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Warframe Chat Moderation: Assessment and Renovation


Fallen_Echo
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1 hour ago, WRESinn said:

So associate some real definition to the situation.  A transgendered person is someone who doesn't feel at home with their own sexuality and chooses to associate as the opposite sex in order to feel more comfortable.  The term in question here, however, refers to an individual who cross dresses with the intention of trying to draw people of the same gender into a sexual encounter.

Secondly, and more unfortunately, we don't get to decide what other people can and can not be offended by.  If any level of social groups take any word at all and choose collectively to be offended by it then they're offended.  there's nothing we can do about that.  The reason for the ban mostly comes from game developers, as any Online Multiplayer Gaming Company would, attempting to limit the number of people that might get offended.

Finally, to elaborate further on that last sentence, if DE turns a blind eye and allows people to have a platform for individuals attempting TO offend someone then they could be held legal responsible for the consequences of this potential harassment.  All a lawyer has to argue is that "if DE monitored their chats and prevented this kind of activity then so and so may still be alive" and they could find themselves in a very difficult position.  I'm not saying this did happen, but it could, and that "could" is reason enough to take protective measures even if said measures are week long bans.

Please keep away from discussing what should be and should not be a banable word.

This post is directed on how should bans, warnings and the bots work not on what should they react to.

6 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

I'm re-posting this because it didn't really get any attention the first time, but I think it is extremely important. I have in writing, from two different DE employees, that chat mods are supposed to give a sufficient explanation when they give out bans. Chat mods who don't do this are going against DE's instructions. This was from last year, and if this policy has changed, I would like to know why, and I would like to hear it from DE.

If this policy hasn't been changed, then it seems to me like this is the end of the debate. "Moderators...need to send messages to users who are suspended in chat," coming straight from DE, is hard to misinterpret. I can take screenshots of the actual message I have if anyone doesn't believe me.

Now thats an interesting find, would you mind posting a screenshot?

It also raises another question, if moderators are requied to do this why the chatbot doesnt have any kind of automated message for its actions?

" 2018.09.08 05:31 User X, you have been banned for using slurs. You have said: "Hey there [insert known slur], hows it going? " . The ban duration is 1 week. "

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9 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

When you do it and are gently told that it is what you did, you say that context is important. When others do it and are punished (acceptably in my opinion) and then claim context (which is usually ridiculous in my opinion) you say that context doesn't matter.

I never said context doesn't matter.  This is not the first time you've been dishonest about what I've said and done in order to score internet debate points.  Frankly, I do not appreciate it and I don't find it to be very "civil".  I will not continue to humor your dishonesty.

So, on that topic, let me throw some bombs your way, since turn-about is fair play.  When you dismiss someone's arguments and accounts due to "tone", you're effectively saying that only those who are Vulcan in nature are allowed to debate these things.  This, effectively, shuts out anyone who is affected by the slur in question, which is another form of bigotry.  It's one that you have engaged in on this thread.  Again, not very "civil".

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7 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I never said context doesn't matter.  This is not the first time you've been dishonest about what I've said and done in order to score internet debate points.  Frankly, I do not appreciate it and I don't find it to be very "civil".  I will not continue to humor your dishonesty.

A system that gives a stern warning, an actual warning instead of the chat just going quiet, before handing out a ban would help to reduce the sheer number of people who get tricked into a ban on a daily basis. It would also help with the non-native English speakers and anyone who is unfamiliar with some of the more niche terms that seem to be present. Thats a good thing to want. 

A system that allows for incremental punishment, might work better than the current one, it should certainly cut down on the number of people who claim that it was a minor offence, because first offenses would get shorter term bans, and repeat offenders would get nuked into oblivion, as they absolutely should be. 

To say that the system would allow people to harass others via private chat, the current system could be abused in the same way if they haven't said something bannable in the open channels. It's obviously part of what the report system is there for. Pretending that it cannot be used exactly as intended, or that it is there to put the onus on the offended is a bit disingenuous. 

Muting the offenders works on a pretty standard function of many punishment systems, where you allow the person to observe what acceptable behaviour is. It isn't a case of 'not really punishing them' because it's probably a bigger punishment to stand there able to see others having fun and unable to join in. 

Explaining in a clear way, exactly what you did wrong, and the punishment removes any element of guess work. It's apparently supposed to be done under the current system, according to DE and the chat moderator who chimed in saying that it's already done. I haven't been chat banned as far as I know so I can't comment, but I have seen too many threads by people whining about chat bans to not ask that it always be included in any system they use. 

Care to focus on any of those instead of who said them? 

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Dear everyone...

Remember, we are here just as a part of user giving feedback to make DE better.
You don't have to be bashing everybody around....

This thread started as for the feedback of the Chat suspension assessment for the better user experience for all.
NOT the word that triggers, and NOT even why some word trigger some people.

And for some 'holy people who never did typing misbehavior', please, just let us point this problem as 'your bad baby in the kindergarten bois' to the DE, okay?
And as for the other who keep this discussion healthy... keep going on...

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On 2018-09-04 at 7:48 PM, NovusNova said:

Interesting feedback and while it remains just about chat moderation, we are willing to allow this to continue.

However this thread is not for a discussion about what words should or shouldn't be kick-able/ ban-able, that is up to DE to decide on, not the players or moderators. They give suggestions, just like everyone else but it is DE that ultimately decides whether to add or remove words/phrases.

Nor should this thread be used to name and shame any moderators or players.

If such behavior starts, then the thread will be re-evaluated and might be locked along with warnings handed out to users.

Thread cleaned, please refer to the above post for what is acceptable and what is not in this thread.

In future please report posts or the thread if you feel it needs cleaning or locking rather than just pinging me in the thread.

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1 hour ago, Mr.Mist said:

Dear everyone...

Remember, we are here just as a part of user giving feedback to make DE better.
You don't have to be bashing everybody around....

This thread started as for the feedback of the Chat suspension assessment for the better user experience for all.
NOT the word that triggers, and NOT even why some word trigger some people.

And for some 'holy people who never did typing misbehavior', please, just let us point this problem as 'your bad baby in the kindergarten bois' to the DE, okay?
And as for the other who keep this discussion healthy... keep going on...

Well said👍

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I think pretty much all of us can agree that more human moderation and an ingame report system what connects directly to a moderator would be wonderful to have.

Warning periods where messages are either placed to their correct place or simply deleted before outright bannings are also needed.

Giving out basic data on what did the user wrong and how long is the punishment from mods and bots equally would be a nice feature to have.

 

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1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

...an ingame report system what connects directly to a moderator would be wonderful to have.

You still haven't worked out how that would work.  Do you think the user base will be OK with moderators having access to their PMs at any time?  How would it even work, especially on console?  There's still the issue that you want the bot to not be able to stop all PMs, so therefore we'll get more instances where people who would normally be banned will be able to harass others, and the onus will be on the people being harassed to do something about it.  These issues have not been addressed.

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Warning periods where messages are either placed to their correct place or simply deleted before outright bannings are also needed.

Great for people who want to test the bot's limits to figure out what slurs will make it thru.

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Giving out basic data on what did the user wrong and how long is the punishment from mods and bots equally would be a nice feature to have.

How will a mod do that if the person in question has just been banned from all chats?  Does the mod have to open a chat window, then tell the person they are about to be banned and then actually do the ban?  Meanwhile the offending message is still up, or will the moderator now have to do more to erase the offending message, talk to the person, then do something else to ban them?

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2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I think pretty much all of us can agree that more human moderation and an ingame report system what connects directly to a moderator would be wonderful to have.

Warning periods where messages are either placed to their correct place or simply deleted before outright bannings are also needed.

Giving out basic data on what did the user wrong and how long is the punishment from mods and bots equally would be a nice feature to have.

 

I don't think it is realistic to expect more human moderation to occur within a game that has a playerbase as large as this. Nor do I think that it should be a priority. As for an in game reporting system, it already exists.

I do think that deleting an inappropriate message and then sending the person whose post had been deleted a message is feasible as it can be automated. A simple template could be:

"You said [insert what the offending party said] which is not appropriate and has no place in this channel or for the game as a whole. As a result, your access to all chats has been suspended for X days. Please think carefully before posting in the future."

This could leverage what the bot currently does. 

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3 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

You still haven't worked out how that would work.  Do you think the user base will be OK with moderators having access to their PMs at any time?  How would it even work, especially on console?  There's still the issue that you want the bot to not be able to stop all PMs, so therefore we'll get more instances where people who would normally be banned will be able to harass others, and the onus will be on the people being harassed to do something about it.  These issues have not been addressed.

Realistically he can't give details without a full understanding of the nuts and bolts current chat system and the specifics of the coding of the bot, and the current reporting system that we, and let me stress this because you've chosen to act as if it doesn't exist, already have. 

The system that you suggested, seems to be a good rough idea. And that came from someone who was probably trying to be sarcastic because they have said that it won't be possible despite multiple people saying that it sounds sensible. 

And yet again only those accounts that are actively banned will be unable to harass others via direct message. From what I've seen the majority of users with bans are those who were being stupid in region chat, I've only seen one interaction where I figured that they'd be likely to take it further, given the opportunity and that was two morons trying to compare epeens. I shouldn't need to state the obvious, and will not spell out how I suspect that people who really want to harass others could easily do it all day long without ever triggering the bot. The game already has a system to report that sort of misbehavior because the bot cannot stop all sorts of things at all. 

Short of lawyer-client, doctor-patient and confessionals, anything you say and do that breaches the rules can be reported by the people you talk to. That's why we have a report button. What part of that confuses you? The intent is not to have the mods snoop, but for you to report people attacking you. Yes you can try and abuse the system, but that's why punishments that remove privileges exist. 

3 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Great for people who want to test the bot's limits to figure out what slurs will make it thru.

You missed the small limit on warnings before incremental punishment. It's in the very first post of this thread. So.... No that's not going to work. What it would do is to remove the problem where all people are expected to know which (obscure?) (regional?) slurs are currently prohibited. If you can act as though a word that Google can confirm is a serious slur, is or should not be made into an issue because of context and personal bias, then it shows how non-North American, non-native English speakers will be at a significant disadvantage with the current system. 

3 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

How will a mod do that if the person in question has just been banned from all chats?  Does the mod have to open a chat window, then tell the person they are about to be banned and then actually do the ban?  Meanwhile the offending message is still up, or will the moderator now have to do more to erase the offending message, talk to the person, then do something else to ban them?

Now here's an interesting question, because it is a point of contention between the chat mods and a portion of the people who make complaints. And because the mods seem to think that they give reasons, and DE apparently think that they're supposed to give reasons. So... You tell us, how it's supposed to happen in our current system? Because the point you made actually favours the suggested system where they can see but not send. 

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

I don't think it is realistic to expect more human moderation to occur within a game that has a playerbase as large as this. Nor do I think that it should be a priority. As for an in game reporting system, it already exists.

I strongly disagree about the human moderation. We need more humans because the bot is probably just comparing each message to a list of banned words and following a simple script if they're there. Make a substitution for a letter, and it's not going to find the word or phrase. The list will never be as comprehensive, as it needs to be to prevent all risk of circumvention. It will always result in false positives if it can't actually detect context. (Despite what I have seen claimed the bot is not likely actually going to be working based on context, but rather the people who created the list would have used a slightly more complex group of phrases because they realised that banning all use of the word "trap", in a game where commonly used items include the word "trap" wasn't a good idea. 

The intent is not to replace the automated system, or to expect the very limited number of mods to do everything, but to supplement their number for the cases that the bot can't handle. Our brains are amazing in their capacity to filter information, if we had a group of active players who are willing to throw an eye on the chat between missions and highlight things that may be an issue (which would be refined over time with the requisite feedback from the mods), then the actual mods may be able to focus on the actual troublemakers without having to be on 24/7.

 

A lot of his suggestions already exist, but taken as a whole he is trying to suggest a comprehensive system, not just stuff to add or remove. It's weird though because a lot of the resistance we've seen here mainly deals with the impossibility of making specific things work or the obvious flaws that would be created if they implement the things that  actually already exist. 😁

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

 Here we go.The first time I was toldThe second time I was told.

In particular, I would like to see Red Point's response to this because he has ignored my posts here thus far. 

That matches with what someone on this thread claims to be the status quo for the moderators. I haven't been banned to know whether it happens or not. I don't intend to try and test the system. 

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6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

That matches with what someone on this thread claims to be the status quo for the moderators. 

No, it's what DE employees have directly said.

 

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I haven't been banned to know whether it happens or not. I don't intend to try and test the system. 

Chat mods very, very rarely actually do it.

Edited by (XB1)Erudite God
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13 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

You still haven't worked out how that would work.  Do you think the user base will be OK with moderators having access to their PMs at any time?  How would it even work, especially on console?  There's still the issue that you want the bot to not be able to stop all PMs, so therefore we'll get more instances where people who would normally be banned will be able to harass others, and the onus will be on the people being harassed to do something about it.  These issues have not been addressed.

Im gonna ask you to stop right there. You have already asked this and received your answer here:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1005795-warframe-moderation-assessment-and-renovation/?do=findComment&comment=10130268

Heres a copy if you dont want to click on the link:

You chat with a person, hes rude as hell and uses words what no one should. You click on his name and press the "Chat report" button. This button automatically copies the comment you have choosed as unacceptable (the one where you clicked on his name) and sends the copy to an active moderator in the following format:

2018.09.06 15:32 Report: User x: "You disgusting (insert slur here) can go to hell!"

From this point its up to the moderator to decide whenever that comment broke any rules and what should be the punishment.

Simple copy-paste function, this is something what games like club penguin already had.

As for people being OK having mods access to their pms, DE logs everything you write and do ingame. Its even in their license that they are doing it.

 

As for the bolded out part you commented, you might havent noticed it but the pm system is not controlled by the bot or mods at all currently. I hope i dont have to tell you why the suggested system is better for cutting down harassment than the current one. Also we still have the ignore button so if someone acts like an animal you can just mute him.

13 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Great for people who want to test the bot's limits to figure out what slurs will make it thru.

Because that 1 try what gets you marked for 10 days will really gonna help someone test out the limits. Im pretty sure all people who wanna use the slur word for blacks will wait for days between their tries.

Also we still have the ingame report system so if someone gets throught with a word you can just report it to an active moderator what will ban him for getting around the bot filters.

13 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

How will a mod do that if the person in question has just been banned from all chats?  Does the mod have to open a chat window, then tell the person they are about to be banned and then actually do the ban?  Meanwhile the offending message is still up, or will the moderator now have to do more to erase the offending message, talk to the person, then do something else to ban them?

Did you actually read the OP or just trolling around here?

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Users can also see whats going on the other chats but cannot write in them.

As it says clearly they can see whats on the chat they just cant use it.

After you make your first mistake you get a warning what stays actiive for 10 days:

DEkickbot: You have been warned for using slurs, you said "You disgusting [insert racial slur here]!" this warning is active for 240 hours, this is your last warning.

If you make your second mistake you get the following message:

DEkickbot: You have been banned from the chat for saying: [insert message with slur]. You have been banned for 4 days and the warning period resetted to 240 hours.

 

The mods do the exact same as it was confirmed from the support that they already need to do it, if they dont they are breaking the rules.

 

After a report has done the offensive message you got stays there as currently if we talk about the pm, squad or clan chats. In every other place its automatically erased.

 

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9 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Im gonna ask you to stop right there. You have already asked this and received your answer here

Nope, not what I was asking for.  I'm asking for specifics on how that would work.  It's easy to say that someone presses a button and messages are automagically sent to a moderator, but how?  How does that process work?  How would it work on console?  It's not simple copy/paste.  How does someone ensure that a specific message gets copy/pasted over?  And, how does that convey context?  There are a lot of holes in this that you need to work through.

12 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

As for people being OK having mods access to their pms, DE logs everything you write and do ingame. Its even in their license that they are doing it.

You can't have this both ways.  The bot can't ban PMs because those are private areas, but mods can ban PMs because those aren't private areas?

12 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

As for the bolded out part you commented, you might havent noticed it but the pm system is not controlled by the bot or mods at all currently. I hope i dont have to tell you why the suggested system is better for cutting down harassment than the current one.

You do, because you have ignored the complaint.  The bot can't ban from PMs in your system, so that leaves a player able to harass others when they normally wouldn't have been able to under the current system and places the onus now on the person being harassed.  Sure, if the person hasn't been banned they could still harass others over PMs and people can already report that.  The point is that removing the bot's ability to handle these situations before they arise is putting more people in the line of fire, so to speak, and is demonstrably worse for cutting down harassment.

16 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Because that 1 try what gets you marked for 10 days will really gonna help someone test out the limits. Im pretty sure all people who wanna use the slur word for blacks will wait for days between their tries.

Getting a chance to test the limits and work with other people means they get a lot of tries.  Even if one goes afoul, they can still take a 2 day ban and report back over PMs to their friends.

17 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Did you actually read the OP or just trolling around here?

I'm asking a procedural question.  Unless you're contending that mods can't full chat ban people, in which case, what's the point?

18 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

As it says clearly they can see whats on the chat they just cant use it.

And, you want mods to name and shame users in chat?

21 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

After a report has done the offensive message you got stays there as currently if we talk about the pm, squad or clan chats. In every other place its automatically erased.

How does this work if it's a message that was flagged and then acted upon later?

In general, I'm asking for details.  You have to work out the kinks and figure out how these things could be done.  It's not enough to just say, "Do X, Y, and Z" if there's no workable plan.  Also, know that DE may not like your suggestions.  Lastly, please refrain from phrases like, "We all agree that this would make everything better" because not all of us agree.  Please don't speak for others.

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5 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

No, it's what DE employees have directly said.

 

Chat mods very, very rarely actually do it.

Yeah I accept both of those points, I mean that it matches what was said previously, where it was claimed that all mods and bots send automatic messages with information on the bans. 

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1005795-warframe-moderation-assessment-and-renovation/?do=findComment&comment=10127446

Of course a lot of what was said there doesn't make much sense to me. Like the reticence to telling users the duration of their bans. A lot of people come here demanding to know how long they have to wait. 

Claiming that the bot doesn't trigger for minor mistakes is all well and good, but I've seen trolls trying to get newbs to say the country name 'Nigeria' and I wouldn't be surprised if 'Niger', which is another country that lies just above Nigeria on most maps also would trigger a ban because in order to stop people from making a racist slur, the list would have been made to include misspelled forms. I accept and agree that the vast majority of cases are not misspelled at all, but I remember a time when due to my own lack of skill with the controller/on screen keyboard system I have had to delete a word I had written because it was too close for comfort for me. 

Saying that something is impossible because it would take programming doesn't make sense either unless they meant that it is impossible to do right now, or is beyond their individual skill set. Maybe they think it's impossible to do because they myopically forget that DE is a company that has repeatedly created and programmed something that hadn't yet existed. 

 

Like seriously, a lot of the resistance seems to be defensive knee jerk reaction to a change. It's not a clear headed explanation of what will stop something like this from working and why. 

 

I feel confident in saying that a lot of the chat bans are newer players being tricked into saying a banned word, that directed bigotry and harassment of specific people or groups. At the very least parts of the proposed system will help to reduce that. 

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1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I'm asking for specifics on how that would work.

You're asking him to basically design code that will fit into a program that he is not privy to. You tell us exactly how the current report system already works and we'll all be better able to answer your demand. Maybe even working with the method you already proposed. 

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

You can't have this both ways.  The bot can't ban PMs because those are private areas, but mods can ban PMs because those aren't private areas?

Of course he can, because the report button is available to me on console in private chats. The bot isn't. The harassment you think cannot happen probably already does. Otherwise why have a report button and mods in the first place? 

You can't have it both ways, either the human mods are supposed to be useful, or they're unnecessary. I guarantee that they are necessary. 

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Getting a chance to test the limits and work with other people means they get a lot of tries.  Even if one goes afoul, they can still take a 2 day ban and report back over PMs to their friends.

As opposed to just writing 'free plat to the first person to write x backwards' and letting the newbs collect the bans? That is a bogus claim on your part, and 10 minutes in region chat usually proves it. 

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I'm asking a procedural question.  Unless you're contending that mods can't full chat ban people, in which case, what's the point?

His initial post clearly answered the question. It's why he's justified in asking whether you read the OP or are just trolling. 

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

And, you want mods to name and shame users in chat?

Where did you pull that out of? Suffice to say that is false. 

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

How does this work if it's a message that was flagged and then acted upon later?

In general, I'm asking for details.  You have to work out the kinks and figure out how these things could be done.

If only there was already a way for DE to send a line of text to only the recipient in a channel every time they were to open a chat channel for the first time in a session. Wait.... That already exists? Something about what channels to use for specific things and how to see the list of available chat commands? Well then, perhaps you should ask to take a look at the code that allows that to happen. 

 

He's currently proposing ideas for a change to the system. He cannot be expected to give full detail of how they will choose to implement it, because we don't know the technical limitations of the chat. Most of what he has proposed isn't impossible to do in a lot of IRC's, which is basically what the chat is, just with a single/disconnected node/server. Some of it is going to have to be modified based on practicality, maybe they modify the MOTD, maybe the bot sends a pm reminder whenever they join the chat channels (just because we don't see join/part messages doesn't mean that they're not there). The developers are the ones who will have to respond to requests for details of how it can be done because we don't have access to the information needed to answer those questions. So you should really direct them to the devs and not the end user. But you already knew that, didn't you?

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2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Nope, not what I was asking for.  I'm asking for specifics on how that would work.  It's easy to say that someone presses a button and messages are automagically sent to a moderator, but how?  How does that process work?  How would it work on console?  It's not simple copy/paste.  How does someone ensure that a specific message gets copy/pasted over?  And, how does that convey context?  There are a lot of holes in this that you need to work through.

In detail you mean?

Pressing the report button copies the message down into the bots message system. There the bot attaches dates, the reported users name as a link and the message what got reported and sends it forward to an active moderator.

Technically this is no more difficult than setting up an automatic excel table combined with a simple sender script, also it CAN be simple copy paste since all its needed is a date format, and everything else can be copy paste.

 

[-----copy paste part for bot---][date format copied][copy-paste of what the reported said]

Kickbot report to moderator 2018 09.08 12:01: User X: [slur] go to hell.

 

Just before i go forward, do you expect me to go into full technical detail on how can we set up such thing because if thats the case im gonna callup the girls in our office to ask how does their system work.

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

You can't have this both ways.  The bot can't ban PMs because those are private areas, but mods can ban PMs because those aren't private areas?

The bot yes cannot ban in private areas, thats there because you and your friends ingame might be perfectly okay with using slurs and whatnot BUT that doesnt mean everybody is okay with it. The mods only gain access to 1 single message when someone reports you.

In fact even currently you can make report to the support on something someone in the pm said to you, you just need to provide a screenshot and a name and the support does what it can, if he used slurs or broke other rules the support will issue a ban throught a mod. The situation is not really that different, its just faster.

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

You do, because you have ignored the complaint.  The bot can't ban from PMs in your system, so that leaves a player able to harass others when they normally wouldn't have been able to under the current system and places the onus now on the person being harassed.  Sure, if the person hasn't been banned they could still harass others over PMs and people can already report that.  The point is that removing the bot's ability to handle these situations before they arise is putting more people in the line of fire, so to speak, and is demonstrably worse for cutting down harassment.

Ohh wait i got it, your problem is that the banned people can still go on and harass people throught pms if they want to.

I guess this is worthy of an edit.

4.) The bans only affect the main chats and never the squadchat and the clan chat. Those are private areas. The pm system usage is limited to friends only.

This should limit down the possibility of harassment greatly and with the addition of the report system this would be the last line before getting banned.

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Getting a chance to test the limits and work with other people means they get a lot of tries.  Even if one goes afoul, they can still take a 2 day ban and report back over PMs to their friends.

What you forget here is the report function because since it diretcly connects to mods if they find anything what breaks the rules but havent triggered the bot they can ban for exploitaion of the system.

Also do not take this as an offense but this sounds like some conspiracy theory, do you really think people would devote that much time to go around and test what you can and cannot say? And if yes do you think that the same people ahvent do it already with the current system?

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I'm asking a procedural question.  Unless you're contending that mods can't full chat ban people, in which case, what's the point?

Sorry for that, i misunderstood you. The mods have gained the capacity to issue full scale chat bans, absolutely no usage of all chats, they can see whats there but cannot interact with it at all.

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

And, you want mods to name and shame users in chat?

Are you asking this because of the marked user function or what because i cant see a point what lets mods name and shame.

 

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

How does this work if it's a message that was flagged and then acted upon later?

In general, I'm asking for details.  You have to work out the kinks and figure out how these things could be done.  It's not enough to just say, "Do X, Y, and Z" if there's no workable plan.  Also, know that DE may not like your suggestions.

First of all as far as i know the chat is already has these functions. Erasing after posting, sending private message whats only visible to you and soo on.

I cant go into greater details without having access to the system with more than the regular user access, but does this really needed to be here? 

As for DE i stated upper that everything is up to them, im nothing but another user in the game the decisions are their resort.

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Lastly, please refrain from phrases like, "We all agree that this would make everything better" because not all of us agree.  Please don't speak for others.

Look at the comment below this one. That claims that I think, that the most of us are capatble of agreeing on these. This is not speaking for others.

19 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I think pretty much all of us can agree

 

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23 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Ohh wait i got it, your problem is that the banned people can still go on and harass people throught pms if they want to.

I guess this is worthy of an edit.

4.) The bans only affect the main chats and never the squadchat and the clan chat. Those are private areas. The pm system usage is limited to friends only.

This should limit down the possibility of harassment greatly and with the addition of the report system this would be the last line before getting banned.

Except that such harassment can already occur in the current system. That's why we have a report button which already presumably does something similar to what you suggested above, or at least sends usernames and timestamps requiring a mod to go look it up manually from the logs. 

 

27 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Are you asking this because of the marked user function or what because i cant see a point what lets mods name and shame.

You never made one. That's just something that they came up with on their own. 

 

29 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Also do not take this as an offense but this sounds like some conspiracy theory, do you really think people would devote that much time to go around and test what you can and cannot say? And if yes do you think that the same people ahvent do it already with the current system?

Pretty much. Just like the claims that the proposed system will allow banned users to attack people over private message, when it's pretty blatant that most people getting bans seem to be people silly enough to follow random instructions in the chat for the lulz. As we all know, it's possible to just sit in chat and watch the newbs get banned to compile a list of the currently banned words if you are patient enough. 

35 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

First of all as far as i know the chat is already has these functions. Erasing after posting, sending private message whats only visible to you and soo on.

I cant go into greater details without having access to the system with more than the regular user access, but does this really needed to be here? 

That's why I strongly believe that a system using the general ideas you proposed is is a possible way to improve the chat. It's not just a demand for change but a general road map that can help them to create and implement new policies. Demands that you provide all the details to make it work, are just a way to either get you to say that you can't produce it for obvious reasons, or to have something where some small part can't work and demand that the whole idea be thrown out. 

 

What you proposed has serious merit. I hope that someone will be able to use it to improve the game for all of us. 

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1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Pressing the report button copies the message down into the bots message system. There the bot attaches dates, the reported users name as a link and the message what got reported and sends it forward to an active moderator.

Technically this is no more difficult than setting up an automatic excel table combined with a simple sender script, also it CAN be simple copy paste since all its needed is a date format, and everything else can be copy paste.

 

[-----copy paste part for bot---][date format copied][copy-paste of what the reported said]

Kickbot report to moderator 2018 09.08 12:01: User X: [slur] go to hell.

 

Just before i go forward, do you expect me to go into full technical detail on how can we set up such thing because if thats the case im gonna callup the girls in our office to ask how does their system work.

No, that's the detail I wanted.  If this is replacing the current system where people hit the report button to send a report to support and it goes to mods instead, then I can see it having merit to add this in.  Not sure what happens when a mod isn't on though?  One problem though might be people reporting just to be punitive toward others or overload the mods that are online.  How would you deal with cases like that?

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

The bot yes cannot ban in private areas, thats there because you and your friends ingame might be perfectly okay with using slurs and whatnot BUT that doesnt mean everybody is okay with it. The mods only gain access to 1 single message when someone reports you.

In fact even currently you can make report to the support on something someone in the pm said to you, you just need to provide a screenshot and a name and the support does what it can, if he used slurs or broke other rules the support will issue a ban throught a mod. The situation is not really that different, its just faster.

Agreed it is faster if it goes to a mod instead of support, but would users be OK with mods having access to private chats?  If someone divulges something personal to someone they think is a friend and that friend hits "report", now that sensitive information is in the hands of whatever mod is online.  That might not be something everyone is comfortable with.  True, someone could spread that information anyway, and DE can always look at our messages, so maybe it's not as big a deal as I think it might be, but I have to ask all the same.

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Ohh wait i got it, your problem is that the banned people can still go on and harass people throught pms if they want to.

I guess this is worthy of an edit.

4.) The bans only affect the main chats and never the squadchat and the clan chat. Those are private areas. The pm system usage is limited to friends only.

This should limit down the possibility of harassment greatly and with the addition of the report system this would be the last line before getting banned.

Yeah, I still can't sign on to that.  If people can get removed from region and then go brag to their friends in their clan, that's not much of a punishment.  And, yes, it does happen.  I've seen it.  And, yes, adding that it's friends only does help from the previous, but it still doesn't do as much as the current system.

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Also do not take this as an offense but this sounds like some conspiracy theory, do you really think people would devote that much time to go around and test what you can and cannot say? And if yes do you think that the same people ahvent do it already with the current system?

 

Yes, people do this.  It's harder in the current system.

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Are you asking this because of the marked user function or what because i cant see a point what lets mods name and shame.

I was asking how a moderator would proceed with the actual act of removing people from chat while also sending them messages explaining what happened.  If they are removed from chat, then how does the mod contact them?  If they can see chat, then the mod could post publicly, but that would be naming and shaming.  See what I'm getting at now?

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Look at the comment below this one. That claims that I think, that the most of us are capatble of agreeing on these. This is not speaking for others.

I disagreed with that statement, which is why I said something.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

No, that's the detail I wanted.  If this is replacing the current system where people hit the report button to send a report to support and it goes to mods instead, then I can see it having merit to add this in.  Not sure what happens when a mod isn't on though?  One problem though might be people reporting just to be punitive toward others or overload the mods that are online.  How would you deal with cases like that?

That's literally almost exactly what you suggested way back when you were trying to claim that what you suggested wouldn't work. And the 'one problem' was raised in the past and addressed as well. 

The current system is equally open to that type of abuse. There is absolutely no reason to think that there isn't a way to deal with it and existing guidelines for punishment of those who try. 

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Agreed it is faster if it goes to a mod instead of support, but would users be OK with mods having access to private chats?  If someone divulges something personal to someone they think is a friend and that friend hits "report", now that sensitive information is in the hands of whatever mod is online.  That might not be something everyone is comfortable with.  True, someone could spread that information anyway, and DE can always look at our messages, so maybe it's not as big a deal as I think it might be, but I have to ask all the same.

Red herring. It's already been explained that DE has every right to access the logs, and claiming that the report tool would be used to broadcast someone confessing that they have a crush on Tommy/Sally in violation of the sacred pinky promise to not tell, is very weak. That's also an abuse of the system and would warrant having the privilege taken away. 

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Yeah, I still can't sign on to that.  If people can get removed from region and then go brag to their friends in their clan, that's not much of a punishment.  And, yes, it does happen.  I've seen it.  And, yes, adding that it's friends only does help from the previous, but it still doesn't do as much as the current system.

First I'm going to go ahead and assume that you didn't condone that behaviour, and that the clan leader took appropriate action, or failing that that you did. Secondly I am wondering how they did it since they should have been unable to use in-game clan chat under the current system, should it? 

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Yes, people do this.  It's harder in the current system.

Again that's blatantly false. They don't need to, when they can use the newbs to test it out seemingly without consequences to their own accounts. 

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I was asking how a moderator would proceed with the actual act of removing people from chat while also sending them messages explaining what happened.  If they are removed from chat, then how does the mod contact them?  If they can see chat, then the mod could post publicly, but that would be naming and shaming.  See what I'm getting at now?

Again, it's already supposed to be a part of the current system. Are you saying that it's not? And you're the one who has repeatedly recognised that the proposed system will not stop private messages. It's interesting that you actually came up with a scenario to name and shame, instead of thinking about the private messages or motd style messages that aren't echoed in the open every time someone enters the chat. 

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I disagreed with that statement, which is why I said something.

No you suggested that he said something totally different, in order to tell him not to speak on your behalf. Just like you suggested that he promoted a system to name and shame, or broadcast all private messages to the mods. 

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1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Not sure what happens when a mod isn't on though?  One problem though might be people reporting just to be punitive toward others or overload the mods that are online.  How would you deal with cases like that?

Well in all honesty i seriously dont have any kind of fix for that apart from getting more mods.

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Agreed it is faster if it goes to a mod instead of support, but would users be OK with mods having access to private chats?  If someone divulges something personal to someone they think is a friend and that friend hits "report", now that sensitive information is in the hands of whatever mod is online.  That might not be something everyone is comfortable with.  True, someone could spread that information anyway, and DE can always look at our messages, so maybe it's not as big a deal as I think it might be, but I have to ask all the same.

I might sound paranoid here but this can already happen, isnt it? You talk about something personal with a "friend" and they simply screenshot it and send it around the intenet.

Even in the supports case many people can read throught that data and we get absolutely no guarantee that it stays private.

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Yes, people do this.  It's harder in the current system.

Now that i read throught my comment again i realized that some people are just crazy and someone probably doesnt have anything better to do.

Is it harder or not in the suggestions way, i dont know.

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I was asking how a moderator would proceed with the actual act of removing people from chat while also sending them messages explaining what happened.  If they are removed from chat, then how does the mod contact them?  If they can see chat, then the mod could post publicly, but that would be naming and shaming.  See what I'm getting at now?

From what i gathered DE ask each moderator to send out a message explaining the ban reasons and durations already but this does not happen always. I think either using the system messages chat (the same one the redtext uses and ignores all bans) would be good for it or using the inbox in the communications too could work.

Either way the message must be private.

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I disagreed with that statement, which is why I said something.

Ahh, okay then.

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20 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Is it harder or not in the suggestions way, i dont know.

Taken as a whole, it would be harder in your suggested system. 

Currently little is done to rein in the trolls who encourage the newbs to be kicked. There is currently no down-time for them when compiling a list and no coordinated effort requiring more than a single miscreant is required. A part of your suggestion involves the human mods getting directed to the actual trouble makers and stricter moderator-given penalties for those who are infringing. This will free them to act as needed in the long run. 

 

Adding more humans to the list would help, perhaps as I suggested a large number who are generally active and have no recent issues with augmented semi-anonymous reporting powers for stuff that needs to be highlighted, and acted on by a mod. The ideas of it would be:

1) More eyes, so mods don't need to sit in chat all day. 

2) stuff the bots cannot recognise gets spotted. 

3) the system keeps track of who made the reports while the mods can't see who made them, cutting down on favouritism allowing for fair moderating. 

4) feedback can be reverted to the reporter to say if the highlights are useful will help to keep the reports useful. 

5) anyone trying to abuse the system will rapidly accumulate negative reverts and have the privilege revoked. 

6) the actual mods will get to keep their status quo without the immediate disruption to the internal dynamics caused by the rapid influx of people into their ranks. 

7) large numbers of reporters can be added in a relatively short space of time if needed. 

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The moderators are there to keep people from getting into personal and divisive matters.
Issues like religion, sexuality and gender, and politics, are always divisive, and get personal more often than not.

In creating a game experience where players don't have to deal with that, we must accept some boundaries.
It's what makes our community a place that is inclusive and respectful for anyone of any background.
..unless your background is entirely in based smarmy jokes, competitive divisive language, and edginess.

This is not intended to be the freest form of expression.
This is meant to be a video game experience, that is aside and outside of personal and emotionally charged matters.
All players can benefit from this.
Not all players benefit from treating region chat like 4chan.
You can meme on Hundreds of Thousands of other places on the internet.
This place isn't that forum. This place is a video game experience.

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24 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

The moderators are there to keep people from getting into personal and divisive matters.
Issues like religion, sexuality and gender, and politics, are always divisive, and get personal more often than not.

In creating a game experience where players don't have to deal with that, we must accept some boundaries.
It's what makes our community a place that is inclusive and respectful for anyone of any background.
..unless your background is entirely in based smarmy jokes, competitive divisive language, and edginess.

This is not intended to be the freest form of expression.
This is meant to be a video game experience, that is aside and outside of personal and emotionally charged matters.
All players can benefit from this.
Not all players benefit from treating region chat like 4chan.
You can meme on Hundreds of Thousands of other places on the internet.
This place isn't that forum. This place is a video game experience.

The problem is that more often than not you are auto banned by a bot and not a moderator.

The suggestions goal is not to make the games base chat more free but to force it to work in an acceptable manner. Moderators by DE's own word are supposed to give you an explanation on why you got banned and how long it is, thought many people dont ever see this because they trip on the auto bans. I want this changed.

You might say that the region chat has no place for politics, sexuality, gender and religion but i have played in games where you can freely talk about these without problems and once someone who only wants to spread hate appeared on the chat people just reported the message and set the dude on mute. Is the situation here better or not, im not gonna be the judge of that.

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