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[DE]Drew

Mask of the Revenant: Update 23.6.0

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Overshields aren't useful on Revenant. In high level content he just dies the moment his 2 runs out. He's a lot like Rhino in that his 2 is his hp. He needs tools to keep it from running out, not heal him when it's down. He can't afford to ever have it down once you get to sortie level. Make mesmer skin grant brief immunity for each chrage, let reave refill mesmer skin charges and reduce reave's energy cost. Then he will have survivability on par with Mesa and Rhino.

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il y a 54 minutes, Kotsender_Quasimir a dit :

Sorry, but this leads me to a general concern:

Revenant hasn't even been out for a week. Considering you have to farm him first, build the pieces then the frame itself i think it's a bit much to expect the majority of players has already built him by now. I know i don't, still cookin. This suggests people who bought him from the market get an advantage in giving feedback and actually getting heard.

No, i don't wanna put the representativeness of said feedback into question, especially if it's so overwhelmingly in unison apparently.

Still i think it'd be more fair in principle to let at least a little more time pass so people farming frames (it's not like i couldn't afford him but i simply enjoy doing so, as it gives me something to do) have a realistic chance to have a say, too. (As long as something isn't obviosuly completely broken of course).

Thanks for you consideration.

That being said: From what i've gathered without having played him i can only guess these changes are a good thing. I wondered by you'd design a frame that way after reworking Banshee and Ember accordingly in the first place. A more favorable solution would be not to design skills as cast-and-forget (interrupting interactivity) altogether, though.

The main problem of the frame is simple, rev is about making thralls, and use them.
You can't use them, and that's the problem, they die too quickly, and if they want to keep it that way, it need a larger increase of the cap and a rework of the two, make it enthrall the ennemies that touch you instead of doing it yourself.
 

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Alright, increasing the Thrall cap was a good start. However...

 

 

Enthrall needs to be castable even when you're at that cap - releasing the oldest Thrall when you do so. I still feel like power strength should play some role in this ability, like grant a damage multiplier to Thralls or something. Wouldn't make that much difference at the end of the day, but hey. Overshields from Thrall deaths are kind of pointless though: the only time shields remotely matter is if there's a percentage-based damage reduction active, like Gara's Splinter Storm or Mesa's Shatter Shield, or Nekros' Shield Of The Dead. There's an augment idea, at the very least: if Thralls took some of the damage directed at you - such as 7%, affected by power strength. 

 

Mesmer Skin still needs to auto-Enthrall. Same point as I've been harping on - momentarily 'stunning' one dude at a time out of the horde is worthless when, A: there's no visual indication and B: we can't refresh the ability, rendering it worthless whenever enemies start hitting even mildly hard and it's already down to like 1 charge because a Grineer unit fired a couple of bullets into you. If for some ungodly reason you refuse to make it auto-Enthrall, like you advertised it would prior to release, make the stun an aoe with visual indication at least so we can actually tell what's been momentarily neutralized. 

Reave still needs to be affected by more mods. Range and strength, to be precise. And it needs casting invulnerability. And how about some utility? How about a chance to 'harvest' extra loot off of struck enemies? There's another augment idea. 

 


Danse Macabre needs to have its damage be able to ramp up now more than ever. Make the beams do their current damage + a compounding 2-3% of enemies' max hp per hit (percentage affected by power strength). 

 

Right now it's like a glorified World On Fire without the CC (that's really bad, in case that wasn't clear). Remember back when teasing Revenant, you attempted to liken this 4 to Mesa? Well it's absolutely not a 'high damage' ultimate. The only way in which it's comparable to Mesa's Peacemaker is the obnoxious sprint toggle-off it forces.

 

You increased its energy cost before making it even worth using in the first place. Give him some actual oomph, before treating him like a problem child like Ember. And there's no excuse this time like "oh we just let it go for so long that we became afraid that if we changed it, people would get mad," you guys designed this ability very recently, how could you possibly not have foreseen the exact application that you're now trying to shut down with this energy drain move? The problem here is that this drain and treatment is acting like you guys think this ability is strong, when it's weak. Very weak. It's just a problem to lowbie star chart exterminates, not to any content that remotely matters. If you're gonna make it too costly to see the light of day in casual application, make it worth using on higher-level enemies. Because as it stands at this moment, this ability has no home anywhere.

 

Is it 'high damage' enough to be worth using on even Sortie level enemies? Hell naw, it's about as effective as an off-brand dollar store squirt gun. But can it be used on lower level content where that kind of weaksauce damage can get results? The answer's still no, because it doesn't shoot water: at 20e/s it's demanding to be fed a strict flow of liquid gold and caviar. This is the highest rate of drain I've ever seen on any ability, and it may honestly be one of the objectively weakest 4's in the game right now. Extremely high cost, 0 utility, and the pure damage itself is weak

 

Ironic that his name is Revenant - someone returned from the grave - when he was dead on arrival and ya'll just piledrived him right back into the ground immediately. We already get enough of the zombie-slaughter fantasy with the Infested faction daily, this guy didn't need that kind of treatment.

 

For the record I adore his visual design and the concept of a Sentient-themed frame, that's why I looked forward to Revenant as much as I did and why his current state saddens me as it does. If my little rant above sounded negative, please prove that negativity wrong with further action. 

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I was doing the quest in cetus for revenant Blueprint but i did not know what to do i went there and search for the eidolon after that i came back to cetus but i did not got the blueprint then i saw a video on youtube i have to defeat revenant first in PoE but now if i got there i cant see the quest area 

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when will you fix exiting poe while doing the revenant quest makes you unable to finish it (or start it again)

 

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DE you really missed the mark on the Revenant changes.

You didnt want his #4 to be a fire and forget and you wanted to see Enthrall used more, or thats what it seems like from the changes and the reasoning. Well increasing the cost on Dance wont see more use of thralls since the synergy they provide is garbage compared to the cost and time it takes to pop them out. Also the increase in Dance cost means more itemization needed for us to use it like pre-patch, even for us that didnt use it as a fire and forget. That results in gimping our range, meaning Enthrall will have a range of 10m. No one will utilize them more now than before.

A few simple solutions instead of increased Dance cost would be.

1. Force Revenant to move during Dance. Resutling in placing him on an object wont work. If someone wants to play lazy they'll only get 50% of the coverage (do to the wal he'll run into to stay in place).

2. Better sync between enthrall and his other skills. Make Enthrall work like spores, let Reave spread enthrall to unaffected target (if the cap isnt reached), let Dance spread enthrall to new targets when it kills a thrall. You could even let friendly kills spread enthrall. It works well for Saryn and her spores. This would see more use in enthrall since you'd recast it from time to time.

3. Energy Orbs would be a better synergy for thralls killed by Dance instead of overshields.

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not to be a debbie downer, but Revenant's shield gain mechanic is worthless becasue shields are so incredibly worthless.....................any changes to it are worthless until you change the shield mechanic itself

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The only reason Rev’s ult was used as much as it was, was because the rest of his kit wasn’t really worth using aside from keeping his Mesmer skin up... which has yet to receive any touch ups. Only players with arcane energize, primed flow, and full efficiency builds could sustain Danse Macabre in a “set and forget” fashion. Don’t punish players that lack primed flow or energize. If anything it should have been worked around like Mesa’s ult, requiring more input or effort, not an energy consumption increase. And Reave still costs as much as it does to cast? I’m really disappointed in Rev. This is supposed to be our Eidolon themed warframe? He has so much potential, but feels like he’s being restricted. What’s so wrong with creating the next Nidus or Inaros? Please don’t move on just yet, I don’t want Revenant to be abandoned like Khora.

Edited by Shadedraxe

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2 hours ago, devildevil21 said:

 

Edit (2): Seriously, that enthrall buff sucks. The reason why we can't compare revenant's 1st and nekros 4th is because revenant's minions CAN be killed by allies. If anything, keep the cap at 7 but allow it to be scaled through power strength. Right now enthrall is still too underpowered for us to bother using it. And that nerf to his 4th... really? Revenant isn't in the best spot and you go and nerf him?...  

Yeah... as an Ember main I just like to laugh when people post this. Ember was a weak frame got nerfed anyway and everyone cheered. This is pretty consistent of DE so you can't really fault them for that (set it and forget it abilities).

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1 hour ago, elitharcos said:

you must be joking... his 4th ability is useless in important/good missions.

I've done sortie level missions with him and wipe the floor. I see no issue with his damage. Anything higher than that needs player skill not damage to achieve anything.

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11 minutes ago, Bl00dRedRage said:

Please fix shadows of the dead pointlessly draining Oberon's energy while renewal is active. 

Would you believe that they did remove the drain for a time, making shadows uneffected by Oberon’s renewal, but then they brought it back at 1/3rd the drain cost for shadows as opposed to other allies... which is still a lot of energy drained as opposed to Nekros just recasting his ult.

Edited by Shadedraxe

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2 hours ago, [DE]Drew said:

In keeping with changes we've made to Warframes in the past to deter from the "set it and forget" approach,

So why did you even make the ability in the first place? It's completely obvious what was going to happen with it. Now the change doesn't make a lot of sense, even with the old energy drain it was super expensive. Even using a max efficiency build didn't give a long cast time, he could've used a base energy buff if anything. Now I'd outright have to forma for primed flow and honestly, with his kit and that energy drain he isn't even worth formaing for. I hate to say it but full kit rework maybe?

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Cmon, why, why did you have to nerf the only useful ability on Revenant? Really, you think that having 3 more thralls sometimes, ONLY IF YOUR TEAMMATES DON'T KILL THEM, account for a 20% increase in energy drain for its 4? Please, really, tone down the nerf. You released a meh frame with only one fun and efficient ability, don't make the frame useless so soon.

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42 minutes ago, Perekta said:

Overshields aren't useful on Revenant. In high level content he just dies the moment his 2 runs out. He's a lot like Rhino in that his 2 is his hp. He needs tools to keep it from running out, not heal him when it's down. He can't afford to ever have it down once you get to sortie level. Make mesmer skin grant brief immunity for each chrage, let reave refill mesmer skin charges and reduce reave's energy cost. Then he will have survivability on par with Mesa and Rhino.

Overshields in general are pretty pointless. 

 

The amount of nonsense you have to do to generate overshields with Revenant when compared to other frames that give overshields is laughable.

 

You have to enthrall a target then switch to your insanely energy hungry ultimate in order to pop them into an overshield bonus. All the while you are vulnerable to enemy attacks and if your thrall dies to teammates then the overshield thing doesn't work.

I'm not sure what DE is thinking with this frame. The tiny boost to thrall usefulness does no way remotely close to justify the huge energy cost increase of his ult.

 

Hopefully we'll see this fixed instead of 'fixed' in the future.

Edited by Leqesai

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Increase thralls damage for fun's sake! It's laughable to watch normal and thralled enemies cheap each-other health-bar for two minutes.

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hace 2 minutos, Firetrucksrule dijo:

Now I'd outright have to forma for primed flow and honestly, with his kit and that energy drain he isn't even worth formaing for. I hate to say it but full kit rework maybe?

Absolutely. Its kit is so useless in the heat of battle, and so convoluted to use, that instead of investing in the frame it's outright better to shelf it. And I really regret that cause yesterday I put a golden potato on it. F*ck my luck.

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hace 12 minutos, Shockwave- dijo:

Yeah... as an Ember main I just like to laugh when people post this. Ember was a weak frame got nerfed anyway and everyone cheered. This is pretty consistent of DE so you can't really fault them for that (set it and forget it abilities).

I really have to laugh at someone saying he's a "main whatever" first of all, and second, have to laugh at you comparing Ember's world on fire to Revenant's 4. It takes considerable more micromanaging that just pressing 4 and bullet jumping like we used to do with Ember. Don't get me wrong, I hated the Ember nerf, I don't even use her anymore but c'mon, your fanboi salt alone does not make for a good argument.

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Shame for Revenant, i buyed full pack 1st day, and now thinking why... If he is so sentient expired, why dont give him their skills? passive look like stump, but it range is 2-3m which is useless like nova's passive. I vould better see on his 1st ability sumonning a vombalysts, 2nd is ok but loooong cast and so few charges wighout full str build, 3rd let it be, and ult is still good, only that ballet animation is funny, it was cooler with inaros on preview. That it. thx

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I know it's been shouted endlessly, but I'll repeat with reasons given at least.

Enthrall: You can cap this thing at 100 for all I care, the Thralls don't do anything useful, other than lay down that beam of light when you kill them. Most enemies have guns, so they don't need to walk into the beams, so you need to micromanage your Thralls to a chokepoint, then kill them, which is easier said than done. They can also be damaged by teammates, so if you're team doesn't know how Revenant works, they'll kill your Thralls before they can do anything,

Mesmer Skin: It's a great skill, while it's active. At base, you only get 6 charges, which isn't enough when you're in a group of enemies, and the fact you can't recast it means if you're in a wave based mission (Defense/Interception), if you end the round with 1 charge left, you'll have to get hit, then recast it and hope you don't die. Even if you aren't in a wave based mission, 6 charges is just so bad. Why should I use Revenant, when I could just as easily use Gara, Mesa, or any of the other Warframes with a damage reduction ability? I can build them to reduce damage far easier than I could Mesmer Skin, and they last longer with less modding.

Reave: This thing costs too much and takes too long to be useful. The only time I've ever used this thing was a way to spam energy so I can pick up energy orbs during the affinity challenge. The fact you need to use this on Thralls to make it really useful is also garbage, because like I said prior, your team can kill them before you can Reave them.

Danse Macabre: Completely useless now. The only reason it was so useful before was because almost every other ability he has was (And still is) useless. The "Overshield" orbs the Thralls drop are utterly useless, not only because shields in general are useless (Until we get Shield Gating), but because the amount they restore is so little. The fact Revenant himself has almost no energy is a problem as well, We're talking 50 energy for a Mesmer Skin, 7 free casts of Enthrall, 25 for the initial cast of Danse Macabre, then 40 MORE energy for a single boosted second. That's 115 energy out of 188 total. You would still need to recast your Mesmer Skin as well, so really you're using up 165 energy when you're in the heat of it.

Passive: A knockdown on shield depletion? I mean, that's kind of cool, if stuff is nearby you to be knocked down. But most enemies have guns and don't need to be near you to shoot you. It also knocks down your Thralls, which is another reason Thralls are so useless. You have to leave your Thralls so the knockdown doesn't affect them, but you need to be nearby them to use Reave and Danse Macabre on them. His passive is so worthless if you're using Thralls.

 

DE, I know you don't like "Press 4 2 win" strategies, I really do. But if you're releasing a Warframe that only HAS a "Press 4 2 win" strategy because the rest of the kit is garbage, then that speaks volumes of the failure of the Warframe you released. If you don't want players only using one or two abilities, give the Warframe some actual good abilities.

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