Elite Onslaught is Pointless Boredom Because of Saryn

[Jalen1104]

1 hour ago, miomima said:

Look how angry we are. Equinox maim is next on the list (everyone who advocate Saryn gives equinox as example tho 😄 ) . And Saryn is not realy underwhelming on capture due to speed buff from molt (so mini volt, and with volt in team she is even faster)

She's out sped by nezha, volt, zepher, and especially a good nova. Get your facts straight and quit complaining about damage frames doing damage. Again get gud

[Hellmaker2004]

2 hours ago, miomima said:

ember halving their hp and striping their armor in process and dealing even more damage with spores? ember have more than 1100 hp with more than 700 armor?

on video there was 95% str i gues, umbral mods was not maxed, and i still have 1-2 mods slots left due to no forma saryn.

Yeah 95% Power Strenght checks out, the break point would have been at 93.548387096% Power strenght.

And now you are comparing a Apple with a Orange, i never said Ember have Saryns HP. Nor her utility. The main reason for this is that Ember is not Saryn.
Ember have other strenght that could be brought up and aksed why Saryn does not have those but to not get stuck in a terrible loop of why does X not have Y lets move on.
 

It is true that Saryn is striping armor. But this is tied to both spore amount, and also Power Strenght. And at 0.95% Power strenght you would only have 0.5*0.95=0.475 chance per spore.
This could be averaged out to 0.475*3 = 1.425 corrosive proc per second. Now on that specific foe you so demonstrated a video on, Corrupt Lancer that is. They have 4807,74 Alloy armor, and it would take you roughly ~29.46 proc's to strip there armor. So it would take you on average 29.46/1.425 = 20.67 seconds to strip there armor. Not really that effective is it, nor does it goe under the oneshot territory.

 

Now Spore damage is also tied to Power Strenght, now i have no doubt that you could come up with a bette build in time, even when you use your current mods. However to showcase how poor damage you are currently doing we will use your current values as well. 

So your spore only have a initial damage of 9.5, and gaining  maximum of 19 damage per second, this against a foe that in this case have 13 898 HP. 

 

So let us see how long it would take you to kill those mobs, we are going to ignore armor for now since OH BOY, does that become complicated when adding that she also removes armor, so for simplicty the mob will have zero armor from the start. Now we know that those mobs have 

 

13898,4HP, we can halve that due to viral so in reality they have 13898/2 = 6949 HP i also removed the 0.4 since i assume the game already round that away.
And if we insert your current values at your power strenght of 95% we get ......... oh jesus this was complicated.

6949 - 570(x) - 9.5(x) - 19 [(x(x-1))/(2)] = 0

Where X end up being 10.39, this is the equivilant to how many event's are needed to kill, and since we know each event is at a seconds interval it is safe to assume 10.39 seconds needed to pass with permanent spore and Miasma.

This is far from what i would call a oneshot. Now it is true that everytime Spore get applied to a mob the number will be different, even tough some values will be the same.
Such as

570, would stay the same. This is Miasma damage per second of foes inflicted by spore at 95% Power Strenght.
19, would stay the same. This is the added maximum value spore will get each second at 95% Power Strenght.

It is also important to note that the above mentioned example is against a mob with zero armor, this is not going to be the case unless you run 4x Corrosive projection. And altough Saryn does strip armor it is a bit to complicated and excessive to add into the formula altough it is safe to say this is going to add to kill timers.

 

Also important for people who still are unaware but Spore will decay if no targets have spore up.
 

Spoiler

• When zero infected remains, Spores' current damage per second is instantly reduced by 20% then decays at 10% of the new total every 0.5 seconds until it reaches the initial damage amount. Damage decay stops when at least one enemy is infected by Spores.
  • Reset decay is inversely affected by Ability Strength (e.g., more strength reduces amount consumed.)
  • Damage decay rate is inversely affected by Ability Duration (e.g., more duration reduces amount of damage decay per half second.)
  • Nullifying effects (such as entering Sanctuary Onslaught Data-Conduits) increases the decay rate to 30%per half second.
  • Damage decay interval is not affected by mods.
• Current damage per second is visibly subtracted from the meter whilst a red flashing "decaying" warning message replaces the counter for number of infected enemies.
• The infection meter disappears when it reaches the initial damage amount.

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Hellmaker2004
Honorable mention to a friend who assisted me with the math. It was a bit above my head.

[miomima]

1 час назад, Peter сказал:

Recording a video of perma stun in simulacrum is easy, even Volt can do this, no, wait! you only have one normal volt and it probably was only used for speed.

You probbly should check it twice before insult other people.

[Hellmaker2004]

The worse contender to that Video is that it no way represent a real scenario.

He is using a controled enviroment. With no respawns, one type of enemy all sharing the same Skeletal Animation set and even there he failed to provide a stunlock, will i say they are not stunned the majorite of time? No, they are indeed stunned the majority of the time.

But if he did play her in a live case he would know that Miasma will cause units to be immune to the stun effect if the damage aspect still lingers.
But you know, lets show a controled example wtih no data and provide that as proof.

[MudShadow]

I've only seen her be an issue in elite onslaught. In that game mode she is too strong and will give the rest of the team's pride a brusing.

In defense or mobile defense she is still strong. But I have kept up with Saryn's in defense with other frames.

In all other game modes she seems balanced.

 

I don't think she deserves a nerf based on this. That is the same as nerfing Lanka or Volt because they're optimal for hunting Eidolons.

Edited September 9, 2018 by MudShadow

[GPrime96]

On 2018-09-06 at 8:54 PM, miomima said:

Yep, that from 0 stacks, casting spore 3 times and then shoting 3 times with 3rd ability active. Now imagine endless survival when there always some enemies to spread spores

There was one run with Saryn in Ani, Void where the enemies was at lvl 200+ with my Atterax and lvl 210+ Corrupted Heavy Gunners? She’s a joke to Saryn because when i spread my Spores to her, cast miasma, and used my Atterax on her with the Toxic Lash buff, she died like she’s a lvl 40. She’s pretty insane when you compare to other frames like Equinox and Ember.

[Peter]

11 minutes ago, VPrime96 said:

There was one run with Saryn in Ani, Void where the enemies was at lvl 200+ with my Atterax and lvl 210+ Corrupted Heavy Gunners? She’s a joke to Saryn because when i spread my Spores to her, cast miasma, and used my Atterax on her with the Toxic Lash buff, she died like she’s a lvl 40. She’s pretty insane when you compare to other frames like Equinox and Ember.

Until you find a nullifier with an entire escort lvl 200+

The 3 of it has always been insane with melee, the difference is that now you cause a corrosive burst with the 1, I just do not know if it is deserves a nerf since its damage per second is relatively low and can be mitigated by nullifiers, just as it is irrelevant against corpus and most infested.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Peter

[GPrime96]

1 minute ago, Peter said:

Until you find a nullifier with an entire escort lvl 200+

The 3 of it has always been insane with melee, the difference is that now you cause a corrosive burst with the 1, I just do not know if it is nerfable since its damage per second is relatively low and can be mitigated by nullifiers, just as it is irrelevant against corpus.

I normally don’t care about Corpus because the enemies in that faction are Squishies compare to a Corrupted or Grineer Heavy Gunners and Bombards because of the messed up Armor Scaling. But she can always melee a Nuillifier and cast Toxic Lash again since Nullies are very easy to kill.

[Peter]

7 minutes ago, VPrime96 said:

I normally don’t care about Corpus because the enemies in that faction are Squishies compare to a Corrupted or Grineer Heavy Gunners and Bombards because of the messed up Armor Scaling. But she can always melee a Nuillifier and cast Toxic Lash again since Nullies are very easy to kill.

I understand you, is that I think this will not be possible after melee 3.0, is exactly what they are trying to remove from the game, fast and ranged sliding attacks with supernatural critical damage, this with Saryn's buff and you have the perfect melee weapon.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Peter

[schilds]

Coincidentally ran into both a Volt and Equinox in ESO with my Saryn. This is not proof - it's just one sample, and who knows if the Volt or Equinox had decent builds - but this is typical of what happens when I take Saryn in:

Spoiler

 

All her abilities are useful (though I didn't use Molt in that video) and she has an active playstyle. The issue is really just damage.

Edited September 9, 2018 by schilds

[miomima]

1 час назад, Peter сказал:

Do not change the subject, we are waiting for the video stating everything you said so far.

And I'm sure we will not be disappointed, because, according to everything you said so far, Saryn is an armored megazord capable of killing everything around you with a single skill.

i cant realy play with recording on, fps frops at times. can post some screenshots at max. Without any preparations, no forma build, no specters, no camping (rofl, who would believe). Using mostly zakti to kill nullifiers. Problems was only where there is nullifiers stacked with ancients, so i just use molt and kill them with melee. 

Спойлер

https://imgur.com/a/wMlUjAi

lanka boys oneshot me 2 times, on like lvl 110 +\-10. (without melee off ofc, while i just jumping around doing nothing)

If i would go another time i would probbly build zakti for radiaion (it was full gas), or pick another radiation procing weapon.

Edited September 9, 2018 by miomima

[Peter]

8 minutes ago, miomima said:

i cant realy play with recording on, fps frops at times. can post some screenshots at max. Without any preparations, no forma build, no specters, no camping (rofl, who would believe). Using mostly zakti to kill nullifiers. Problems was only where there is nullifiers stacked with ancients, so i just use molt and kill them with melee. 

  Reveal hidden contents

https://imgur.com/a/wMlUjAi

lanka boys oneshot me 2 times, on like lvl 110 +\-10. (without melee off ofc, while i just jumping around doing nothing)

If i would go another time i would probbly build zakti for radiaion (it was full gas), or pick another radiation procing weapon.

I will never know if you used ancient, but if you did not use congratulations.

[miomima]

54 минуты назад, schilds сказал:

Coincidentally ran into both a Volt and Equinox in ESO with my Saryn. This is not proof - it's just one sample, and who knows if the Volt or Equinox had decent builds - but this is typical of what happens when I take Saryn in:

  Показать контент

 

All her abilities are useful (though I didn't use Molt in that video) and she has an active playstyle. The issue is really just damage.

even this damage they deal only because Saryn striping armor and storing damage for equinox.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

17 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

This really demonstrates the futility of this kind of "nerf x" thread in a roundabout way. It lacks awareness of the greater game. It has no cohesive vision. It's ignorant and directionless.

Did you know you can literally AFK farm interception with one or two Rhinos running a world stomp build? Not a lot of people do know that, despite the fact it's actually super on meta right now given where the vaulted relics are to be had.

Everyone knows Saryn, though. And so we gripe about Saryn, and not Rhino, who can basically stop anything from happening whatsoever over long periods of time.

So we nerf Saryn into trash, specifically because of ESO, trigger another Vivergate, piss off a large portion of people who've been playing her since before the recent changes, causing them to crush their hipster glasses in anger... ...And then what? Oh, now Equinox is the problem. Okay, we nerf equinox too. In fact, let's nerf everyone who can do buckets of damage, Mesa and Volt are next on the butcher's block.

Well guess what, now now we have to finally talk about Rhino. We killed all the high damage frames, so now everyone's playing crowd control and tanks. Diversity of frames is now in the toilet, so yeah, let's nerf him and a bunch of other crap, surely that'll fix the problem. Rhino's first since he also does good damage and right now there's nothing else that looks like a nail to the man with the hammer. Y'know, come to think of it, that's not quite right: Atlas plays a bit like Memeing Strike, and even if he can't bring an entire map to a halt with an alternate build, anything that looks like memeing strike must obviously be satan incarnate, so let's go ahead and trash his 1. He's really tanky too, let's nerf his rubble gain.

Oops, we accidentally nerfed Ivara! Turns out she can do the exact same thing as Rhino by camping whatever point that bottlenecks with a high range build, forcing people to keep going over to her point and killing all the enemies she's put to sleep. Because DEAR GOD someone has to WALK ACROSS THE MAP! What a TRAVESTY! Equinox gets hit again as collateral, this time before people even realize they can also do this and thus cause the frame to become meta again. This of course kills the classic focus farm, because now three of the frames that are good at it have been dumpstered.

And what happens after that? Oh right, we now have to nerf Vauban. "VAUBAN YOU SAY!?" Yes, Vauban. What do you think is going to be next after you take an axe to anything that can deal lots of damage? We're already nerfing crowd control because it's been FotM, and once all the good frames have been "balanced" guess what's left? The inflexible specialists.

Oh, well, would you look at that. People are just ignoring their frames and leaning on their guns now? Mein gott, how dare people find fun after we trashed their precious warframes! Better nerf all the guns. Airsoft for everyone!

Also, we nerf Trinity, just for tradition's sake.

Exactly .

The thing most nerf ''x'' threads fail to identify is when you have all Warframes most meta weapons meta rivens plus 100 made forma and maxxed arcanes , primed mods etc this then means a few seconds pause before adjusting another build and saying what nerf? I.E nerf my rhino build and a few seconds later i run a maxxed mirage build either prism or hom.

To vets threads like this are just lol i.E. Tonkor nerf aaand boom run tigris prime arca plasmor lenz etc.

 

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

4 hours ago, miomima said:

meybe i just have too much time on Nyx? ehh?(maybe you should too, to notice that drastic difference) I dont have that much messeges to "spend less time in the Forum". And "suggesting something without even knowing" is kinda out of nowhere.

That saryn video has enemy under level 100 and thats sortie 3 easy for most vets with any frame 

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

In what level exactly? With Nidus i can still oneshot level 155s. On very low levels Miasma can do oneshot, i give you that. But so can multiple other things such as WoF, Soundquake, Discharge, or even just an Ignis spraying around. On higher levels, Miasma requires DoTs to tick down. In which enemies can still get killed by other sources. Or it simply doesn't oneshot should there be tougher enemies. Besides, majority of Saryn complaints stem from ESO and because of "Spore scaling into infinity!". You can't even spam Miasma in ESO.

Just went into ESO again to see how things go and i've seen my Saryn getting LOTS of kills. But after some time! Due to her long range spreading nature, most of the kills come from enemies far away due to spores already having reached high damage at this point paired with miasma, i occasionally get some huge kill spikes. But nothing that could make me say: "Wew, i barely see enemies anymore how are others supposed to do anything?".

Then i try Nidus and while i couldn't reach enemies behind walls and stuff, every enemy in the same room gets clumped together and i just have to release my cannon.

  Hide contents

^that is a oneshot.

So once again all it boils down to me is people entering with whatever very unsuited gear for onslaught and then expecting to get many kills against someone who goes in with a DPS setup. Should you go in with proper weapons or a frame that can deal with hordes, you shouldn't have any problems in getting your own food. Unless you don't even try.

So you're saying a top-decked out player having spent lots of hours and resources to create their ultimate build, is actually pretty potent? You don't say... Besides, i don't see what that permastun has anything to do about the Saryn complaints being about kills. Not even going to mention how ineffective and expensive this is compared to other CC options...

Exactly a maxxed build is boom baby easy kills even at sortie 3 level 100 enemy 

[miomima]

5 минут назад, (PS4)aiptekfanboy сказал:

That saryn video has enemy under level 100 and thats sortie 3 easy for most vets with any frame 

Its easy to kill them 1 by 1 with weapons, but not with volt discharge.

[IceColdHawk]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

Exactly a maxxed build is boom baby easy kills even at sortie 3 level 100 enemy 

But some people like to go in with a bow (not Lenz), slow RoF secondary and a short ranged melee and expect to keep up with kills. Isn't it unfair that they always get the short end of the stick? 🤪

[DatDarkOne]

18 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

This really demonstrates the futility of this kind of "nerf x" thread in a roundabout way. It lacks awareness of the greater game. It has no cohesive vision. It's ignorant and directionless.

Did you know you can literally AFK farm interception with one or two Rhinos running a world stomp build? Not a lot of people do know that, despite the fact it's actually super on meta right now given where the vaulted relics are to be had.

Everyone knows Saryn, though. And so we gripe about Saryn, and not Rhino, who can basically stop anything from happening whatsoever over long periods of time.

So we nerf Saryn into trash, specifically because of ESO, trigger another Vivergate, piss off a large portion of people who've been playing her since before the recent changes, causing them to crush their hipster glasses in anger... ...And then what? Oh, now Equinox is the problem. Okay, we nerf equinox too. In fact, let's nerf everyone who can do buckets of damage, Mesa and Volt are next on the butcher's block.

Well guess what, now now we have to finally talk about Rhino. We killed all the high damage frames, so now everyone's playing crowd control and tanks. Diversity of frames is now in the toilet, so yeah, let's nerf him and a bunch of other crap, surely that'll fix the problem. Rhino's first since he also does good damage and right now there's nothing else that looks like a nail to the man with the hammer. Y'know, come to think of it, that's not quite right: Atlas plays a bit like Memeing Strike, and even if he can't bring an entire map to a halt with an alternate build, anything that looks like memeing strike must obviously be satan incarnate, so let's go ahead and trash his 1. He's really tanky too, let's nerf his rubble gain.

Oops, we accidentally nerfed Ivara! Turns out she can do the exact same thing as Rhino by camping whatever point that bottlenecks with a high range build, forcing people to keep going over to her point and killing all the enemies she's put to sleep. Because DEAR GOD someone has to WALK ACROSS THE MAP! What a TRAVESTY! Equinox gets hit again as collateral, this time before people even realize they can also do this and thus cause the frame to become meta again. This of course kills the classic focus farm, because now three of the frames that are good at it have been dumpstered.

And what happens after that? Oh right, we now have to nerf Vauban. "VAUBAN YOU SAY!?" Yes, Vauban. What do you think is going to be next after you take an axe to anything that can deal lots of damage? We're already nerfing crowd control because it's been FotM, and once all the good frames have been "balanced" guess what's left? The inflexible specialists.

Oh, well, would you look at that. People are just ignoring their frames and leaning on their guns now? Mein gott, how dare people find fun after we trashed their precious warframes! Better nerf all the guns. Airsoft for everyone!

Also, we nerf Trinity, just for tradition's sake.

This fine Tenno gets it, and understands the larger picture.  

[schilds]

The argument that nerfing Saryn will mean people just move to other frames, and start DE down the slippery slope (a type logical fallacy, in any case) of nerfing one thing after another might be reasonable, except that a reduction of about 20% to 40% in average spore damage and Saryn would *still* be a (if not the) top frame for aoe, and eso in particular, and people will still use her.

 

As for the argument about cc, interception and mobile defence, that argument is complete nonsense. As time based game modes, there is nothing that reduces the time taken over any set of random frames, as long as they're used by competent players that can hold the objective(s). That's entirely different to the discussion of dps/aoe frames in game modes that depend directly on enemies killed. 

[DatDarkOne]

I find it interesting that before ESO came out, people were complaining about Saryn being to complicated to use or even saying that she was weak.  ESO drops and now we got "Nerf Saryn NOW!" topics.  

LMAO.  The forum is so fickle.  

[IceColdHawk]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I find it interesting that before ESO came out, people were complaining about Saryn being to complicated to use or even saying that she was weak.  ESO drops and now we got "Nerf Saryn NOW!" topics.  

LMAO.  The forum is so fickle.  

It's almost as if Saryn isn't the problem.

[schilds]

6 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I find it interesting that before ESO came out, people were complaining about Saryn being to complicated to use or even saying that she was weak.  ESO drops and now we got "Nerf Saryn NOW!" topics.  

LMAO.  The forum is so fickle.  

You missed the part where her mechanics were changed. This feedback is regarding the changes to her kit, not ESO. ESO just makes things really obvious. 

 

(She was never weak, in any case, if people said that, it's because they couldn't figure out how to use her)

[DatDarkOne]

Just now, IceColdHawk said:

It's almost as if Saryn isn't the problem.

You noticed it also.  😀 

[schilds]

You have both missed that she was reworked.