Elite Onslaught is Pointless Boredom Because of Saryn

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Nyraxx:

I think she is fine as is, she shines in certain situations, but under performs in others, similar to how Ivara is good at spy, but weak to a strong breeze. 😛

Ivara is not only good at spy missions, she also doesn't care about enemy scaling but she's not the mincing machine Saryn is. I find Saryn to be in a similar position like Ember was before her recent rework - just that her ability to hinder others to contribute to mission success is not limited to the star chart like Ember is.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb IceColdHawk:

Besides that, you realize how it was so much lazier before (Cast Molt and Spore on it while throwing a Zenistar disc, Pox or Torid at the Molt) while being a complete macro machine? And nobody complained about such unimaginative and lazy playstyle?

Yeah mechanic- and synergy-wise she's definitely much better now, asking for a much more active gameplay which is absolutely a good thing.

It's just the numbers.

If ESO really only is managable for 1-3 frames the drain of said mode should be looked at in my book, to make a greater variety of frames viable. Most popular game modes feature hordes of enemies clumped together, claiming she's OP in only one mode is and understatement, aside from the fact that one is one too many already.

[Lenyatta]

4 hours ago, tychondus said:

1. sub-set of Warframe 'community' wanted Banshee nerfed due to her augment making here the best choice for farming focus/exp. DE obliged. Instead of thanking them the 'fat asses who wanted to just press a button and go take a drink while the game plays itself' were enraged. 

2. sub-set of Warframe 'community' wanted Ember nerfed due to her WOF was killing everything. DE obliged. The 'low lvl content cheesers' got enraged at the nerf.

This makes more sense to me

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, zombiedeadhead said:

Saryn is a totalnoobframe now, and no one will admit it. Broken by 2 totally unnesecary reworks, and likely to stay that way becuase who's going to admit they made a mistake. Press 4, press 4, press 4.

 

You just described Volt, Banshee, Frost, Gara, Saryn, Limbo, Mag, Oberon, Mirage, Rhino, Mesa, and possibly even Nezha. Also dont forget Ember and Enox, both requiring less presses on #4. Another thing that unites them is that they are all good at different types of missions, Saryn included.

Edited August 24, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[Xolgys]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb zombiedeadhead:

Saryn is a totalnoobframe now, and no one will admit it. Broken by 2 totally unnesecary reworks, and likely to stay that way becuase who's going to admit they made a mistake. Press 4, press 4, press 4.

 

i see u have no clue about saryn at all when u say "press 4, press 4,...".

ur term "totalnoobframe" is already enough proof of that but to make it worse theres more where that came from. the previous kit of hers was just as silly as the current. the ability describtion just didnt tell it so it was something only people who dedicated some time knew or had an experienced saryn player tell them.

besides, there are many many frames who can face roll any basic mission in the game with just "press 4, press 4,...".

ESO is a perfect scenario for saryn. taking that as an example to judge her is just wrong. she has a set level range of enemies and content where she truly shines right now. above that and she lacks the cc and real survivability to do very well on her own, below that level and all she can do is buff her weapon or use miasma, which is not the best 4 amongst all warframes so that shouldnt be any reason to cry. toxic lash is silly strong but its still "just" a selfbuff which doesnt do anything on its own without the player so no crying there too, okay ? whats left ? molt...totally broken i know.... spore ? u dont need armor removal there yet and it kills waaaaay too fast to be usable unless u want to spam it which lowers stacks and prevents stacking which already cant happen cause enemies die too fast so the whole cycle ain't worth it at all and is literally inefficient and a total hassle for nothing.

sounds pretty broken, right ?

 

[angias]

Il y a 6 heures, Andaius a dit :

It's not that easy to manage. There's plenty of ways to shut it down thats beyond your control.

1. It starts off very weak, needs enemies infected (thats capped at max 10) to build up. Enemies need to stay alive as long as possible to keep infected number going. (If your team mates kill the enemies your stack is going to slow way down and if they run out of enemies your stack is going to reset to 0)

2.  Your stacks will pretty much always reset to 0 between waves. As it takes something like 4 seconds of no infected to reduce stacks to 0. First tick of 0 infected takes down 20% of your stacks, thats a big hit. it's 10% eact tick after. (IIRC a tick is .5 seconds.)

3. If your stacks are so strong that it kills before you build up much stacks it can burn itself out quickly. Especially if your playing on more open maps tiles. Or if your team mates kill a gap to far for spores to jump.

 

Spore shuting down by itself or by teamate is part of the management.

That help mechanicly, if it kill too fast that mean your buildup is too high and can't sustain itself or be sustained adequately, if the team kill S#&$ too fast spore is not needed in the first place.

Spore manage itself mechanicly by resseting it's buildup when it's too strong for the situation.

For high level content If you use spore for damage, your squad will have difficulty to kill enemy fast enough to spread efficiently.

The best way to buildup is to kill enemy at different interval, this allow the spore to infect a maximum of target. Instead waiting the perfect moment to kill them all and making a single big spread wich is a hit or miss case.

Also if your ally know the slightest how spore works they will try to kill the infected first. (Unless they are scoreboard hero)

 

 

My hint is...the same way you try to keep track of your ammo and energy, pay attention to the number of infected enemy. Not to guess the buildup rate but figure out the risk of it shuting down. If you want strong spore you should constanly be trying to increase the number of infected, routinely checking if there are dots in all direction.

Saryn being one of my main, i am probably underestimating the difficulty of the management task.

Edited August 24, 2018 by angias

[Daskrieg]

On 2018-08-18 at 8:06 PM, Kraythax said:

Before the rework she was weak. Now she makes the old ember look like an MR1. 

Her 1 is a cheap skill that does all the damage. It can be modded up so that immediately when enemies spawn in onslaught they are dead. I have seen them Spawned, and die before they cane even move. Not to mention it can be modded up so it literally covers an entire onslaught match. Its impossible to go into a onslaught without being practically a spectator. The frame is RIDICULOUSLY overpowered. Tone it down to at least something moderately reasonable. No doubt I will get flamed by a ton of Saryn players but anyone in a game with Saryn is little more than a spectator. Until then, its going to be my policy to leave any onslaught squad with Saryn in it. 

The rest of us would like to get a few kills now and then.

EDIT: Left 4 squads in 5 min. All with 2 or 3 saryns in them. 

Its posts like this that show why we can't have nice things.

Joke aside, yes she is strong now but this setup that we have been left with does require some rotation and management of skills, had this been back prerework you may have missed what she could do back then as well, drop molt, use aoe weapon on molt, cover with spores, rinse repeat and wipe the map, and for good measure to ensure death hit 4, less damage than she does now but same effect since the spores then did viral and when buffed with a rhino made short work of alot of enemies. Im not going to tell you suck it up and i won't say that sometimes this is not annoying but ESO is probably the main area you will find her using a map covering setup, i use her in there myself with a high range setup but im not using alot of strength on my build but if asked to stop spreading spores i stop spreading them and stick to just using toxic lash with my gunblade.

We all have frames we dislike getting paired with in some matches (looks at soundquake spamming banshees) but best we can do is be polite and just deal with the situation the best we can and enjoy the game.

[RealPandemonium]

21 hours ago, Andaius said:

I know thats one of the big reasons I hated the arguments for the Ember nerf. Stuff can't be nerfed because it can kill pre-30 stuff fast.

I don't think that the WoF changes happened because of low-level farming.  They rightfully nerfed the energy consumption and attempted to change it from a completely passive ability to a more active one.  I like the changes, although I think they could use more polish.  The reason they gave for the changes, though, is complete BS.  DE frequently makes major gaffes like this; I'm pretty sure that at least some staff members, if not a lot of them, have little idea of what the game is actually like.  

Edited August 25, 2018 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)Sgt_Buttscratch]

Such illogical thinking, A warframe performs well in CERTAIN/SPECIFIC circumstances???!!! NERF IT.

BAD

 

The idea is, collect frames and weapons, then chose the right combo for the right mission. Some frames will never be good for onslaught, some fail at kuva farming, some cant eidelon.
If i join a random onslaught and there is a saryn I'm happy, same applies for a nekros in Kuva surv(He is overpowered no? makes survival a non issue). If you don't like the way a warframe work..don't play it.

[Andaius]

4 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

I don't think that the WoF changes happened because of low-level farming.  They rightfully nerfed the energy consumption and attempted to change it from a completely passive ability to a more active one.  I like the changes, although I think they could use more polish.  The reason they gave for the changes, though, is complete BS.  DE frequently makes major gaffes like this; I'm pretty sure that at least some staff members, if not a lot of them, have little idea of what the game is actually like.  

What they did to it was basically in effect reverting it back to it's non-channeling days. If back then the duration only lasted 5-8 seconds or so.

[V0LK]

Did not read.

Saryn is not the problem. Power spam is! There's nothing wrong with a warframe being able to nuke the whole room and the one next to it. Being able to do it EVERY TWO SECONDS for entire time is a problem!

If DE will nerf Saryn(which they'll do, I'm sure) players will change to a new meta and the cycle will continue.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor einer Stunde schrieb V0LK:

Did not read.

Saryn is not the problem. Power spam is! There's nothing wrong with a warframe being able to nuke the whole room and the one next to it. Being able to do it EVERY TWO SECONDS for entire time is a problem!

If DE will nerf Saryn(which they'll do, I'm sure) players will change to a new meta and the cycle will continue.

While i agree in general i feel in this case a nerf (damage-/range cap or the like) is inevitable anyway since her potency mostly stems from her 1 ability, which even in a balanced energy scenario should be on somewhat spammable side in my book. Directly compare damage capability of spores with Shuriken, Shock, FIreball etc... The discrepancy is extreme.

[Signs]

This is a discussion about Saryn 3.0 vs Saryn 2.0

My point of view is from a player who enjoys endurance runs. Non of that bite-sized stuff

My thoughts on Saryn's abilities

1. Spores

 

Current Spores —
- Spores now deal corrosive damage, apply corrosive procs and scale up to 100,000 damage per tick. Corrosive + scaling damage is controversial. If I were to ever need that scaling damage, I would have 4 corrosive projection. 
- Spores is now an infinite duration ability. This makes Saryn extremely lazy as I can just spread the spore and afk and the enemies will die. 
- Spores now decay damage when not affecting any enemies and when recasting the ability. This is so controversial. I build up damage up to the point where I one shot enemies.. and then I lose all that damage because all the enemies are dead and the decay is so huge...

Spores is now a very lazy ability with questionable numbers and damage type.

2. Molt

 

Current Molt —
- Molt now draws enemy fire. A nice thing to add.
- Molt now absorbs damage for 1.5/2/3/3 seconds and adds it to the health of the Molt. Not very useful. At higher levels, if enemies shoot the Molt for 3 seconds, it will last an additional 3 seconds because they will deal the damage it absorbed in the same amount of time and then kill it. Not too useful.
- Molt removes all existing status effects. This is mildly useful for removing annoying cold procs, or saving yourself from a slash/toxin proc... right? But I can just hop into operator to nullify the damage of slash/toxin procs..?
- Molt grants a movement speed buff for 3.5/4/4.5/5 seconds. Cool, not that useful, going fast is cool though.
- Molt deals AOE toxin damage with a 100% status chance when it dies or you recast it. This was always on Molt but I should mention it anyways.

Overall, Molt got some nice stuff but lost some very important stuff as well (which I will get into later).

3. Toxic Lash

 

Current Toxic Lash —
- Toxic Lash now buffs all weapons (doubled on melee). This is awesome, extra toxin damage on all weapons is really nice. Maybe a new name would be nice though.
- Toxic Lash now 100% procs toxin. Very good, can stack a lot of damage with the large amounts of toxin.
- Toxic Lash (always) popped spores no matter where you hit the target. This has always been a thing and is very useful when you don't have your ignis wraith (which every saryn player should have).
- Toxic Lash (always) gave more melee block %. Not very useful at all.

This is what toxic lash should have been in Saryn 2.0. Now it is what all Saryn 2.0 players dreamed of.

4. Miasma

 

Current Miasma —
- Now deals and applies viral instead of corrosive. I'm 50/50 split on this ability compared to the old one.
- Now deals double damage to enemies affected by spores. A nice synergy.. except they removed a ton (which I will get into later).
- (Always) stunned enemies. A brief stun was helpful at times.
- Reduced Cost to 75. A nice buff to an ability that was cast quite often.

New Miasma, like I said, I'm split 50/50 on compared to the old one

 

SARYN'S ABILITIES AS A WHOLE

CURRENT SYNERGIES —

 

- Spores are spread if the enemy dies from any source, as long as they are under the influence of Miasma and Molt's AOE toxin damage.
- Miasma deals 200% damage to enemies affected by spores
- Toxic Lash pops all spores on enemies hit by anything while active

huh..? Pretty short list of synergies ehh?

SARYN 2.0 SYNERGIES — (How do I still remember these? Because I loved Saryn)

 

- Spores can be cast on Molt with a 50% reduction in energy cost. Enemies who attack molt will get infected with spores.
- If Spores are popped on an enemy suffering a toxin proc (which can be applied from Molt's explosion and Toxic Lash), spores will also carry that toxin damage when spreading to nearby enemies. I bet most people didn't even know this. That is why I said Saryn 3.0 Toxic Lash is every Saryn 2.0 player dreamed of because it will force proc toxin which could be spread via Saryn 2.0 spores.
- Miasma dealt extra damage if enemies were under the influence of toxin and viral procs that was stackable (to deal a total of 400% damage). Viral could be spread with spores and toxin could be spread with both Molt and Toxic Lash.
- If Molt was in the range of Miasma when cast, Molt will explode and gain extra damage from Miasma
- When Molt explodes, it also will pop all spores on the Molt
- When Toxic Lash is active, killing enemies affected by Spores will restore energy

 

My Suggestions

Spores

 

- not infinite duration
- corrosive damage is fine
- bring back spores dealing damage when popped. Right now, spores deal no damage when popped, it only spreads the spore. It used to deal damage when spores were popped.
- bring back the ability to spread toxin procs
- remove the "spores scale just for existing". make people actually put work in to get the damage via toxin proc spreading from guns. ask players like Lifeof Rio and they will tell you. 

I honestly don't know why this is infinite scaling okay. Nidus has to build stacks. Equinox has to actually kill enemies to get their health as damage. Octavia has to get enemies to shoot her 1 (not too hard but has a duration!). Gara has to cast 4, move to the AOE radius, and then cast 1 on it. But Saryn gets a scaling for existing and infinite duration? Wtf?

Molt

 

- make molt explode when miasma is cast in the radius like before. 

Toxic Lash

 

- Bring back the energy gain when killing a spore infected enemy while Toxic Lash is active.

I don't see why this is a bad thing... It allows Saryn to run a lower efficiency build better...

Miasma

 

- Deal extra damage when enemies are toxin proc'd as well. Saryn is the kind of virulent and DOT frame. Naturally, this should deal extra damage to enemies with DOT toxin
- Miasma explodes Molt (like it used to) and deals extra damage.

 

CONCLUSION

It feels bad when everyone thinks that Saryn 2.0 was bad. Saryn 2.0 had way more synergy and was much harder to setup and play. Now, it is so effortless and boring. Please Bring back some key synergies that make Saryn what she is! Well, you've made it to the end of this thread. Thank you for everyone who read this thread.

Edited August 27, 2018 by -Signs-
Revisions

[Spartan336]

Wait... People play Saryn for her abilities? 

[Signs]

1 minute ago, Spartan336 said:

Wait... People play Saryn for her abilities? 

who knows? many saryn players now only know the 1 button. Just like loki players and the 2 button.

[Spartan336]

2 minutes ago, -Signs- said:

who knows? many saryn players now only know the 1 button. Just like loki players and the 2 button.

I actually played her long before her rework. I hardly ever used spores and used 4 and 2 the most with a bit of 3 in there for my melee. 2 to distract, 4 for a moderate AoE/Stun when I needed it, and 3 when I take my melee out and remember to cast it. She's much more ninja-like than people give her credit for. 

EDIT: But now all that has been amplified with the speed buff on 2, and I actually use spores sometimes now to, so I say yay. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Spartan336

[Andaius]

It strange for me. I'm sorta for and sorta against how she's working now. Corrosive is the better damage type when comparing it to toxin vs all enemy types. Spore was made much much easier to use compared to the buggy old toxin spores. Over all I think they did a good job of making her easier to use while keeping her strong.  While keeping the general synergies of her abilities.

Her new spores doesn't make for lazy play, as you mange to manage them well if you want to keep up a good stack bonus. Other wise you'll spend along time starting over if you make a mistake and let infected stacking stop. It also is self balancing as if you get too strong it will burn itself out and you'll loose stacks.

[ArchXDiablo]

As a Nidus main, in endless runs I despise a good Saryn. Everything is dying before I get to use my skills to build stacks, let alone use my weapons. At which point, I sit comfy and do nothing. If they dare complain, welp, what do you want me to do when everything is dying before I get to it? I'm not gonna play a "catch the mob alive" ping pong game. The only way to ruin Saryn is to limit her ability to spread her spores by annihilating enemies before she gets to them, and the easiest frame for that is Mesa imho. 

[Signs]

23 minutes ago, Andaius said:

Her new spores doesn't make for lazy play. 

I think it's lazy. I can just press 1 on a level 9999 nox, spread it, go somewhere safe, and then go get some food, take a shower, go to the bathroom, manage my taxes. Come back hours later to find the enemies still taking damage. If that's not lazy idk what is. Just my opinion though.

[Signs]

31 minutes ago, Spartan336 said:

I actually played her long before her rework. I hardly ever used spores and used 4 and 2 the most with a bit of 3 in there for my melee. 2 to distract, 4 for a moderate AoE/Stun when I needed it, and 3 when I take my melee out and remember to cast it. She's much more ninja-like than people give her credit for. 

EDIT: But now all that has been amplified with the speed buff on 2, and I actually use spores sometimes now to, so I say yay. 

Are you referring to saryn 1 or saryn 2? 

[Spartan336]

5 minutes ago, -Signs- said:

Are you referring to saryn 1 or saryn 2? 

Both. I still play her like this. Saryn 2 just amplified my playstyle. 

[GPrime96]

17 minutes ago, ArchXDiablo said:

The only way to ruin Saryn is to limit her ability to spread her spores by annihilating enemies before she gets to them

If she be in a Squad full of Maiming Strike Atterax Players, she would have this issue. Saryn is about as Selfish as Tanks in this game.

[(XBOX)RPColten]

There are great things about new Saryn (Removal of Spore+Molt, Toxic Lash applied to primary/secondary, Molt removing status effects and being invulnerable for a short moment), and there are not so great things about new Saryn (Escalating damage on a debuff attack, no more toxin proc spread mechanics, no more Molt+Miasma damage stacking mechanic).

Both yay and nay on new Saryn. It feels like her kit was gutted and replaced with slightly similar but not the same guts. I'm still confused as to why they reworked her again in the first place. Seems like just fixing the toxin-spread mechanic not working would have been just perfect, maybe removing the Molt+Spore thing as well.

You make some good points OP.

[GPrime96]

Molt is the only ability in her kit so far that’s wierd to use. I only see pretty good use of it with Regenerative Molt but without that Augment, it would only work as Aggro because you would spend most of your time using 1, 3, and 4 to do the killing unlike 2.0 Saryn because with that one, you can use 2 with 1 , 3 with 1 on 2, or 2 , 1 and 4. Conpare to Old Saryn, New Saryn is a lot less Complex.

[felixsylvaris]

I think most important is setting hard cap of spores damage much lower. Maybe 1000, maybe lower.

However, bring back, add some form of damage when spores popped for everyone. Popping spores could be fun for everyone, even if it is just copy of Banshee weak points.