayed longer solo since there's no point).

So yeah, there you have it. You can't get to C rotation alone with stock frames/weapons.

3 hours ago, (PS4)NachoZissou said:

Not quite then hey. Apart from the fact that power progression is simply what keeps people playing, there is content in the game that you need to be modded for more than your basic 30 capacity allows, as proved above. 

Not quite, you guys are wrong, I just did it solo with Saryn. I think Kimimoto just used the wrong frame, equinox is not the best to solo it. Here's my loadout, I only used the polarities on Saryn that already come with the base frame (you can check the wiki), no reactor and no formas. Same for the weapons, no catalyst or forma on those. As you can see in the screenshots, easy 9 waves. My efficiency was still at 95% by the end of it and I had only died once and that was because of a silly mistake:

https://imgur.com/a/uo1YJcM

 

[(PSN)NachoZissou]

22 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Not quite, you guys are wrong, I just did it solo with Saryn. I think Kimimoto just used the wrong frame, equinox is not the best to solo it. Here's my loadout, I only used the polarities on Saryn that already come with the base frame (you can check the wiki), no reactor and no formas. Same for the weapons, no catalyst or forma on those. As you can see in the screenshots, easy 9 waves. My efficiency was still at 95% by the end of it and I had only died once and that was because of a silly mistake:

https://imgur.com/a/uo1YJcM

 

The point isn't really whether it's technically possible, more that there is a point to upgrading things beyond the basic 30 ranks. 

Not everyone will have the optimal frame modded in the optimal way and the ability to use it. Even less likely that it would be someone who didn't know how to use catalysts and formas in the first place.

[--END--Rikutatis]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)NachoZissou said:

The point isn't really whether it's technically possible, more that there is a point to upgrading things beyond the basic 30 ranks. 

Not everyone will have the optimal frame modded in the optimal way and the ability to use it. Even less likely that it would be someone who didn't know how to use catalysts and formas in the first place.

I mean, sure, there is a point to using catalysts and formas, it's progression. However the whole point of Rio's video and this thread is that power creep has gone way too far for far too long while enemy levels have stayed the same all this time. To the point right now we don't even need catalysts and formas to do the game's hardest content. It's all overkill and it makes the game trivial. The situation becomes even worse when DE forces veterans with maxed builds to farm in low level missions for resources, relics, primes, etc. That's just a slap in the face. I don't want formas to be removed from the game, I just want higher level content available to me so I can put my min-maxed builds to good use (without having to spend 2-4 hours in an endless mission to reach those levels, cause that's torture). 

[(PSN)NachoZissou]

2 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I mean, sure, there is a point to using catalysts and formas, it's progression. However the whole point of Rio's video and this thread is that power creep has gone way too far for far too long while enemy levels have stayed the same all this time. To the point right now we don't even need catalysts and formas to do the game's hardest content. It's all overkill and it makes the game trivial. The situation becomes even worse when DE forces veterans with maxed builds to farm in low level missions for resources, relics, primes, etc. That's just a slap in the face. I don't want formas to be removed from the game, I just want higher level content available to me so I can put my min-maxed builds to good use (without having to spend 2-4 hours in an endless mission to reach those levels, cause that's torture). 

I agree with you there, I'd also like more readily available high level content, but having seen so many players of different MR and ability level struggle through sorties and other more difficult missions I can't get behind the idea that we don't need to upgrade our stuff. 

One person might be able to solo ESO using basic gear but the next ten people couldn't solo it even with their best gear complete with formas and potatoes. 

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Eh ever since DE announced Login 2.5 he's been salty, spreading hate and throwing a major tantrum that spreads to pretty much every part and mechanic of the game. Don't listen to that child of a youtuber, he's heavily biased right now.

[Noibat]

I've  been playing casually for 4 years now,  and honestly it's  just... FUN.  the loot collection is cool and all,  but honestly just being able to jump into a map,  obliterate enemies while dashing around like a mad space ninja,  is just glorious fun. It doesn't  get old.  I spend a ton of time just fighting the same first few bosses over and over, to help newbies farm frames,  and I love that too.  If you're not into the game,  go somewhere else.  It's  not broken,  it's more than fair,  for a FTP,  and it's  lore and gameplay both have steadily improved over the last few years.  And it's  going to continue to do so. 

 

 

My ONLY gripe is fissures.  I miss the days of farming void for prime goodies. 

[Vox_Preliator]

Er, Fun?

My primitive lizard brain produces the feel-good chemical when I see big numbers.

I do want to say the solution is absolutely not "Higher level content."