Forma's 24h makes an annoying time creep :(

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

If not losing a second to build a forma is so important to you, use the app.

[SnakeGoddess]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

If not losing a second to build a forma is so important to you, use the app.

?Still losing seconds, though? Sure, it mitigates the problem, but doesn't eliminate it. Also, it I remember correctly, you can't be logged into the app while ingame (unless they changed it), so if you happen to be in a mission, the creep still occurs...

[Twilight-Knight]

another great idea about something else, Sortie everyday with hardcore mission and ONLY 1 FORMA FOR YOU, or just 6k Kuva, 1 Exilus yeahhhhh.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

2 hours ago, Snakeattack54 said:

?Still losing seconds, though? Sure, it mitigates the problem, but doesn't eliminate it. Also, it I remember correctly, you can't be logged into the app while ingame (unless they changed it), so if you happen to be in a mission, the creep still occurs...

Yeah, but why do you actually care? Is it just the principle? That's exactly what it sounds like. Not an actual problem, but you just don't like it for some reason?

I understand some people just want a perfect Forma crafting factory, but why? One day I hope someone will explain this to me. I've seen a few of these topics before and I can never get a clear answer as to why 20h or even 23h🤣 is better than 24h. Tbh, this is the most sensible thread about it I've seen. 20h seems like a more reasonable time. I still don't understand why you guys don't just go all the way and ask for 1h or 5 min or something. 

[Zi-Sui]

I doubt DE changes this because they make money off forma bundles, people buying forma with platinum. It's an effective way to get platinum out of circulation. The more they'd change the forma times to benefit players, the more they'd lose money. The more you benefit, the less they benefit. It's funny how topics with begging DE to give free platinum are condemned by everyone but this gets a lot of support even though they are basically the same, just on different levels.

I'm a new player but don't mind the wait, it's not as bad as waiting for the 900 day login reward on any standards.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

7 hours ago, Snakeattack54 said:

Irrelevant to the problem at hand, condescendingly repeating yourself doesn't help. I have over a dozen forma built and still don't like the daily time creep. 

Highly relevant, because it seems that a lot of people don't actually understand how they can get the forma in less than 24 hours using the current system. 

No matter what the deadline is, there will be 'time creep'. That's because, life gets in the way. The same way you miss the 24 hr mark by minutes to hours, you can miss the 23 hr mark. The fastest way to 'walk it back' is to use plat to rush your build to a time convenient to you. 

 

All of the complaints (multiple threads, starting new threads on the exact same issue) involve people who want something for nothing. The current system allows them to do exactly what they're asking for every single time, if they are willing to pay for it. 

Where's the problem, because I'm not seeing one in how the game handles this issue? Maybe it's the players? 

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

Il y a 6 heures, Snakeattack54 a dit :

?Still losing seconds, though? Sure, it mitigates the problem, but doesn't eliminate it. Also, it I remember correctly, you can't be logged into the app while ingame (unless they changed it), so if you happen to be in a mission, the creep still occurs...

Man, if even finish a mission is to much wasted time to your forma building then the problem is not on 24 or 20 hours but on an addiction problem and weird obsession toward the game.

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

On 2018-08-31 at 9:42 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

1) Do missions, get relics. 

2) Do fissures, open said relics, get prime parts. 

3) Sell prime parts for plat (reasonable prices), on trade chat. 

4) Use plat to rush forma, or buy forma bundles from the market. 

5) Wonder why people complain about the build time for forma. 

 

Optional 

6) Use syndicate standing from all the missions to buy syndicate mods and weapons to sell for even more plat. 

🙂

becaouse player would like some skins etc, so buy and sell have other uses I guess. I got around 30forma but problem is that I cant make multiple items. for instance cant make 50x10large enegy pads, instead of 1x10 so u have to stay in and click every few sec. why not build multiple items at once? why not build 100pads at once or 5 forma at once, catalyst, reactor or so... for instance you may want to build 5 forma for 72h, instead of 5x24h. at this point if you need to put 6 forma in weapon you would need 6 days, and save some plat for other things. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by -HoB-AngelofRevenge

[SnakeGoddess]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Highly relevant, because it seems that a lot of people don't actually understand how they can get the forma in less than 24 hours using the current system. 

No matter what the deadline is, there will be 'time creep'. That's because, life gets in the way. The same way you miss the 24 hr mark by minutes to hours, you can miss the 23 hr mark. The fastest way to 'walk it back' is to use plat to rush your build to a time convenient to you. 

 

All of the complaints (multiple threads, starting new threads on the exact same issue) involve people who want something for nothing. The current system allows them to do exactly what they're asking for every single time, if they are willing to pay for it. 

Where's the problem, because I'm not seeing one in how the game handles this issue? Maybe it's the players? 

Lol, if you read any posts other than the first one, you'd understand that it's NOT wanting something for nothing. Not even close. If the build time was 23h, there would be NO time creep for those who pay enough attention. If time creep is such a non-issue, why do SO MANY games use a 22 or 23 hour timer for things they only want the player to do once a day? It's actually pretty common. These players aren't asking for something for nothing, they're asking for Warframe to get with the times. The game does a pretty good job of keeping pace with the rest of the gaming world in a lot of aspects, but some archaic features still lag behind.

 

5 hours ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Yeah, but why do you actually care? Is it just the principle? That's exactly what it sounds like. Not an actual problem, but you just don't like it for some reason?

I understand some people just want a perfect Forma crafting factory, but why? One day I hope someone will explain this to me. I've seen a few of these topics before and I can never get a clear answer as to why 20h or even 23h🤣 is better than 24h. Tbh, this is the most sensible thread about it I've seen. 20h seems like a more reasonable time. I still don't understand why you guys don't just go all the way and ask for 1h or 5 min or something. 

It's not just "The Principle", it's actually an issue when, for example, you have a job or a school schedule to wake up early for and your forma reset time keeps creeping later and later to the point where you need to skip a day. This whole "slippery slope" argument is completely ridiculous. Nobody is asking for a 1h or 5m timer. It's been pretty clearly stated that we UNDERSTAND forma should be a time gate, and taking a measly hour off it's build time keeps it that way. Lowering it to 5m does not. Not a difficult concept, really.

[SnakeGoddess]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

Man, if even finish a mission is to much wasted time to your forma building then the problem is not on 24 or 20 hours but on an addiction problem and weird obsession toward the game.

Time adds up, yo. Seconds become minutes, minutes become hours, and before you know it, your forma reset time is 2am when it used to be 8pm. Still dont see the issue?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, Snakeattack54 said:

If the build time was 23h, there would be NO time creep for those who pay enough attention.

False. Or at least no more true than saying that if you were a little more responsible with your time you'd be able to avoid time creep with the 24 hour timer. Sadly humans aren't very good at managing their time. 

Now there is a way to adjust and eliminate time creep, it's called 'platinum'. That's the solution to your problem. You can read my first response to this thread for detailed instructions. 

 

2 hours ago, Snakeattack54 said:

If time creep is such a non-issue, why do SO MANY games use a 22 or 23 hour timer for things they only want the player to do once a day? 

Is one of them called "Warframe"? If not, then they're not really relevant are they? 

 

2 hours ago, Snakeattack54 said:

It's not just "The Principle", it's actually an issue when, for example, you have a job or a school schedule to wake up early for and your forma reset time keeps creeping later and later to the point where you need to skip a day. 

Doesn't matter. You can complete the forma whenever you want to. That's what the platinum allows you to do. 

 

2 hours ago, Snakeattack54 said:

Time adds up, yo. Seconds become minutes, minutes become hours, and before you know it, your forma reset time is 2am when it used to be 8pm. Still dont see the issue?

No, honestly I don't, because I can easily reset it to 8 pm, or 7pm, or 7am, any time I want without losing any sleep over it. Is that something that you are unable to do on PC? 

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

6 hours ago, Snakeattack54 said:

Time adds up, yo. Seconds become minutes, minutes become hours, and before you know it, your forma reset time is 2am when it used to be 8pm. Still dont see the issue?

Still don't see the issue. What is the problem with restarting your forma build at 7~8 o'clock when you need it ? Even if you lose 1h everyday you will still be able to buil 24 format in 25 days. 240 in 250 days. Near 335 in 1 year. And you still see the 24h build time as a problem ? 

[Teridax68]

I agree with this suggestion. A 20h or 22 hour timer will still push players to check in daily, and I think acting like this would somehow break the system not only improperly evaluates the timing involved (even if players check in every 20 hours in continuous sequence, rather than every 24, they would still be checking every day), but also misses the point: the reason why games have daily timers that stop just a few hours shy of 24 is so that there's a proper window where players can join in at approximately the same time every day, give or take a few hours depending on schedule, and not be impeded. Exact 24 timers means that, at best, a player can only check back in at the literal exact same time of the day as the previous (and this is assuming a level of precision in the microseconds, which isn't quite realistic), and in all other cases means said player will inetivably push themselves further and further back, until they eventually reach a point where they simply cannot check back in at the exact same time, and have to skip part of a cycle.

Just to make the last part clear, the current 24 hour timers makes players less likely to check back in regularly, because those timers inevitably push players to a point where they have to wait for a while before restarting, disrupting their schedule and making them less active overall. This is also why other games have timers under the 24 hour mark, not simply because it's more convenient to players, but also because it's just better for business.

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

il y a 24 minutes, Teridax68 a dit :

 

You have the companion app that allow you to start and claim forge items, it even send you an alert when you can claim your stuff.

No need to log in game to do it and to use your extractors. 24h wait is not more a problem than 23 or 20.

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

You have the companion app that allow you to start and claim forge items, it even send you an alert when you can claim your stuff.

No need to log in game to do it and to use your extractors. 24h wait is not more a problem than 23 or 20.

Literally nothing that you have said addresses my point. I am not saying it is difficult or inconvenient to access the foundry, precisely because there's an app for it, my point is that it is literally impossible to queue in the next Forma any time but later than the last in the day, which ultimately ends up pushing the player further and further back until they have to give the queueing a break. Even something as small as a 23h timer would solve this, because the player could arrive 5 minutes or half an hour later one day, or the same amount of time earlier in another, and still keep to the same general schedule. Even with metronomic precision, players will not be able to keep to the exact same schedule with a 24h timer.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Literally nothing that you have said addresses my point. I am not saying it is difficult or inconvenient to access the foundry, precisely because there's an app for it, my point is that it is literally impossible to queue in the next Forma any time but later than the last in the day, which ultimately ends up pushing the player further and further back until they have to give the queueing a break. 

Platinum. If your forma is due at 8 pm, and you are only going to be on until 7pm, platinum let's you finish and start a new one before 8pm. So it's not actually as impossible as you seem to think. It also allows you to maintain the build completion time within a window that's comfortable for you. 

7 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Even something as small as a 23h timer would solve this, because the player could arrive 5 minutes or half an hour later one day, or the same amount of time earlier in another, and still keep to the same general schedule.

Selling a single part/set, or a syndicate mod/weapon, could easily do the same. We're talking minutes worth of effort in some cases. To save you, hours. Seems like a decent trade to me. 

[Jobistober]

As with everything else in the game, if time is an inconvenience for you, rush your builds or buy forma bundles from the market with plat.

[Teridax68]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Platinum. If your forma is due at 8 pm, and you are only going to be on until 7pm, platinum let's you finish and start a new one before 8pm. So it's not actually as impossible as you seem to think. It also allows you to maintain the build completion time within a window that's comfortable for you. 

Sure, but again, the issue here isn't simply that players who do keep to a rigorous schedule are inconvenienced, but that players who keep to an okay-ish schedule are inconvenienced disproportionately. You could equalize the difference with Platinum, but then again, if you wanted to use plat, you wouldn't be building Forma manually, you could just buy Forma packs for cheap to begin with. 

Quote

Selling a single part/set, or a syndicate mod/weapon, could easily do the same. We're talking minutes worth of effort in some cases. To save you, hours. Seems like a decent trade to me. 

Sure, but that plat could easily have gone towards something much more interesting. Putting aside how aberrant it is to advocate for a game company deliberately inconveniencing its players in order for them to pay a real-money currency, the practical argument here is simply that the model you're suggesting isn't the model that exists. Players either spend plat to buy Forma directly or they go through the whole timer, there's no real reason for them to put plat into crafting times when Forma bundles are not that much more expensive.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Teridax68

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

You could equalize the difference with Platinum, but then again, if you wanted to use Plat, you wouldn't be building Forma manually, you could just buy Forma packs for cheap to begin with. 

Of course I would, if I wanted to build up forma rapidly and didn't care about the plat, I would buy the packs. On the other hand if time was on my side I wouldn't have a problem with just building the free forma when I felt like. If I was in the middle of the two extremes, I would build for free and make up for any lost time with a bundle. If I only had a little extra plat, well rushing is cheaper on the small scale. It's not a difficult thing to grasp.

6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but that plat could easily have gone towards something much more interesting. 

Opportunity cost is a concept that permeates this entire game. And if you are working on dropping a bunch of forma into a weapon or frame, then that forma is a very interesting commodity indeed. 

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Putting aside how aberrant it is to advocate for a game company deliberately inconveniencing its players in order for them to pay a real-money currency, the practical argument here is simply that the model you're suggesting isn't the model that exists.

Uhhh.... Of course it exists. Just because some people choose not to take advantage of it doesn't make it stop existing. And if we are putting things aside, let's put aside the idea that anyone is doing it to inconvenience you in order to make money off of you. You can stockpile platinum without ever buying any, if you want to. If you don't want to, or don't want to spend any on something, then that's fine. But to turn around and complain that you can't do something that's got a very simple solution is dishonest and disingenuous. 

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Players either spend plat to buy Forma directly or they go through the whole timer, there's no real reason for them to put plat into crafting times when Forma bundles are not that much more expensive.

The option exists. You choose to not use it. That's fine. But if you don't have as much spare plat, or you only want it for convenience sake.... Then that's the better option. 

 

Again pretty easy to grasp. 

[Eirshy]

Honestly, every single timer that is a multiple of 24 should be reduced by 1-4 hours, solely so you don't (necessarily) have to drift forward by a whole extra day if you started the oven late at night. This is why most games do player-started timers at something like 22 hours- it gives the player a bit more wiggle room as to when they can come back the next day to collect on that timer.

This is why I find anyone claiming "oh but then you'll just want it reduced more later" to be idiotic. There's going to be a forward drift in the time-of-day for any 24hr timer you can consistently trigger, no matter how "convenient" the app makes resetting it- entirely because you can't instantaneously trigger the timer. This means that, eventually, the timer will go off during a timer period that you cannot be available for, and you'll thus have to wait until you are This artificially adds up to a whole extra day to timers as Sleep is typically gonna be the most common cause of "I can't get to the timer when it finishes". Especially if someone is playing wf before bed and went to bed after finishing farming something to craft.

What's that, you put the frame in the oven at 2340 on Saturday? Well, see you on Wednesday instead of Tuesday, Tenno.

When you have a glut of new-to-you content, you can stave this problem largely off by having multiple irons in the fire. But if you don't have a lot of new content available because you're either brand new or a long-standing veteran, you can't set a whole bunch of timers in parallel because there just aren't enough timers you can set.

Lowering all 24*n hour timers by any amount (advised, 1-4 hours; 2 is likely the "ideal") would cause the "frame is in the oven" hiatus to more often last only 3 days. Lowering them further wouldn't save an entire day until you reduce them by a full 25+ hours.

 

At the same time, I'd recokon starting the bake on a warframe/weapon has one of the strongest correlations with logging in again within a week. Thus, inducing an extra 24hr delay actually gives DE another 24hrs to create more content we might be interested in, and thus keep us hooked. It's a bit insidious and annoying, but at the same time, waiting an extra day for pixels isn't that horrible unless there's a double-EXP weekend coming up lol

 

_{On forma specifically, what, you don't just trade to other players then buy the 35p-for-3 bundle?}
^{I farmed over 30 forma from the first run of Plague Star. I was buying forma bundles again within a week.
I don't get how anyone could be "satisfied" with the default trickle of BP-crafted forma.}

Edited September 13, 2018 by Eirshy

[Teridax68]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Of course I would, if I wanted to build up forma rapidly and didn't care about the plat, I would buy the packs. On the other hand if time was on my side I wouldn't have a problem with just building the free forma when I felt like. If I was in the middle of the two extremes, I would build for free and make up for any lost time with a bundle. If I only had a little extra plat, well rushing is cheaper on the small scale. It's not a difficult thing to grasp.

Again, your mental model is really nice, but isn't one everyone else follows. People tend to be pretty binary in how they spend plat, so when it comes to this they'll either buy a bundle or build Forma. People who wouldn't usually buy a bundle won't do so just to make up for lost time, and people who won't buy a bundle are also unlikely to spend a comparable amount of plat just to rush a build. None of this is difficult to grasp.

26 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Opportunity cost is a concept that permeates this entire game. And if you are working on dropping a bunch of forma into a weapon or frame, then that forma is a very interesting commodity indeed. 

Sure, but just because there are options does not mean those options are equally viable or desirable. When it comes down to it, players would much rather pay for fun extra content than to skip an inconvenience, and in the grand scheme of things it is in DE's interest to push the players towards the former, rather than the latter, as forcing inconvenience into their own game through grinding and waiting times is what daunts so many players who'd otherwise be interested in the game.

26 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Uhhh.... Of course it exists. Just because some people choose not to take advantage of it doesn't make it stop existing. And if we are putting things aside, let's put aside the idea that anyone is doing it to inconvenience you in order to make money off of you. You can stockpile platinum without ever buying any, if you want to. If you don't want to, or don't want to spend any on something, then that's fine. But to turn around and complain that you can't do something that's got a very simple solution is dishonest and disingenuous. 

Again, what you are trying to say is that your imaginary model of how people behave and spend their money is what applies in practice. It doesn't. People don't pay plat to speed up building times on resources they could just as easily buy directly. Just because an option exists does not make said option viable, which is why buying base resources and mod packs for plat are largely seen as traps. It is possible to get plat from other players, but ultimately, that plat had to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is almost always a monetary purchase. It is the very pretense that Platinum isn't somehow tied to real-world currency that is disingenuous.

26 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The option exists. You choose to not use it. That's fine. But if you don't have as much spare plat, or you only want it for convenience sake.... Then that's the better option. 

 

Again pretty easy to grasp. 

Again, the niche situation you are concocting right here for the purpose of your argument is not a realistic situation. If a player has even a small amount of Plat, and wants to spend it on Forma, they can and will buy a Forma bundle. Paying to accelerate build times costs similar amounts of Plat for lesser overall returns, which is precisely why it is not an option most people use. Again, pretty easy to grasp.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Again, your mental model is really nice, but isn't one everyone else follows. People tend to be pretty binary in how they spend plat, so when it comes to this they'll either buy a bundle or build Forma. People who wouldn't usually buy a bundle won't do so just to make up for lost time, and people who won't buy a bundle are also unlikely to spend a comparable amount of plat just to rush a build. None of this is difficult to grasp.

It's not my mental model, it's a feature of the game. Please feel free to check on that if you have any doubts. 

And what people choose to do is entirely up to them, but for them to try and complain about the choices that they made when they had alternatives, is well, quite silly isn't it? If you stood in the rain and later complained that you got wet, when stepping inside would have kept you dry, you wouldn't get much sympathy. Not even if you said "well I know it's an option but I don't really want to do that because it would involve some effort on my part and I'm saving that effort for something else". 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

It is the very pretense that Platinum isn't somehow tied to real-world currency that is disingenuous.

Really? Because I am pretty sure that you can get platinum in this game without spending money. I actually gave a simple outline for how people do it. Was it wrong? I don't think that it is. 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Again, the niche situation you are concocting right here for the purpose of your argument is not a realistic situation. If a player has even a small amount of Plat, and wants to spend it on Forma, they can and will buy a Forma bundle. Paying to accelerate build times costs similar amounts of Plat for lesser overall returns, which is precisely why it is not an option most people use. Again, pretty easy to grasp.

Say you sold a single part for 10 platinum and that's all you are willing to spend.... According to your suggestion you'll buy a bundle that they can't actually afford.... Doesn't make sense. 

Please check your math on that and let me know. 

Rushing the forma with plat is currently an option and allows you to easily reset the build end time as needed. The fact that the option doesn't interest you strongly suggests that it's not as big of a problem as you are suggesting. ☺️

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

15 hours ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

If not losing a second to build a forma is so important to you, use the app.

This poor argument again? Some of us actually play the game and may be in mission when the forma timer finishes. Are we supposed to sit in our ship and just wait for it to finish so we can maintain a schedule? Besides, it's not like most humans maintain a schedule with 100% accuracy every day so even if you have no real life commitments and have your phone in your hand all day (yes, some people do this) you would still lose time from loading the app.

At this point reducing forma to a 22-hour build time is the least DE can do. It would allow players to maintain a normal schedule or make up time if they are late one day. And even if you have no real life commitments you would only be able to craft an extra forma every 13th day so it's not like DE loses any money since those players can grind relics any time and aren't purchasing forma bundles.

Having a 22-hour forma build timer is just a convenient change that doesn't affect DE's bottom line in the slightest since 22 hours is still too long for impulsive players to wait. All it does it allow players to maintain a schedule.

[Jobistober]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Rushing the forma with plat is currently an option and allows you to easily reset the build end time as needed.

Great point here. Again, it comes down to using the tools and mechanics at our disposal to manage out time efficiently.

Also worth noting that rush costs slowly diminish over an item's build time. If someone wants to start another forma before they log off for the night but still have one building in the foundry, they can rush it and start another. If the forma they rush is nearly complete, it should cost around 6 plat to finish it and instantly start another one.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

20 minutes ago, Jobistober said:

Great point here. Again, it comes down to using the tools and mechanics at our disposal to manage out time efficiently.

Also worth noting that rush costs slowly diminish over an item's build time. If someone wants to start another forma before they log off for the night but still have one building in the foundry, they can rush it and start another. If the forma they rush is nearly complete, it should cost around 6 plat to finish it and instantly start another one.

Considering that you can pay 10 plat to rush the entire 24 hour timer, paying 6 plat just to finish it is the definition of inefficient.

While platinum provides a definite alternative to building forma, the process should not be inconvenient just for that reason. Warframes and weapons are different since they and are typically one-time builds so the 12/24/72 hour timers are not an issue. Catlysts and Reactors are harder to acquire so again, not an issue. But forma can be built every day and are required in massive amounts so they should be more convenient from the start.

Edited September 13, 2018 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph