Elite Onslaught is Pointless Boredom Because of Saryn

[Haeen]

14 hours ago, Buttaface said:

This would lead to more engaging play and greater player retention IMO. .

It doesnt, psychology ssys otherwise.

[4thBro]

I used to think Saryn was overpowered for anything non-boss oriented. She 1-shots the entire map of late-game enemies. "Eh, at least she can't do that to bosses."

 

Then I learned about her 3.

Toxic Lash, a multiplicative damage bonus to her weapons. Pretty godly for bosses.

 

On 2018-08-18 at 8:08 PM, Pooroldude said:

She isn't overpowered. She can't do tri-eido, she can't survive lvl 300 onehits, She can die.

She's not omnipotent, yet.

Besides, many frame can somewhat replicate what saryn can do, just with less efficiency and more effort, such as mag and volt (for eso).

BUT OH BOY, AT LEAST SHE STILL GETS 1-SHOT BY LEVEL 300 ENEMIES!

 

So does everyone, by the way.

 

Found the Saryn player, though. Of course it's the weeb avatar, eh?

[Sesaline]

4 hours ago, 4thBro said:

I used to think Saryn was overpowered for anything non-boss oriented. She 1-shots the entire map of late-game enemies. "Eh, at least she can't do that to bosses."

 

Then I learned about her 3.

Toxic Lash, a multiplicative damage bonus to her weapons. Pretty godly for bosses.

 

BUT OH BOY, AT LEAST SHE STILL GETS 1-SHOT BY LEVEL 300 ENEMIES!

 

So does everyone, by the way.

 

Found the Saryn player, though. Of course it's the weeb avatar, eh?

it adds up to 60% of the melee's total damage, based on modded power str. So max power build it would be 123.6% added from total damage. 

Where are you pulling multiplicative from? I'm confused. Also primary and secondary only receive half of that bonus for the duration.

In building max power to achieve this level of a bonus, you would be dedicating a whopping 7 mod slots, one of which being Growing Power in the aura slot. You wouldn't be able to achieve max range because Overextended decreases power str by 60%. Your efficiency? well into the negative if your Blind Rage is maxed. So for this crazy OP skill to be even remotely crazy you would have a negative range, negative efficiency, negative duration Saryn (or all 3 if you need survivability mods), depending on what you use those three remaining slots for.

Volt's shield will multiply crit damage by 200%. Maybe you're thinking of that. idk. lol but you definitely aren't referring to Toxic Lash because if so you're wrong.

The wiki is a great read when you're done bashing on people for their profile avatars. Should try checking it out sometime! 

Quote

• Toxic Lash adds damage to every weapon attack calculated from Saryn's total weapon damage before damage resistances are applied. (e.g., with a maxed Intensify and a weapon that inflicts 300 total damage before damage resistances are factored, a rank-3 Toxic Lash will add 300 × 0.3 × 1.3 = 117  Toxin damage to each strike).

 

[Sesaline]

also lol at the biased upvotes from people who like to blindly follow misinformed users that share their thirst for nerfs.

[4thBro]

I'm not nerf-happy. But Saryn-type things directly affect other players' ability to play the game.

 

Quote

• Toxic Lash adds damage to every weapon attack calculated from Saryn's total weapon damage beforedamage resistances are applied. (e.g., with a maxed Intensify and a weapon that inflicts 300 total damage before damage resistances are factored, a rank-3 Toxic Lash will add 300 × 0.3 × 1.3 = 117  Toxindamage to each strike).
• The additional  Toxin damage is treated as a separate instance of damage and does not combine with elemental damage on the weapon.

 

^ From the wiki.

So tell me what part about this isn't multiplicative to you.

 

It adds its damage calculated off the weapon's total damage. It is a separate instance of damage not modified by the weapon's mods.

This makes it a multiplicative bonus.

 

You are right in that you probably won't have a ~300% Strength build with it. But if you don't think you can get a 230+ Strength build while also maintaining Overextended range, you aren't building your frames very well.

And that being said, why don't ya go ahead and list off all the frames that even HAVE multiplicative damage bonus abilities.

 

If you think even a 60% multiplicative damage bonus isn't insane, you're playing a different game.

[Sesaline]

5 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

-snip-

um the fact that it adds the calculated damage instead of outright multiplying the damage?

 

Why would I list all of those abilities off? It wouldn't change Toxic Lash being additive based on a weapon's total damage. It simply tacks on a calculated amount of Toxin damage.

Notice how the wiki doesn't say that the damage is multiplicative like it does on skills that actually are multiplicative? It says added. It's not taking the base total damage of a weapon and multiplying it outright. It would definitely be op if it worked that way.

The separate instance of damage is calculated from the base damage of the weapon. How does that make this skill multiplicative? It's additive. It's added damage, not multiplied damage. 

 

 

[Buttaface]

19 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

Did you miss the part where I said that rather than nerfing powers it would be much better and much easier to add more challenging game modes instead of spending hours in endless missions for any actual challenge?

Agreed with that also, Recently have been playing lots of high Index to get a cred cushion, stopped at 45,000,000, and it was surprisingly fun without endless power spam. IMO, that's closer to what the base game should be. They should polish/adapt that into other game modes, maybe minus the harsh financial stress, and adapt some of the preexisting higher modes into similar.

But the problem remains that in the current regular tile pug, powers and their misuse make the game mediocre in fun factor. What happens is that the crutch frames and powers (Mesa, Equinox, Saryn, now Volt... and lots of others) that are in the game to allow bad players to still "win" via a few button presses are inevitably used by tryhards to dominate matches unnecessarily. Equally bad is the inappropriate use of powers that slow down later rounds/time, reduce the team's dps due to obnoxious graphics. I believe this affects retention negatively. If I had time to learn another game, would probably have left WF long ago, and I'm no uber elitist, just an average to somewhat above average gamer who expects to get a certain amount of team fun out of hopping into random matches in games. WF no longer delivers that IMO.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Buttaface

[DeMonkey]

21 minutes ago, Sesaline said:

um the fact that it adds the calculated damage instead of outright multiplying the damage?

The formula at base value for actual damage is ''Total Modded damage x (1+30%)''. That's a multiplication.

Additive is better represented by something like Arcane Avenger, in which the formula is ''Current crit chance + 30%''. That's an addition.

Where's the harm in calling it multiplicative, I wonder? We all know what they mean if it's actually incorrect.

[Sesaline]

32 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

The formula at base value for actual damage is ''Total Modded damage x (1+30%)''. That's a multiplication.

Additive is better represented by something like Arcane Avenger, in which the formula is ''Current crit chance + 30%''. That's an addition.

Where's the harm in calling it multiplicative, I wonder? We all know what they mean if it's actually incorrect.

For the separate damage, yes, the formula involves multiplication. It doesn't multiply base damage (as in damage you do when you shoot or use melee). So it's an additive even if the formula requires multiplication to find the value that is added to damage dealt. I wonder how many different ways I can phrase this.

When someone puts up in bold that toxic lash is multiplicative like that, it is implying that Toxic Lash multiples the damage she does. Aaaand it doesn't. Not everyone is going to know the difference. Some might, some may not. So for clarity, I stepped in to say that it isn't just multiplicative. It's additive and far less menacing sounding than 'omg this is super op against everything including bosses'.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Sesaline

[DeMonkey]

27 minutes ago, Sesaline said:

I wonder how many different ways I can phrase this

Not enough for anyone to care.

27 minutes ago, Sesaline said:

Aaaand it doesn't.

Aaaand it does?

If it adds 30% of your total damage, then it multiplies your total damage by (1+30%) to get the new damage, with ''Total Damage x 30%'' being solely Toxin. That is multiplicative, or rather, ''subject to or of the nature of multiplication''.

Or is, say, Smite Infusion additive as well? That multiplies your total damage by a percentage to get your new damage.

What about Roar? That too multiplies your total damage by a percentage.

Is it solely about the fact that the Toxin damage is separate to the main damage? In which case, that seems needlessly pedantic. It's still a multiplication.

27 minutes ago, Sesaline said:

So for clarity, I stepped in to say that it isn't just multiplicative. It's additive and far less menacing sounding than 'omg this is super op against everything including bosses'.

No one is going to read that a multiplicative 30% damage boost is super OP against everything including bosses.

They're going to read it, multiply their damage by (1+30%) and go ''oh look, I do more damage now''.

When taking into consideration the fact that the bonus damage is then re-dealt 5 and half times over the course of 10 seconds, it's easy to see why someone would think it's pretty sweet for bosses.

Edited August 21, 2018 by DeMonkey
Clarification

[GeorgeNoX]

I cant agree with you, Saryn is a frame with a specific job, to clear trash as fast as possible. That's her thing. Every frame in this game has a thing he's OP at and a thing he sucks at. She's perfect for Onslaught and therefore she should be preety OP in that mode, considering enemies are clumped close together on a relatively small map so ofc she will melt the room in seconds with the right build, its what she is for. She's also preety good at modes where enemies keep coming at you, like defense, mobile defense and survival to some extent. But she sucks at spy for instance. Not every frame is for everything and no frame is good for just one thing as they can all perform well in all modes with various degrees of success. For me personally she is now at a perfect place, where you want fast kills for better mission performance and faster leveling of weapons as a direct result

[failedtodiet]

2 hours ago, 4thBro said:

I'm not nerf-happy. But Saryn-type things directly affect other players' ability to play the game.

 

 

^ From the wiki.

So tell me what part about this isn't multiplicative to you.

 

It adds its damage calculated off the weapon's total damage. It is a separate instance of damage not modified by the weapon's mods.

This makes it a multiplicative bonus.

 

You are right in that you probably won't have a ~300% Strength build with it. But if you don't think you can get a 230+ Strength build while also maintaining Overextended range, you aren't building your frames very well.

And that being said, why don't ya go ahead and list off all the frames that even HAVE multiplicative damage bonus abilities.

 

If you think even a 60% multiplicative damage bonus isn't insane, you're playing a different game.

I'm curious, what's your Saryn build ?. I'm unable to maintain 230+str without chewing though pizzas and giving up on most survivability mods.

[ZectorV1]

This kind of crap is why chroma got gutted. Just stop. 

[Sesaline]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

.

Keep in mind that this is a nerf-Saryn thread. I intend to flesh out arguments with detail. I'm glad posters here are willing to discuss together actually (even if it seems like arguing to some). It all needs to be said to further explain how Saryn actually works and open up areas in which she could be either toned down or improved. Still, nothing beats actually trying her out in the situations mentioned in this thread. 

As for Toxic Lash, I think the simplest way I can put it is that the 117 toxin damage from 300 base weapon damage isn't going to multiply her usual damage dealt. It's separate damage added on. It's not (Saryn's weapon damage x 117 toxin). Toxic Lash isn't going to combine with whatever elements are modded onto that weapon either (to produce more elemental combinations). It's just added toxin damage. An extra tick. Not going to talk more about this because there's no point in debating with someone who would rather twist official wordings in order to suit their narrative or defend another user that did the same.

Context is important and a lot of posters here are leaving out those details or twisting them. I don't want to let that slide personally; not on a thread like this.

[Case1]

I literally never see Saryn outside of ESO, Sorties (and 90% of the time just sortie 3) and Hydron 

ESO Saryn is very welcome

Sorties she is also welcome 

And hydron is for leveling so anything that makes it go faster is VERY welcome 

"fun" doesn't matter on any of those its all about efficiency, I just want to get to wave ten or finish the sortie and get my reward or level my gear as fast as possible "fun" doesn't factor in to any of that.

And outside of those modes I see a saryn like every, maybe every 10th game or so I hop into with a pub squad, Maybe.  

Edited August 21, 2018 by Case1

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Sesaline said:

As for Toxic Lash, I think the simplest way I can put it is that the 117 toxin damage from 300 base weapon damage isn't going to multiply her usual damage dealt.

Correct. However absolutely no one but you would think that, apparently.

I don't think a single person in their right mind would multiply 300 by 30% to get 117 and then somehow multiply the 300 by the 117.

2 minutes ago, Sesaline said:

It's just added toxin damage.

Toxin damage that is derived from a multiplication of the weapons damage, yes.

3 minutes ago, Sesaline said:

Not going to talk more about this because there's no point in debating with someone who would rather twist official wordings in order to suit their narrative or defend another user that did the same.

Ironic because that's literally what you did.

You see someone refer to it as ''multiplicative'', and in your ''anti-Saryn nerf'' mentality have decided to try and make that sound less powerful that what ''someone'' might consider it to be, as such you're ''twisting official wordings to suit your narrative''.

And let's face it, I'm hardly ''twisting'' anything, that is literally the definition of ''multiplicative'' and it fits Toxin Lash.

Toxin Lash's block reduction, now that is an additive bonus. 

[angias]

You know....it's easier to do a simple multiplication than a multiplication followed by an addition.

(Damage x 1.3) instead of (damage + damage x 0.3)

[Sesaline]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

.

You have a way of reading things only the way you want to see it. 

I am listing facts straight from the wiki. How is that my narrative? It's backing up facts and writing between the lines where others can't seem to. 

if base damage is 300 and then the toxin formula equates to 117, why would i take that 300 and multiply it by 117? I am talking about her damage before the skill is even applied, which is common sense because that is how the skill works. Your reading comprehension has been iffy this whole time--even when you read over the wiki. You want to say that the skill is multiplicative when it clearly says it is additive both in game and on the wiki. I'm at a loss for words here on what to say at this point.

I'm not anti-saryn nerf. I'm pro facts. And the fact is that you're overreaching into a debate that you clearly can't make heads or tails of. What someone 'considers' 'may' be 'op' is not fact and no basis for debate. It's their intuition and that is fine. But when they want to spread false info, I am going to say something about it.  

[Synpai]

On 2018-08-16 at 5:48 PM, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Yeah well but the game is promoted as "3rd person shooter" and being "COOP", not as "flashy slot machine simulator... in space".

We have much more here to fix than just the ranges and nukes in terms of cooperation.

• Element combinations: Not able to achieve dual elemental combos outside of special weapons (Lord do I miss that mass effect feeling of chaining two abilities)
• Ability design: Buffs that need kills to stay active or take effect, putting you in competition with your allies
• Enemy design/damage changes: I've been saying for so long it shouldn't take one weapon to play at higher levels. Why are we masters of three weapons if we only have to use one. This would mean faster swap speed, but a "hard enemy" would just take multiple weapons/damage types to kill.

Then I'm all for stricter energy management, but that's like taking all of the carpet out of the office and installing hardwood floors. Trying to do that with normal business happening is problematic. It could have an incredible payoff though (les see what Anthem brings)

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, (PS4)JohnnyPersia said:

The thing I don't understand about her "rework" is that nerfed Ember and Banshee for the explicit reason of their skills having too much of a negative influence on others' experience. They had skills that would clear entire rooms at the press of a button, minimizing the need for anyone else to do anything.

Yet, they go and "rework" Sayrn to give her the exact same capability. I don't really see a difference, and to me it just shows inconsistency on DE's part.

For what it's worth, I can't stand playing with Sayrn's now because they completely minimize my need to even participate.

That's not really the right frames to compare Saryn to. 

You'd be more correct if you compared her to Volt since their ultimates are similar for room clearing. Saryn's #1 needs constant attention (except for targets you activly cast spores on, which also reduces your stacks) in order to spread, either through attacking/killing or using miasma.

She is a far more active frame than old WoF Ember or Spamshee.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Synpai:

Ability design: Buffs that need kills to stay active or take effect, putting you in competition with your allies

Yes, definitely agree... See Harrow, who i consider one of the best frame designs in recent time and thoroughly fun to play with (although number-wise (energy replenishment in particular) even he might deserve to be looked at).

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Synpai:

This would mean faster swap speed

See, this would a kind of buff i'd totally be happy about.

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Synpai:

Then I'm all for stricter energy management, but that's like taking all of the carpet out of the office and installing hardwood floors.

Yes, there's a distinct risk of alienating a large part of the playerbase (at first) which is why i guess DE are so reluctant to touch the energy problem at its core. I'm convinced though that it'd be for the better in the long run and would make skills even all the more satisfying to use, nukes in particular, if you took some management / strategy to work towards it first.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[DeMonkey]

54 minutes ago, Sesaline said:

You have a way of reading things only the way you want to see it. 

I am listing facts straight from the wiki. How is that my narrative? It's backing up facts and writing between the lines where others can't seem to. 

if base damage is 300 and then the toxin formula equates to 117, why would i take that 300 and multiply it by 117? I am talking about her damage before the skill is even applied, which is common sense because that is how the skill works. Your reading comprehension has been iffy this whole time--even when you read over the wiki. You want to say that the skill is multiplicative when it clearly says it is additive both in game and on the wiki. I'm at a loss for words here on what to say at this point.

I'm not anti-saryn nerf. I'm pro facts. And the fact is that you're overreaching into a debate that you clearly can't make heads or tails of. What someone 'considers' 'may' be 'op' is not fact and no basis for debate. It's their intuition and that is fine. But when they want to spread false info, I am going to say something about it.  

You're not making a lot of sense, although your attempted insults are funny, ''iffy reading comprehension'', ''overreaching'' puh-lease.

It's no bother to me ofc, I can reciprocate in kind, because that's the kinda sod I am.

 

I shall ask you a single very simple question, it shouldn't be too hard (although given your previous posts on this matter I do have my doubts).

How do you work out the amount of Toxin damage that is to be added?

I'll give you a few seconds to work it out, *cue countdown music*.

No? That's a darned shame, I had such high hopes for you.

The answer is that you multiply the total damage of the weapon, making the value of the Toxin damage multiplicative.

To explain this again, multiplicative's definition is ''subject to or of the nature of multiplication''.

Toxin damage or even just damage in general is of course the subject, and in order to work out your damage you have to subject it to multiplication in the form of the formula ''Total damage x (1+30%)''.

If you want to know the total damage of your weapon, you perform multiplication. This means that each figure can also be argued to be ''of the nature of'' multiplication as it requires multiplication to get it.

Isn't learning fun, I'm glad we took this journey together.

No one is going to get confused if someone refers to Toxin Lash as multiplicative.

Once again, look at Toxin Lashes Blocking Reduction stats, that is additive. There is a very clear difference between the two.

Edited August 21, 2018 by DeMonkey

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

This thread hasn't died yet??  Must be a slow week....

[DeMonkey]

Just now, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

This thread hasn't died yet??  Must be a slow week....

It hasn't turned to pointless insults yet.

I mean, er.

It hadn't*.

[Kemenril]

Thread is dumb. Saryn is awesome for clearing trash mobs. Otherwise you're watching Corrosion ticks on 100s who in the meantime will kill her fast unless she's kiting and using corners to hide. Frame is only OP if you think the largest number of kills wins you missions. 

But it doesn't.