Warframe Chat Moderation: Assessment and Renovation

[NovusNova]

Interesting feedback and while it remains just about chat moderation, we are willing to allow this to continue.

However this thread is not for a discussion about what words should or shouldn't be kick-able/ ban-able, that is up to DE to decide on, not the players or moderators. They give suggestions, just like everyone else but it is DE that ultimately decides whether to add or remove words/phrases.

Nor should this thread be used to name and shame any moderators or players.

If such behavior starts, then the thread will be re-evaluated and might be locked along with warnings handed out to users.

[notlamprey]

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

There's the thing, I don't need to believe that the rules are perfect, to understand that if I am in your house, then your rules trump my opinion of them. I can disagree with you about where lines should be drawn, but at the end of the day, you will be the person with the last word. The same goes for people in my house.

That's where it becomes a conversation about time scales, because in the very short term it's almost always better to just apply the rules. Moment-to-moment moderation decisions are probably best made simply by attempting to apply the rules as written. However, I think we have to have some space where things move slowly enough that the rules can be examined in a lower-intensity environment. Game chat moves too fast for it, and Twitter probably also moves too fast for it. These forums and the subreddit are our best bet, so I'm not surprised that people would try to do it here.

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Read the initial post carefully. The OP knows that's what they did. They weren't anywhere near as bad as some others, which I assume is why we're having this chat.

I think we're arriving at different interpretations of the OP. At worst, this looks to me like a case of someone making use of an opportunity to raise a point of recurring concern. If you're tired of hearing people talk about this, that's one thing. However, this would approach the most polite and respectful bit of intentional rule breaking possible. In a case like that, my annoyance is secondary to their right to be annoying in service of making what is ultimately a reasonable suggestion.

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Why? It's not a democracy. We do not and should not have a vote. It doesn't matter if one of your rules is actually from one of your kids, or grandfathered down. If you say that it's a rule, then we must abide or leave. 

If I want to propose a change, I believe that I can do so. I do not expect them to adopt it unless they are interested in doing so.

The problem for DE in this area is that they've firmly set an expectation that we should have a say, going back over 5 years. Based on what I've seen, a fair amount of the frustration stems from a perception that DE is sometimes sending mixed messages and sometimes saying nothing at all. This wouldn't be the first time, and their communication on some topics appears very disorganized. That leaves a lot of room for people to speculate, regarding both DE's intentions and the intentions of the people asking questions or giving feedback.

That's not to say I could guarantee that "more communication" from DE would result in better outcomes, because it's probably in their best interest not to attempt "total transparency." Just like with casual one-on-one conversation, there's a limit on how much we can share before things get weird or break down. If there's some magical middle ground of disagreeing with DE's policy while trying to recognize why they'd use it, I'm trying to find that.

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I'm not surprised. I suspect that I have seen the kickbot slacking off on the job, and so dearly wish that we could have draconian mods pop in from time to time, and hand out long-term bans to anyone who has said "free plat to the first person who says" or "backwards" in the past 24 hours. Remember that I said that I've done chat moderation in the past, even with a script that sat on my personal IRC client, I couldn't make it behave all the time, sometimes stuff went wrong. Believe me, our kickbot is not a badly run bot.

A lot of the kickbot troubles could probably be obviated with a more robust and well-surfaced chat filter. Individual users already have the capability to filter chat channels by keyword. If this system were a bit more fleshed out and players were encouraged to become skilled at using it, that could very well ease pressure off the kickbot and the moderators. As it is, they're probably being asked to do too much and the end result is a policy that divides the community more than is necessary.

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Try leaving out the personal grudges against the personalities. Deal with the current flaws in the system instead of how you think they got there.

That's definitely been a point of trouble in the past, since it seems personalities from various quarters have done some amount of provocation. I'm hoping to avoid any of that here.

To try and address this point directly, I think there's a lack of visibility regarding what can trigger chat moderation. Key terms seem to change frequently, at a rate that would be burdensome for DE to keep us fully updated. Examples of this would include various internet jokes that have been subjectively judged to be annoying or played out.

I also think there's a lack of organized accountability within segments of the moderation system. Signs of preferential treatment according to certain variables that I won't mention here, for the sake of keeping the thread on track, have been reported at various points over the last few years. I mention this because I think many players would like more evidence that DE is trying to remedy the situation.

It's very easy for someone's attitudes and values to drift over time if they're constantly exposed to the same environment. A sizable group of players is increasingly frustrated that there are people in positions of influence who seem completely comfortable with openly antagonizing and denigrating players - or any segment of the community that incurs their personal displeasure.

In addition, social media is sometimes used by people who occupy moderation positions as an outlet for personal frustrations. I think that's inappropriate because it unnecessarily polarizes Warframe's community and public image. At best, it's unprofessional. Potentially, it's a significant drag on Warframe's popularity and profitability. None of us should want something like that. Some sort of unified social media policy should be considered as a means of hopefully preventing this kind of trouble, and to remove any temptation for individual volunteers to misuse their positions.

On that final point, specific examples are being omitted for the sake of keeping the thread on track and avoiding any possibility of a "witch hunt."

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by notlamprey

[Voltage]

Let me make this apparent right away. I have never been banned from chat. I love communicating with players online as I am active on the Forums, Reddit, in-game, and Discord daily for Warframe. I spend most of my activity for Warframe on the Forums lately, and I have noticed a disturbing trend.

Over the course of the year, I have seen an increasing amount of threads with titles such as: “I got banned from chat for saying X” and “Can we change Y about moderation?”. These threads usually conclude with a lock. While I do not disagree with locking a majority of these threads, it creates the image that it is frowned upon to question the practices done over the course of many months. Part of the problem is controlling toxic players, but there is also a problem with the way public chats are moderated. Specific members are not what I mean here. I will not be commenting on the Reddit post outlining a particular moderator, nor will I be naming anyone in this thread. If you do have a problem with a moderator, you should report them to the appropriate party.

[DE]Kickbot
The moderation bot for in-game chat needs to be updated. It does its job, but not effectively or transparently. Automated moderation is useful, but its power should be more structured. Currently, players are banned outright for an entire week at most for using a single word that is blacklisted. The reason this is a problem is because the bot shows no mercy, and it is unclear.

The chat bot should have features added to it. [DE]Kickbot should scrub the chat of blacklisted words and send a 24 suspension + warning to the player violating the guidelines on the first offense. Second offense players should be suspended for 7 days. A modified version of the official Warframe guidelines should be linked in chat using brackets. This modified guidelines page should contain a list of terms not tolerated by moderation staff. It should also include the fact that a suspension is a private matter and will not be solved on the Warframe Forums. Support should be mentioned as the proper resource to resolve the issue.

The bot is operated by Digital Extremes and they have the final say, but this bot still has many flaws that have been apparent since last year. Changing the bot does not mean we should give people a break. People who are in the wrong are still punished, but they are taught what is and is not acceptable within the Warframe community. This should be done without creating extra work for members of the moderation team.

[DE]Rebecca’s response on [DE]Kickbot.

Human Moderators

To put it simply: we need more. The Forums currently house around 4,232,000 registered members and rising with a peak of just over 157,000 online on August 9th, 2018 as per:

This is an insane amount of players for the handful of active moderators we have. I have witnessed numerous threads that are downright against the Terms of Service and/or Community Guidelines. All I can do is report them and possibly wait hours for the thread to be merged, locked, or even deleted. The most recent example was an extreme amount of threads per hour over the course of a week regarding the proposed Daily Tribute changes. These threads deserved to be merged to the Dev Workshop, but with the limited amount of moderators, the result was General Feedback and General Discussion left cluttered for long periods of time.

The player base is increasing at an alarming rate which is fantastic, but the moderation team needs to keep up. It is essential to recruit more moderators as it reduces the workload for current moderators, and it improves the user experience for players on all platforms. A consistent ratio of players to moderators should be established. Many players are out there that would hopefully be fit for moderating from the perspective of Digital Extremes.

This does not just go for the Warframe Forums. In-game chat requires intense moderation, and this cannot be handled solely by [DE]Kickbot. More details on why we need more moderators can be found here.

The Forums

The Warframe Forums is a place I have visited almost daily for the last two years. During my time spent on this platform, I have noticed many trends. The one that has stuck out to me for months is the frequency of account/chat suspension threads. This mess is a great shame for all players, and I hope my suggestions/ideas above can contribute to reducing the issues discussed.

“My account was suspended.”
These threads can be greatly reduced in number if a reasoning for a ban can be added to the current ban message.

Current Message: “Your account has been suspended until January 1st, 2035 for violating the End-User License Agreement/Terms of Service/Code of Conduct.”
Proposed Message: “Your account has been suspended until January 1st, 2035 for violating the End-User License Agreement/Terms of Service/Code of Conduct. This was because <insert general reasoning>. You may contact Warframe Support to resolve this issue and be given more specific reasoning. Do not bring this issue to the Warframe Forums.”

“My access to chat was suspended [for saying X].”
These threads are primarily due to the confusion of being banned with no word on the reasoning, length, and severity of a chat suspension. Going with the ideas proposed above, the changes made to the message will not only help moderators on the Forums, but also teach players.

Current Message: “Your access to in-game chat has been suspended.”
Proposed Message: [DE]Kickbot (in a PM): “Your access to in-game chat has been suspended for <insert duration of ban> for saying: (message break) <quotation of what you said>. (message break) This is unacceptable behavior and violates the [Chat Guidelines] (provides a link to the guidelines). Please visit Support for assistance if the suspension lasts longer than the suspension duration given. Do not bring this issue to the Warframe Forums.

In conclusion, clarity, transparency, and strength should be brought to moderation enforcement throughout the game and its associated platforms. I hope these ideas and points of feedback benefit the player base. I am merely giving my feedback on the moderation habits over my time playing and interacting in Warframe.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Voltage
Grammar, Clarity

[SquinkyJunior]

I really like where you're going with this. I only got banned from chat once, because I accidentally said the same thing twice, which I hadn't realized was illegal. In light of that, more transparency and clarity as to the reason for a ban would be really nice. Definitely like where you're taking this, though. 🙂 

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

In an old ticket, I was told that "Any kick or ban from a chat channel is only temporary and you will have received a notification as to the reason for this action being taken against your account, at the time it was taken" and also "We will remind our moderators that they need to send messages to users who are suspended in chat."

Ever since I was told that back in December of 2017, I have still never received a notification as to the reason for any of my kicks/suspensions, not from any of the mods. All of the warnings I receive are usually borderline nonsense, such as "That's not an appropriate topic for our space-ninja game!" even though Region chat is off-topic most of the time anyway, and on the other hand it's very easy to accidentally break a rule while still being on topic. 

Also, I think that it is MANDATORY that suspensions should plainly display how long they last. Instead of simply saying "Your access to this channel and/or in-game chat has been suspended" it should say "Your access to this channel and/or in-game chat is suspended for [remaining time]." If Trade chat can have a visible timer, so can chat bans.

[peterc3]

You use DE's platform to communicate at DE's pleasure. Your warning was you agreeing to the ToS when making an account.

If you can't chat with other people without accidentally using slurs or thinking calling something a joke or just a meme somehow makes something not offensive, reevaluate how you communicate with other people.

You are communicating with other, actual people and you should act in a way that acknowledges that fact.

52 minutes ago, Voltage said:

This mess is completely unnecessary and with the implementations and ideas above, it can be reduced considerably.

More people spewing trash means more people getting kicked. This can be true and also not mean there is an increasing issue. There are obviously things that can be improved, but when people start off a thread by saying they were just repeating something known to get people kicked and they are somehow surprised by getting kicked, or saying something really offensive but it was just a joke, or doing something to intentionally get around a kick, they should get no sympathy.

[Voltage]

23 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

More people spewing trash means more people getting kicked. This can be true and also not mean there is an increasing issue. There are obviously things that can be improved, but when people start off a thread by saying they were just repeating something known to get people kicked and they are somehow surprised by getting kicked, or saying something really offensive but it was just a joke, or doing something to intentionally get around a kick, they should get no sympathy.

You are correct! We should not give sympathy towards these players.

I also said this in a different way in another part of my post:

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Changing the bot does not mean we should give people a break. People who are in the wrong are still punished, but they are taught what is and is not acceptable within the Warframe community.

We can greatly reduce the number of future Forum threads regarding this issue, we can reduce a flood of Support tickets, and we can teach players the proper way to communicate in chat with more clarity. I do not think players who act in this way should be treated with an easier time. If they are told exactly what they did wrong, were advised not to use the Forums to inquire about the issue, and we had more volunteer moderators, threads like those you mentioned could be instantly deleted. The player could be given a Warning Point for not listening to the message received by [DE]Kickbot. My feedback is here to improve the life of a moderator and the user experience of a Warframe player, not give people more freedom to speak in inappropriate ways or to let people off easy. Please reread my original post if you are confused.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Voltage

[Sean]

If a person wants to use a word, they'll still find a way to do so.

Now context is key, but that is something impossible for a bot to understand. I'd hope that real human moderators would understand context a bit more, but I've seen a few act more akin to unthinking robots that cannot discern context when looking at a situation, usually throwing their own biases into the mix.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Blacklisted words should be in the hands of the players.

A system that takes the current chat filters and greatly expands upon them would ultimately work best for all parties.

As it is now, truly hateful garbage can easily slip past the bot.

 

• Allow players to access a menu within the Interface portion of their settings to manage "Blacklisted words".
• By default, this list would be the same list the bot uses and any line of text given that hits one of the words in this list would be replaced by **** (regardless of actual length).
• Any individual would be able to add to their own personal list, thus allowing slang or variations of insults to be added in, so no more worrying about what the bot can and cannot detect since you can add whatever you want.
• To those that don't find offense with words (within context), then they can opt-out of this profanity filter.
• Allow a parental lock for this list to prevent children from changing the list on their account.
  • Now it can be argued that children not mature enough to handle an online multiplayer game should simply not be playing the game, with what is currently bannable, it feels more that DE is trying to make Warframe closer to a "T for Teen" game.
• Anyone who spews out hateful garbage should be reported and, if a moderator is present, then banned.

 

 

----

Notes on how this differs from the current chat filters (since I've had people not quite understand that it is different):

• Current chat filters remove an entire line of text if a word is detected (useful for Trade Chat though)
• Current chat filters are tab specific.
• Current chat filters waste space by showing at the top of the chatbox and can sometimes reset for no reason.

[peterc3]

25 minutes ago, Sean said:

• Anyone who spews out hateful garbage should be reported and, if a moderator is present, then banned.

And if no mods are present?

Enabling people to spew hateful garbage for longer will not keep people in the game. Quite the opposite. You have also failed to acknowledge the primary rule in all of this. Anything you propose would be on top of what already exists. DE does not want their platform to be used to spread hateful language. If you suggestion allows that to happen, it has no chance of being entertained, let alone implemented.

28 minutes ago, Sean said:

• To those that don't find offense with words (within context), then they can opt-out of this profanity filter.

There is no context in which words like %&amp;^*ot or phrases like X is a trap are acceptable. Feel free to use one of numerous 3rd party communication channels to use such words in hilarious jokes you might share with friends, but spare the rest of us from your edgy comedy. There is no opting out of being held to DE's communication standards.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

4 hours ago, notlamprey said:

I think we're arriving at different interpretations of the OP. At worst, this looks to me like a case of someone making use of an opportunity to raise a point of recurring concern. 

Uh... No I'm taking them at their word? 

 

21 hours ago, Synyc said:

Now that the rant is over, I want to make my suggestions. 

Quote

2) QUALITY STANDARDS – Use our forums to talk to us and talk to each other in a constructive and respectful way that encourages interaction and thoughtful discussion. Stay on-topic, be constructive and use descriptive Topic titles. Don’t rage/rant post, name and shame, have misleading topic titles, post spam, advertisements, unreleased Design Council information, pornography or any other inappropriate, offensive or irrelevant content to the Forums in text, image, or video form. We will delete/edit it, and there will be consequences as per our warnings.

https://forums.warframe.com/guidelines/

 

As I said I don't think that this thread is a problem. There may be a stickler who decides that a self described rant is a problem given the letter of the rules. 

 

Regarding the action of the kickbot, there are things that I think should change, but I have to admit, it clearly shows what action was inappropriate, and the punishment is clearly unpleasant enough to ensure that they are unlikely to do it again. Anyone who has picked up repeat bans probably isn't anywhere near as smart as they think they are. I'd like to see more human intervention to slap major bans on the trolls who are actively encouraging new/stupid players to get kicked and banned. Maybe they can collect the sum of all the bans for the morons gullible people who followed their instructions. 

[notlamprey]

I'm not sure so sure that more volunteer moderation would be the way to go.

In the interest of promoting both consistency and accountability, I'd put forward the suggestion that a dedicated in-house moderation staff be created. Warframe seems very much to be an outlier in terms of how moderation is structured and carried out. That may not be all to the good.

Yes, this would cost money. DE would have to pay and train these people, and compliance with applicable law would present some challenges. However, I think the benefits of a "regular moderation corps" are worth the outlay. Some affordance will have to be made for current volunteers, but I'm confident that some restructuring agreement could be reached that would allow them continue serving in their current roles.

I think it's well worth asking if the most common complaints about Warframe's current moderation structure - consistency, activity, communication, etc. - could be tackled by some form of in-house solution.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

25 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

I'm not sure so sure that more volunteer moderation would be the way to go.

In the interest of promoting both consistency and accountability, I'd put forward the suggestion that a dedicated in-house moderation staff be created. Warframe seems very much to be an outlier in terms of how moderation is structured and carried out. That may not be all to the good.

Yes, this would cost money. DE would have to pay and train these people, and compliance with applicable law would present some challenges. However, I think the benefits of a "regular moderation corps" are worth the outlay. Some affordance will have to be made for current volunteers, but I'm confident that some restructuring agreement could be reached that would allow them continue serving in their current roles.

I think it's well worth asking if the most common complaints about Warframe's current moderation structure - consistency, activity, communication, etc. - could be tackled by some form of in-house solution.

I doubt that there will ever be enough of them to completely cover the field. I mean that. A hundred employees will probably not be enough to catch everything. (Understand that we only ever look at one server, on one platform at a time. Imagine being in trade chat for eight hours a day, actively trying to monitor all of the comments that fly past. That's what you would need the employees to do. That's inhumane.) 

 

A mixed approach would probably be better, bring in many people who play often and don't have any recent significant infringements, give them a guideline of what they should look for, have them flag stuff that the bot doesn't pick up on, (especially the trolls who are getting people banned). Then the actual moderators who hop on for an hour once a day, just review the activity and drop the ban hammer tungsten rod from orbit, as needed.

Any that don't get slammed are reverted to the person who recommended it, so they will know what to avoid flagging. The mods shouldn't know who made the recommendations so as to avoid favouritism. Anybody getting too many reverts (percentage wise) on what they flag in a short span, after an initial break in period, loses the ability to flag comments. 

[Mr.Mist]

Disclaimer: I did not support and suggest everyone to refrain from using profanity, sexist, racial, (etc.) comments on chat.

I am experiencing this ban, and i think it is breaking many core of the gameplay (that you mostly just have to play solo OR easy squad game)
Because All Chat is off (trading, whisper, squad, region, etc) (The only way to contact my teammate as i know is via steam chat, if already a friend)

I want to give a feedback to Warframe support but redirected here... so here i am


The Feedback:

The Problem exist is:
'Bad word' typing

The Solution:
1. Instant remove the chat (implemented)

2.Soft ban 1:
Disable ability to type, but can still read and/or whisper
(duration (X day),increasing for repetition)

3.After the soft ban x3,If the Problem persist from the same user (within 3 month/ 6 month/ 1 year)
Hard ban:
Current ban

If u want something harder then go on, at least start softer

I assume DE did not want to tolerate any of this inappropriate behavior, but sometimes it just happen out of the knowledge of the user (for the player is the entire world, and not all players know the slang-ish bad word, so it might affect their playing experience.

Additional Notes:
1.Please tell how long the ban will be
2.Take those people baiting for someone to trigger the ban

Hope this help maintain the player experience, and also reducing the unnecessary tickets to support

[peterc3]

You've demonstrated you cannot be trusted to use their communication platform.

What exactly does DE lose by changing nothing? People who say things on the list feel like they can no longer play the game or they change how they use the platform so they don't get banned. Seems like a win/win to me.

5 minutes ago, Mr.Mist said:

sometimes it just happen out of the knowledge of the user

Calling absolute BS on this.

[(PSN)NicolaiBM]

10 minutes ago, Mr.Mist said:

Disclaimer: I did not support and suggest everyone to refrain from using profanity, sexist, racial, (etc.) comments on chat.

I am experiencing this ban, and i think it is breaking many core of the gameplay (that you mostly just have to play solo OR easy squad game)
Because All Chat is off (trading, whisper, squad, region, etc) (The only way to contact my teammate as i know is via steam chat, if already a friend)

I want to give a feedback to Warframe support but redirected here... so here i am


The Feedback:

The Problem exist is:
'Bad word' typing

The Solution:
1. Instant remove the chat (implemented)

2.Soft ban 1:
Disable ability to type, but can still read and/or whisper
(duration (X day),increasing for repetition)

3.After the soft ban x3,If the Problem persist from the same user (within 3 month/ 6 month/ 1 year)
Hard ban:
Current ban

If u want something harder then go on, at least start softer

I assume DE did not want to tolerate any of this inappropriate behavior, but sometimes it just happen out of the knowledge of the user (for the player is the entire world, and not all players know the slang-ish bad word, so it might affect their playing experience.

Additional Notes:
1.Please tell how long the ban will be
2.Take those people baiting for someone to trigger the ban

Hope this help maintain the player experience, and also reducing the unnecessary tickets to support

It seems more and more "want to be the baddest baby in the kindergarten" users are getting banned and then come crying here about it.

And claiming ignorance on bad words, bs! Just watch your mouth, be nice and stop thinking you get respect by being the one with the bad language.

[Zi-Sui]

Some few certain people seem to have a big problem with not using certain words, especially in certain content. As if your cultural heritage was violated and you're here to defend it when it is the opposite.

That being said, I recall DE doesn't advocate these conversations, so, in before lock.

And to contribute something constructive, yes it would be appropriate to be let known how long your suspension will last, whether it is chat or account suspension. I support that. It doesn't seem like much to ask.

Still, until DE changes that, if they ever do, you can always google "warframe chat ban duration" for how long you are banned, or use clan discord to ask if you don't know how google works. So it's not like you have to make a forum topic about it. DE is known for letting players find out about the stuff themselves, so wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

Edited September 5, 2018 by BoarWarrior

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

14 hours ago, notlamprey said:

A lot of the kickbot troubles could probably be obviated with a more robust and well-surfaced chat filter. Individual users already have the capability to filter chat channels by keyword. If this system were a bit more fleshed out and players were encouraged to become skilled at using it, that could very well ease pressure off the kickbot and the moderators. As it is, they're probably being asked to do too much and the end result is a policy that divides the community more than is necessary.

 

11 hours ago, Sean said:

A system that takes the current chat filters and greatly expands upon them would ultimately work best for all parties.

Every time someone brings up a chat filter as the answer to all our problems, I find myself disagreeing.  Chat filters that are user defined put the onus on the wrong party.  You are, in effect, telling the people who are on the receiving end of slurs to do something about it instead of tackling the problem at the root.  Here are some bullet points to illustrate some issues:

• Player A doesn't want to see a particular racial slur so they put it on their filter.  Player B comes along and changes a letter to a number.  Player A now has to shrug it off and update their filter to now get rid of that offending message.  Meanwhile, Player B is free to keep spewing garbage.
• If my filter simply filters out words I don't like, then how do I know which people I'd like to avoid?  Yes, I said it.  If someone is spewing racial slurs in chat, I'd like to not associate with that person.  If their hateful words are filtered, then I may not see them spewing their racial slurs and might still associate with them.
• Depending on how the filter is implemented, it may not make a difference.  If it's like the profanity filter, then what's the point?  I'll still know that it was a racial slur.  The end effect is still the same.
• This system seeks to protect the people who spew slurs in chat.

So, no, filters are not the answer.

12 hours ago, Voltage said:

“My access to chat was suspended [for saying X].”
These threads are primarily due to the confusion of being banned with no word on the reasoning, length, and severity of a chat suspension. Going with the ideas proposed above, the changes made to the message will not only help moderators on the Forums, but also teach players.

Current Message: “Your access to in-game chat has been suspended.”
Proposed Message: [DE]Kickbot (in a PM): “Your access to in-game chat has been suspended for <insert duration of ban> for saying: (message break) <quotation of what you said>. (message break) This is unacceptable behavior and violates the [Chat Guidelines] (provides a link to the guidelines). Please visit Support for assistance if the suspension lasts longer than the suspension duration given. Do not bring this issue to the Warframe Forums.

Would it though?  How often do we see a topic here in the forums where someone complains about being suspended from chat and they really don't know what they said?  I can think of one where the person had a typo and ended up putting a racial slur in chat by accident.  They didn't know they had committed a typo until [DE]Glen went through the chat logs.  That's one thread out of however many.  The rest, the people know what they did, but they refuse to take responsibility for their actions and simply wish to rant.  And, providing a link to the guidelines isn't going to help that either.  I'm not opposed to giving the suspension length or providing more information - I'm just saying that it likely won't have a noticeable effect on the amount of threads started here in the forums.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

26 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Would it though?  How often do we see a topic here in the forums where someone complains about being suspended from chat and they really don't know what they said? 

They'll also complain that the guidelines are vague, that what they said isn't really a slur, or was just them making a joke. 

 

These are the vocal minority who just can't figure out that they can be held responsible for their own actions. They'll blame DE, the things on the list, other people who were also making jokes, other people who said things that should be banned and aren't, society, their parents, and God. They only people that they don't actually blame is themselves. 

 

I'm good with not hearing from those people. Ever. 

 

The only thing I think should absolutely change is that the ban should allow them to see everyone else chatting in region and not getting banned. That way they'll not be able to participate, and instead will begin to learn what is acceptable instead of only what was unacceptable. And tying the bans to the device that they're using to access the game. 

[CxLL]

As most of the threads that focus on reworking the chat moderation system, this one too is based on community misconceptions rather than how things actually are.
Would greatly appreciate if you checked facts prior to raising pitchforks over sob stories which were written in desperate attempt to receive five more minutes of fame.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

banning for minor mistakes like typing into the wrong chat

This does not happen.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

from now on posts your message in the proper chat and sends out a warning that these kind of messages should be posted in X chat window.

First part requires programming which cannot be done. Second part already happens.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Instead of banning the bot now simply deletes your messages if it deemes it as spam.

This is already the case. And you get an automated note for spamming. If you proceed, you get a kick with an automated kick note regarding spamming.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

 When someone tries to use an insult or slur whats currently prohibited

There are no "currently" prohibited slurs. There are slurs. The definition of which is available in any dictionary dealing with the English language. Your preferred internet browser will help in search of such a resource. The Terms of Service and Guidelines that you agree with upon installing this game are the one and only warning you will receive. Giving written warnings because someone didn't care to read is a futile waste of time, especially considering there are millions of players out there and every single one is a special unique rose petal demanding all stars in the galaxy to appreciate their existence.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

The bans only affect the main chats and never the pm system

This kind of suspension exists explicitly as to avoid the player to bother people in private, as they were usually restricted due to harrassment, mobbing, eula violations and such, as well as persistent disruptive behaviour in which the player is prone to skipping from channel to channel, from region to region, from server to server to manifest the same pattern of offenses.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Users can also see whats going on the other chats but cannot write in them.

Your mom takes away the cookie jar because you ate too much cookies but keeps giving you cookies?

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

The warnings in all case have the following information

Bot and moderators already give automated messages. All of this already exists.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

A copy of the text what has banned you

Provide a doctor's note of having dementia and Support will gladly check the log to see what you've written.
On another note, the last message player has written prior to the ban will remain in the chat as the last thing they have written. An effective method of reflection.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Information on how long is the ban is

Now why would you need that? To go ahead and play something else until it's done so that you can come back and proceed where you left off with a side dish of raving how unfair the moderation system is? Because let me tell you, that's what happens in 9/10 cases. Yes, knowledge based on thousands of examples. I've been here for a while.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

 The bot should have no downtime to avoid the mess what can be seen at early and late hours.

The bot has no downtime. Mess happens when there's a case of no human moderators being present. 

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

The bot no longer has the ability to kick from the chat

In which case the purpose of KickBot ceases to exist, and I assure you, it has been integrated for a reason. That reason existing even when the chat user list was, and I'm not even joking here, a 100 times smaller.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

A new report function is added named chat report. This report send a copy of the message X user posted to the bot who attaches any info on the users current warnings to it and forwards it to any active moderator to check if it tried to avoid a bot ban.

Chat moderators, just as all other players, have no business looking into such things. The Support is paid for this and will provide the sufficient information when a valid case is presented. Note: just as in offline communities, screaming at the authorities that someone has wronged you will not result in more than being locked up for being hysterical. Evidence that go beyond statement, details on the circumstances, elaboration, and someone will listen to you.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Additionally the chat suspension should be alwaly negotiable

Can you guess how many times someone "negotiated" their right to use slurs?
Let me tell you one thing - it happens multiple times daily. Both in chat, on the forums, and hey, a generous few found me on Discord too. You need to understand, it's their birthright to offend people because they themselves do not find this particular word thrown at this particular player offensive.
The Terms of Service have no "negotiate" button. You either accept or you do not accept. Being here, I'm guessing you've went with the first option. Perhaps it's time to reread what you signed up for.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

When you get the warning and you dont agree with it you can forward it to another random moderator for overruling.

ALL moderators follow the exact same set of rules. Contrary to this very popular belief that's been going on among the aforementioned rose petal part of the community, we are NOT allowed to take matters into our own hands. We are NOT allowed to decide the suspension type and duration ourselves and we are NOT allowed to suspend people because we feel like it. Logs exist. And we know that they can prove whether we followed the rules or not. If you get banned for a certain something, it is because this certain something has been listed as bannable. Arguing with another moderator on whether the first one did something good or bad will just get them to check up on where on the list is your offense resulting in a good old waste of time. Now put that in a context of thousands of people that get flushed by the bot on a daily basis.

 

To end this nonsensically long reply to a matter that was already discussed way too many times in identical manners, with players requesting identical things, (as a quick search in the Forums' keyword search bar could've proven), if you wouldn't say something at a dinner table with your parents seated, do not say it in chat. Your parents are not making up these systems of social etiquette because they are really itched by certain words and conduct. They are trying to prepare you for the real word where instead of getting a frown across the table, you suffer actual consequences.
The Warframe chat or any form of social platform owned by Digital Extremes is not a public square. These places are not your refuge from the cruel restrictions of the real world despite your parents not being there to monitor you. They are privately-owned property with legal documents binding you to behave as the owners see fit if you desire to proceed using their services. Without agreeing to the terms these documents provide, you have no access to the services themselves, so if you get restricted from either of them, there really is no reason to suggest a community conduct reform.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

 

24 minutes ago, cxll said:

 

You know what? I was going to respond to your jarring tone and all the stuff you said that was.... blatantly wrong, (see how good I'm being by saying it like that instead of calling it what I really want to?) but then I realised that it would have been a very long post I don't particularly want to get a warning for correcting you in the same tone you used. Fallen_Echo probably has more patience than I do. 

 

5 hours ago, Mr.Mist said:

I assume DE did not want to tolerate any of this inappropriate behavior, but sometimes it just happen out of the knowledge of the user (for the player is the entire world, and not all players know the slang-ish bad word, so it might affect their playing experience.

I sympathise, but at the same time I am sure you learned at least one word to avoid using. 

4 hours ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

And claiming ignorance on bad words, bs! 

4 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Calling absolute BS on this.

It would be if they spoke English as a first language, and grew up with a knowledge of outdated North American racist terms. Just looking at his writing style it's plain that this isn't the case. 

I don't expect you to know that 'fish' and 'termite' are sometimes considered derogatory slang for homosexuals in the Caribbean because it's probably something that you never encountered. If they never encountered the words as derogatory they will be caught unawares. It would be a slow and painful process for them. 

 

 

[Michaelcf1]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

 

You know what? I was going to respond to your jarring tone and all the stuff you said that was.... blatantly wrong, (see how good I'm being by saying it like that instead of calling it what I really want to?) but then I realised that it would have been a very long post I don't particularly want to get a warning for correcting you in the same tone you used. Fallen_Echo probably has more patience than I do. 

 

I'd say a "jarring tone" is justified due to this thread being the umpteenth one made on an issue that cannot and should not be solved in the manner they are presenting. It gets tiring.

However, the main thing to highlight from your response is that - when you bother to call someone out in a public fashion it's best to be damn sure you're correct to avoid making a fool of yourself, which you have just done. 
CxLL has been a moderator for quite a few years now being at the forefront of most if not all issues concerning the program, they are damn sure what they've said is correct and so they have such confidence in calling out a post like this, whereas I doubt you do.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

36 minutes ago, Michaelcf1 said:

I'd say a "jarring tone" is justified due to this thread being the umpteenth one made on an issue that cannot and should not be solved in the manner they are presenting. It gets tiring.

However, the main thing to highlight from your response is that - when you bother to call someone out in a public fashion it's best to be damn sure you're correct to avoid making a fool of yourself, which you have just done. 
CxLL has been a moderator for quite a few years now being at the forefront of most if not all issues concerning the program, they are damn sure what they've said is correct and so they have such confidence in calling out a post like this, whereas I doubt you do.

Excellent points, except you didn't check to see what he was responding to. Fallen_Echo has actually presented a well thought out, well reasoned approach. Many of the responses to the specific points were myopic at best. 

 

Like saying that it's not possible at all to program the bot to redirect the comments that it's a already identifies as being in the wrong channel. Or the silly assertion that there aren't "currently prohibited slurs", because there are obviously slurs that aren't currently recognised by the bot so there must be a list of currently prohibited slurs. And if you are able to figure out that slurs are idiomatic with new ones coming into and old ones falling out of use all the time, and the fact that the game has a global base you'll begin to grasp why that might be. 

It's nice to know that they have a couple years of moderation experience, would it interest you to know that I've had decades in chats, forums and ran a kickbot similar in function to the one in use in the game? That I'm familiar with different aspects of  moderation in various communities?  Yes, no, maybe? Maybe we can count it as a no because I haven't seen the code for our in game relay chat or how the bot is programmed or maybe it's just been so long since I had to scratch out and modify code?

But here's a thought, sometimes when you work on a project for a while, and have a vision of how you want it to work, sometimes you develop blinders and start rejecting alternatives because they are just different and don't fit with your model. Muting offenders wouldn't remove the need for a kickbot at all, half of the suggestions in the system Fallen_Echo made are already in place so he's not saying that they should be changed, just being comprehensive in explaining the system. Berating him for that isn't a good idea. 

And here's the thing about muting the troublemakers, punishment is a good way to learn, but being able to observe people who aren't getting into trouble is also a good way to learn. It's not about who ate too many cookies, it's about who was urinating in the cookie jar, and can no longer do so while seeing everyone else interact with it, without getting it taken away from them. 

 

In any case in all of the places I have had experience with, starting a response with "Would greatly appreciate if you checked facts prior to raising pitchforks over sob stories which were written in desperate attempt to receive five more minutes of fame." (emphasis added but did I really need to?) and then maintaining tone from there, would generally be considered a good way to set up an "us vs them" scenario. Maybe that's what they wanted to do, maybe they're just jaded, maybe they just like the way it flows, I don't know and don't really want to. What I do know is that if I had responded at the time, I would have done so in kind and that would probably mean violating the community guidelines in a conversation that was previously relatively civil. 

So no, I'm not the one who has made a fool of myself by trying to stay civil. Maybe next time you should check out what the comments involve instead of the names of the people who are making them when trying to figure out if a comment is good or bad. Heck my last interaction with Fallen_Echo has us disagreeing hammer and tongs, but this time he has valid reasons for a lot of his suggestions so I'm not going to hold that, or the million and one posts by people who want to be able to break the rules against him. That's what impartial moderation is about. 👍

[notlamprey]

3 hours ago, cxll said:

As most of the threads that focus on reworking the chat moderation system, this one too is based on community misconceptions rather than how things actually are.
Would greatly appreciate if you checked facts prior to raising pitchforks over sob stories which were written in desperate attempt to receive five more minutes of fame.

Perhaps it doesn't help matters that one or more moderators have been publicly caught out lying (or at least spreading misinformation) on multiple occasions. If we're going to be in the business of checking facts, let's be understanding of why the community might have a general attitude of suspicion and therefore misconstrue the capabilities and functions of the system.

3 hours ago, cxll said:

There are no "currently" prohibited slurs. There are slurs. The definition of which is available in any dictionary dealing with the English language. Your preferred internet browser will help in search of such a resource. The Terms of Service and Guidelines that you agree with upon installing this game are the one and only warning you will receive. Giving written warnings because someone didn't care to read is a futile waste of time, especially considering there are millions of players out there and every single one is a special unique rose petal demanding all stars in the galaxy to appreciate their existence.

This is the point at which I'm definitely thinking that the borderline antagonistic tone isn't helping things.

I'd also be interested to know which resources DE uses in determining what constitutes a "slur" for the purposes of moderation. I very much doubt that an English dictionary is the only resource they use.

The ToS represents an unreasonable amount of time and effort for the average person to invest in reading and understanding. The Community Guidelines are, in my opinion, insufficiently specific and don't properly delineate a comprehensive range of items that can trigger moderation. Acknowledging the difficulty of that, some attention should be given to the question of how wide a range DE can reasonably expect to police beyond that which is made explicit to the user.

3 hours ago, cxll said:

Provide a doctor's note of having dementia and Support will gladly check the log to see what you've written.

This sort of joke runs the risk of coming across as ableist and insensitive by making light of the horrible reality that people face when dealing with dementia. Watching my uncle progressively lose himself has not been fun, and if you're going to defend the standards asked of players by DE then you should be consistent in adhering to that standard.

3 hours ago, cxll said:

Now why would you need that? To go ahead and play something else until it's done so that you can come back and proceed where you left off with a side dish of raving how unfair the moderation system is? Because let me tell you, that's what happens in 9/10 cases. Yes, knowledge based on thousands of examples. I've been here for a while.

Again, you need to understand that the players have seen enough cases of misinformation/confusion/dishonesty on the part of moderators that we'll be hesitant to simply take your word for something. No disrespect intended, but taking the past into account has to be a two-way street.

This post is quickly expanding beyond being easy to read, but there's almost no point you've made on which we would agree. The "dinner table" comment that seems to imply DE's rules for this very specific context should apply in all contexts, the argument that users don't need access to the list of bannable offenses because it would be a waste of time...

The whole thing is completely cuckoo-bananas.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

25 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

the argument that users don't need access to the list of bannable offenses because it would be a waste of time...

The whole thing is completely cuckoo-bananas.

To be fair, I wouldn't share my kick-list with the general public either. I used to have a general list for the other mods and admin to see and work with (not the general visitors), and then there was my full list. 

 

It meant that we could add, tweak and remove stuff when needed without having to constantly notify everybody of everything on the list. Keeping the 'rules' vague meant that we had leeway to act as needed or be lenient if we felt that the situation required. 

 

It also meant that there were quite a few times when I was able to say something along the lines of "ALL moderators follow the exact same set of rules." while knowing full well that each of us would follow the same rules in slightly different ways. It even allowed us to back up other moderator actions that we wouldn't have taken and didn't fully agree with, by saying 'that's the letter of the law, they were in their rights to act on what you wrote'. 

 

While that can lead to abuse of the system, it's also a very important tool for moderation when leeway to act is sometimes a good thing. 

[Fallen_Echo]

What the void?

This thread is alive? I thought it died in July.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

This does not happen.

Clarification: I mean kicks, which actually happens. Thought im sure i read somewhere here that you in fact could get banned if you fail too many times to react to the channel auto switches in relays, thought the ban is max 1 day.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

First part requires programming which cannot be done. Second part already happens.

Im gonna call that lazyness, i seriously doubt that it cannot be done. It only needs the bot to cut the message from the wrong chat and then paste it to the proper one. The second part means an actual PM to the player to use the proper chat.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

This is already the case. And you get an automated note for spamming. If you proceed, you get a kick with an automated kick note regarding spamming.

Not everything in the OP is new, this is a compilation of what rules should the botmod follow.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

There are no "currently" prohibited slurs. There are slurs. The definition of which is available in any dictionary dealing with the English language. Your preferred internet browser will help in search of such a resource. The Terms of Service and Guidelines that you agree with upon installing this game are the one and only warning you will receive. Giving written warnings because someone didn't care to read is a futile waste of time, especially considering there are millions of players out there and every single one is a special unique rose petal demanding all stars in the galaxy to appreciate their existence.

There are words that are currently a slur but as time goes on it has a pretty good chance on becoming an acceptable word. You may say its a waste of time but i work in a factory where the machines explicitly state on each turn on to not press anything before the system loads in.

Terms and conditions are fine and dandy but as it was already pointed out last year, i can break that just by mentioning fallout 4 or saying banana.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

This kind of suspension exists explicitly as to avoid the player to bother people in private, as they were usually restricted due to harrassment, mobbing, eula violations and such, as well as persistent disruptive behaviour in which the player is prone to skipping from channel to channel, from region to region, from server to server to manifest the same pattern of offenses.

I added this point because we have an ignore option and also in the suggestion i suggested an ingame report system what directly sends anything you find "too much" to an active moderator who can check on the user and ban them.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

Your mom takes away the cookie jar because you ate too much cookies but keeps giving you cookies?

More like your mom takes away the cookie yar from you but you can still see the cookies and the jar.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

Bot and moderators already give automated messages. All of this already exists.

Yes you get a message stating:

"Your access to the chat system has been suspended"

As i wrote it, its pretty bare bones and i made suggestions to how to vastly improve it.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

Provide a doctor's note of having dementia and Support will gladly check the log to see what you've written.
On another note, the last message player has written prior to the ban will remain in the chat as the last thing they have written. An effective method of reflection.

It would actually show this each time you log in to reflect on what you done wrong. Also this is in a pm, in the form i suggested to make sure everybody clearly understands what they did wrong.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

Now why would you need that? To go ahead and play something else until it's done so that you can come back and proceed where you left off with a side dish of raving how unfair the moderation system is? Because let me tell you, that's what happens in 9/10 cases. Yes, knowledge based on thousands of examples. I've been here for a while.

Look you are currently either banned for a day or a week. This is here to make sure the system wont bug up and locks you out of the chat after the punishment is over.

I know most people just leave the game for that time but honestly dont tell me you are not tired of the everyday post on the forums asking for how long a ban is. This is basic information, something what almost every online game uses.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

The bot has no downtime. Mess happens when there's a case of no human moderators being present.

It does have (or had) times where you can freely use the worst of your insults and slurs without anybody reacting. Its somewhere around the late night and early morning hours based on DE's hours. I witnessed it with my own two eyes.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

In which case the purpose of KickBot ceases to exist, and I assure you, it has been integrated for a reason. That reason existing even when the chat user list was, and I'm not even joking here, a 100 times smaller.

If we implement these rules there is no need for the kickbot to exist. It would continously erase everything breaking the rules and send out warnings and bans for those who cross the lines.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

Chat moderators, just as all other players, have no business looking into such things. The Support is paid for this and will provide the sufficient information when a valid case is presented. Note: just as in offline communities, screaming at the authorities that someone has wronged you will not result in more than being locked up for being hysterical. Evidence that go beyond statement, details on the circumstances, elaboration, and someone will listen to you.

WUT?

The support clearly states in an automated message that they dont do anything with chat bans and such. It is the main purpose of having moderators to check if everything works as intented. IF i press the report on this post that it has obscenities for example in it, a mod comes here and checks if its true.

This report function is there to make sure that the currently unmoderated areas stay clear because anybody can go and report you if you wanted to spew slurs into someones private chat.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

Can you guess how many times someone "negotiated" their right to use slurs?
Let me tell you one thing - it happens multiple times daily. Both in chat, on the forums, and hey, a generous few found me on Discord too. You need to understand, it's their birthright to offend people because they themselves do not find this particular word thrown at this particular player offensive.
The Terms of Service have no "negotiate" button. You either accept or you do not accept. Being here, I'm guessing you've went with the first option. Perhaps it's time to reread what you signed up for.

And what would be the problem there? Did you forget that in the proposed suggestions i added the right to the moderators to give out bans as long as half a year? If someone wants to go and argue with a mod that its their right to call someone "insert common saying on alt-right forums about middle easter folk" then let them do and risk an even longer ban.

The terms of service may not have a negotiate button but its attackable throught the laws, for example the statement what says DE can monitor your account and collect data is something what with enough money and a good layer can be attacked easily especially since its know that this game has a system what scans your computer on what runs currently on it. Even the account termination can be attacked legally.

On 2018-09-05 at 12:28 PM, cxll said:

To end this nonsensically long reply to a matter that was already discussed way too many times in identical manners, with players requesting identical things, (as a quick search in the Forums' keyword search bar could've proven), if you wouldn't say something at a dinner table with your parents seated, do not say it in chat. Your parents are not making up these systems of social etiquette because they are really itched by certain words and conduct. They are trying to prepare you for the real word where instead of getting a frown across the table, you suffer actual consequences.
The Warframe chat or any form of social platform owned by Digital Extremes is not a public square. These places are not your refuge from the cruel restrictions of the real world despite your parents not being there to monitor you. They are privately-owned property with legal documents binding you to behave as the owners see fit if you desire to proceed using their services. Without agreeing to the terms these documents provide, you have no access to the services themselves, so if you get restricted from either of them, there really is no reason to suggest a community conduct reform.

If you would actually read the OP you would have seen that this suggestion is not here to make it easier for people to go and call people the n-word. This system is here to fix a faulty system what provides lots of problems.

It wont become easier to use slurs, hell if this goes throught the system becomes even more strict and the punishments are more serious.

You start with a 2 day ban what will increase to 20 days at the end and you even risk getting chat banned for 182 days in the end.