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Dev Workshop: Nezha Revisited

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I'd like to reserve judgement until I try this. How much I like this is highly dependent on how long the base duration on the first ability is, whether I can modify chakram's damage buff with power strength or if it's like nova where it's basically x2 damage to a target no matter what, and how many mod slots I have to dedicate to re-synergizing warding halo with the new kit. I mean, it sounds good for health conversion and hunter adrenaline (Even though I REALLY think he should get an armor buff on top of a health buff with this change), but the duration thing to his first ability is ultimately a nerf to pyroclastic flow and the 90% damage thing is ultimately a nerf to Safeguard. Will the augments get a buff to accommodate the changes or are they just straight up being nerfed by this rework?

I always thought the way safeguard works was backwards, I felt like it should give 100% to allies and 50% to you if you really need a downside that bad, not the other way around.

Edited by WMan22

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Low health, low shields, 90% damage reduction...

RIP nezha, even at 95% mesa gets ripped to shreds when enemies start doing damage that actually matters.

Forcing the use other powers is not synergy, it's dependency. True synergy is something like how Mag's polarise and magnetise work together; this is just nerfing one power and then applying a bandaid to another to attempt to fill the gap the nerf leaves behind.

Nezha is now a discount oberon, gonna be a lot of fun watching them spamming chakram and spears just to stay alive.

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This sounds amazing! 

Cant wait to insta-buy the skin and get some forma in 😄

 

sidenote: please work your magic on Revenant. Currently his 4 is the only worthwhile ability. His 2 is nice, but doesn’t feel very consistent. You can’t really tell when you can cast 1 for free on enemies. 

His 1 is all but useless. Why would I use it on a single enemy when I could just use that energy for 4 instead? (Maybe it is good in high level missions, but that is pretty exclusive use. A group AOE. Would be better.) 

His 3 is super clunky. When in his 4 it’s nice, instant practically. That is how it should be by default. Using his 3 completely breaks the flow of combat due to a cast animation that is longer than the ability lasts if you go less than 100% duration. The animation itself is fine, but needs to be tweaked so it doesn’t physically cement you down when you do it. It should also move in the same direction you are traveling. If you are backpedaling, casting it should move you further back. 

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22 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

I don't think you can compare those 2. Rhino has zero to none healing abilities like Nezha will get

You can, Nezha has a 100% damage reduction ability with a set damage well to drawn from, so does Rhino. Usually when a change is made to a frame following a certain playstyle, subsequent changes are also made to other frames with that playstyle. 

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17 minutes ago, Linisti said:

You can, Nezha has a 100% damage reduction ability with a set damage well to drawn from, so does Rhino. Usually when a change is made to a frame following a certain playstyle, subsequent changes are also made to other frames with that playstyle. 

Or, in order to make it so that two frames DON'T have the exact same playstyle, these changes will only be made to Nezha

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I like the sound of all of these changes but I still have some ideas that I'd like to propose instead/in addition:

1.  Rather than making Nezha need to hit a speared enemy to produce another Chakram, simply make this the default functionality and make it able to produce theoretically infinite Chakram's as long as there is an enemy to hit so that Nezha can rapidly affect an entire group with extra damage without the need for a second ability to be cast for max efficiency.  I say this because I just feel like too much of Nezha's functionality is overlapping with Nova's Molecular Prime which is one of the best CC's and damage boosters in the game.  Why would I take a Nezha who needs to cast two different abilities to get the same value (Damage boost and CC) that Nova does out of one?

"Well Nezha can hard CC enemies and Nova only slows them!"

I mean technically, yes, but have you ever played with a Nova that has genuinely high power strength?  They're so slow they're basically not part of the fight.  On top of this, Nova also applies AoE damage on top of damage boosting.

2.  Firewalker is nice, but it's incredibly hard to actually make effective use of without sitting there deliberately running in circles around enemies or repeatedly going back over choke points.  It would be nice to see a simple expansion effect similar to what Arson Eximi get.  Just something so that you aren't simply limited to affecting what is directly behind you.

3.  Being as Nezha is incredibly mobility slanted, it would be nice to see him get a bullet jump effect like Titania.  I personally would like to see it so that if Nezha bullet jumps close to an enemy or enemies then it will spawn a couple spears like how Hydroid spawns tentacles on slam attacks.  (This effect could also be added to the slide)

Those are just my thoughts on Nezha.  I'm happy to see him finally getting some value in his kit beyond just being a one-trick pony for Warding Halo and I hope this all plays out well!

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It...it's beautiful!  This sounds amazing.  Really like how this sounds, and it may bring me back into the Nezha main fold.

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3647356ae06aba88bc1bf55daeb5fc9e.png

As a melee Nezha main, I'm very unhappy with the idea of changing Warding Halo to 90% damage reduction. I really don't want to have to spam-cast Blazing Chakram to survive, or change my entire mod loadout and playstyle around this. I think Nezha is probably the most fun frame in the game to play... but I'm worried that won't be the case after this rework. It'll mean no more speedframe for sure. 😥

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1 minute ago, FinalGrimoire said:

3647356ae06aba88bc1bf55daeb5fc9e.png

As a melee Nezha main, I'm very unhappy with the idea of changing Warding Halo to 90% damage reduction. I really don't want to have to spam-cast Blazing Chakram to survive, or change my entire mod loadout and playstyle around this. I think Nezha is probably the most fun frame in the game to play... but I'm worried that won't be the case after this rework. It'll mean no more speedframe for sure. 😥

Take a look at Gara, with Intensify, her 2 makes her really, really, really hard to kill

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So, after a goods night sleep and getting over some of the initial frustration at the changes, I figured I'd toss in a few ideas of how to alter Nezha to make him stronger and more consistant without moving him out of his support role. I skimmed some other replies and saw some of this mentioned already, but wanted to add my voice.

 

Fire Walker: Remove the ability as an individual entity and make it part of warding halo. Remove the trail effect of cleansing allies and all other fancy effects. Make it just a trail that does some damage as long as the shield is active. The trail does so little damage it's barely noticeable once you leave low level content, so this would not add much power to warding halo or Nezha as a whole, while also retaining the small damage and the fire trail as a part of Nezha's identity. The duration/length of the trail would also probably need to be lowered.

New 1: Nezha immediately lights all nearby enemies on fire with damage and stagger effects taken directly from the burning status, but with no need for a proc chance calculation. Fire color matches Nezha energy color. No initial damage, just a DoT. Enemies impaled by divine spears while on fire from this ability explode, taking additional damage and release an energy restoring pulse. Energy restored would need to be minuscule, e.g. 1/1/2/3 energy per enemy to avoid having the restore get ridiculous with high enemy volume.  

Blazing Chakram: Keep all proposed changes from the current rework, but make certain melee mods affect the chakram. Essentially making it a pseudo-exalted weapon. While Nezha doesn't use the chakram as a melee weapon, it's basically a glaive. This would allow the ability to do a reasonable amount of damage while still also offering the support-type benefits it already had. This would solidify the ability as Nezha's "core" ability as well and make it worth using for something other than a tiny heal/energy restore and the debuff to enemies damage taken. 

Warding Halo: Add Fire Walker to the halo as mentioned above.

Divine Spears: Additional synergy with the newly proposed 1 as mentioned above. Enemies impaled on the spears lose armor for as long as they remain on the spear. Armor is returned immediately once the ult ends. In low level content, this will barely be noticeable. In high level content however, it will help solidify Nezha as a support frame that brings a lot of different effects to the table without directly adding damage to the ult. This would prevent the ult from becoming another ability like World on Fire or Soundquake that specifically built around for mass damage and infinite CC while still adding much needed support for his team.  

Overall, the above changes add some effects that benefit Nezha's team to help round out his support role while also upping his own damage output a bit without adding anything that can scale out of control and turn him into a full offense frame. This would give Nezha a much more define role in the game instead of remaining trapped as "that frame that has a ton of different weak effects but no noticeable impact".

Edited by Falzarr

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1 minute ago, FeztacularGames said:

Take a look at Gara, with Intensify, her 2 makes her really, really, really hard to kill

This is true, but Gara has more health and shields, and an impenetrable wall of glass if things go wrong. Nezha's 4 makes a good "emergency button", but it's not perfect, and doesn't affect anything beyond its range - it doesn't stop bullets. I do like that damage absorption begins during the casting animation, though. It's a much-needed buffer.

Part of the reason I've always loved playing Nezha is the insane speeds you can reach with him. To mod around the new set-up might mean losing that, and it's not something I'm looking forward to.

In the end, we'll just have to see how the rework holds up in actual gameplay.

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could you please rework warframe in need, like mag, ember or maybe nyx, before nerfing good one ?

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given that nezha will probably now be very dependent on his blazing chakram to generate health and energy, i do hope you'll make it one-handed and not just movement-non-restricting

Edited by continue
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90% damage reduction(instead of complete invulnerability) completed with mediocre, at best, health and shields, and dependency on spamming Burning Chakram(and teleporting somewhere, because the damn thing never back when you need it)... Yeah, no more high level play for Nezha. Good thing I got to it before this rework.

5 минут назад, Aisu9 сказал:

could you please rework warframe in need, like mag, ember or maybe nyx, before nerfing good one ?

With "reworks" like this particular one, I think it'd be better if they don't touch Mag at all.

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Can you guys add the ability to remove the SATA cords hanging off Nezha's head, the same way you can remove Mortos binds from Nekros?

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Welp thiss killed my nezha build. ;_;  going to have too take off almost all my speed and maglev mods now.

If your going to gut warding halo and give him 90% instead. 

Might as well give him more armor otherwise 90% damage reduction is not that great especially when you dont have  that much base hp and you already gutted his base sheilds 

90% reduxtion on a level 100 sortie is sit basicly all your hp.

 

Atlest I can keep my amrored agility so thats something ;_;

 

Edited by hazerddex
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44 minutes ago, continue said:

given that nezha will probably now be very dependent on his blazing chakram to generate health and energy, i do hope you'll make it one-handed and not just movement-non-restricting

 

33 minutes ago, anfuerudo said:

90% damage reduction(instead of complete invulnerability) completed with mediocre, at best, health and shields, and dependency on spamming Burning Chakram(and teleporting somewhere, because the damn thing never back when you need it)... Yeah, no more high level play for Nezha. Good thing I got to it before this rework.

With "reworks" like this particular one, I think it'd be better if they don't touch Mag at all.

You guys are REALLY blowing how much Nezha needs those health drops out of proportion... 90% damage reduction is a lot, on top of any damage reduction from armor you'll likely be taking incredibly minimal damage.  At no point will you be "dependent" on "spamming" Chakram, you just won't be walking through an entire mission without ever being in a single millisecond of danger anymore.

I'll admit I'd definitely rather have full invulnerability than the 90% because who wouldn't?  But what you need to understand is that the power that invulnerability grants is what holds Nezha's kit back.  Because that one ability is so strong, the rest of his kit has to be weak or he'd literally just be the most OP thing in the game.  Reducing that invulnerability to a resistance, even if it is near invulnerability, gives a lot more play room for his power distribution.

And @anfuerudo specifically; Nezha was never "good" for high level play.  The only thing propping him up was that he was invulnerable, the rest of his kit was incredibly weak in high level play so being as this rework brings the rest of his kit up, he's better  for high level play than he is now.

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This 90% change and heals are good and all, but 10% of damage that you'll get is still a lot, especially if that 10% equals to 1k out of 10k damage, heh. I hope Nezha get's some armor increase, since you can't rely on outhealing incoming damage at all times.

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Ermm if you change the Chakram healing to orbs it severely limits its usability.

He wont be able to heal escort targets or any of that or pets with it anymore.

Also, am I getting it correctly that the 4th now just puncture spears enemies...and for the re-tracting slam I have to push the button again?
Why? that just seems like needless busy work for the player....

Kinda similar with exploding the boulder boys with Atlas's 4th right?

Edited by ZoneDymo
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10 минут назад, Ceadeus сказал:

what holds Nezha's kit back

Beg your pardon, what kit now?

12 минут назад, Ceadeus сказал:

 the rest of his kit was incredibly weak in high level play so being as this rework brings the rest of his kit up, he's better  for high level play than he is now.

No, it doesn't. Furthermore, it makes it even weaker on low levels. Note how easy 10lvl, assuming all footage for animations in OP was taken in single mission, grineer lancers bring down 30lvl Nezha's HP down even with Halo. Yeah, probably, just probably, it was played without mods. But doesn't make it any better. And, as @Lone_Dude said, 10% of 10k is still 1k. My Nezha with overshield has around 1.5k hp and shields. With 10% bleedthrough it's a two-shot frame.

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1 minute ago, ZoneDymo said:

Ermm if you change the Chakram healing to orbs it severely limits its usability.

He wont be able to heal escort targets or any of that or pets with it anymore.

Yeah and it seems like it's pretty much confirmed to be like that. Also Pablo said on his twitter that there will be no changes to augments except for Blazing Chakram augment. It's going to give chance for extra health orbs based on how many enemies you hit... So yeah.. protector playstyle RIP

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2 minutes ago, Dvvolf said:

Yeah and it seems like it's pretty much confirmed to be like that. Also Pablo said on his twitter that there will be no changes to augments except for Blazing Chakram augment. It's going to give chance for extra health orbs based on how many enemies you hit... So yeah.. protector playstyle RIP

right? I always liked the way it worked, an ally is fighting an enemy, throw the disc at enemy, quick kill, ez heals...

The range limit only made it more balanced but it is very usable.
Not happy with this suggestion/chance at all 😞

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What i don't get and what DE doesn't seem to realize is that you can easily spam his 4th ability to keep enemies stuck in place and after this update it's going to be even easier. This whole change is just weird. I'm not sure what his role is anymore. He has heal that requires more work to execute than nekros' Desecrate and does much less healing than Trinity or Oberon. Before i could at least protect my allies and defense/rescue targets but now ? What am i supposed to do ? Sure I can move fast and avoid getting hit so i don't really need 100% damage reduction but I wanted it for my teammates. All i wanted was a way to be even better at protecting. Give him a way to protect lures and party during eidolon fights and a way to refresh or heal his halos. What i got instead is even more reasons to spam his 4 to get enemies stuck on the ground. 

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