What's the point of all this power progression?

[Noibat]

4 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Er, Fun?

My primitive lizard brain produces the feel-good chemical when I see big numbers.

I do want to say the solution is absolutely not "Higher level content."

Reptilian brains lack an amygdala,  and as such don't  actually feel emotions such as love, or fun. Js

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

8 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

My primitive lizard brain produces the feel-good chemical when I see big numbers.

Indeed. Like how far you wanna take this "what's the point?".

Cos it probably comes down to endorphins released in our brains to get us hooked on the game in order to try and make some money out of us.

But do we really wanna think about that?

Ultimately, it's a video game. There isn't a point. It's a hobby. Have fun. If you ain't having fun then do something else.

Edited August 29, 2018 by (PS4)drpunk-yo

[Noibat]

Just now, (PS4)drpunk-yo said:

Indeed. Like how far you wanna take this "what's the point?".

Cos it probably comes down to endorphins released in our brains to get us hooked on the game in order to try and make some money out of us.

But do we really wanna think about that?

Ultimately, it's a video game. There isn't a point. It's a hobby.

The entire point of games is fun. Stimulation and entertainment. Literally,  it's  as simple as that.  How someone thinks they can turn the entire point of ALL entertainment industries,  not just video games,  into an insult [and an inaccurate one at that] is beyond me. 

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

1 minute ago, Noibat said:

The entire point of games is fun. Stimulation and entertainment. Literally,  it's  as simple as that.  How someone thinks they can turn the entire point of ALL entertainment industries,  not just video games,  into an insult [and an inaccurate one at that] is beyond me. 

Yeah, you quoted me before I edited fun into my post.

Edited August 29, 2018 by (PS4)drpunk-yo

[Erytroxylin]

Because it's fun to see how much of a god you can be. Afterall, the Tenno were feared in the Old War.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

In my honest opinion it all boild down to this: "Don't like it, leave". Very simple.

Let's be clear here, I'm not out of the reach of my own words, I love Warframe as it is (maybe some mechanics I dislike, but I get around), but if someday I face too big of a change for me to adapt I'll probably give up for a good while, like I've done before. No hard feelings, it'd have just stopped being the game I loved. Maybe in a year or 2 I'll come back and find a very good game again. 

On other point, the only way you leaving Warframe would promote a change would be if a lot more people left with you, something that tends to not happen, so why get salty because others enjoy stuff you don't? It's just life.

Yet another argument is that Warframe is a looong term kind of a game. There are people who play hard or casually, have been here for weeks or years, but rarely someone gets everything in the game, Conclave and all, and they're still here trying to get whatever's missing. I'm finishing my slow PoE grind for all decorations and Arcanes yet I'm about to get swarmed by Fortuna.

So, in short: You aren't having fun? Good for you, leave permanently or take a break. But just because you, or any salty youtuber, doesn't get what he/she wants it's no reason to start dissing the game left and right. Warframe is now very well known and a symbol for the industry for a reason. That reason is: "DE must be doing something right".

Just a warning: This text is aimed at no one in particular, just a thought for the community as a whole, players, DE and content creators.

[--END--Rikutatis]

29 minutes ago, Noibat said:

If you're not into the game,  go somewhere else.

I'm glad that you have enough fun with WF watching the lights and clicking your mouse a few times to feel super powerful. Good for you. This may come as a surprise for you, but there's actually different styles of players in the community. And different reasons why people play videogames. Some people enjoy pvp and conclave, there were those who enjoyed the coop and puzzle aspect of trials (rip), others enjoy more of an intense combat challenge (endurance runs), there's fashion frame and lego building in the dojos, etc. Instead of going somewhere else (although I actually have for the most part, currently playing MHW as I already said before), we choose to discuss and propose ways for WF to offer more challenge for those of us who want that. Youtubers and forum posters both. It's the game we love after all, we also spent thousands of hours and a lot of money on it, and would love if DE would provide some of that challenge in niche game modes (we don't want the whole game transformed). After all DE is known to listen to the community and be pretty open to communicate. The problem is that a good portion of the community have this selfish mentality that if WF is already providing what they want, they just shut everyone down in these forums asking for a bit more challenge. 

Power fantasy is a core component of WF sure, but what we are asking for (a little more engagement and challenge with the gameplay) is not so out there, given DE has been doing just that with their recent nerfs and reworks of certain frames and weapons. I simply don't understand why you guys are so adamant against anyone asking for more challenge in these forums, if it's something that won't affect your own play style or what you do in the game. We are not asking for rewards to be gated behind harder content, just for the option to be there so that this subset of the community can stay within the game. But people prefer to cheer when trials get axed from the game, and keep asking for pvp to be completely removed from the game. 

 

[ShogunGunshow]

Bigger numbers makes my dingdong harder.

[Noibat]

10 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I'm glad that you have enough fun with WF watching the lights and clicking your mouse a few times to feel super powerful. Good for you.

Uh,  buddy,  I got news for you...  That's  what every component of the game that you mentioned boils down to.  Not sure why you guys insist on silly little backhanded comments like this, when we're  talking about something purely meant to do exactly that. 

 

Also,  the point of the original post was to basically crap on a component of the game that others actually do enjoy,  that is a core part of the game [as you mentioned] and questioned why it was there at all.  Insinuating that it either needs to be changed or removed.  So it would affect my experience.  As such,  I can absolutely disagree with it.  Add more content,  sure.  Add flexibility and different game modes and harder endgame,  I'm  all for that.  But don't  go removing components because you disagree with it.  

 

What I don't  understand, is where you thought I disagreed with any of that,  and why you guys think petty insults will get you anywhere at all in a civil discussion.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Noibat

[rune_me]

32 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I'm glad that you have enough fun with WF watching the lights and clicking your mouse a few times to feel super powerful. Good for you. This may come as a surprise for you, but there's actually different styles of players in the community. And different reasons why people play videogames. Some people enjoy pvp and conclave, there were those who enjoyed the coop and puzzle aspect of trials (rip), others enjoy more of an intense combat challenge (endurance runs), there's fashion frame and lego building in the dojos, etc. Instead of going somewhere else (although I actually have for the most part, currently playing MHW as I already said before), we choose to discuss and propose ways for WF to offer more challenge for those of us who want that.

But to be fair, there are so many games on the market, that it shouldn't be hard to find one that carters to whatever turns you on. So "play another game instead" is actually sound advice.

Sure there's conclave in Warframe, but if PvP is the reason you are playing games, I think we can all agree that there are games out there that offers a far better PvP experience than Conclave. Nobody's going to pick up Warframe because they love fighting games and saw Frame Fighter. They'd just play Mortal Kombat or Tekken instead. It's the same reason you are playing MHW now: because it does the challanging fights against a single, tough opponent much, much better than Warframe does. So if that is what you want, then MHW is your game.

There's nothing Warframe can add to Conclave that will ever make it as good as the great PvP games out there. There's nothing you can add to Frame Figther that will ever make it compete with Injustice 2 or Tekken. This whole idea that the game should carter to everyone's wishes because different people enjoy different playstyles, is exactly why we have all these half-baked, boring game modes in the game.

[hooperinius]

1 hour ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Er, Fun?

My primitive lizard brain produces the feel-good chemical when I see big numbers.

I do want to say the solution is absolutely not "Higher level content."

I would like more "high level" content, the operator-specific stuff they throw at us (Eidolons etc) don't appeal to me.

[--END--Rikutatis]

37 minutes ago, Noibat said:

Also,  the point of the original post was to basically crap on a component of the game that others actually do enjoy,  that is a core part of the game [as you mentioned] and questioned why it was there at all.  Insinuating that it either needs to be changed or removed.  So it would affect my experience.  As such,  I can absolutely disagree with it.  Add more content,  sure.  Add flexibility and different game modes and harder endgame,  I'm  all for that.  But don't  go removing components because you disagree with it.  

 

What I don't  understand, is where you thought I disagreed with any of that,  and why you guys think petty insults will get you anywhere at all in a civil discussion.

 

Except no one said remove components of the game, the video just used formas as an example, that if the game doesn't have any content that requires all the progression that exists, then why have the progression at all? It obviously wasn't a serious suggestion to remove formas from the game. 

Also your discussion honestly stopped being civil or at the very least it stopped being productive when you and someone else resorted to the argument "if you don't like it, leave it". That's obviously a non-argument. If we didn't like the game, we wouldn't be here. We just want to discuss and propose things to DE, which is known to listen to player feedback. 

[Noibat]

5 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

 

Except no one said remove components of the game, the video just used formas as an example, that if the game doesn't have any content that requires all the progression that exists, then why have the progression at all? It obviously wasn't a serious suggestion to remove formas from the game. 

Also your discussion honestly stopped being civil or at the very least it stopped being productive when you and someone else resorted to the argument "if you don't like it, leave it". That's obviously a non-argument. If we didn't like the game, we wouldn't be here. We just want to discuss and propose things to DE, which is known to listen to player feedback. 

I've  been here 4 years,  I'm well aware of DE's propensity for catering to their playerbase.  Which is exactly why I'm  taking part in this discussion.  😉

[dEjAvU5566]

I play warframe just for seeing gigantic number popped out from lv10 lancer.

More power progression meaning larger number, so yeah, it has a point.

 

[(PSN)Samnizal_Plays]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

Eh ever since DE announced Login 2.5 he's been salty, spreading hate and throwing a major tantrum that spreads to pretty much every part and mechanic of the game. Don't listen to that child of a youtuber, he's heavily biased right now.

Apparently you haven't seen his video about the login rewards. He LIKES the new login rewards because it doesn't effect him

[--END--Rikutatis]

14 minutes ago, rune_me said:

But to be fair, there are so many games on the market, that it shouldn't be hard to find one that carters to whatever turns you on. So "play another game instead" is actually sound advice.

Sure there's conclave in Warframe, but if PvP is the reason you are playing games, I think we can all agree that there are games out there that offers a far better PvP experience than Conclave. Nobody's going to pick up Warframe because they love fighting games and saw Frame Fighter. They'd just play Mortal Kombat or Tekken instead. It's the same reason you are playing MHW now: because it does the challanging fights against a single, tough opponent much, much better than Warframe does. So if that is what you want, then MHW is your game.

There's nothing Warframe can add to Conclave that will ever make it as good as the great PvP games out there. There's nothing you can add to Frame Figther that will ever make it compete with Injustice 2 or Tekken. This whole idea that the game should carter to everyone's wishes because different people enjoy different playstyles, is exactly why we have all these half-baked, boring game modes in the game.

That's a fair point, and I agree with you for the most part, however there's just one major flaw in WF's design at the moment: literally the entire game revolves around grinding for progression and power, but there is no content available in the game that requires that progression or power. Nearly every progression-grind based game out there attempts to provide that challenge in the form of endgame modes and by updating enemy levels and difficulty as progression continues (Borderlands, WoW, Diablo 3, Division, heck even the original Destiny). PVP could be this endgame, higher level content could be this endgame, and hard boss battles could be this endgame (to be fair I think eidolons was the best step DE took towards endgame challenge). 

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

I don't believe u can do a lot of the content without the fixings on your weapons or frame. Due to bullet sponge one hit kills u won't get far...all bragging rights be damned. "The get gud crowd begs to differ always"

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Samnizal_Plays said:

Apparently you haven't seen his video about the login rewards. He LIKES the new login rewards because it doesn't effect him

Do you mean this one? Yeah, the first one on it. Seems legit. But...

 

Have you seen this one?

Or this one?...

 

Ok, so we have 2 paths over here to choose from, my fellow Tenno. Either we go with:

1. He's trying to appear neutral on this (specially on the 1st video due to lack of reaction from the community) while dissing Login 2.5 more and more with the loudness of the people agreeing with his PoV, all while being passive agressive, which is idiotic.

Or...

2. He's preying on this community part's rage to get some more views and likes by further stirring the worm can, which besides being idiotic is very immature of him as one of the content creators of Warframe, that are supposed to remain neutral and guide their viewers, not push them into a specific path because of the content creator's personal tastes.

[rune_me]

51 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

That's a fair point, and I agree with you for the most part, however there's just one major flaw in WF's design at the moment: literally the entire game revolves around grinding for progression and power, but there is no content available in the game that requires that progression or power. Nearly every progression-grind based game out there attempts to provide that challenge in the form of endgame modes and by updating enemy levels and difficulty as progression continues (Borderlands, WoW, Diablo 3, Division, heck even the original Destiny). PVP could be this endgame, higher level content could be this endgame, and hard boss battles could be this endgame (to be fair I think eidolons was the best step DE took towards endgame challenge). 

I don't really disagree with you on that. I would love to have more challenging content in Warframe, but I have sort of started to just accept that it won't happen. ESO is the closest to it, and even that had to make the challenge cheap by introducing efficiency (because what causes you to fail in ESO is the efficiency drop, not the tough enemies). And yeah, eidolons, especially in public games, can still be a challenge (though it's kind of still difficult to fail, unless you run out of time).

I'm in your boat at the moment and have to admit, that since I purchased MHW I haven't even played Warframe, not even logged in for the daily rewards or to farm Revenant. I'll be back when Fortuna releases, but for now I'm on a break.

Edited August 29, 2018 by rune_me

[SinKershel]

4 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Not quite, you guys are wrong, I just did it solo with Saryn. I think Kimimoto just used the wrong frame, equinox is not the best to solo it. Here's my loadout, I only used the polarities on Saryn that already come with the base frame (you can check the wiki), no reactor and no formas. Same for the weapons, no catalyst or forma on those. As you can see in the screenshots, easy 9 waves. My efficiency was still at 95% by the end of it and I had only died once and that was because of a silly mistake:

https://imgur.com/a/uo1YJcM

 

We all know Saryn can cheese Elite Onslaught. One Saryn can do the job while the whole group is sitting. So yeah, solo should be even easier.

So one frame on what ? 35 ?

Not a heavy argument.

 

[Noibat]

1 hour ago, SinKershel said:

We all know Saryn can cheese Elite Onslaught. One Saryn can do the job while the whole group is sitting. So yeah, solo should be even easier.

So one frame on what ? 35 ?

Not a heavy argument.

 

Not to mention the fact that it only took him ONE "silly mistake" to end up dead.  

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

The point of power progression is to give all the nerf criers something to snivel about 

[Hyohakusha]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

2. He's preying on this community part's rage to get some more views and likes by further stirring the worm can, which besides being idiotic is very immature of him as one of the content creators of Warframe, that are supposed to remain neutral and guide their viewers, not push them into a specific path because of the content creator's personal tastes.

This. Rio is a terrible example to use. There always seems to be a Trinity and Nova with him that don't get mentioned for some reason (gee I wonder why).

Without power to grind for, the grind has no purpose. This is why I can't help but  when someone in an unpotato'ed zero-forma rank 20 Excal with 50 hours of gameplay complains about the mission end screen numbers (which count for nothing). With 2 reactors, 4 catalysts, 800 ranks, and 15-20 forma average on any of my loadouts, with 2.5k hours in game, there is no way you will be able to keep up. But you can absolutely get there, just like I and thousands of other people did. You can absolutely ask me what that build is and how it works, and I and a hundred other people will be all too happy to share-brag with you. You're literally asking for your potential and goals to be limited or outright removed because you're lazy. 

Unlike the current trend in videogames where enemies always scale with you so you never actually get stronger, or any ability or special action you have gets an annoying cooldown that feels awful, or your entire ability to progress is locked behind loot boxes, Warframe follows the old, good model of design. The emphasis on "realism" and "realistic feeling" in games nowadays is asinine.

The entire point of a videogame is to do things you wouldn't be able to irl. Warframe is the last place that should have something like scope sway (which was removed) considering we can jump 50ft in the air from a standing crouch and swing massive weapons through intricate movements like they're made out of dry bamboo. That's the whole reason this game is popular; because you can raise your hand and freeze an entire room, or mow down a horde of enemies in a hail of gunfire like a Grammaton Cleric from Equilibrium. Removing that feeling of being a void demon is the worst possible mistake DE could make as it would remove the entire purpose of the game: having fun.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Hyohakusha

[xveganrox]

On 2018-08-28 at 2:43 AM, Kimimoto said:

What's the point of all this power progression? Why do we have Catalysts/Reactors/Forma/Arcanes/PrimedMods/Rivens?

Do you think DE should make some harder content to give purpose to all this power progression? Scaling is obviously broken right now. Should they fix scaling first to make endurance viable, or should they just increase the level on missions?

The point is to get more powerful, get more cool toys, build cool new combinations, etc. Warframe was never designed to be nail-biting, thousands of hours of practice required, hardcore difficult. It's fun and accessible, and the changes they've made reflect that as a design goal. The previous end-game, for example, trials, were removed because they weren't as accessible and required communication between players. 

Is scaling really broken? It seems like scaling from `1-100 is generally functional, and all the content is built around 1-60 other than sorties and a few rare exceptions. Sorties cap at 100, bounties cap at 60, Eidolon Hunt isn't scaled. "Endurance" IMO was always pretty terrible, since it really was just a test of how much repetition you could endure before going to the bathroom or answering the phone or something, but eSO is uncapped endurance that goes up quickly if you really want it. At the end of the day though Warframe has always been about discovering new overpowered abilities or weapons and blowing away (or CCing, or sneaking past, etc.) hordes of mooks. I doubt there's anything in the pipeline that will change that, and I'm not sure I'd really want it to anyway. At the moment, there are already a (very) few things that you need to commit 20 minutes straight to farming. Only a tiny, tiny percent of people would even consider locking themselves into playing a game for an hour+ straight "endurance," and those people can already do it if they want to.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

Do you mean this one? Yeah, the first one on it. Seems legit. But...

Ewww. No idea who that person is, but those videos look about as toxic and click-bait-y as it gets.

7 hours ago, hooperinius said:

I would like more "high level" content, the operator-specific stuff they throw at us (Eidolons etc) don't appeal to me.

So would I, but locking it behind very long endless missions was never a good way to do it. For all their flaws, I really liked the idea of trials. Just inflating HP/armor/damage doesn't make content more challenging, but adding mechanics, especially ones that require coordination between players, does.

Edited August 29, 2018 by xveganrox

[Zimzala]

What's the point?

Power Fantasy.

Not Simulation, not Survival, not Realism - Science Fiction Power Fantasy.

If you want a real grind with an endless level cap and unlimited rewards, play the stock market.

WF is for a fun power fantasy, the point of the progression is bigger numbers to get bigger numbers...

Games do not have to have a point other than ephemeral entertainment.