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Warframe Chat Moderation: Assessment and Renovation


Fallen_Echo
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Im pretty sure most people already know the problems of the region chats moderation but if not im happy to list them.

When kicks happen whenever the user feels they are justified or not theres no information given, the chat just goes silent and the user may only notice it because the lively chats suddenly became abadoned.

The same course happens for bans the offenders may or may not get a message (thought this might be fixed now), the offfenders after the initial message doesnt get any information what they done wrong, how long they are banned which causes further confusion.

This becomes infuriating if the offender fell for a trolls trick or accidentally typed in a word what is somewhere in a faraway place is considered as an insult, a slur.


My goal here is to improve the system in a way what creates an enviroment where someone can make a mistake and learn from it while also punishes repeat offenders harshly.

Here it goes:

 

 

1.) Instead of banning/kicking for minor mistakes like typing into the wrong chat the bot from now on posts your message in the proper chat and sends out a warning that these kind of messages should be posted in X chat window.

 You can make 3 errors per day and the bot warns you to use the proper chat before it bans you. The duration of the ban is 1 day.

 

2.) Instead of banning/kicking the bot now simply deletes your messages if it deemes it as spamYou will get a warning and can make 2 mistakes per day of joining in a spam line before you get banned. The duration of the ban is 1 day.

 

3.) When someone tries to use an insult or slur whats currently prohibited the bot simply deletes the message and warns the user that this kind of thing is not welcome here.

  • You get 1 warning and the next one is the ban.

  • One warning is universal in this case and its active for 240 hours, if the user uses another word whats prohibited the minimum ban is 2 days.

  • Each new warning from the initial increases the ban lenght by 2 days while also resets the hour counter on them.

  • If an user accumulates 10 warnings the bot sends a report to an avaible moderator who can decide if the user is worthy of having chat access, if the mod decides that the user is unworthy of it hes banned from the chat system completely for atleast half year.

  • For the whole duration of banning and warning cooldown the users who crossed the line are marked so everyone can decide whenever they want to talk with them.

 

4.) The bans only affect the main chats and never the squadchat and the clan chat. Those are private areas. The pm system usage is limited to friends only.

Clan chat gets its own chat filter system what can be edited by the leader and the highest ranking officers of the clan, they also can set the duration of the punishment they give out there.

 

5.) Thought the users while still can use the squad, clan and pm chats their names are marked with a small message next to their username [banned for X] for the duration of the ban.

Users can also see whats going on the other chats but cannot write in them.

Users while can only message their friends in the pm system they are kept open for those who want to communicate privately. The only limit in how to talk to someone who is not a friend in a ban period is that the other side must start the conversation.

 

6.) The warnings given by the bot or a moderator in all case have the following information:

  • What you typed in, soo you can see your error.

  • What warning is this. If you get warned for spamming the message will clearly says "You have been warned for spamming"

  • Incase of insults and slurs a message claiming why is this prohibited and what else similar is prohibited thought no clear examples are given

  • What will happen if you continue the prohibited behaviour, kick, 1 day ban, etc..

 

 

7.) The bans given by the bot or moderators in all cases have the following information and message:

  • A simply start what makes the message appear more personal."Hello anotherbannedone ......."

  • A copy of the text what has banned you " you have been banned for typing [you sausage people make me sick] "

  • A reason why that text is banned " ,this and the similar insults were deemed unrespectful and hurtful for the community "

  • Information on how long is the ban is " for this you have been banned and marked for 48 hours "

  • And finally a system message what tells you how much warnings or marks you accumulated for this "This is your 2nd warning in this period"

 

8.) The bot should have no downtime to avoid the mess what can be seen at early and late hours.


9.) The bot can still kick people from the chat but as soon as the player relogs he is met with a warning saying that approtiate manner is requied to use chats. No further punishment is done.

 

10.) A new report function is added named chat report. This report send a copy of the message X user posted to the bot who attaches any info on the users current warnings to it and forwards it to any active moderator to check if it tried to avoid a bot ban.

This function is avaible on all chats with the adddition that you can select "mute and report" in squad chat if you think someone crossed the lines too much.

 

11.) Additionally the chat suspension should be alwaly negotiable like when your message gets removed here.

When you get the warning and you dont agree with it you can forward it to another random moderator for overruling.

If that fails you stay in the ban/keep your warning or in some cases you get a longer ban depending on behaviour, IF its successfull you lose the warning or get out of the ban while you also get tagged as [justified] for mods what makes sure that the original banner/warning giver cant reban you as vengeance or pettyness.

 

Subpoints, these are suggestions what does not necessearly connect in a direct way to the main suggestion but could also eliminate other unnecesseary elements from the chat.

 

Subpoint 1: I propose the idea of an automatic search system incorporated into the whole chat system. We all know that various plat scammers are trying to get people buy their plat and this is both annoying and dangerous for foolish people. I suggest that all messages are scanned for containing combinations of links, real life money names and plat.

When a message is caught up in this filter an automatic mark is added to the message sent: PLAT SCAM, REPORT USER? 

If you click on the message a window opens where you can confirm if it is a plat scam and send the report directly to the support and to an active moderator to act and temporarly revoke the chat rights of the said user if it is really a plat scam.

 

 

Obviously a change like this needs big upgrades on the whole system such as additional capacity upgrade for keeping warnings and more server power to avoid downtimes, but i believe an update like this can go in great ways to reduce toxicity, trolling and overall unwanted behaviours.

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Great suggestions!

I personally agree with most of what you added, and I would go a step further and add that more human moderators should be recruited. I notice that many moderators work very hard, but this player base is expanding at a tremendous rate. It would be a huge help to have the moderation team keep up with this player base in some fashion in terms of size. This goes for both in game chat and the Warframe Forums. I notice quite a few members here on the forums who are extremely active and while they don't have moderator tags, they assist with educating people on proper sub forums and guidelines. I assume in-game chat has a similar crowd of players there. Those are the types of additions that not only strengthen the community, but reinforce rules and guidelines without causing more hassle for DE Staff as well as the other community moderators.

Additionally, players should be able to use Chat links with brackets to link [Support] and [Chat Guidelines] so that the players, moderators, and the bot have a resource to show people rules they may have broken while using the chat system. Transparency for bans would reduce much of the frequent clutter on the forums, especially if players were reminded by the bot to say something like: "Visit [Support] and not the forums to inquire about your ban". Explaining the length of their ban (usually 7 days if I am not mistaken) would also remedy the situation.

Edited by --Q--Voltage
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You and I were discussing something similar before, OP. Many of your suggestions are good but they may be a bit more complicated to implement if it's similar to the way irc chats and chatbots work. What you've suggested would help a lot of the innocent people who get tricked into bans by the trolls. 

I would like to propose that there is a reworking of what bans do. Let the banned person see what is going on in the region chat/clan/trade/squad, but not participate. Just make it so that their ability to send messages to the chat server is turned off. I think that this will be worth the effort for the devs. Since the person is allowed to see what is going on in the chat, there's an added ability to learn from the mistakes of others. For the innocent it means that while they are not allowed to contribute they can still benefit from the information. For the trolls it will act as salt in the wound and a constant reminder that they aren't able to do those things that got them banned. 

 

I liked the idea of granting "channel admin status with local bot privilege" to clan leaders, because it's very similar to the way the Undernet used to work, but it would probably be a lot more complicated than even the kickbot modification you described above.

 

 

I will say that I strongly believe that with what I described whenever moderators feel the need to/are required to step in and hand out bans, that the duration of the actions should be significantly higher than the bot. 

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11 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

-snip-

I tried to stay with oly updating the automatic system, obviusly we do need much more human moderators and constant attention from DE on the current ban word lists too.

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I would like to propose that there is a reworking of what bans do. Let the banned person see what is going on in the region chat/clan/trade/squad, but not participate. Just make it so that their ability to send messages to the chat server is turned off. I think that this will be worth the effort for the devs. Since the person is allowed to see what is going on in the chat, there's an added ability to learn from the mistakes of others. For the innocent it means that while they are not allowed to contribute they can still benefit from the information. For the trolls it will act as salt in the wound and a constant reminder that they aren't able to do those things that got them banned. 

With minor spelling error in the original suggestion, its already in the list.

11 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

5.) Thought the users while still can use the squad, clan and pm chats their names are marked with a small message next to their username [banned for X] for the duration of the ban. Users can also see whats going on the other chats but cannot write in them.

 

 

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I will say that I strongly believe that with what I described whenever moderators feel the need to/are required to step in and hand out bans, that the duration of the actions should be significantly higher than the bot. 

The main aim to upgrade the bot to act and work better so if someone goes out and tries hard to type in his racial slurs and other madness in a way it wont trigger the bot, the new report function can directly flag a person to the mods who can now ban them for half a year.

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  • 1 month later...

TLDR upfront: Warframe should have a warning system in place before instant chat suspensions.

So after being chat suspended recently and without warning, my enjoyment of Warframe has definitely gone down. In region chat there was a bunch of memeing and joking about thick warframes and the such, some comments about Nezha were made, to which I added on to the conversation "nezha = trap". All of a sudden, I get instantly chat suspended without any notice. My first thoughts were just, "ok, I guess I can't post to region for a bit, thats not too bad", but then I realized that I couldn't talk to my clan, lfg, trade, or even whisper people. This made me upset and so I decided to look into the issue more on the forums and other such places, only to see that this same thing has happened many, many times and often with bans lasting for an entire week which was also confirmed when I asked support about this.

This really confused and upset me for several reasons:

1) This is the first time this has happened to me, and I also had not looked into people getting suspended before this, so I had no idea that this would get me chat suspended.

2) Many other online games that I play or have played (Guild Wars 2, League of Legends, EVE Online, Elite Dangerous, Star Wars the Old Republic) have a chat system where you don't get instantly banned for saying "gay" or "trap" or other words of such degree. Now I agree LoL and EVE aren't known for their great communities, but GW2 has an amazing community in it, and you don't get those chat bans for stuff like that. And generally, you'll get pinged with a warning if you start being too excessive about it.

3) A majority of this game revolves around using in game chat for a newer player like myself. I can't do vault runs, trade for plat, talk with my clan unless I want to discord which isn't as easy when you're in a mission, talk with my matchmade group, run derelict missions, key locked assassinations, and so on. Also I was wanting to start doing Eidelon hunts, but I guess that'll have to wait a week also. I know some of this stuff can be solo'd, but as a newer player I'm not comfortable with my set up to do so.

Now that the rant is over, I want to make my suggestions. Put in a warning system. That's my suggestion. Reading through the forum guidelines before posting this, I looked at the warning system for getting banned from the forums. Do something like that where it escalates in severity if you do it more, and where it gives you several warnings before outright suspending you. Still have kickbot delete your message, and then you get pinged saying something like "don't say that again or you'll be chat suspended". Alternatively, have a filter system to filter out those words or phrases.

I'd hate for some fresh new player accidentally say something that would get flagged and have them chat banned for a week, as that would kill their experience and now allow them to even ask questions or look for a clan without having outside knowledge. Even myself being a couple of months into the game still have questions, but this chat ban has kinda killed my fun as well.

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14 minutes ago, Synyc said:

TLDR upfront: Warframe should have a warning system in place before instant chat suspensions.

So after being chat suspended recently and without warning, my enjoyment of Warframe has definitely gone down. In region chat there was a bunch of memeing and joking about thick warframes and the such, some comments about Nezha were made, to which I added on to the conversation "nezha = trap". All of a sudden, I get instantly chat suspended without any notice. My first thoughts were just, "ok, I guess I can't post to region for a bit, thats not too bad", but then I realized that I couldn't talk to my clan, lfg, trade, or even whisper people. This made me upset and so I decided to look into the issue more on the forums and other such places, only to see that this same thing has happened many, many times and often with bans lasting for an entire week which was also confirmed when I asked support about this.

This really confused and upset me for several reasons:

1) This is the first time this has happened to me, and I also had not looked into people getting suspended before this, so I had no idea that this would get me chat suspended.

2) Many other online games that I play or have played (Guild Wars 2, League of Legends, EVE Online, Elite Dangerous, Star Wars the Old Republic) have a chat system where you don't get instantly banned for saying "gay" or "trap" or other words of such degree. Now I agree LoL and EVE aren't known for their great communities, but GW2 has an amazing community in it, and you don't get those chat bans for stuff like that. And generally, you'll get pinged with a warning if you start being too excessive about it.

3) A majority of this game revolves around using in game chat for a newer player like myself. I can't do vault runs, trade for plat, talk with my clan unless I want to discord which isn't as easy when you're in a mission, talk with my matchmade group, run derelict missions, key locked assassinations, and so on. Also I was wanting to start doing Eidelon hunts, but I guess that'll have to wait a week also. I know some of this stuff can be solo'd, but as a newer player I'm not comfortable with my set up to do so.

Now that the rant is over, I want to make my suggestions. Put in a warning system. That's my suggestion. Reading through the forum guidelines before posting this, I looked at the warning system for getting banned from the forums. Do something like that where it escalates in severity if you do it more, and where it gives you several warnings before outright suspending you. Still have kickbot delete your message, and then you get pinged saying something like "don't say that again or you'll be chat suspended". Alternatively, have a filter system to filter out those words or phrases.

I'd hate for some fresh new player accidentally say something that would get flagged and have them chat banned for a week, as that would kill their experience and now allow them to even ask questions or look for a clan without having outside knowledge. Even myself being a couple of months into the game still have questions, but this chat ban has kinda killed my fun as well.

If new players are running around spouting transphobic garbage like you, they can either buck up and not do it again, or walk.

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1 minute ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

If new players are running around spouting transphobic garbage like you, they can either buck up and not do it again, or walk.

In my opinion it's not really "transphobic garbage" if it's a one off comment, but if that's what you think then ok, that's not the point of my post anyways. The point is not about being able to say this stuff, I personally don't care that I can't say it, but about the lack of a warning before getting banned and not being able to enjoy the game as you did before

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2 minutes ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

If new players are running around spouting transphobic garbage like you, they can either buck up and not do it again, or walk.

Maybe pay attention to the first part where they said jokes were going around? The point here is that an instant ban from chat for a flagged word is a stupid way to handle it because not every conversation in region is serious. A lot of then are memes and jokes, and to get banned due to a flagged word with no waning when nobody saw it in any serious capacity is ridiculous. Also, saying somebody is a trap isn't inherently transphobic, especially a fictional character without feelings. It's probably more insulting to assume it was transphobic given that you're automatically assuming they meant something negative when no actual indication was given. maybe accept that it's a commonly used descriptive word that doesn't always get used as an insult.

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14 minutes ago, Synyc said:

In my opinion it's not really "transphobic garbage" if it's a one off comment, but if that's what you think then ok, that's not the point of my post anyways. The point is not about being able to say this stuff, I personally don't care that I can't say it, but about the lack of a warning before getting banned and not being able to enjoy the game as you did before

Well say thank you to likeminded individuals, who's trying to be the baddest child in the kindergarten, they're the reason DE is having auto ban on words.

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Describing Nehza as a trap is rude and insulting because the term has connotations of deception and lies, and because Nehza exhibits none of the behavior of a trap, using such a term carries the implication that appearance alone is enough to call someone deceptive and a liar.

We can argue about descriptive versus prescriptive rules for language after people stop using words like these as an excuse to harass and abuse fellow humans.

It doesn't really matter what the person saying it intends, but that's what is heard.  And no, this isn't a case of it being on the listener, because that is on the same bullS#&$ level as using "I'm sorry you were offended" instead of "I'm sorry for being offensive" thus putting the fault on the harmed party.  Instead of acting like a mature and responsible human being, just always making sure to never ever take responsibility or owning up to what one says and does.  This kind of behavior says "It doesn't matter to me what effects my actions have on others."  Not to mention, every single time, this kind of person might be able to dish it out, but sure as the sun rises can't take it in return, exposing the inherent hypocrisy.

 

...Besides, none of that is really relevant.  It's a spammed meme that spawns toxicity and makes the chat a worse place to be, and thus is banned.  An instaban is effective, because, well you ain't gonna do it again, ain't ya?  Then it's working exactly as intended.

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The chat bot operates under the same rulebook that the human chat moderators do. First offense or not, derogatory, sexist or racist comments will result in a week's ban at a minimum; users complaining that they did nothing wrong when posting derogatory/hate speech may have their bans extended longer than one week. We hold a zero tolerance policy towards such behavior, and repeated behavior of this manner can result in a permanent chat ban.

 

"I didn't know what it meant" or "this other player told me to say it" is not an excuse; you are responsible for knowing and understanding what it is you're writing and posting to the chat, as well as knowing, understanding and following the in-game rules, EULA and Terms of Use Agreement. This means that any time a user posts hate speech or derogatory comments, they will be handled as though they are intentionally violating the rules.

 

P.S. just saying "Trap" won't get you chat banned. The bot can detect certain contexts. Using this to try and 'game' the bot to post derogatory messages will likely get you suspended from chat by an actual moderator for a week. If you have to substitute letters for numbers or mess with the spelling of a word to avoid detection by the chat bot, then it's something you shouldn't be saying in the first place.

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8 hours ago, Synyc said:

I added on to the conversation "nezha = trap". All of a sudden, I get instantly chat suspended without any notice. My first thoughts were just, "ok, I guess I can't post to region for a bit, thats not too bad", but then I realized that I couldn't talk to my clan, lfg, trade, or even whisper people. 

😊 Just got that warm fuzzy feeling outside. 

 

Two points registered for me here. First, the immediate response to the action allowed you to recognise what you were banned for. This means that you have an opportunity to learn. Second you wouldn't have considered only being banned from region chat to be much of a punishment, but the all-chats ban had a definite effect. This means that it is an effective punishment, and not just a nuisance that you will feel would still make saying certain things 'worth it'. 

 

8 hours ago, Synyc said:

This is the first time this has happened to me,

And hopefully the last time as well, eh? 

8 hours ago, Synyc said:

Many other online games that I play or have played 

Which one of them is called "Warframe"? None? Then they don't matter to this conversation. When we are playing this game, we are bound by it's rules. 

 

8 hours ago, Synyc said:

A majority of this game revolves around using in game chat for a newer player like myself. 

Not really. For newer players grinding, progressing in the star chart, levelling up your syndicate standings, doing fissures,  earning ducats, tweaking builds, dropping forma into your gear and releveling all are very important and take a lot of time for newer players. The rewards you harvest will last far into the future. Try doing those instead of saying silly things in chat, you'll find it a lot more rewarding. 

 

 

Good luck, Tenno. 

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On 2018-09-04 at 3:03 AM, Sorenxoras said:

Maybe pay attention to the first part where they said jokes were going around?

"I was just joking" is not an excuse for violations of chat rules.  This is especially the case when those "jokes" are meant as a means to demean and dehumanize other people.  You might think it's funny to denigrate others, but many others, and most importantly DE, do not find it funny.

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13 hours ago, Synyc said:

TLDR upfront: Warframe should have a warning system in place before instant chat suspensions.

So after being chat suspended recently and without warning, my enjoyment of Warframe has definitely gone down. In region chat there was a bunch of memeing and joking about thick warframes and the such, some comments about Nezha were made, to which I added on to the conversation "nezha = trap". All of a sudden, I get instantly chat suspended without any notice. My first thoughts were just, "ok, I guess I can't post to region for a bit, thats not too bad", but then I realized that I couldn't talk to my clan, lfg, trade, or even whisper people. This made me upset and so I decided to look into the issue more on the forums and other such places, only to see that this same thing has happened many, many times and often with bans lasting for an entire week which was also confirmed when I asked support about this.

This really confused and upset me for several reasons:

1) This is the first time this has happened to me, and I also had not looked into people getting suspended before this, so I had no idea that this would get me chat suspended.

2) Many other online games that I play or have played (Guild Wars 2, League of Legends, EVE Online, Elite Dangerous, Star Wars the Old Republic) have a chat system where you don't get instantly banned for saying "gay" or "trap" or other words of such degree. Now I agree LoL and EVE aren't known for their great communities, but GW2 has an amazing community in it, and you don't get those chat bans for stuff like that. And generally, you'll get pinged with a warning if you start being too excessive about it.

3) A majority of this game revolves around using in game chat for a newer player like myself. I can't do vault runs, trade for plat, talk with my clan unless I want to discord which isn't as easy when you're in a mission, talk with my matchmade group, run derelict missions, key locked assassinations, and so on. Also I was wanting to start doing Eidelon hunts, but I guess that'll have to wait a week also. I know some of this stuff can be solo'd, but as a newer player I'm not comfortable with my set up to do so.

Now that the rant is over, I want to make my suggestions. Put in a warning system. That's my suggestion. Reading through the forum guidelines before posting this, I looked at the warning system for getting banned from the forums. Do something like that where it escalates in severity if you do it more, and where it gives you several warnings before outright suspending you. Still have kickbot delete your message, and then you get pinged saying something like "don't say that again or you'll be chat suspended". Alternatively, have a filter system to filter out those words or phrases.

I'd hate for some fresh new player accidentally say something that would get flagged and have them chat banned for a week, as that would kill their experience and now allow them to even ask questions or look for a clan without having outside knowledge. Even myself being a couple of months into the game still have questions, but this chat ban has kinda killed my fun as well.

After having watched this chat moderation trend develop for a few months, I think I'm prepared to offer some tentative conclusions about the motives of the people involved and what we can expect in the future. The total lack of communication since May is very telling.

Months ago, we asked for clear guidelines. We have received none.

I think the people who have a hand in the moderation system are benefiting from the vagueness: freedom to interpret the rules as you see fit to give you as much latitude as possible. This is common throughout multiple instances of hobbies/communities being attacked by a vocal minority that wishes to control speech and behavior in the name of "tolerance" and "inclusivity." Sources reporting to us from within Council Chat and the various platforms where these people communicate have shown us that they rarely manage to conceal their contempt for anyone who doesn't blindly adhere to their code.

They only want power: the power to arbitrate and feel smugly superior while they do it.

I regret to tell you that DE has no plans to change anything about how their chat moderation is handled, or at least none based on feedback of the kind you're providing here. Three months of silence is enough for me.

 

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14 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

 Sources reporting to us from within Council Chat and the various platforms where these people communicate have shown us that they rarely manage to conceal their contempt for anyone who doesn't blindly adhere to their code.

 

Who's "us"? 

I'm not particularly interested in who the sources are, but this mysterious "us"... now that gets my interest. 

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

So...behaving like an intelligent, respectful human being who exercises an ounce of common sense isn't clear enough?

What a world.

This is the perfect example of the kind of insidious, moralizing smugness that has infected our community. You are so far down the hole that you can't even see your way back to the place where everyone else lives.

We're to do exactly what we're told, when we're told, and never ask questions. Outsourcing "intelligence," "respect" and "common sense" to a black box doesn't seem like a bad idea to you?

What a world indeed.

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4 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

This is the perfect example of the kind of insidious, moralizing smugness that has infected our community. You are so far down the hole that you can't even see your way back to the place where everyone else lives.

We're to do exactly what we're told, when we're told, and never ask questions. Outsourcing "intelligence," "respect" and "common sense" to a black box doesn't seem like a bad idea to you?

What a world indeed.

I dunno man, that's pretty close to where I live too. Because I have common sense, and respect for others, and some might call me intelligent, and somehow I tend to not get banned from the chat very often. 

 

 

Coincidence? I think not. 

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people still fall the old "trap" trap? you do know there always some "predators" in the chat who bait newbies and those who never learn with such crаptalk? you don't? well, now you know.

and as for the warning, the suspension was the warning since it's timed. keep in mind the canadian from DE are still a bit victorian in their moral view and such kind of talk isn't liked. if you want to know which "topic" you should rather avoid taking part in, just search the forum for such complains as yours.

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6 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

This is the perfect example of the kind of insidious, moralizing smugness that has infected our community. You are so far down the hole that you can't even see your way back to the place where everyone else lives.

We're to do exactly what we're told, when we're told, and never ask questions. Outsourcing "intelligence," "respect" and "common sense" to a black box doesn't seem like a bad idea to you?

What a world indeed.

"Insidious, moralizing smugness". Hilarious.

There is no hole. Take the tinfoil hat off. 

Are you telling me, that you don't know the definitions of the words "intelligence", "respect" and "common sense". Are you telling me, that you can't act in a way that can't get you banned from a chatroom? Do you really need to be dictated on how to behave in a public setting (within the confines of a private game)? The only people who require to be told how to behave, and what to do, are children, because they don't know better. Do you not know better?

 

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I dunno man, that's pretty close to where I live too. Because I have common sense, and respect for others, and some might call me intelligent, and somehow I tend to not get banned from the chat very often. 

 

 

Coincidence? I think not. 

Not a coincidence, although I'd say you're misattributing the cause.

How do you define "common sense" and "respect for others? People tend to have different ideas for how these things are defined, and most people also default to the assumption that their definition is the only valid one, so it's important not to get hung up talking past each other.

I'm afraid you'll be disappointed with my answer to the "us" question. It's just a group of players who associate outside the game to speak more freely than Warframe's public chats would allow. We're free to discuss the debilitating effects of ligma, as well as any concerns with DE's policies and the behavior of their volunteers. It's also a sort of failsafe against egregious misbehavior on the part of anyone associated with DE, because that information can be collected and archived. Think of it as being akin to holding public officials accountable for their execution of the office.

 

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14 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

I'm afraid you'll be disappointed with my answer to the "us" question. It's just a group of players who associate outside the game to speak more freely than Warframe's public chats would allow.

Sounds suspicious. Someone should start a watch list. 😒

 

15 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

How do you define "common sense" and "respect for others? People tend to have different ideas for how these things are defined, and most people also default to the assumption that their definition is the only valid one, so it's important not to get hung up talking past each other.

Well my default seems to be working most of the time, so it probably is a valid assumption.

 

If I were getting into trouble, I would need to reassess my ideas of what is acceptable in the chat. That's where a lot of people seem to be getting lost. They think that the solution isn't to temporarily change their behaviour to avoid getting into trouble. They think that ranting about how dumb the system is for not letting them do whatever they want is a better solution. 

The idea here is that we're all responsible for our own actions. When they fall afoul of the rules, even ones we don't know we are breaking, we're the ones who are ultimately responsible. How we respond to the punishment is an important indicator, in my eyes, of whether we intend to make a change to our behaviour, or continue to try and break the rules. 

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Sounds suspicious. Someone should start a watch list. 😒

Someone probably already has.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Well my default seems to be working most of the time, so it probably is a valid assumption.

 

If I were getting into trouble, I would need to reassess my ideas of what is acceptable in the chat. That's where a lot of people seem to be getting lost. They think that the solution isn't to temporarily change their behaviour to avoid getting into trouble. They think that ranting about how dumb the system is for not letting them do whatever they want is a better solution. 

The idea here is that we're all responsible for our own actions. When they fall afoul of the rules, even ones we don't know we are breaking, we're the ones who are ultimately responsible. How we respond to the punishment is an important indicator, in my eyes, of whether we intend to make a change to our behaviour, or continue to try and break the rules. 

That's where most disagreement is going to happen. Many people here are thinking in very absolutist terms: on one side, people wanting no regulation of what they can say in chat. On the other, those who say there's no room for questioning the system.

Neither extreme is useful.

It sounds like you're starting from a foundational belief that the rules are perfect. I don't think that's actually what you believe, but I want you to have a chance to explain it. I definitely don't think we have a "perfect" system of rules and rule enforcement, which is part of the reason I continue to question it.

We can make it better than it is, and the only way to make room for change is to question. If questioning the rules is seen as equivalent to breaking them, then we have a serious problem. This is where things definitely get a little confusing, because a lot of people aren't able to articulate their questions or challenges to existing rules. They act these questions out - breaking the rules. 

Ideally, there's an open channel of dialogue between the people who make/enforce the rules and the people who are expected to abide by the rules (this latter group is larger and should include the former). Part of the frustration within Warframe's community comes from the fact that we don't actually know who is involved in the creation and enforcement of rules. We don't know who does what, because both DE and other parties claim to have pull here.

In addition, the rules don't appear to be enforced evenly. This is another sticky spot, because some people make this accusation for no reason besides muckraking. That means it's easy for moderators to view it as "non-constructive" and remove links to material that might substantiate the claim.

In all this, I've found it's a constant struggle to avoid being dismissed as a mere troublemaker. People who question or complain about the rules seem to suffer from the same sort of collective labeling, and it takes a lot of talking to reach a point where I'm confident about making a claim to know someone's motives. Imagine the difficulty of being written off by people who seem to refuse any sort of scrutiny themselves.

Quite a few people would say I'm wasting my time continuing to discuss this stuff at any length. For the people who don't have the patience or the words, I think someone should.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

It sounds like you're starting from a foundational belief that the rules are perfect. I don't think that's actually what you believe, but I want you to have a chance to explain it. I definitely don't think we have a "perfect" system of rules and rule enforcement, which is part of the reason I continue to question it.

There's the thing, I don't need to believe that the rules are perfect, to understand that if I am in your house, then your rules trump my opinion of them. I can disagree with you about where lines should be drawn, but at the end of the day, you will be the person with the last word. The same goes for people in my house. 

I personally think that some of the words on the list are ridiculously outdated, and should be purged. But I would also probably change the bans to be incremental to the point of being called a tyrant. And trolls who do stuff to get people kicked or banned would start at a month long ban that I would want to find a way to tie to a mac address, so there's no bypassing by creating a throwaway account. 

But you see, I was a moderator in an IRC channel for years and ran something very similar to the kickbot so, I actually already know that I don't care if people don't like my way of doing stuff. 😈

If you came to me about adding words to the list, I would clear it with the group and then add all the variants I could think of so that people trying to substitute letters and numbers got picked up. I would adjust it over the course of a couple of weeks and I was generally present when the bot was running. (It also played Trivia with locally relevant questions, which was nice.) 

28 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

We can make it better than it is, and the only way to make room for change is to question. If questioning the rules is seen as equivalent to breaking them, then we have a serious problem. This is where things definitely get a little confusing, because a lot of people aren't able to articulate their questions or challenges to existing rules. They act these questions out - breaking the rules. 

No. Questioning the rules isn't equivalent to breaking them. Neither is attempting to change them. I know that because I have been involved in discussions about changing the chat kickbot system on this forum. Ranting about being banned however, is equivalent to breaking the rules, because it shows a basic lack of remorse and an unwillingness to abide by the rules. Read the initial post carefully. The OP knows that's what they did. They weren't anywhere near as bad as some others, which I assume is why we're having this chat. 

37 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

Ideally, there's an open channel of dialogue between the people who make/enforce the rules and the people who are expected to abide by the rules (this latter group is larger and should include the former). Part of the frustration within Warframe's community comes from the fact that we don't actually know who is involved in the creation and enforcement of rules. We don't know who does what, because both DE and other parties claim to have pull here.

Why? It's not a democracy. We do not and should not have a vote. It doesn't matter if one of your rules is actually from one of your kids, or grandfathered down. If you say that it's a rule, then we must abide or leave. 

If I want to propose a change, I believe that I can do so. I do not expect them to adopt it unless they are interested in doing so. 

44 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

In addition, the rules don't appear to be enforced evenly. 

I'm not surprised. I suspect that I have seen the kickbot slacking off on the job, and so dearly wish that we could have draconian mods pop in from time to time, and hand out long-term bans to anyone who has said "free plat to the first person who says" or "backwards" in the past 24 hours. Remember that I said that I've done chat moderation in the past, even with a script that sat on my personal IRC client, I couldn't make it behave all the time, sometimes stuff went wrong. Believe me, our kickbot is not a badly run bot. 

54 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

In all this, I've found it's a constant struggle to avoid being dismissed as a mere troublemaker. People who question or complain about the rules seem to suffer from the same sort of collective labeling, and it takes a lot of talking to reach a point where I'm confident about making a claim to know someone's motives. Imagine the difficulty of being written off by people who seem to refuse any sort of scrutiny themselves.

Try leaving out the personal grudges against the personalities. Deal with the current flaws in the system instead of how you think they got there. 

 

56 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

Quite a few people would say I'm wasting my time continuing to discuss this stuff at any length.

Do you care? It's your time. Waste it however you choose, so long as you can stay civil and focused, I doubt you will have much trouble. 

 

58 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

Someone probably already has.

Aha! So you admit that you are probably on a watch list! 

 

I've got my eye on you. 😒

 

Well not my actual eye, because that would be sort of gross and probably hurt. But you get the idea. 😐

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