Elite Onslaught is Pointless Boredom Because of Saryn

[Enedora]

The problem with Saryn is the problem with all of DE's reworks.

They didn't ask people who played the frame what the frame was good for, was lacking, what worked, what didn't.

They didn't consider any of the unique qualities of the frame, and how it changed the way players could approach the game.

I haven't played since the rework, because I would rather spend my time playing something that won't turn my favorite strategies to muck and ruin any enjoyment I had in playing the game because some guy who wants to redesign the frame thinks he knows better than I do about what the frame needs and what the frame doesn't need. I hate to break it to the design team, but you don't make effective design changes when you don't actually consider what the frame is useful for, what the frame is too good for, what the frame is lacking.

-

So, to be constructive, and to give them something to ponder, I'm going to go over these things and explain to them, as clearly and as in detailed terms as possible, why this rework was a complete disaster, and why their best possible avenue for learning from this mistake is asking people who have put in the hours (or in my case, years) figuring out what aspects of the frame make them happy before figuring out how to remove aspects that DE felt were unhealthy.

 

1. What was 3.0 Saryn good for?

- Low and mid level content.

- Mass AOE debuffs.

- Spore camping (in endless and mobile D)

- Spore Sniping

 

2. What unique qualities of the frame created new ways to approach the game?

- Spore's toxin spread effect did this for a host of different things, all were net positives for any objective onlooker

**made rarely (or not) used weapons viable on Saryn, any weapon had the possibility of being a Saryn option if it had Toxin, Gas, or Fire damage innately on it. Even weapons lacking this quality but having a high Status chance could be a very good option in many cases. The obvious weapons that fit this narrative are the Pox, the Mutalist Cernos, the Daikyu, Ignis/wraith (pre beam buff) and plenty of others. Any and every weapon that popped up in the patch notes with toxin or 40% status on it was an immediate draw to all Saryn players, which was a net good.

**created completely different build options for tons of other weapons, focusing status + gas mods to provide reliable damage with Saryn at the expense of more damaging run-of-the-mill builds.

**allowed Saryn to inject direct synergy into her allies with Venom Dose, meaning they could spread spores and benefit from the spore's toxin spread effect without having to build specifically for it, making her meld well with almost any composition.

 

3. How did they muck all of these things (and make the aspects they wanted to tone down even worse)?

1. No spore spreading toxin damage. This removed any incentive for players to use the Mutalist Cernos and weapons like it. Whole playstyles (spore sniping, venom dose spores) and the innovation and weapon/mod testing that came from this mechanic were removed wholesale.

2. Infinitely damaging spores. I can't express how dumb this is. Saryn's first ability is a guaranteed kill on everything on the map assuming you are willing to go through the motions to spread it, and it's not like spreading them is a difficult task. it's literally what you do for the large majority of the game when you aren't just *slidebulletjumpdoublejumprollslide*'ing past everything. This made spore camping worse, and it is literally the only aspect of Saryn that was overused, and the only aspect of Saryn that the general playerbase hated.

Honest question. Why does it seem reasonable to DE that her first ability, costing 25 energy, has enough damage potential innately to kill a thousand level-thousand enemies?

This change slowed Saryn's Time to kill in low and mid-level content in a meaningful way, but the problem could have been solved in a less intrusive, more meaningful way.

They could have addressed these negative aspect of the frame simply by making the spores have a miniscule (or nonexistant) amount of damage but replacing that with making the viral proc guaranteed and have the duration of the viral debuff last for as long as the spore would naturally last (plus the status duration bonus of Saryn, of course). This would make it necessary to utilize the other pieces of the kit (toxin spread) or weapons to achieve the same effect, and it would largely eliminate Molt-Spore camping.

Molt-Spore was removed directly, and this was pretty much the only change they made that I agree with.

 

4. How they should have addressed these aspects (without making a massacre of the frame)

A. Spores should have had zero, or minimal, spread / tick damage, and the important aspects of the skill should have been (from the beginning) a guaranteed Viral proc with a wide effective radius (being an effective boon to a team) while being a receptor for toxin damage to spread, providing synergy with the kit.

B. Molt should have had it's self-sporing option removed, preventing Saryn from spore camping in safety from behind cover (which was done).

C. Miasma

- shouldn't pop spores in it's area (or should do a damage type that spreads along spores)

- should either have guaranteed corrosive procs on ticks, or shouldn't do corrosive damage at all (thus allowing the spores to have direct synergy, at a high cost)

- shouldn't cc (Molt can't be better while hard CC is on the kit in another form, as I see it, and I don't think it's necessary or makes sense)

 

** NON FRAME CHANGES **

D. A lot of weapons that should have had great synergy with Saryn were completely useless due to the limitations of the weapons that are arbitrarily placed on said weapons and make them significantly worse for no actually good reason, both with and without Saryn. As follows:

Pox: Should do 40% of it's base damage in the gas cloud ticks as Gas damage (as opposed to single-digit ticks) and not apply other status effects in the cloud

Torid: Should do 50% of it's base damage in the gas cloud ticks as Gas damage (as opposed to single digit ticks) and not apply other status effects in the cloud

Mutalist Cernos: Should do 60% of it's base damage in the gas cloud ticks as Gas damage (as opposed to single digit ticks) and not apply other Status effects in the cloud

All of these weapons are used for status gimmicks like permanently knocking down with blast and stripping armor with corrosive and that makes them terrible damage options despite all the potential they have if not constrained by this gimmick. These weapons would instantly be much better, and much better with Saryn, if that potential was removed, and instead making the static AOE do damage. This is the unique aspect of these weapons, the lingering AOE effects. Instead of being meaningful, they're a gimmick, which is dumb.

I'm certain I'm missing one or two.

E. On a similar vein, Contagion cloud, because of the same complaint with the above, is largely useless. It's damage is more meaningful than the above, sure, but since you need to be in melee range to spawn the cloud, it never has a real reason to be used. If the cloud provided your enemies with an extremely high miss chance (say, 80% at max rank) it could be useful as a melee saryn since you could hide in your clouds to avoid taking damage at high ranks, and combining that with molt could make Saryn quite survivable.

Without such an aspect, the skill is useless while needing to be applied in melee. If Toxic Lash was applied to your ranged weapons as well, it would provide your weapons with a niche unique effect belonging to the aforementioned weapons and it'd be pretty reasonable in certain situations, though certainly not all. You'd have to nerf the numbers on it quite a bit to make it safe to add to range weapons with 3.0 Saryn, though such a change would be welcome even if it was unnecessary buffs at that point.

-

There. That's what you needed to do. I'd like to imagine that you'd be willing to turn a 180 on this and take my recommendations into testing immediately. While that would certainly be a dream come true, I'd be a bit apprehensive about rejoining and providing you with my business given that you may simply do this again with another unique and interesting design that I love and shred any hopes I have to believe you've learned from your mistake. Nothing can be done with the Spores, as they are. Gut them or I have zero interest whatsoever in playing again.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Enedora

[BloodArmoredApostle]

On 2018-08-16 at 4:40 PM, ActionPoohole said:

Hi guys,

So a bit of a vent thread here: Yet again I run into another Saryn on KUVA survival.

45 minutes into the game everything is still dying and the Saryn is doing almost nothing, seemingly semi-afk. So I guess my point is...

What kind of design of frame is this? I still do not understand why such an inherently broken concept has been placed into the game in the first place. Range that extends down halls and through doorways that kills everything even beyond level 110 etc (Including heavy and high level Eximus units)... In a game that really does not reward content beyond that point at all, why is this a thing?

I almost always refuse to play with Saryn due to the fact that they can press a button or 2 and afk while doing the most DPS leaving other players struggling to find something to do when the content is under level 100 (which almost everything is unless you're there for over an hour which too is basically pointless (Yet another issue with warframe) ).

She obliterates almost everything without other players getting a chance to partake in combat. Her role in the game is as toxic as her abilities. I personally see no reason for Warframes like this to exist apart from DPS show boating, arrogance or AFKing. She adds nothing to interactivity for other players in the group. Providing corrosive damage should probably (IMO) be a part of weapons, not Warframe abilities. If you corrode the targets with your source of DPS then you've already done most of what needs to be done due to the insane scaling of armor. Synergy with her does not exist until way past normal late game content. We're talking at least an hour or 2 into a long survival before her abilities start to slow down it seems... And again, that sort of content is mostly just for bragging rights with a few exceptions (Fissure rewards and whatever).

For the life of me, I cannot understand it. This is extremely poor gameplay design. Her DPS is over the top. It just makes me want to slump and use sit emote as there is almost nothing to do unless they let there be something to do.

"Run around and be a good Catalyst holder" ... Hmmm... Seems all the Saryn players that like playing as or with her always say she's fun or she's balanced, she most certainly is NOT balanced... And fun? As subjective as it is, if you find being AFK for most the game while everything dies as fun then I both envy and loathe what you feel there. Envy you for being able to enjoy something so pitifully boring and loathe that you could think that because that sort of opinion is what ruins what I believe could potentially be a genuinely high quality gaming experience.

There are other OP frames that actually involve interactivity and Synergy, and that is "ok" I guess, as long as it allows others to enjoy playing the game. Saryn does not. Sure, you may host a game and create an enjoyable experience with them if you set up correctly and are accepting of being the wheels on the vehicle till the point of 2-3 hours hours in a survival happens and you can finally be of use. But if you're not, and you want some sort of challenge without waiting for a broken frame to start dropping in dps hours later then Saryn does not partake in this concept.

This is a Co-op game; one that is designed for co-operation... And as far as I can see, co op is almost out the window with some frames... Out the window like rubbish of old England times in Saryn's case.

So then you get another frame and compare, say Khora? And her 4th ability? Causes enemies to endlessly swing around in a jungle gym slowly bleeding out because they snagged a bit of skin on a sharp bit, then you can crack them with your liquorice whip and bind them up in fence wire.

I won't ever get why the direction of nuke everything is applied to any frames. The scaling in this game is so horribly out of wack and the damage system is so topsy turvy that it's blatantly obvious to see where the flaws in the whole of Warframe content lays. Firstly, scaling ramps up too fast that you're just getting 1 shot within an hour or 2 (being 1 shot should never be a thing in any PvE game unless it's counterable). So you do what? Kill everything before it gets to you or remain invulnerable. So Saryn is the kill everything before it gets to you. Combine that with a bit of defence and you're basically unbeatable till you get bored. Oh, and healers can't heal what is dead... So that's why damage mitigation is required, and what better way apart from making yourself invulnerable with shielding abilities to do that? Kill everything before it can kill you. That's why Trinity buffs shields better than she heals, because shields help you to NOT take damage at all. And there's a point where that isn't going to help you much at all.

And that entirely ruins long survivals and stagnates the reason to not provide scaling rewards, because some frames are too good at it and other ones are pitifully useless at it. If you did provide scaling rewards then everyone would clearly see what is broken in the entirety of this game. DE know it and that's is why I believe they will not give scaling KUVA rewards. It's pitiful enough that the rolls cost so much as it is, but we don't get anything more for staying longer, better off just going 1 hour and repeating. That gets pretty boring, so we try ourselves for our OWN enjoyment and nothing more to try go longer.... And then Saryn happens and that just blows everything out of the water while you wait for 1-2 hours before anything even starts to get interesting.

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So rather than just complaining about it? Well it's time to make some suggestions then!

So where could DE start on the road to fixing this woefully unbalanced game?

1. Enemy Armor/Damage scaling needs to be more paced out.
2. Range of abilities in almost all cases needs to be lowered.
3. Enemies need to get into closer proximity before being able to 1 shot you. Enemies could also have dodge-able shots like the current wound up sniper shots. Or abilities that show their path before hitting said path. (Anything that can be countered with dodging or active abilities to mitigate when need be, but not a constant ON or OFF defence)
4. Defence missions need to be designed less poorly as to allow line of sight only abilities\weapons\etc to be useful for faster clearing as well as be constantly flowing rather than a wait between every wave which further pushes towards the need for non line of sight based AoE to clear them as they spawn each wave.
5. Enemies need to not be so cowardly, and really BADLY need to stop getting stuck. Please fix this.
6. Weapons\abilities need more damage fall off to not only cause enemies to need to be closer to you to kill you, but also need you to be closer to them to kill them.. This would make better use of flight speed mods.
7. Game needs to focus more on close combat and reward you for skilled play. (This doesn't mean that newbies don't have their place to enjoy the game too, they'll just find it more challenging to get scaling rewards. And if they aren't willing to put in the time or effort to get better at the game then I believe they shouldn't be rewarded the same as players that put in more effort. That's how every other game I have enjoyed has been, why does Warframe insist on rewarding both laziness and lack of skill? Everybody gets a Ribbon in Warframe and that's why it appeals to so many, but there is such minimal additional reward for going that extra mile that veterans get bored too fast and keep hoping for new content or probably just stop playing in larger blocks.)

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I could add on and on to the list but that is probably for some sort of MEGA thread.

Currently: Warframe is entirely an Easy Mode game with virtually ZERO content that could possibly be called a challenge. When a veteran player (To not only Warframe) such as myself goes looking for any sort of challenge it is all self created. EG:

"Lets do this with these frames and not these ones because those ones are broken and boring afk frames and see how long we can last"

or

"I'm going to see if I can get this random weapon that seems fun to be worth using by rolling Rivens."

So not only do many of us have to waste extreme amounts of time that give no reward apart from making their own enjoyment, the lazy players that don't care to push the limits of the game continue to make large amounts of platinum from doing easy and repeatable content.

The game doesn't challenge veteran players at all and rewards almost entirely the use of broken frames that can kill everything without even having to use guns.

There is a plethora of weaponry in the game yet a vast majority of content requires minimal use of weapons. Take Elite Sanctuary Online for example: It was seemingly months worth of Trinity just blowing up her own feet to win the game.

Now it's buffed Equinox or what not.

You bring other frames into the game and more often than not you'll be struggling to even find the enemies to kill them before the timer runs out, further increasing the need for excessive range on a Warframe with buffs to that Warframe to be more efficient.

This game is about efficiency, not challenge or fun.

For anyone that has over 500 hours in the game:

1. Why exactly would you play a capture mission for apart from loot?
2. Why would you do a defence mission apart from loot?
3. Why would you play defection apart from loot?
4. Why would you go to the Plains apart from loot?
5. Why would you do interception apart from loot?
6. Why would you do rescue apart from loot?
7. Why would you do a spy mission apart from loot?

To me: The answer is: I would not. They are boring as hell. The reason I play this game is because of tinkering with weapons and riven mods and seeing what I can do with them and seeing how long I can go in a survival with friends when we don't use excessively broken Warframes. But sometimes you have to use OP Warframes because the weak ones are boring. Where is the balance? 

The game is addictive because it is addictive to collect things and earn currency... It most certainly is not addictive because of the boring designs of most missions. There certainly is not any challenging content in the game and anything considered as "difficult" is because of bad gameplay mechanics and not actual difficulty. Being 1 shot by enemies that you cannot avoid is NOT difficulty. That is broken gameplay. It's like saying to someone "Hop in the Water wearing lead boots and try staying afloat without a float". Sure, of course it's difficult. Because you need a float. And this game is just full of floats and full of lead boots and all the things that are actually fun in the game are entirely not necessary to success.

I hope to see this game start taking a bit more of a step in the direction of providing actual challenging content and not throwing more and more monsters that entail holding crouch to not die to.

I hope to see them learn from RPG games that don't require you to nuke the entirety of the enemy from a mile away to overcome the overwhelming odds. Surely there needs to be some tactics added to the game that extend beyond the use of excessively powerful 4th abilities that trivialise mid level content and make high level content a breeze, because that sort of stuff is for newbies and afkers. If you want to watch youtube or twitch streams then it appears this game is fantastic for that.

But what about players who actually want to dig in and beat some content that is truly challenging? The last time I ran into that was the Ambulas sortie 3 when I was a noob myself. And now it's just a case of probably 1 or 2 shotting the Ambulas with a [hunter munitions] sniper rifle. Even then? You'll probably get an Ayatan treasure.

Well that's my rant over and done with.

Comments? Roll with it.

 

Mag does a better job against armor OP. Just a heads up 😕. Envy is not a good place to start for a objective argument. This comes from more of a feelings perspective which is fine, but provides less in overall overview of the situation. Saryn does not afk to win. You need to manage your 1 and 3 for maximum effectiveness, and is a bonus to your 4 as well. Not a end all to everything, if she does not manage her 1 at all she will lose to enemies. This post is more focused on what players should be able to do versus what warframes are capable of. I do not believe dictating how players should play is beneficial in the long run. Honestly, it is a awesome send to see a saryn in a game were I am dealing with alot of armor issues. Alot of times, I end up doing the most damage because of her awesome debuffs. So, love for Saryn as a Frost player is there. No problems, with her right now. If Saryn recieves another nerf, She will be as useless Ember is. This is another method of controlling which warframes are useful and not. Just my thoughts on it.

Edited September 15, 2018 by BloodArmoredApostle

[Cibyllae]

3 hours ago, Enedora said:

 

Here is something no one wants to believe, and something that you it on. Saryn was stronger in her 2.0 form with the toxin proc creation than in this 3.0 form we have now. Here's why.

From the Wiki:

Quote

 

If an infected enemy is being damaged by a Toxin proc, popping a spore on that enemy will also spread Toxin damage to surrounding enemies. The spore will have 25% (increased by ability strength) of the initial base damage that triggered the Toxin proc added to its burst damage as Viral damage with a 100% status chance for Viral and Toxin effects.

Toxin status effect deals 50% of the burst damage as Toxin damage per tick over 11 ticks in 10 seconds. Duration-based status effects are prolonged due to Saryn's passive.

If multiple Toxin procs are damaging an infected enemy, the initial base damage that triggered each individual Toxin proc will be combined when a spore's burst damage is calculated.

Spores are not suppose to transfer any type of toxin proc, spores CREATE their own UNIQUE toxin proc whose damage relies on the INITIAL BURST DAMAGE of that individual spore. The spore's burst damage can be INCREASED by inflicting more toxin procs upon an enemy and then popping said spore on said enemy. This will increase the toxin proc, which the spore creates, as the toxin proc, that the spore creates, is based upon the spore's burst damage. This is why when you pump an enemy full of toxin procs and then pop a spore on that enemy, all enemies in range only receive one toxin proc. This toxin proc is not the most recent, nor the largest, it is an entirely new toxin proc that the popped spore creates.

 

Quote

 

Toxin A, B, and C are applied to Enemy Alpha by Weapon Z, spore 1 is put on enemy Alpha

Spore 1 is popped on Enemy Alpha

Spore 1's burst damage is increased by 3xWeapon Z's base damage multiplied by 25%, this is not a 1.25, this is a multiplier of .25 (This .25 can be increased by ability power)

Spore 1 hits Enemy Omega

Spore 1 applies Toxin D on Enemy Omega which is 50% of the Spore 1's burst damage.

 

Spores do not care about the damage of the toxin proc, they care about the damage which triggered the toxin proc. Even more so, the intial BASE damage which triggered the toxin proc. Contrary to popular belief, spores do not transfer the largest toxin proc, and are not suppose to transfer multiple toxin procs, in fact spores are not suppose to transfer anything at all. Spores tally the toxin procs, and there may be multiple tallies if there is more than one source of toxin procs, they then use that tally as multiplier on 25%, which can be increased by ability strength, of the initial base damage which caused the toxin procs.

Quote

 

Toxin A, B, and C are applied to Enemy Alpha by Weapon Z

Toxin D, E, and F are applied to Enemy Alpha by Weapon Y

Spore 1 is popped on Enemy Alpha

Spore 1's burst damage is increased by (3xWeapon Z's base damage + 3xWeapon y's base damage) x .25 (This .25 can be increased by ability power)

Spore 1 hits Enemy Omega

Spore 1 applies Toxin G on Enemy Omega which is 50% of the Spore 1's burst damage.

 

 

 

 

 

---

This is how old Saryn used to function, and why there was so much diversity of weapons that were ascribed to her. Because figuring out whether low damage high fire rate weapons (hikuo prime) were more effective than low fire rate high damage weapons (Lanka) was not apparent. Obviously there were top meta picks for her, but what was above the line of "effective enough" took testing.  Her toxin interaction was so much fun, if you had 200% ability strength every toxin proc added 50% of your weapons base damage to the burst damage of the spore. Beyond the first pop, it is not clear whether or not the spore counts as the new "base damage" or if the base damage of your weapon carries over.

Quote

 

Toxin A, B, and C are applied to Enemy Alpha by Weapon Z, spore 1 is put on enemy Alpha, weapon Z has 100 base damage

Spore 1 is popped on Enemy Alpha

Spore 1's burst damage is increased by 3xWeapon Z's base damage multiplied by 25%, this is not a 1.25, this is a multiplier of .25 (This .25 can be increased by ability power)

3 x 100 x .25 = Spore 1's burst damage is increased by 75

Spore 1 hits Enemy Omega

Spore 1 deals 75+25 viral damage and applies Toxin D (which was created by Spore 1) which is 50% of Spore 1's burst damage, spore 2, spore 3, and spore 4 on Enemy Omega.

 

Spore 2 is popped on Enemy Omega

Q: Is Spore 2's burst damage increased by....

Quote

 

A: Spore 1's base damage of 25?

B: Spore 1's Total Burst Damage of 100?

C: Weapon Z's base Damage of 100?

 

Which one of these answers matters a lot. Here's why:

Quote

 

if Spore 2 is popped in Case A: 1 x 25 x .25 = 5 + 25 = 30

if Spore 2 is popped in Case B: 1 x 100 x .25 = 25 + 25 = 50

if Spore 2 is popped in Case 😄 1 x 100 x 25  = 25 + 25 = 50

 

you're not going to be able to see the issue at 100% ability strength so lets bump it up to 267% ability strength

---

at 267% AS 

Quote

 

Toxin A, B, and C are applied to Enemy Alpha by Weapon Z, spore 1 is put on enemy Alpha, weapon Z has 100 base damage

Spore 1 is popped on Enemy Alpha

Spore 1's burst damage is increased by 3xWeapon Z's base damage multiplied by 25% 67%, this is not a 1.67, this is a multiplier of .67 (This .67 can be increased by ability power)

3 x 100 x .67 = Spore 1's burst damage is increased by 201

Spore 1 hits Enemy Omega

Spore 1 deals 201+67 viral damage and applies Toxin D (which was created by Spore 1) which is 50% of Spore 1's burst damage, spore 2, spore 3, and spore 4 on Enemy Omega.

 

Spore 2 is popped on Enemy Omega and hits Enemy Grineer

Q: Is Spore 2's burst damage increased by....

Quote

 

A: Spore 1's base damage of 50?

B: Spore 1's Total Burst Damage of 268?

C: Weapon Z's base Damage of 100?

 

Which one of these answers matters a lot. Here's why:

Quote

 

if Spore 2 is popped in Case A: 1 x 25 x .67 = 16.75 + 67 = 84

if Spore 2 is popped in Case B: 1 x 243 x .67 = 162 + 67 = 229

if Spore 2 is popped in Case 😄 1 x 100 x .67  = 67 + 67 = 134

 

side by side comparison

Quote

 

if Spore 2 is popped in Case A: 1 x 25 x .25 = 5 + 25 = 30

if Spore 2 is popped in Case B: 1 x 100 x .25 = 25 + 25 = 50

if Spore 2 is popped in Case C; 1 x 100 x 25  = 25 + 25 = 50

if Spore 2 is popped in Case A: 1 x 25 x .67 = 16.75 + 67 = 84

if Spore 2 is popped in Case B: 1 x 243 x .67 = 162 + 67 = 229

if Spore 2 is popped in Case C; 1 x 100 x .67  = 67 + 67 = 134

 

if you can't see it yet, were going to keep the amount of toxin procs equal to when the first spore popped:

Quote

if Spore 2 is popped in Case A: 3 x 25 x .25 = 15 + 25 = 40

if Spore 2 is popped in Case B: 3 x 100 x .25 = 75 + 25 = 50 end result is smaller

if Spore 2 is popped in Case C; 3 x 100 x .25  = 75 + 25 = 50 end result is smaller

if Spore 2 is popped in Case A: 3 x 25 x .67 = 50.25+ 67 = 117.25

if Spore 2 is popped in Case B: 3 x 243 x .67 = 488.43 + 67 = 555.43 end result is bigger

if Spore 2 is popped in Case C; 3 x 100 x .67  = 201 + 67 = 268 end result is bigger

 

but surely only having 1 toxin proc from the start wouldn-

at 267% AS

Quote

Toxin A is applied to Enemy Alpha by Weapon Z, spore 1 is put on enemy Alpha, weapon Z has 100 base damage

Spore 1 is popped on Enemy Alpha

Spore 1's burst damage is increased by 1xWeapon Z's base damage multiplied by 50%, this is not a 1.5, this is a multiplier of .5 (This .5 can be increased by ability power)

1 x 100 x .67 = Spore 1's burst damage is increased by 67

Spore 1 hits Enemy Omega

Spore 1 deals 67+67 viral damage and applies Toxin D (which was created by Spore 1) which is 50% of Spore 1's burst damage, spore 2, spore 3, and spore 4 on Enemy Omega.

if Spore 2 is popped in Case A: 1 x 25 x .67 = 12.5 + 67 = 37.5

if Spore 2 is popped in Case B: 1 x 134 x .67 = 89.78 + 67 = 156.78 

if Spore 2 is popped in Case C; 1 x 100 x .67  = 50 + 67 = 75

Do you see why which condition matters now? The reason why the condition matters is because in Case B the end result becomes the new base damage for all subsequent spores that follow. If Case B were how her spores worked, then it would follow that:

Quote

 

1 x 134 x .67 = 89.78 + 67 = 156.78 

1 x 157 x .67 = 105.19 + 67 = 172.19

etc

etc

 

I'm going to let everyone in on a secret I'm sure DE Pablo was all too aware of. Saryn already had "infinite Scaling". You just had to pump in enough ability strength to make it work. The max base levels out to around 202 for 267% ability strength, there is a plateau, which means that the Max base Damage you weapon should have at 267% ability strength would be 202. More damage would just be wasted because if the base damage spores is predicated on goes over 202, the spores will start declining down toward 202. The rest should be put toward fire rate. That means there is a point which Spores converge to but never touch. That's if Case B is how spores function. Still even if it isn't case B and is Case C, 202 would still hold as a benchmark to reach for the damage of your weapons for 267% ability strength. If its case A then you know, there isn't much we can do about that.

The reason why the condition matters, is because in Case B, the damage of your weapon does not matter because the spores will naturally ramp up to a maximum damage and that is a problem. It is a problem because now damage isn't something you have to worry about in your weapons. And that means more mod space for things like status chance and fire rate or ammo or whatever it is you would like to mod. It frees the user from mods like serration or blaze or base damage increasers like them. Spores would only ramp up in damage given you had 267% ability strength or higher, and to boot That maximum was not capped it was based on your ability strength. For 267% the cap is ~202 because 202/67 is ~3. Meaning we need 3, 67's to get back to 202, our base damage. We want to get back to our base damage because if we get back to our base damage that means our damage never falls off. We get stuck in a loop where our base damage never falls below 202. 67%(2.67 x 25%) of ~202  is 135.34,(135.34) / 67 = 2.02. So we have 2 of our 67s, where do we find the last? The third 67, which is the base damage of the spores, would account for that last third. Giving back the original input. Meaning 202 goes in, is multiplied by 67% and 67 is added to it, and you get 202 out. Why is this a huge problem?

Because spores were designed to fall off as they propagated. Meaning the base damage of each subsequent spore was supposed to become smaller, ex spore 1 does 100, spore 2 does 89, spore 3 does 45, etc, etc. So what's the big deal? The big deal is you were able to bypass the design of an ability through modding. That's like glitching through walls in Super Mario 64. Was this less powerful than the Saryn we have now because at least her "ramp" damage was capped? No, because that 202 is multiplied by the number of toxin procs which were on the target you were shooting. Meaning the faster you shot and the higher status chance you had, you could turn that 202 in 2020 in less than a second. Meaning the cap was not only determined by ability strength, but what weapon you had and what mods you put on that weapon. How long does it take to ramp up to 2k damage for Saryn in her current iteration? Longer than a second I'd guess. You could argue that the ability was designed to not fall off, I'd simply say it's weird for an ability to function differently with different levels of ability strength. And not just a minor difference, were talking the difference between your graph of damage over time

A revelation while typing, Saryn, even in her 2.0 form, was always meant to ramp. At 267% ability strength this is easier to see. Ramp as in, when spores propagate they gradually increase in damage. Except the ramp camp was predicated on the 25%(The spore will have 25% (increased by ability strength) of the initial base damage that triggered the Toxin proc added to its burst damage), and if the cap for 67%, which is a lot of mod space, was 202, 25-50% must have had a cap that was small enough to be negligible because the base damage of our weapons would always be above it. Giving the illusion that spores were designed to fall off. Spores were not designed to fall off, they were designed to converge towards a point. Because our weapon damage was always greater than our caps, this convergence always had a negative slope, which gave the illusion that the spores were meant to deal less damage as they moved from enemy to enemy. I could imagine that Pablo felt as if his design for ramping was not shinning through and wanted to make it more apparent that she does ramp. Especially since people were using her as a high burst frame with spore sniping, and not a frame that gradually became stronger as time went on. That explains so much as to a sudden switch in playstyle. Ramping is what Pablo wanted 2.0 Saryn to be able to do, but felt as if he didn't quite hit the mark for the idea he had in his head. 3.0 is what he feels is a better manifestation of the playstyle he wanted her to have. Expect nerfs, because this is how Pablo wants her to play out, but people are unhappy with her numbers. Expect nerfs.

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[Guest]

It's people like you that get warframes nerfed - Ember is dead now because of feedback like this. Get better and kill more.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

4 hours ago, arii1986 said:

It's people like you that get warframes nerfed - Ember is dead now because of feedback like this. Get better and kill more.

I agree, sometime people don't like fun stuff. We can't have nice things sometimes.

[DatDarkOne]

4 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

I'm going to let everyone in on a secret I'm sure DE Pablo was all too aware of. Saryn already had "infinite Scaling"

 

4 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

A revelation while typing, Saryn, even in her 2.0 form, was always meant to ramp. At 267% ability strength this is easier to see. Ramp as in, when spores propagate they gradually increase in damage

I had known this awhile back.  I first figured it out when I was testing elemental proc effects in actual mission usage.  Then Healing Return and Condition Overload came out and just allowed Saryn to become a synergizing healing melee tank.  

That is the playstyle that I mentioned in an earlier post that hasn't changes with her recent changes/tweaks. 

[Enedora]

On 2018-09-15 at 3:50 PM, Cibyllae said:

 

Spores do not care about the damage of the toxin proc, they care about the damage which triggered the toxin proc. Even more so, the intial BASE damage which triggered the toxin proc. Contrary to popular belief, spores do not transfer the largest toxin proc, and are not suppose to transfer multiple toxin procs, in fact spores are not suppose to transfer anything at all. Spores tally the toxin procs, and there may be multiple tallies if there is more than one source of toxin procs, they then use that tally as multiplier on 25%, which can be increased by ability strength, of the initial base damage which caused the toxin procs.

Yeah, but that's precisely why I recommended those specific changes to the Mutalist Cernos, Pox, and Torid (and by extension, contagion cloud) in that you can be wasting spore triggers and chances to spread more toxin on pre-generated ticks of ~4 damage that these aoe clouds generate with all the status effects. It's making these weapons effectively useless outside of applying statuses, when it would seem apparent to the casual onlooker that these weapons were designed to be DOT oriented.

I think the toxin spread Saryn was indeed, more powerful in the majority of cases than ESOryn is currently, but I attribute that to the capability of Saryn to be able to spore camp with molt spore. Outside of that, she had to be at a distance or put herself in danger constantly to do anything of value, where effective distance is pretty rare in a typical starchart tileset.

Finally, while I understand the intention of the designer, Pablo is either egotistical or uninformed. I'm not taking shots, because I have no need to go to personal attacks to make my points, I'm knowledgeable enough on the subjects at hand that I'd be entirely willing to hold a fair and honest debate with anyone who'd be up to having one with me. I'm stating fact. Pablo can only be one of those two things to do as he has done with Saryn, in either assuming that his way is the best way (egotism) or asserting that the playstyles that he'd be doing away with are degenerate (misinformed). Anyone who actually played Saryn before the changes probably have a lot of reasons to thank Saryn for introducing them to new weapons and encouraging them to try out a big chunk of the unfavorable ones, and likely had a lot of fun doing so. Remember when the Ignis was actually pretty bad (way way back before the first buff) and Saryn inventors made it viable?

Saryn and her toxin spread was a reason to innovate, to create strategies, to theorycraft, to test. I need to make this clear. I am not taking shots at Pablo. I have no intention of turning my position into an attack. I am making a statement of fact. He was either ignorant of these aspects or so certain of his personal vision of how a frame should play that he made these changes in spite of them, and did away with what was undoubtedly a good number of people's favorite aspect of warframe, period.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Enedora

[Andaius]

10 hours ago, Enedora said:

Yeah, but that's precisely why I recommended those specific changes to the Mutalist Cernos, Pox, and Torid (and by extension, contagion cloud) in that you can be wasting spore triggers and chances to spread more toxin on pre-generated ticks of ~4 damage that these aoe clouds generate with all the status effects. It's making these weapons effectively useless outside of applying statuses, when it would seem apparent to the casual onlooker that these weapons were designed to be DOT oriented.

I think the toxin spread Saryn was indeed, more powerful in the majority of cases than ESOryn is currently, but I attribute that to the capability of Saryn to be able to spore camp with molt spore. Outside of that, she had to be at a distance or put herself in danger constantly to do anything of value, where effective distance is pretty rare in a typical starchart tileset.

Finally, while I understand the intention of the designer, Pablo is either egotistical or uninformed. I'm not taking shots, because I have no need to go to personal attacks to make my points, I'm knowledgeable enough on the subjects at hand that I'd be entirely willing to hold a fair and honest debate with anyone who'd be up to having one with me. I'm stating fact. Pablo can only be one of those two things to do as he has done with Saryn, in either assuming that his way is the best way (egotism) or asserting that the playstyles that he'd be doing away with are degenerate (misinformed). Anyone who actually played Saryn before the changes probably have a lot of reasons to thank Saryn for introducing them to new weapons and encouraging them to try out a big chunk of the unfavorable ones, and likely had a lot of fun doing so. Remember when the Ignis was actually pretty bad (way way back before the first buff) and Saryn inventors made it viable?

Saryn and her toxin spread was a reason to innovate, to create strategies, to theorycraft, to test. I need to make this clear. I am not taking shots at Pablo. I have no intention of turning my position into an attack. I am making a statement of fact. He was either ignorant of these aspects or so certain of his personal vision of how a frame should play that he made these changes in spite of them, and did away with what was undoubtedly a good number of people's favorite aspect of warframe, period.

Not really. Toxin spore had lots of confusing aspects that hampered it's practical applications. Not to mention it was very hard to get them to work right at all. Since the order of how the damage was applied worked against it. (If the enemy died due to weapons damage it passed on nothing to the spore damage equation and so forth. Thus making the Molt bomb spore the most reliable method of getting spores damage. Even then it was mostly just burst damage not toxin procs that did the enemies in.

The new Saryn streamlines and simplifies the confusing math of the previous version with a more easy to understand and reliable system. With a more reliable damage type too.  Toxin damage was fairly hard to get to reliably  damage stuff, with DR and immunities, and the finicky spore system of 2.0 saryn. In 2.0 you learned the special tricks that where pretty limited on the weapons you could use to execute those tricks.  Other wise the toxin proc spore wouldn't really work very good.

That was the main reason you see people posting up pics of saryn doing 1000's of toxin damage a tick and others just managing 10 a tick. The toxin spore equation was very finicky on how it functioned and you really needed to know the special trick with special sets of weapons to make it work well. Saryn 3.0 spores are now more about management skills and knowledge of how and when to apply more spores. It's also built in it's own regulation system. Since if your spores eventually do too much damage they will burn themselves out quickly, and you'll loose stacks.  Since gaining stacks relies on the enemy not dieing for as long as possible while under a DoT your limited on how fast you can get them. (Not to mention the caps on gains, you have to contend with team mates murdering them all in a blink of an eye thus getting you no infected and lose of stacks again.)

Edited September 19, 2018 by Andaius

[Xaero]

On 2018-09-16 at 7:26 AM, BloodArmoredApostle said:

I agree, sometime people don't like fun stuff. We can't have nice things sometimes.

Well, even boring routine is fun to some people. I wonder how many players would like to try out the game if its trailers were about a group of tenno standing in one spot spamming 1-2 abilities instead of fast-paced action.

 

[(PSN)Nozomi244]

Am I missing something here, because when I play Saryn my allies just kill the enemies faster than spore can spread very much. It takes me forever to stack the dmg on spores. If i'm doing something wrong plz tell me.

[schilds]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)Chimaera244 said:

Am I missing something here, because when I play Saryn my allies just kill the enemies faster than spore can spread very much. It takes me forever to stack the dmg on spores. If i'm doing something wrong plz tell me.

We have no clue what your build is, so how can we possibly answer that?

[BloodArmoredApostle]

It takes time to do damage. The growth even with 212% power is 4. Nidus still is damage king over saryn, scaling isn't bad. The fast pace your speaking of would be nice if we had more of a combo system that integrated well with the game mechanics. However, that would require nearly a overhaul of the entire system that is currently in place. I believe DE is going that direction eventually, but for now they are focusing on upcoming events. I truly believe it will become what your saying, but meanwhile gonna have to wait on that transition.

[LXSL8]

Saryn's effectiveness in ESO is especially surprising given that she's not in the character race selection options. Like, it's just three or four kinds of human, cat people, lizard people, and Sheogorath only knows how many kinds of elf.

wait, no, i wrong that read.

Anyway, Saryn's best case scenario is a constant stream of enemies that ensure her spores always have something to spread to so that their damage output can go from 'okay i guess' to 'punchy' to 'completely bat* *ing bonkers' and stay there for an extended period. Sanctuary is all pf that and a bag of chips.

 

Is that a problem? Well, maybe. I kind of look at Warframe as being about ninja-ing around and to me ninja-ing is about aligning your strengths to your enemy's weakness so that they go splat and you laugh maniacally. If frames having wildly differing areas of strength is part of the point here (and it kinda looks like that is the case), then balancing them toward any one task is just a bad plan. Maybe what we need is more frames that shine in Saryn's favoured environment, rather than for Saryn to no longer do so. Also it would probably be easier to do that than to restrain her abilities enough to make her less dominant in ESO without undermining her ability to function in other environments.

[Warmachine927]

Now i dont mind   Saryn doing top dmg and top kills  she is dps warframe that is what she supposed to do ,but now Saryn is at point where  we the rest of the group are just place holders , i can literally just go afk for 15 waves when i have Saryn in the group ,now i'm not saying nerf her to the ground where she will do no dmg but little nerf wont hurt her.Sry for the bad eng.

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

I use her and a guy I know uses equinox to farm for focus. We do regular onslaught to farm for affinity for new stuff or polarized. Including this upcoming Chroma Prime. If a game is that boring then find a squad or play solo. But players like me are gonna use warframes best suited for farming focus. I had an inaros, INAROS, join onslaught. The goal is to kill as much as possible and farm for Affinity. Yet we have players that don’t care. So they demand DE make farming harder and more annoying for everybody else because they are bored and/or too lazy to find their own squad or play solo? Makes ZERO sense. It’s like these players have no idea how to play warframe. You have to farm for resources, affinity, and focus in order to level up and advance. If I wanted to play for “fun” then I would have my own squad. This isn’t some campaign mode or bounties.

Maybe DE could create some weapon only onslaught for y’all but don’t go demanding DE change the game. Yes by changing EVERY killframe to make farming for stuff longer and harder, they would be changing the game. That is only gonna make players play less. Atlas is OP one on one but Saryn is a horde killer. Chroma is a buff type. All 3 involves killing but one is better than the others in different missions. Most people are gonna bring horde killing warframes to missions that require killing as quickly as possible. To farm for relics on hydron they have to kill quickly. To farm for focus and proceed forward on onslaught they have to kill quickly. Obviously Saryn is not useful against bosses like a chroma.

People need to start thinking like a team instead of a one man army or lazy AFKer. As a rhino I power up the Saryns so they kill easier while also shooting at survivors. I don’t just sit around doing nothing. That’s yalls problem. Y’all choose to do nothing. During defense people be using an invisible Loki. COMPLETELY USELESS. While I choose to use a DISARMING Loki to bring the enemies closer and prevent teammates from going down. Unless they CHOOSE to go AFK. 

I think of how I will be able to benefit the whole team. And in onslaught the goal is TO KILL EVERYTHING AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. Which multiple warframes can do but clearly some choose not to. So we shouldn’t farm because some want to “have fun”? Like I said, zero sense. 

[felixsylvaris]

There are people who like Saryns kit and general idea, one reason could be that she does not suck, and she could melee, but do not have to, and she is dps frame. And sometimes you need dps frame. It is suprsingly hard to find pure dps frame. Generally nerfing someones favorite frame in stupid way (to the ground) could shrink community.

There is a lot of focus on ESO, which i do not think is as important mode, and is very gimmick. Should be nerf Loki in Spy, or Frost in defense? A lot of discussion is eso eso eso, which could be no longer important once fortuna hits live. It is possible that ESO needs relax on efficiency drop, maybe more efficiency pickups till turn 8. To icrease roaster of frames, but players will probably stilll pick dps frames. Or find something else to beach about. They could invisible focus farm, but they do not. It is not about focus farm, but complaining.

i Have a bit different experience with Saryn, if there is a Volt he could do more or less same dps (and better kill count if that matters, whatever).. Tanky frames kill in 7:3 ratio, but they are tanky. Maybe my build is lacking some mods/arcanes. In other modes it is hard to grow big fat spores* 20m to even think about it) , and spamming miasma is as good as spamming spears or reckoning. More feedback from Saryn players needed.

As soon as Saryn got nerfed, there will be moaning about next frame. Frotuna may favour Volt and Mag (and she is not even that good) so postponing nerf is only sane option. It leaves warm feeling of spoiling someones game, while limiting damage.

Buffing: Nyx, Wukong, Atlas, Vauban, Titania, Chroma, Ember would definetly shake the usage chart.

If DE needs good ideas how to nerf Saryn without nerfing her:

Itroduce max spore damage equal to 200 corrosive * abillity power per spore. Which is similar to what other auras can do. Note that you can have 3 spores. But you need to babysit, and there is wind up timer. But remove initial 20% decay (it is pointless, and cuts Saryn off normal missions). Anything less than 100k we have now, and somehow scaling with abillity power. That is the point of abillity power to increase damage.

Reduce Miasma Range to 15m, now 20m is very generous. Even more since Saryn can take the beating (armour, molt) and it already stuns so can go deep. It is not Mag or Banshee where you need operate at range.

To offset that increase damage bonus on Toxic lash to like 50%/100%. Since it is self only buff, so might be good.

It is possible that would be a buff in effectivness, since lower spore damage gives more time to kill them and spread the spore, and more ticks of corrosive status. However tha end screen Damage Done value will be lower. And damage done is most important part of the warframe!

Edited September 20, 2018 by felixsylvaris

[Cibyllae]

On 2018-09-18 at 8:14 PM, Andaius said:

The new Saryn streamlines and simplifies the confusing math of the previous version with a more easy to understand and reliable system.

It's this kind of attitude towards frames that is killing their reworks. Making frames easier to play != frames that are more fun to play. 

[Enedora]

On 2018-09-18 at 8:14 PM, Andaius said:

The new Saryn streamlines and simplifies the confusing math of the previous version with a more easy to understand and reliable system. With a more reliable damage type too.  Toxin damage was fairly hard to get to reliably  damage stuff, with DR and immunities, and the finicky spore system of 2.0 saryn. In 2.0 you learned the special tricks that where pretty limited on the weapons you could use to execute those tricks.  Other wise the toxin proc spore wouldn't really work very good.

Except they made the change where Toxic lash applied toxin to all your weapons, not just you melee ones, which would have made it extremely easy to take advantage of the spore mechanics with any weapon with zero modification effort (which would simplify the frame), and I literally just explained in plain words how they could  simplify the skill to make it understandable. This is what the skill would say in the box, instead of the massive list of things it did then (and now):

Applies spores to an enemy and applying Viral status, dealing Toxin damage will spread Toxin and Viral to nearby enemies.

spread radius: X
range: X
damage: 25%

Thus, the skill is simplified, and all the effects that made the frame unique are kept intact. You wouldn't even need to make the number of spores a distinct number, just make it so the spore effect has a distinct time limit that can be refreshed by spreading them (which is literally the exact same mechanic we currently have, and have had, just with less unnecessary bloat) and nothing of consequence would change. If anything, it would make (software) optimization easier.

Then, you remove spores on molt (which they did) and make Miasma actually fit into the kit rather than having it be both too expensive and too ineffective to be useful. What they did instead, is just make the entire frame Spores and ignore all the rest of the kit, and made the least appealing / enjoyable playstyles that the frame has to offer mandatory.

You argue that they simplified the frame, and that's a good thing. I argue that they could have very easily simplified the frame without reworking (and in my opinion of the design, butchering) the entire frame, as they did.

It's times like this that make me wonder if people argue just to argue, or would be willing, at the bare minimum, to at least concede points that are sensible. Like, for example, having infinite damage potential on a first ability costing 25 energy is probably a bad design (and I'd argue for that) or, that the third ability should have been reworked or replaced to fit the new Q, but instead it's literally ripped from the last iteration with a tacked-on effect which was entirely necessary just to make the skill work at all. The toxin augment makes zero sense in the kit, given how the only purpose the E has for the new Saryn is to give every weapon she uses an effective spore-popping mechanism. Why is it here, as it is? Because the design intention is incoherent and the end result clearly demonstrates this.

These things should have been clear and obvious red flags for the design and the fact that it got past the drawing board anyway is nonsensical. 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Enedora

[Andaius]

3 hours ago, Enedora said:

Except they made the change where Toxic lash applied toxin to all your weapons, not just you melee ones, which would have made it extremely easy to take advantage of the spore mechanics with any weapon with zero modification effort (which would simplify the frame), and I literally just explained in plain words how they could  simplify the skill to make it understandable. This is what the skill would say in the box, instead of the massive list of things it did then (and now):

Applies spores to an enemy and applying Viral status, dealing Toxin damage will spread Toxin and Viral to nearby enemies.

spread radius: X
range: X
damage: 25%

Thus, the skill is simplified, and all the effects that made the frame unique are kept intact. You wouldn't even need to make the number of spores a distinct number, just make it so the spore effect has a distinct time limit that can be refreshed by spreading them (which is literally the exact same mechanic we currently have, and have had, just with less unnecessary bloat) and nothing of consequence would change. If anything, it would make (software) optimization easier.

Then, you remove spores on molt (which they did) and make Miasma actually fit into the kit rather than having it be both too expensive and too ineffective to be useful. What they did instead, is just make the entire frame Spores and ignore all the rest of the kit, and made the least appealing / enjoyable playstyles that the frame has to offer mandatory.

You argue that they simplified the frame, and that's a good thing. I argue that they could have very easily simplified the frame without reworking (and in my opinion of the design, butchering) the entire frame, as they did.

It's times like this that make me wonder if people argue just to argue, or would be willing, at the bare minimum, to at least concede points that are sensible. Like, for example, having infinite damage potential on a first ability costing 25 energy is probably a bad design (and I'd argue for that) or, that the third ability should have been reworked or replaced to fit the new Q, but instead it's literally ripped from the last iteration with a tacked-on effect which was entirely necessary just to make the skill work at all. The toxin augment makes zero sense in the kit, given how the only purpose the E has for the new Saryn is to give every weapon she uses an effective spore-popping mechanism. Why is it here, as it is? Because the design intention is incoherent and the end result clearly demonstrates this.

These things should have been clear and obvious red flags for the design and the fact that it got past the drawing board anyway is nonsensical. 

It pretty much keeps everything the previous frame did, Except the toxin damage being spread by Spore. they changed it to corrosive, and made it deal damage in a more reliable and predictable manner with up sides and downsides to it's management.  In essence they made her less nukey. Less dependent on special weapon and hard tricks to get good spore damage results with the finiky toxin system. All we can assume is that instead of rewriting the whole toxin spore calculations they opted to make it easier to understand and execute with the system now.

10 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

It's this kind of attitude towards frames that is killing their reworks. Making frames easier to play != frames that are more fun to play. 

Saryn practically didn't change much gameplay wise. Pretty much only thing that changed is how spores damage. She has to do the same stuff to spread the spores, she has to maintain the spores, and so on pretty much the same as she did before. Unless you like the special trick and limited weapon nuke version her toxin spore was? Where only certain weapons and tricks are used to put such massive toxin procs on whole rooms of enemies it was pretty much a one shot nuke, over and over. Then if you didn't know the special tricks and used the paticular weapons, your toxin procs on enemies where like 10-50 damage only.

[Cibyllae]

4 hours ago, Andaius said:



At the end of the day bud, doesn't matter how I played Saryn or what I think about her old spores. We have her as she is now and she is easier to use. Only reason why she sees so much play is onslaught, otherwise people would get bored of her right quick. She became a spam 4 frame ever since pablo made it so miasma spreads spores on death. That coupled with her current modding experience makes her overall experience worse than what she was. And that's fine, cause Saryn is best girl and she'll always be best girl. But this idea that making a frame easier to use means a better experience when playing that frame is something a child would say. Because children believe there is fun in easy things, because there is. But its not the right type of fun. Its not the type of fun that lasts. The type of fun that lasts can only be found in challenge. Saryn is many things, but she is no longer challenging. And I'm not mad, or sad, about that. I just think its unfortunate.

[Andaius]

1 hour ago, Cibyllae said:

At the end of the day bud, doesn't matter how I played Saryn or what I think about her old spores. We have her as she is now and she is easier to use. Only reason why she sees so much play is onslaught, otherwise people would get bored of her right quick. She became a spam 4 frame ever since pablo made it so miasma spreads spores on death. That coupled with her current modding experience makes her overall experience worse than what she was. And that's fine, cause Saryn is best girl and she'll always be best girl. But this idea that making a frame easier to use means a better experience when playing that frame is something a child would say. Because children believe there is fun in easy things, because there is. But its not the right type of fun. Its not the type of fun that lasts. The type of fun that lasts can only be found in challenge. Saryn is many things, but she is no longer challenging. And I'm not mad, or sad, about that. I just think its unfortunate.

Oh, so "fun" thats overly complected, doesn't work very good most of the time, and only is very good if you use very particular spammy combos (namely molt spore bomb) that limits what weapons you can use effectively is "adult". XD Then yay for extemely limited one trick nuke spam!

Edited September 21, 2018 by Andaius

[Asherdr]

Basically, you want to play third person CoD...This is WARFRAME, living weapons of immeasurable power and exotic abilities, but no, lets just use guns, cuz that doesnt get old insanely fast when your team mates choose to take garbage auras instead of corrosive projection to combat mob armor scaling.

Saryn doesnt need a nerf, the mechanics she is used to compensate for, need to be changed. Why do we bring a kill frame into a farming mission? To farm faster or more effectively. When content is boring, you skip it as much as possible, and that is what kill frames do. Nerfing kill frames  to satisfy your gun fetish would increase the boredom overall, not reduce it. 

Some propositions to reduce the need for killframes to alleviate boredom.
What if defence missions instead had a kill counter per five waves equivalent, enemeis constantly spawning sanctuary style, reach that kill number and receive your loot, WAY BETTER than stop starting over and over.
Survival. Fill the life support meter before the timer runs out, a much faster and skill/frame oriented solution.
Relic cracking, new mission in the void and only the void, enemies spawn in based on the tier of relic chosen and the level of upgrade, for each person in the group, kill enough the boss for each relic spawns in, kill them get your loot.
Interception needs its timer cranked up, then its fine. a 1.2x or 1.3x would be more than adequate.
Sanctuary will also provide Simaris rep, because why isnt it doing that already....
Focus passive gain will be increased by x4-5 times its current value, the ability orb will be removed.
EVERY ENDLESS MISSION will have a console at an exit point that you can use to leave the mission Individually or stand at the exit to engage a proximity group vote to leave. Again, why isn't this a thing already.

 

On 2018-08-17 at 6:16 AM, xethier said:

A simple quick solution is to add range based damage falloff to warframe abilities.

A solution I'm very in favor of.

 

Overextended already has a strength penalty on it........ Everyone who seems in favor of nerfing warframes or warframe abilities, doesnt seem to remember the name of the game, WARFRAME. If my warframe isnt the lynchpin of the gameplay, then this is no better than 3rd person shooter simulator.

[Xaero]

2 hours ago, Asherdr said:

Everyone who seems in favor of nerfing warframes or warframe abilities, doesnt seem to remember the name of the game, WARFRAME. If my warframe isnt the lynchpin of the gameplay, then this is no better than 3rd person shooter simulator.

If active gameplay is not promoted and mindless spam/semi-afk gameplay is a viable option, the game should be called BORINGFRAME.

[Asherdr]

So because the option to opt out of pointless bullet spraying exists, the entire game is therefore boring?  What is melee attacking if not mindless spamming? Secondaries and primaries go the same way, hold down the trigger and spray or tappa tappa tappa, spam spam spam.

Its interesting that people even target saryn for the spam title in elite sanctuary, when she usually ends the sanctuary with fewest abilities cast. You cant spam 4, and spamming 1 defies the point. Apply the spores, hit the target with toxic lash, profit. What almost everyone is calling spam, is actually ability synergy, thanks to Active Gameplay Changes made to her last build, wow. Changes, not nerfs.

Just because you are performing an "active" play style, doesn't make you effective, or make it interesting. Hunting Eidolons being case in point, very active, boring as watching paint dry, all the more so when people bring the wrong load outs to contribute to the kill.

And finally, personal taste and preference, everyone is different. I enjoy a good mesa waltz every now and then, and sometimes i enjoy cleaving through an infested survival with inaros melee builds. I tolerate Elite sanctuary farm, only because of aoe kill frames.

[MageSkeleton]

The problem is not "saryn" the problem is the game mode.

ESO demands of you to kill everything in the room within an amount of time, and if you kill everything quickly you gain percentage, mind you, this is ONLY if you kill EVERYTHING in the room. This means that frames like Saryn and Volt are going to be choice picks because they do near map wide damage where most maps have WALLS. Walls of which melee weapons cannot hit through, and the average player's "Punch Through" value prevents players from shooting through. So this game mode as a whole is flawed and should use the PoE "Liberate the area/camp" as an example.

In the PoE when your "liberating the camp" there are no walls. You kill enemies and you gain in percentage. THIS IS HOW ESO SHOULD WORK. The percentage should not be a hybrid of Life Support and Interception, it needs to reflect the number of enemies actually on the map where then each zone enemies spawn onto the map faster. And if the map is too full of enemies THEN players get kicked out.

 

Defection is a mess, but i have an idea.