SneakyErvin Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 18 minutes ago, Noibat said: Enthrall becomes much more useful in later levels. At lvl 50 and below, everything dies too fast to even make his 4th skill necessary, let alone his thralls. Kind of a moot argument, tbh. To top that off, enthrall and ballerina don't really synergize anyhow. If you want to kill everything, press 4. If you want to heal, tank or draw aggro, press 1-2-3. His skills scale relatively well right now. Problem is that his 4 is just powerful enough to make the rest of his kit irrelevant for the easy content. I've done up to sortie 3 and Kuva Floods with Rev and I've never seen a point in the thralls. The only slight use I've had is when I need to rezz others, enthrall a close by mob and he'll enthrall a few others (if the team doesnt wipe him in one hit). Most it is just easier and quicker to twirl in there and kill everything. Even when testing Rev vs groups of lvl125 corrupted HGs or bombards poping a thrall is useless. Mesmer lasts long enough to wipe out a group. So before I can see a real use for them I need to hit way higher content, which I see little reason in. The whole point of the thralls is that they should synergize with his kit, but they arent. None of the synergies are useful. 15 minutes ago, Dougram said: I do not agree with this. I have been using his 1,2,4 powers quite often. Thralls die and produce a high damage dot/aoe on the spot which sticks around for a while. You can pretty much cover the battlefield with them while you shoot. Plus the thralls are only dead in seconds if players are killing them. Otherwise they last a long time and take incoming damage away from the team. I've been playing him pretty heavily since he came out and have him fully forma'ed. So far I do not have any major complaints with him for any of the content I or my team regularly do. He does need a few teaks to polish him up but nothing groundbreaking. As far as his number 4 power getting the power cost increase. I havn't tested it yet but he did need some sort of increase. I could pretty much stay in that mode for the whole mission leaving nothing for the rest of the team to do. Yeah but what use is there with the AoE dot. Nothing lives long enough anywhere in order to make those parts of his kit useful, unless you run pointlessly high endless missions. Not only that but the area they cover is minimal and you dont want extra range on him. I mean you need to be counter productive to play with his thralls. You need to enthrall targets in an area and let them spread (or keep recasting enthrall) instead of killing them. Usually that area is way of from the actual action, otherwise the thralls will be DoA. Stopping in order to enthrall something in the middle of the action is a waste since they'll die the second your enthrall lands. I also dont see why he needed a cost increase. He isnt the only frame with massive AoE that leaves nothing for the rest of the team to do. He already needs LoS, which certain other frames dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noibat Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said: I've done up to sortie 3 and Kuva Floods with Rev and I've never seen a point in the thralls. The only slight use I've had is when I need to rezz others, enthrall a close by mob and he'll enthrall a few others (if the team doesnt wipe him in one hit). Most it is just easier and quicker to twirl in there and kill everything. Even when testing Rev vs groups of lvl125 corrupted HGs or bombards poping a thrall is useless. Mesmer lasts long enough to wipe out a group. So before I can see a real use for them I need to hit way higher content, which I see little reason in. The whole point of the thralls is that they should synergize with his kit, but they arent. None of the synergies are useful. Yeah but what use is there with the AoE dot. Nothing lives long enough anywhere in order to make those parts of his kit useful, unless you run pointlessly high endless missions. Not only that but the area they cover is minimal and you dont want extra range on him. I mean you need to be counter productive to play with his thralls. You need to enthrall targets in an area and let them spread (or keep recasting enthrall) instead of killing them. Usually that area is way of from the actual action, otherwise the thralls will be DoA. Stopping in order to enthrall something in the middle of the action is a waste since they'll die the second your enthrall lands. I also dont see why he needed a cost increase. He isnt the only frame with massive AoE that leaves nothing for the rest of the team to do. He already needs LoS, which certain other frames dont. Sounds like your playstyle just doesn't incorporate the skill then. Or perhaps his other skills are just overpowered to the point that they should be nerfed to make his 1st skill more useful? Ok that last bit was sarcasm, DE. Seriously don't do that, he's good now lol. As far as thralls, they absolutely do synergize well. Killing them drops DoT hazards, you gain bonus health and shields when using Reave on them, and they also have the added benefit of not only spreading the thrall, but mitigating aggro as well. It's a damn good support skill, on paper and in practice. Especially for solo play. Edited August 30, 2018 by Noibat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oonue Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Noibat said: Sounds like your playstyle just doesn't incorporate the skill then. Or perhaps his other skills are just overpowered to the point that they should be nerfed to make his 1st skill more useful? Ok that last bit was sarcasm, DE. Seriously don't do that, he's good now lol. As far as thralls, they absolutely do synergize well. Killing them drops DoT hazards, you gain bonus health and shields when using Reave on them, and they also have the added benefit of not only spreading the thrall, but mitigating aggro as well. It's a damn good support skill, on paper and in practice. Especially for solo play. Problem is in groups allies tend to kill them within a few seconds leaving you with an out of place low damage dot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naelobo Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Thralls serve almost no purpose in the current meta. If maybe, on the super small chance, content becomes really challenging, they might have a purpose. If that happens though, Revenant will still be kinda useless because not only is nerfing energy cost on 4 a terrible idea, having the thralls used as overshield buffs is a worse idea, and Revenant has very little in the way of survivability. This entire concept was pretty terrible and really needs to go back to the drawing board. BUT, then again, we still have a Saryn/Mesa meta that dominates Warframe with just a core group of useful weapons that dominate the meta, it's been like this for a while, I dont expect any changes. This annoys me enough to post on the forums, which I never do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BartMag Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Noibat said: Sounds like your playstyle just doesn't incorporate the skill then. Or perhaps his other skills are just overpowered to the point that they should be nerfed to make his 1st skill more useful? Ok that last bit was sarcasm, DE. Seriously don't do that, he's good now lol. As far as thralls, they absolutely do synergize well. Killing them drops DoT hazards, you gain bonus health and shields when using Reave on them, and they also have the added benefit of not only spreading the thrall, but mitigating aggro as well. It's a damn good support skill, on paper and in practice. Especially for solo play. I imagine you fumbling with a handfull of mobs changing them to thralls only to get them killed by a single bullet, wasting energy and worst of all, a lot of time and effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-Shadowblade Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Just now, Oonue said: Problem is in groups allies tend to kill them within a few seconds leaving you with an out of place low damage dot. Almost like nidus. I'll admit, the revanant also plays much better in solo just like nidus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noibat Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Oonue said: Problem is in groups allies tend to kill them within a few seconds leaving you with an out of place low damage dot. That's just the way it goes sometimes. Not all frames can be 100% centered around teamplay. If you notice, not one single skill in his kit supports his team. He only supports the team by way of killing, and occasional aggro draw. He's almost purpose built for solo play. Self healing, invulnerability, scaling damage, all of it is selfish and glorious. In team play you don't really need the thralls anyhow. I personally like that he isn't the same cookie cutter DPS type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Noibat said: Sounds like your playstyle just doesn't incorporate the skill then. Or perhaps his other skills are just overpowered to the point that they should be nerfed to make his 1st skill more useful? Ok that last bit was sarcasm, DE. Seriously don't do that, he's good now lol. As far as thralls, they absolutely do synergize well. Killing them drops DoT hazards, you gain bonus health and shields when using Reave on them, and they also have the added benefit of not only spreading the thrall, but mitigating aggro as well. It's a damn good support skill, on paper and in practice. Especially for solo play. But you actually dont need anything of what the thralls bring, that is the whole issue. He was supposed to be designed around his thralls, but right now they are of no use anywhere. If played right you will never have a need for neither hotspot, reave bonus hp/shield or the overshields from dance kills. Mesmer Skin brings you the survival you need. The moment you start running sortie or flood survival (heck even Mot) and end the missions with 0% damage taken you start to realize just how useless it is to ever use enthrall. I planned on utilizing thralls for overshield early on, but after using mesmer skin in higher content I simply gave up on that idea since it isnt needed or useful. The only thing I can see enthrall useful for would be to CC tougher single mobs higher up, like perhaps a Bursa or Nox. What I want is for them to actually give the frame useful synergies with his thralls that actually benefit him. Right now it feels like a remnant of an old idea, before there was a thought of adding Mesmer Skin or a high damaging ult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iuki. Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) What a disappointing nerf. Edited August 30, 2018 by iuki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-Shadowblade Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said: The only thing I can see enthrall useful for would be to CC tougher single mobs higher up, like perhaps a Bursa or Nox. Now you are starting to understand. Damage and healing isn't the actual focus of thralls. Its Threat removal. Its a twofold usage. You remove high level dangers to you by controlling them, and you remove danger to yourself by redirecting attention to thralls. Used well you significantly save energy on stuff like mesmer skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noibat Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said: But you actually dont need anything of what the thralls bring, that is the whole issue. He was supposed to be designed around his thralls, but right now they are of no use anywhere. If played right you will never have a need for neither hotspot, reave bonus hp/shield or the overshields from dance kills. Mesmer Skin brings you the survival you need. The moment you start running sortie or flood survival (heck even Mot) and end the missions with 0% damage taken you start to realize just how useless it is to ever use enthrall. I planned on utilizing thralls for overshield early on, but after using mesmer skin in higher content I simply gave up on that idea since it isnt needed or useful. The only thing I can see enthrall useful for would be to CC tougher single mobs higher up, like perhaps a Bursa or Nox. What I want is for them to actually give the frame useful synergies with his thralls that actually benefit him. Right now it feels like a remnant of an old idea, before there was a thought of adding Mesmer Skin or a high damaging ult. So, again, you seem to be suggesting that the rest of his kit is just overpowered. I really wouldn't consider spamming 4 'the right way' to use him either. I generally find use with all of his skills, and they all synergize well for me. The fact that they don't do so for you just suggests you lean on other skills more. Use his Mesmer less and his enthrall/reave more. Suddenly they're useful. And vice versa. I really can't see a way to increase their use without nerfing other skills to compensate. The fact alone that you don't even need them to play endgame content shows how powerful the frame is as a whole. Why buff it more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naelobo Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Play Revenant in ESO with other more established frames like Volt, Excal, Rhino, and see how ineffective thralls are and how useless 4 becomes when there are far more efficient kits that have better synergy. It's not how powerful Revenant is or isn't, it's how terrible the function synergy is between 1,2,3, and 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 3 hours ago, D20 said: Just build a bit more for efficiency and duration. Why should you have to do that now, though? Why is this nerf necessary? I've seen revenant called literally everything BUT overpowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze4lex Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 41 minutes ago, Noibat said: Sounds like your playstyle just doesn't incorporate the skill then. Or perhaps his other skills are just overpowered to the point that they should be nerfed to make his 1st skill more useful? Ok that last bit was sarcasm, DE. Seriously don't do that, he's good now lol. As far as thralls, they absolutely do synergize well. Killing them drops DoT hazards, you gain bonus health and shields when using Reave on them, and they also have the added benefit of not only spreading the thrall, but mitigating aggro as well. It's a damn good support skill, on paper and in practice. Especially for solo play. By that logic nerfing excal's 4 because his 3 is bad and his 1 situational would be the way to go... Pls no, if an ability is bad then buff that ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noibat Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Ze4lex said: By that logic nerfing excal's 4 because his 3 is bad and his 1 situational would be the way to go... Pls no, if an ability is bad then buff that ability. My point is that no ability is BAD. his 4 is honestly all you need to use until lvl 80 or so. It's completely ridiculous. After that, or in solo, his other skills shine. But really, everyone here seems to be saying the same thing - "press 3 and 4 to win". Which says a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Case1 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Oh great time to throw rev in the garbage if all they are going to do is worsen his only good ability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze4lex Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Noibat said: My point is that no ability is BAD. his 4 is honestly all you need to use until lvl 80 or so. It's completely ridiculous. After that, or in solo, his other skills shine. But really, everyone here seems to be saying the same thing - "press 3 and 4 to win". Which says a lot. And hows that different for frames like mesa equinox or excal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noibat Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Just now, Ze4lex said: And hows that different for frames like mesa equinox or excal? Don't forget Titania! That's ALL she has going for her. The difference is that Rev's skills all synergize well, provide a real purpose, and can be used at all stages of play. The fact that people CHOOSE to just Mesmer Dance is because those skills are ridiculously powerful, not because the others are useless. You can utilize all of his skills and see results, or you can just press 4 and dance baby, dance. Most people that started using him chose the latter. So much so, that DE had to nerf it. While also buffing his first skill to a point that actually makes it really good for it's purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-Shadowblade Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ze4lex said: And hows that different for frames like mesa equinox or excal? They have to move, aim, play, and endure in order to actually use those abilities. People were abusing the way the range works on the 4. Honestly instead of energy drain increase, I'd lock the range but give some DR so you actually have to dive into the fray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripletriple Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 DE you are going to run people out of this game. No one asked for this!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AandOE Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Before the change, my #4 cost only 3.14 energy/sec.... Instead holding it on for several defense rounds, I'll only be able to do maaaaybe 1 round? XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPrime96 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 14 minutes ago, Noibat said: The difference is that Rev's skills all synergize well, provide a real purpose, and can be used at all stages of play. You haven't played Nidus haven't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noibat Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, VPrime96 said: You haven't played Nidus haven't you? Nidus is my survival main. If you'll notice, however, Nidus was NOT one of the frames he mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripletriple Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 4 hours ago, D20 said: Just build a bit more for efficiency and duration. What? That does nothing. 5/s +20e is maxed efficiently. Which is outrageous. If you are forced to build a certain way the frame is flawed. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze4lex Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 28 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said: They have to move, aim, play, and endure in order to actually use those abilities. People were abusing the way the range works on the 4. Honestly instead of energy drain increase, I'd lock the range but give some DR so you actually have to dive into the fray. It was los limited and worked as a cone aoe so being still wasnt good unless all the enemies were ifront of you you need to keep moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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