Elite Onslaught is Pointless Boredom Because of Saryn

[-.SP.-G43riel]

23 minutes ago, Peter said:

That thread still exists? holy...

right? they simply don't let the thread die, over 45 pages already?
i'm surprised it also wasn't locked out yet

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, TheKazz91 said:

I will saybout of the ones you mentioned combus are BS because they can drop your energy with no warning and it is unavoidable out side of out right killing them before they get close enough to do that which is bad design IMO.

Not bad design at all if you realize that they are there to punish invisible frames that rush and don't pay attention.  They are the only Corpus enemies I watch out for as a solo Ivara.  😄  

[Urlan]

3 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I would literally laugh my arse of if this was to really happen.  The levels of salt from the forums alone would be massive.  

I say this because there is already an enemy type that ignores both Saryn's and Equinox's powers.  Nullifiers and we already know how much the forums complained about them.  LOL

I myself find enemies like Nullifiers, Nox, Combus, Bursa, etc to be interesting enemies.  

Its not like Corrosive damage is the 'meta' of removing armor anyway. Most teams use Corrosive Projection for a reason. I would agree that Nullies and comba are intended to be annoying for ability users, though to be fair, I find that most ability users are too fragile to be in the face at ranges that those units excel at.

[Tora.Prime]

Premade a squad without saryn, problem solved

[Melanholic7]

I hope topic starter stop playing this game. Cause its not cool to have in community such people. I mean - its ok to whine about Saryn. But look - one of his “super cool ideas” - nerf range of all abilities all frames. So,just cause of one weak player everyone shouldnt have fun in game,lol. Ridiculous. No fun allowed,it seems... I can recommend TS go play Destiny, so he will have no fun like he wants. 

[Peter]

I REALLY want to know why this thread is still opened.

[MechaKnight]

Saryn feels overpowered because Overextended is overpowered. Every damage-dealing frame that felt overpowered and got nerfed for it used Overextended in their builds.

Warframe is a very unique game that allows players to modify ability stats with amounts and versatility rarely seen in other games, thus creating unique problems for the rare situations in games that are more common in Warframe.

In Warframe we can modify abilities and melee weapons to have more range. This brings about balance issues when one player option creates synergies with other player options to an excessive degree.

For example, Overextended, which I call the nerf bringer. This mod has been the core reason for frame ability rebalances for years since it was released. Frames rebalanced around this mod include but are not limited to: Ash, Banshee, Ember, Excalibur, Mag, Mesa, Mirage, Nova, Nyx, Oberon, Saryn, Trinity, Vauban, and Volt. For these mentioned frames throughout the years, a large-range radial ability has been altered (usually nerfed), although occasionally later the ability is buffed. This is usually the case when said frame has an ability that damages or stuns in a large area to the degree that it deletes or disables enemies long before they come close to players. This is the core cause of the Vivergate issues and trial attempts with line-of-sight range modification and improved enemy spawn algorithms. This is also the cause for defense and interception map reworks.

You can see this effect within the current standing meta-game. For radial area damage dealing competition amongst frames, there are Equinox, Mesa, Volt, and Saryn. Out of these 4 frames, 3 of them have their area-damage builds centralized around Overextended, while Mesa has an exceptionally large unmodifiable range but great damage and status potential. For buff and stun support we have Banshee and Octavia, with builds both centralized around Overextended for their usual build. For healers we have Harrow, Oberon, and Trinity. 2 of these frames have their range bound by affinity range rather than the ability range stat, and Oberon's healing support is unbound by range, while initiating his armor support requires teammates to stand on Hallowed Ground, which is increased by range stat, thus this becomes easier/better with this stat.

Overextended centralizes these builds by attracting players to use the mod for the "good builds." If you're not using this mod, your build just doesn't work so well for the same goal.

I would consider Overextended to be an item which overcentralizes builds, but I'm not satisfied with the usual end result of this issue in most Warframe circumstances. Rather than rebalance this one mod, the aforementioned long list of frames I mentioned had various tweaks to address their range, and future added frame abilities are built to avoid excessive range effect like Revenant's Danse Macabre. It would make more sense to buff all warframe abilities by 10% to 15% larger, and rebalance Overextended to be less extreme; that single range mod adds as much range as the other 3 mods combined. The end result of that approach is all frame builds with or without range mods would have more range, except for builds with Overextended which would be less effective than pre-rework conditions. The devs usually chose to nerf ability range, but all that did was turn Overextended from a mandatory mod to break the game to a mandatory mod to have the frame perform adequately. Meanwhile Melee 3.0 aims to rework how melee range mods work completely thanks to the overcentralized melee spin builds.

Warframe is a unique game that creates unique problems, and as such in needs to create unique solutions.

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, MechaKnight said:

Saryn feels overpowered because Overextended is overpowered. Every damage-dealing frame that felt overpowered and got nerfed for it used Overextended in their builds.

You know, this is an interesting observation.  I like how you got to the root of the issue and provided examples which support it.  While I don't really use Overextended in builds because I don't like how it ganks power strength.  That's me though, and not a representation of how most build their frames.  Only frame I do use it on is Speed Nova.  

But anyway, I really like your synopsis of the problem.  Kudos fellow Tenno.   

[MechaKnight]

Overextended should be changed to a more balanced set of stats like +35% range -15% strength, so instead of losing 2 Intensify mods for 2 Stretch mods you lose half of an Intensify for about Stretch mod.

The way I envisioned a range overhaul, all warframe abilities would have their ranges increased by 12%, and the range mods would become 30/35/25/15 mounted on a 1.12 base instead of the current 45/90/30/15 mounted on a 1.00 base. The result: all frame builds would actually have greater range than before, but builds with overextended would have less range than before.

The numbers are tentative but the plan seems solid: increase overall player ranges, reduce the importance of range mods, and decrease Overextended so it is no longer so overwhelmingly disruptive. While I'm at it, let's add a mod called "Exhausted Prowess" that will add +40% efficiency in exchange for -45% strength, which will give players another way to decrease strength in exchange for another path towards more efficiency. The efficiency stat is currently capped, but this is a method to enable classic negative-strength builds.

Of course players would meta-game, but that's only because they want to do that. It's more stressful to coordinate 4 players than to dominate a map single-handedly. People play the way they want, and most people wouldn't want to do that. The same people who would bring 4 nuke frames to camp all 4 corners are the same people who would bring 4 Excalibur Umbra frames with rivened Khom and roost them into the rafters of the Index while they hide in operator mode. The goal is to promote fun and fix a problem as effectively as possible. The meta-game can still exist and meta-play is still allowed, but heavily disruptive outliers will be smoothed out and warframes previously nerfed in the circumstances of the disruptive mod could be buffed to be great all-around instead of only great with Overextended.

That said, imagine if every warframe got more range to use regardless of his build? The only loss is having less range with Overextended on.

Edited October 9, 2018 by MechaKnight

[MechaKnight]

Edited above post due to odd duplicate issue. Reload page.

Edited October 9, 2018 by MechaKnight