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Dev Workshop: Nezha Revisited

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2 minutes ago, gehbeh said:

The way I see it these changes to Warding Halo are a straight nerf (with the exception of the invulnerability period at the end for safe recasting) and it was intended to be that way. On one hand, yes his augment will be less effective now, but which would you rather have;

If that's how it's gonna be, I'd rather have Gara's SplinterStorm, that simple.

Edited by Jicematoro

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the whole rework sounds great.

it seems the change on his 3 is to allow him scale further and perhaps even into end-game, however his 1,2 and 4 will still end up doing insignificant amount of dmg by then. there's a small level range where he can get damaged just enough to lose the shield for additional armor buff while still doing significant damage.

he'll still be a starchart mini-flash, but just with a Mesa's 3 instead (in which case you can really just use mesa.. whose 2(actually her 4) potentially prevents more damage for her team than Nezha. Mesa's a god, fight me.)

Anyway, Nezha seems to be more interactive, which is much better than the current state, and probably more fun.

 

PS: why not focus on the focus tree for some stats/number buffs for scaling (look at path of exile)? it's an extremely passive element of the game anyway, leaving more room to work on the fun portion of any frame's gameplay. right now it's either a mega energy siphon, or a fast travel for people to use in POE so they can spend less time in POE.

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10 hours ago, Robert_Cop_2 said:

Seems good overall, maybe you could make firewalker sprint boost scale with strength or add a bullet jump buff?

Also remove the enemy cap based on strength from divine spears, why is it even there? Stomp doesn't have this problem and Rhino can buff himself for more damage, all of this with better range.

god no, max str speed is trouble enough on volt, i don't need whiplash on nezha too

and better yet they can just remove the entire skill, not like it meshes with his playstyle very well to begin with. stomp 2.0 need not be.

Edited by Cubewano

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Question, will any of his Augments be changed to fit? The Chakram Augment we have right now will be pretty outdated, and the Halo Augment might be power crept (Unless allies who have the Halo buff also get the AoE Heat).

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Hope the 3rd skill augment Safeguard could be revisited too,cause if it remains its current effect,then after the rework it would be:providing 45% dmg reduction for your teamates,and as we all know,45%=0 in this game :/

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I am very impressed with the proposed changes. Looking at how his kit has changed as a whole I think this will make for some powerful and engaging Nehza gameplay. 

As for the haters out there, I recommend you listen to some of the positive feedback here. These changes are almost a straight buff in every way.  Consider this:

People complain that health orbs are weak healing, and thats true if you only only take into account amount healed when ONE enemy is affected in a controlled environment. However, this argument ignores the multitude of advantages these changes to this ability brings in a real battle. 1.) The ability usually bounces in a way that multiple enemies are often affected. 2.) A charged shot into a crowd of enemies will result in multiple health orb drops. 3.) Health orbs can be picked up at anytime by anyone as needed. You don't need to wait until the perfect opportunity to cast it, you can just litter the battlefield with health orbs. 4.) There exists mods, passives, and arcanes that synergize splendidly with health orb pick ups and Nehza and her squad can take full advantage of that. 5.) Increased energy drops and being able to cast without restricting your movements means there's no reason why you should not be casting this ability frequently. 

Same can be said for Warding Halo. If you focus ONLY on the fact that the protection has dropped from 100% to 90% then yes it looks like a nerf. But many skilled players will argue getting hurt helps. Firstly, I have used Gara's Splinter Storm with 130+ power strength and the damage mitigation on it is so high I was practically invulnerable. At no point did I say to myself "I need 100% invulnerability or I am going to die". And I actively put myself in harm's way to test it, and let me tell you it was not easy to die. As for the players who are saying it's not comparable because Splinter Storm deals thousands of damage and can be cast on others, I say you are missing the point. The OP never said Warding Halo is exactly like Splinter Storm now. Read the sentence from start to finish and in context. They merely meant the damage mitigation is comparable. At any rate, as others have said, being able to get hurt is a blessing in disguise. Getting damaged lets you take advantage of mods and arcane enhancements you previously couldn't use. Pair that with the fact that heath orbs will be plentiful now and max health got a boost, and the only way you'll die while casting Warding Halo is through a nullifier sneaking up on you or sheer stupidity. As for players asking for something akin to Rhino's iron shrapnel and increased invulnerability values, 1.) Asking for iron shrapnel completely ignored the stated change that Nehza will be invulnerable for a short time after Warding Halo dispels, and during the casting animation. This means it is now possible to have protection up 100% of the time which is better than iron shrapnel because with that augment there is still a brief moment of vulnerability between casts (enough time to get one-shotted). Also 2.) If you love iron shrapnel so much, why not play ... oh I dunno...Rhino? Clearly DE is making an effort to add some diversity and depth to their Warframes and constantly asking to make Nehza skinny version of Rhino shows a profound lack of creative thought on your part. Honestly, If some of the folks in this forum had their way this game would have 10 reskins of Rhino in the roster.

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This update is truly disheartening to me as a Nezha main. 

I spent countless hours formaing Nezha for speed sprint + warding halo augment. This revamp that is so inclining toward duration that accounting it would spread him even thinner than jack of all trades, because taking away from ability strength mods to put duration mods on. It feels unfair like it's forcing people to play a certain way.

It feels unethical to force a player like this. I appreciate the company thinking it'll be a fun new way to enjoy things but for such a direction changer you can make a new character. I was expecting enhancements on Nezha, not a complete rework. It makes me feel like what's the point of playing if the game can make such unexpected drastic changes in the future. Especially when WF is such a time intensive investment. To be fair how about make Rhino take 90% with iron skin? It sounds wahwah whiney but I would definitely perma stop playing WF if Nezha was not 100%, I'm not saying this to give anyone an icky guilty feeling, it's just the truth of what would happen.

 

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YAY! you know its gonna be good at the end (with maybe a few changes in between ) when Pablo is on board 😄

With that being said i do like the general direction of the rework but i foresee some practical challenges during high level gameplay and some mechanics issues.

Lets go ability wise,

1) Firewalker:

I see no problems with making it duration based , but will it be recastable? also how will the augment work? i will need to change my builds but i can make peace with that,

suggestion:

Should be recastable while active,

Make the augment act like a reverse resonating quake i.e. it make the ability channeled so it can still be used as before and have the damage potential as before.

Some width buff and scaling with range would be welcome too.

2) Blazing Chakram:

Definitely better than the current ability features but i have concerns about the healing orbs (and only about the healing orbs , the rest of it is cool) ,

at low levels the healing orbs will be ok at best , or not needed as the enemies will usually not be able to do significant damage (with the halo active).

But at high levels a single health orb per enemy will not help , at high levels if you are damaged (and not dead) you will need a lot more than 25 health (ideally you should not get hit but you know how it goes)

Assuming the Augment will be changed as well , i see no way it can have the same functionality with these tweaks.

Suggestion:

make it have a duration based Health/s effect for more effectiveness like oberon (with stacking) or keep the healing pulse but increase its range.

Secondly (though not a major problem) if its damage could be affected by melee mods it would be great.

3) Warding Halo:

I like the "fire gating" but having 90% reduction with a health based ability feels odd and comparing it to other similar abilities (splinter storm / shatter shield) that are duration based i am not sure if it will be as tanky / survivable as expected. high level enemies can probably still destroy the halo fairly quickly.

Suggestion:

Have the 90% reduction apply to the health of the halo itself. this will make Nezha truly Tanky and should take away the problems of the halo being fragile at high levels but still let you use the extra mods / arcanes.

Having means to increase the health of the halo by killing burning enemies is a second alternative.

This will make Nezha its own frame and not a discount rhino/gara

Having its damage to enemies scale with damage absorbed would be nice too.

The augment will be less effective after these changes, would suggest to increase the numbers or make it an identical cast on team mates.

4) Divine Spears:

This is a CC ability which sometimes doesn't work (like a lot of other abilities) when there are ancients around (but that is a more core Warframes Ancient mechanic problem / feature?).

Assuming the Nezha slam dance animation is gone , it was one of the reasons i avoided using it , Reason: "heres me Sliding away and then Nezha starts dancing cause his ability duration expired, then the enemies give me their applause for the dance, and when i mean applause i mean bullets , which will take a chunk out of my halo health which could have been avoided or i am dead".

Suggestion:

not really needed , its fine as is (apart from the ancient issue) if the deactivation animation is gone.

 

I would like some opinions on these from other Nezha players as well.

 

 

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All that looks cool. I love busting Nezha out just for fun sometimes (one of my go-to frames for Infested missions), but I am wondering how the Fire Walker changes will impact its augment?

DE, please let Pablo rework Valkyr! Sure, she's still a stone killer, but most of her kit is pretty boring or barely used. Maybe she should be a look at the same time as 'Garuda' is being worked on, just to make sure they feel distinct from each other, but equally awesome?

Edited by (XB1)iDEATH

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Please make Nezha's damaging move damage scale better with higher-end content. Divine Spear is unusable for nuking in sorties, even when spammed with max +strength.

Make Blazing Chakram a stronger movement tool. As it has been, it's much too slow for the teleport to be used as a movement tool. Speeding up the animation helps, but I don't think that'd be enough. Maybe make the Chakram inherit your movement vector in the direction you're currently facing. An annoying thing with the teleport is that a lot of the time it simply won't work for whatever reason. It'd be nice if you could improve whatever logic governs it.

Also make Firewalker movement speed bonus scale with Ability Strength

Edited by golfdinger
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9 minutes ago, GODKINGER said:

This update is truly disheartening to me as a Nezha main. 

I spent countless hours formaing Nezha for speed sprint + warding halo augment. This revamp that is so inclining toward duration that accounting it would spread him even thinner than jack of all trades, because taking away from ability strength mods to put duration mods on. It feels unfair like it's forcing people to play a certain way.

It feels unethical to force a player like this. I appreciate the company thinking it'll be a fun new way to enjoy things but for such a direction changer you can make a new character. I was expecting enhancements on Nezha, not a complete rework. It makes me feel like what's the point of playing if the game can make such unexpected drastic changes in the future. Especially when WF is such a time intensive investment. To be fair how about make Rhino take 90% with iron skin? It sounds wahwah whiney but I would definitely perma stop playing WF if Nezha was not 100%, I'm not saying this to give anyone an icky guilty feeling, it's just the truth of what would happen.

 

You are disappointed, that is understandable and you have a right to be so with any change,

but please tell DE what you want to change instead of "i dont like this"

you mentioned you were expecting improvements ,

please suggest what you were expecting it might just be taken up (unlikely though).

Also to be fair , Rhino doesnt have healing abilities.

You may not want to sound whiney but thats exactly what it feels like.

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FIRE WALKER leave the skill streaming .... im and so few people play .. and a permanent recast generally will block it as a gaming warfram. Do not ruin what is now good

Edited by Kazaia

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Please [DE]Pablo, i want to see Vauban remaster made just like that! After deluxe skin is live his 1,2 abilities and no any ranged defense are damn bad. Could you do something to him?

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What about improving his firewalker damage? i love the skill,just needed a bit more dps hehe

Aside that,great rework in my opinion.

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Very excited about these changes. Nezha is my most played by a long shot! However, I'm just wondering how the changes (focusing on firewalker) will affect pyroclastic flow, as well as his other augments? Will those be getting changed in any way, shape, or form due to the new versions of his abilities?

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Improved targeting on Blazing Chakram? Warding Halo changed to DR so that his healing/armor actually have a purpose? Faster casting and a set Duration for Fire Walker? Gotta say, this sounds like a pretty solid rework overall, and I'm pretty much in agreement with the majority of the changes.

That said, I am a bit skeptical about changing the healing from his Chakram from a 225+ pulse to a measly 25 health orb. I suppose with the 90% DR from Warding Halo will allow that 25 health to go a long way for Nezha himself, though I feel like it won't be nearly as useful to your teammates. Can't complain otherwise though, good job DEvs.

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Can i just said this is one of the best rework so far ? And can we have Pablo do all the rework pls ( i mean no offense but he do REALLY REALLY good job ).

That aside this is exactly what Nehza need for not to be called a discount Rhino and now Rhino feel like an old frame ( poor Rhino ).

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18 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You are disappointed, that is understandable and you have a right to be so with any change,

but please tell DE what you want to change instead of "i dont like this"

you mentioned you were expecting improvements ,

please suggest what you were expecting it might just be taken up (unlikely though).

Also to be fair , Rhino doesnt have healing abilities.

You may not want to sound whiney but thats exactly what it feels like.

-as a consumer it's not my job to come up in a jiffy what I want enhanced (of course in my text I mentioned speed and warding halo strength so there's a giveaway in itself there), and I have contributed a LOT inputting my reaction coherently to their change they just surprise pushed on everyone.

"please suggest what you were expecting it might just be taken up (unlikely though)." your text in paranthesis is exactly why I didn't waste my precious free time thinking of something. Anything of viable value takes considerable time. My time is actually in a lot of demand and I have important obligations and duties which is why I'm not happy about rebuilding Nezha from scratch. 

-Nezha is already squishy as heck in sortie and really low ability damage even with max ability mods on, the warding halo augment was basically the only silver lining. Forcing you to compromise the strength and vit mods for duration is making him not even jack of all trades as he is infamously known for, it's making him like 5 of all trades.

"You may not want to sound whiney but thats exactly what it feels like." That's exactly why I myself pointed it out and acknowledged before anyone else did -as- a viewer's discretion, because I already knew it would come off that way, because there is just no other way to put it. It's just the restraints of communication. So you were unnecessarily confirming my rhetoric.

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I should add that overall with the rework so far this is a nerf to Nezha. Speaking from a teamplay perspective, Warding Halo with the augment is the only reason to ever run Nezha. While all these small buffs look cute in a vacuum, when compared to the capabilities of other much better support frames and abilities, all of Nezha's various healing and energy and damage zone gimmicks are still just those, gimmicks, and aren't remotely practical for anything more than messing around.

Edited by golfdinger
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12 hours ago, Grimm said:

you can tell when pablo reworks something. it gets a new ui element ahaha and it also come out pretty balanced for end game

+1

Escobar making things work, he is the Hephaestus of the Tenno. 

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Love the proposed changes to Nezha, will make him an amazingly fun frame to play.

On another note - On top of all that, Nezha’s sounds have been remastered, adding new auditory cues for important moments, like Blazing Chakrams returning to the player, or Warding Halos running out of health!

^ Can you PLEASE fix the Perla Skins MISSING "custom audio" sounds and the cassette placement bug.  8+ months now still broken.

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golfdinger is 100% right and a lot of other nezha mains have raised vital points that echoed my sentiment as well.

all of his dmg ability are super super weak on sortie and it's nice for him to get that finally addressed, but at a cost that breaks him?(the halo nerf)

on sortie with that 10% leakthrough is like going to nezha " omae wa mou shindeiru" and when he gets oneshotted , the other teammates won't be happy about getting Nezha on a their team.  how is he supposed to heal himself when he's already dead? not to mention when face to face with that void corrupted crewman who shoots like 1000 bullets in one second.

ps- I don't use arcanes and don't plan to, and neither do my close friends.

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35 minutes ago, GODKINGER said:

-as a consumer it's not my job to come up in a jiffy what I want enhanced (of course in my text I mentioned speed and warding halo strength so there's a giveaway in itself there), and I have contributed a LOT inputting my reaction coherently to their change they just surprise pushed on everyone.

"please suggest what you were expecting it might just be taken up (unlikely though)." your text in paranthesis is exactly why I didn't waste my precious free time thinking of something. Anything of viable value takes considerable time. My time is actually in a lot of demand and I have important obligations and duties which is why I'm not happy about rebuilding Nezha from scratch. 

-Nezha is already squishy as heck in sortie and really low ability damage even with max ability mods on, the warding halo augment was basically the only silver lining. Forcing you to compromise the strength and vit mods for duration is making him not even jack of all trades as he is infamously known for, it's making him like 5 of all trades.

"You may not want to sound whiney but thats exactly what it feels like." That's exactly why I myself pointed it out and acknowledged before anyone else did -as- a viewer's discretion, because I already knew it would come off that way, because there is just no other way to put it. It's just the restraints of communication. So you were unnecessarily confirming my rhetoric.

You do realise this is a "workshop" as in something that is still a work in progress they haven't Pushed anything yet, what are you even doing here if you are not going to contribute?

The change is coming what you can do is try and drive it in a direction that is acceptable to you.

But yes, you have no obligation to come up with ideas for DE ,

And i do know that we do not want to make new builds which will be different from our originals as it may (or not) cost more time and forma,

but as you yourself have pointed out that the frame is already squishy , so i am not sure if these changes are truly bad until we test them.

If you are going to quit because of changes then you will just miss out on the new mechanics,

DE may not take you suggestions , but they will definitely not know about them if you dont even tell them what they are.

you could have said " i like running full strength DR build , i only want it to be recastable on the halo to stay instead of waiting for it to end, the other improvements are fine"

but you didnt.

Edit:

Quoted person made additional points and much of my statement is now not true.

Edited by 0_The_F00l
additional inputs from quoted person.

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