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Dev Workshop: Nezha Revisited

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Still trying it out but first impressions on abilities, no forma and basically built around power strength due to warding halo...in all aspects I approve of the more fluid and speedy animations which don't feel like we are slamming our brakes on all the time, any chance you can do the same with the rest of the frames now....

1 - would still prefer a drain ability over duration, the 30 seconds base time is just too short for the cost imo. 

2 - been using it more than the old version but teleport is still clunky for me personally, it's not a smooth transition when you arrive as it kind of feels like I've just had a commander teleport me.  Admittedly the enemy level might be too low but I haven't been able to get any of the synergy with 4 to work and health drops don't seem to drop that often.  Also can't make out the 'marked' enemies very easily.

3 - Haven't had a high enough level to stress it yet but it seems really weird to have a 90% reduction AND still need to use armor and power strength to increase it's durability.  Also seems to go against the rest of the kit in as much that to maximise this you need to maximise strength while the others abilities benefit more from range or duration/efficiency (long term versus spam ability).

4 - I would like some easier way of seeing it's active, I've had no end of times where I actually deactivated it rather than activating it  because I thought it had expired. 

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I don't know if it's been mentioned but his right arm clips into his knee with the new skin when using the noble animation set.

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His Chakram gets blocked by allies/AI. It's a waste of a cast when it just bounces back to you.

His Firewalker seems to stop his -friction passive momentum when you cast it.

Edited by Wolfchild07
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5 hours ago, FormatDriveC said:

try using heath conversion mod and arcane pulse, arcane pulse + chackram = oh my god

I have the arcane set, but I didn't consider it worth using on Oberon prime, when I did pretty much the same build you are inspired by compared to a Rage build. It just isn't reliable and Oberon can make many more orbs by just weakening foes until a good Reckoning or two finishes them off. Nekros can do it because he both doesn't need stats as much and Despoil allows a small engine in one move of self harm with sucking in the created orbs. My old build with Oberon used Hema and a back-up source of orbs in Broken Scepter while maximizing power strength and using Heatlh Conversion and the Pulse arcane normally stowed on my Nekros's helmet (it was before Eidolons) while it worked somewhat on weak foes, it wasn't reliable on anything my own level or higher. Either way, hope it works out for you, and see if Hema and Broken Scepter work out for your style, as they can help in some situations.

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RIP 100% damage reduction.

Although the fire AOE does seem useful. Definitely going to try him out now that I can FINALLY play Warframe again! Was refusing to play the game til the Deluxe came out. Thank you guys so, so much ❤️

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On 2018-09-10 at 12:28 PM, Kialandi said:

Nova's Null Star has damage reduction but it doesn't reduce damage to her shields.

Really? That’s a real shame. Every other damage reduction ability works like that. What the heck DE? Fix nova plz!

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10 hours ago, TyrianMollusk said:

Can't turn Firewalker off, and recasting resets the duration, so looks like the augment is as dead as it could possibly be.  Just unapologetically ruining an augment seems pretty rude.  At the least, augment users should have Firewalker turn off when they re-cast.

I'm guessing you either didn't have Pyroclastic equipped  or you didn't accumulate any damage with FW.  Or they changed it in one of the hotfixes.

Equipping pyro now gives you the ability to turn off FW and kick...as long as you've accumulated some FW damage.  If you haven't damaged anything yet, you can neither turn it off nor kick--not that it would serve much purpose if you could.  😛  (For what it's worth, this is actually a holdover from the old channel. You could turn off FW whenever you wanted obviously, but same as now you wouldn't get the Pyroclastic kick if you hadn't accumulated any damage.)

One nice thing I hadn't expected is that you don't  automatically kick or  lose the accumulation even when FW's duration ends.  Instead, when it's turned -on- again, you get the kick.  Which gets a little confusing, honestly.  But it's much better than the alternatives, so hopefully it's the intended behavior.

I'm still evaluating, but my early impression is that I still prefer the old version.  And yet, I don't dislike the new one as much as I thought I might.

 

Edited by Tiltskillet
sense
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I'll move through abilities and go over good and then bad in the spoiler. Been testing things out.

The problems with the current Nezha

Spoiler

Lots to get into with Warding Halo, it's a mixed bag:
So the scaling of Halo's health is quite significant which is Halo's primary (only) upgrade, but because it relies on being damaged by enemies it's pretty unreliable. Sometimes it gets 10x more health other times even in a swarm it gets nothing (partly due to Nezha's own CC). That makes it much stronger on builds that weren't oriented to Halo solely to it but nerfs the builds that were built to push Halo's limits. Even committing to the Halo and Umbral mods and Health Conversion still results in being one-shot at mid-high levels and most notably actually leaves Nezha with less room for recovery now. This will be a recurring issue as we go through.
On Warding Halo this comes out of 2 elements, 1st the simple fact 90% of Damage reduction means you're always vulnerable vs 100 being able to provide an instant barrier for last minute saves. 2nd Blazing Chakram has no burst heal and relies on high numbers of kills instead of specific targeting and taking out of an enemy. So when you need to rebuild health quickly there's no longer a good opportunity because you have to manage Nezha's health and his Halo together. It was pretty much a built in synergy that was only lacking because of Nezha's low base health and meh armor. Now he's got the health (still kinda meh for armor without Health Conversion) so he could have actually taken advantage but now he only has 90% reduction and no Burst heal he can't use it that at all. He's left with the obvious, forced synergy of Spamming Chakram for health, but because it's orbs he can't really catch up. These 2 are the biggest nerfs to recovery, Nezha cannot recover from sticky situations very well at all. So the good part is survivability comes a little simpler, but it's also the bad part and more boring to mod since you just use what you use on every frame and it cannot specialize as well.

Along with that some of my biggest concerns indeed became reality. Nezha can get a decent amount of health but he's not overall more survivable than before in a specialized build. So the build variety has become noticeably more standard. Nezha no longer has polarized builds that are viable. There's not much point specializing since you'll pretty much always perform best with the most generic generalized build.
When Halo runs out I find I'm absolutely just as vulnerable as the previous version and in some builds and situations, the hardest ones, far, far more vulnerable. This is part because of how Health conversion works, you're far more often in a state of 2 charges of Health Conversions active vs. before I could have 3 charges ready for when Halo was about to fall, the only issue before was the rarity of health orbs without very specific specializations. The other part is again the lack of burst heal for recovery options you'll need to have spammed for orbs. If a Nullifyer is nearby you have almost no options beyond having a specialty anti-nullifyer weapon build, and if there's an energy drain nearby, you're dead. Blazing Chakram has no way of hitting enough targets to even chance getting enough health, and Warding Halo disappears on entry to a nullifyer and costs way too much energy for what it does.
This impacts his augments the most. Safeguard is kinda junk now, particularly on sentinels.  This and Warding Halo's end leaves no chance of retaining the damage reduction which it claimed to have, the flame burst is also unreliable.


So Firewalker now costs very little to use and put up, but also is a lot less useful for CC since it requires more attention and due to spamming Chakram you're majorly reduced in your freedom of mobility and movement. Pyroclastic Flow is heavily nerfed. You have very limitied damage potential and you cannot see how much damage you've built up! The CC has been heavily hindered by Nezha's need to find Chakram targets now driving Nezha rather than Nezha traveling in patterns for CC and damage. 30 Seconds is also remarkably short. Pyroclastic & Firewalker specializations are much worse I find. The limiters here also have greatly reduced Nezha's recovery, he no longer can apply CC before Warding Halo runs out since he's too driven by Chakram for having Health readily available. The ability no longer has any convenience in timing especially Pyroclastic Flow. It can't be emergency CC Damage to give a moment of breathing room.


Blazing Chakram has major damage improvements which is fantastic, the energy orb drops are also an element I've been requesting in some form or another for a while and they are greatly appreciated. But the Health orbs are immensely worse than burst healing. Health Conversion is not worth the loss of burst healing and equilibrium is redundant for energy and insufficient for health partly since energy orb drops seem much less common than the Health. Although Nezha never needs the energy at all while Firewalker doesn't drain to begin with. It also takes up too much build room for all of the health, energy and armor mods necessary so you nerver can take much advatage of any of the mods since Nezha is much more mod hungry with 90% reduction.
In addition Healing teammates has become even less reliable since Safeguard isn't effective for providing opportunity to heal and orbs simply don't give enough. Healing sentinels also is not effective at all. Picking up health orbs also drives Nezha and hurts Firewalker CC and play-ability quite a bit. The element I dislike most is how these things make Blazing Chakram drive Nezha around now rather than Nezha's free flow of movement and the player is forced to use Blazing Chakram rather than Blazing Chakram simply being useful enough to be worthwhile. Blazing Chakram did easily get the most improvement, but the rework focused too much on it and overcompensated to try to make it useful


Divine Spears is basically the same, it's still alright but it could've used some more tweaks to be great. This is the other reason Firewalker is no longer worth building into. It prevents Firewalker from working, and gives the CC Firewalker used to be much more capable of. Range builds have replaced building for duration so Firewalker is there but focusing on Divine Spears is usually more effective except for how it interacts with Ancient Healers. The second cast still exists and is still unfortunately momentum halting and slow. Unfortunately prevents Halo from Scaling as well.


So to fix I say:
Firewalker

  • Is Channeled but much reduced energy drain. Orbs from Chakram will give good use for the Chakram, the energy recovery simply being applied while draining is also an option 
  • Animation changed from a hop to a sliding animation accelerating Nezha, this makes way more sense than the hop to begin with. 
  • Benefits from range mods allowing for a slightly more width but doesn't become reduced by negative range
  • Pyroclasic Flow now:
    • Can retain 10% of damage by being cast before it runs out
    • Lasts for 15 seconds at base
    • Range is affected as Firewalker is, also allowing for a longer trail
       

Blazing Chakram

  • Retains orb drop functions with either
    • An additional burst heal with a range of at least 25m at base and slightly lower chance of Health orbs like 25%  
    • Or Health and Energy orbs are multiplied by # of enemies hit so the last enemy hit drops like 5
  • Teleport retains momentum
  • Disc has a tracker akin to the tracker used on enemies in Archwing, and on waypoints allies use
  • Hovers for a second at furthest point on charged throw allowing a chance to teleport creatively
  • Passes though Nullifyer bubbles but does no damage on charged throw, for an emergency escape/reposition teleport
  • Restored Explosion with firewalker, still doesn't cancel Firewalker.
     

Warding Halo uses Crixus044's suggestion of having an initial 90% damage reduction while building Halo and after a moddable ?5 second? dunno. Duration, The Halo finishes building and becomes a health based Halo with 100% reduction until it explodes on destruction maybe only with Firewalker active and leaves 2 seconds of invulnerability to recast. It leaves a ton of variety of ways to build and Leaves room for a good variety of strategies as well all while being well balanced. And actually offering protection both unique and as effective as other frames. Very nice hybrid between old and new.

  • Radius on stun could be increased to 2.5-3m on default
  • Radius cannot go below 1.5m


Divine Spears

  • Pins enemies to ground/allows fire to travel up spears from ground so Firewalker and PryoClasic Flow can apply damage to targets.
  • 2nd Cast animation  doesn't interrupt movement, perhaps is represented through a set of 4 mini-spears dropping around Nezha so it doesn't interfere with his movement at all.
  • To allow Halo to scale properly instead of hindering Damage dealt to enemies afflicted by Divine Spears from abilities contributes to Halo health. This also allows players to be in control of Halo health instead of players being dictated by enemy damage.
  • Range cannot go below 15m
  • Default range increased to 25m
Edited by Sasuda
forgot some details
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3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Equipping pyro now gives you the ability to turn off FW and kick

Ah, good to know.  No, I don't have the mod, just checking turning on/off Firewalker.  At least that's something, I guess.  Very weird about the on-next-activation thing.  I'll have to try it sometime.

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Could you please look into how long it takes Infested to attack Octavia's Mallet? It's super annoying how they seem to get "stuck" standing right in front of it just kinda staring at it instead of actively attacking it. I cannot count the number of times I've watched 20+ infested enemies get stuck on it during defense missions, until I shoot one to "alarm" them, and then they begin to attack it. They are the only enemies who do this, I assume it has something to do with their melee, but either way it's a really annoying bug.

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2 hours ago, LurDraigo said:

please give Gara some care T^T

Aside from her redundant third ability, she's one of the strongest Warframes now.

90% damage reduction, her 4 scales by the enemies that get caught in the building of it, your 2's damage scales by dealing damage with your 4 if broken with your 1. It scales endlessly it's the only other thing in the game that could one shot a 9999. Her 4 resets her 3's timer, you can apply it to all allies, kubros, sentinels, specters, and when 4 passes through them. It resets as well, your entire team is a tanking God as long as you all stay in close proximity. 

Her passive activates frequently, finally throw a Nidus specter to heal and an ancient, buff them, nobody gets proced, the ancient can't die, if Indus specter has scourge, nothing has armor, use whatever aura.

Edited by (XB1)Evilpricetag

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8 hours ago, LSG501 said:

2 - been using it more than the old version but teleport is still clunky for me personally, it's not a smooth transition when you arrive as it kind of feels like I've just had a commander teleport me.  Admittedly the enemy level might be too low but I haven't been able to get any of the synergy with 4 to work and health drops don't seem to drop that often.  Also can't make out the 'marked' enemies very easily.

Consider using the Reaping Chakram augment. 2x damage from the ring and more health drops!

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So, uhm... did nobody notice the clipping issue with the right arm and leg of the new skin when in noble animation? The arm moves trough one of the new details of the skin when idle. It's pretty noticeable. 

 

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why you can charge the halo, when you are one shot by a enemy level 200? why chargin anything when you can still get damage? 90% might sound a lot, but even mirage is one shot with her 3 in the shadow. i find it dumb. the halo and the movment was the only thing what nezha kept allive. sure the movment ist great, but what ability is know usfull? 4? know he is one of those frame who we can say; jea, thats fun to play, but it is not great.

just to be clear: when you but a halo on youre team mate, it is not save for him, he still gets damage...?
sure there is some frames might still get immortality like Nekros, Mirage and so on.

awry thing else of the rework is neat, i aktully like that. ^^
porberly they are not necessary abbility or annithing like that, but it ist "fun" to play. 

 

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Unbelievable... Great job Pablo, really nice job. Now he's really fun to use, and lethal. Love the synergies.

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2 hours ago, Akaruy said:

So, uhm... did nobody notice the clipping issue with the right arm and leg of the new skin when in noble animation? The arm moves trough one of the new details of the skin when idle. It's pretty noticeable. 

 

Yeah I noticed but to be honest I've given up saying about all the clipping issues, and it's something that does my head in as someone who works in 3D design, because it's pretty clear either are DE not able or willing to do anything about it.  There's a a LOT more than just nezha skin which has issues.

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Nice... they messed up the only ability used Nezha for... Warding Halo, i will miss you!(With Safeguard augment, it was a 0% damage to all teammates on lighter missions and small damage on high level missions. Now with 90% absorption only They can still be hurt... I guess i will just use Gara instead... Thanks for messing it up!(It was honestly one of my favourite 1 ability warframes... now it's in the same place in my mind as wukong. strong strong, but useless compared to others.)

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3 hours ago, XzWasPzX said:

Unbelievable... Great job Pablo, really nice job. Now he's really fun to use, and lethal. Love the synergies.

1st is good

2nd is now ruined, health orbs means the ability is now very limited

3rd is nerfed just so you can use his healing to fight this now introduced nerf.....

4th is seemingly adding needless busy work for the player.

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hace 4 horas, XzWasPzX dijo:

Unbelievable... Great job Pablo, really nice job. Now he's really fun to use, and lethal. Love the synergies.

yeah just this !! dont listen ppl who always they dont like some aspect.. now is usefull and  dont press to forgot frame

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Pyroclastic Flow just lost some potential.
Health orbs instead of healing pulse?

Uh oh.
I dunno about this, fellas.

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10 hours ago, Sasuda said:

I'll move through abilities and go over good and then bad in the spoiler. Been testing things out.

The problems with the current Nezha

  Reveal hidden contents

Lots to get into with Warding Halo, it's a mixed bag:
So the scaling of Halo's health is quite significant which is Halo's primary (only) upgrade, but because it relies on being damaged by enemies it's pretty unreliable. Sometimes it gets 10x more health other times even in a swarm it gets nothing (partly due to Nezha's own CC). That makes it much stronger on builds that weren't oriented to Halo solely to it but nerfs the builds that were built to push Halo's limits. Even committing to the Halo and Umbral mods and Health Conversion still results in being one-shot at mid-high levels and most notably actually leaves Nezha with less room for recovery now. This will be a recurring issue as we go through.
On Warding Halo this comes out of 2 elements, 1st the simple fact 90% of Damage reduction means you're always vulnerable vs 100 being able to provide an instant barrier for last minute saves. 2nd Blazing Chakram has no burst heal and relies on high numbers of kills instead of specific targeting and taking out of an enemy. So when you need to rebuild health quickly there's no longer a good opportunity because you have to manage Nezha's health and his Halo together. It was pretty much a built in synergy that was only lacking because of Nezha's low base health and meh armor. Now he's got the health (still kinda meh for armor without Health Conversion) so he could have actually taken advantage but now he only has 90% reduction and no Burst heal he can't use it that at all. He's left with the obvious, forced synergy of Spamming Chakram for health, but because it's orbs he can't really catch up. These 2 are the biggest nerfs to recovery, Nezha cannot recover from sticky situations very well at all. So the good part is survivability comes a little simpler, but it's also the bad part and more boring to mod since you just use what you use on every frame and it cannot specialize as well.

Along with that some of my biggest concerns indeed became reality. Nezha can get a decent amount of health but he's not overall more survivable than before in a specialized build. So the build variety has become noticeably more standard. Nezha no longer has polarized builds that are viable. There's not much point specializing since you'll pretty much always perform best with the most generic generalized build.
When Halo runs out I find I'm absolutely just as vulnerable as the previous version and in some builds and situations, the hardest ones, far, far more vulnerable. This is part because of how Health conversion works, you're far more often in a state of 2 charges of Health Conversions active vs. before I could have 3 charges ready for when Halo was about to fall, the only issue before was the rarity of health orbs without very specific specializations. The other part is again the lack of burst heal for recovery options you'll need to have spammed for orbs. If a Nullifyer is nearby you have almost no options beyond having a specialty anti-nullifyer weapon build, and if there's an energy drain nearby, you're dead. Blazing Chakram has no way of hitting enough targets to even chance getting enough health, and Warding Halo disappears on entry to a nullifyer and costs way too much energy for what it does.
This impacts his augments the most. Safeguard is kinda junk now, particularly on sentinels.  This and Warding Halo's end leaves no chance of retaining the damage reduction which it claimed to have, the flame burst is also unreliable.


So Firewalker now costs very little to use and put up, but also is a lot less useful for CC since it requires more attention and due to spamming Chakram you're majorly reduced in your freedom of mobility and movement. Pyroclastic Flow is heavily nerfed. You have very limitied damage potential and you cannot see how much damage you've built up! The CC has been heavily hindered by Nezha's need to find Chakram targets now driving Nezha rather than Nezha traveling in patterns for CC and damage. 30 Seconds is also remarkably short. Pyroclastic & Firewalker specializations are much worse I find. The limiters here also have greatly reduced Nezha's recovery, he no longer can apply CC before Warding Halo runs out since he's too driven by Chakram for having Health readily available. The ability no longer has any convenience in timing especially Pyroclastic Flow. It can't be emergency CC Damage to give a moment of breathing room.


Blazing Chakram has major damage improvements which is fantastic, the energy orb drops are also an element I've been requesting in some form or another for a while and they are greatly appreciated. But the Health orbs are immensely worse than burst healing. Health Conversion is not worth the loss of burst healing and equilibrium is redundant for energy and insufficient for health partly since energy orb drops seem much less common than the Health. Although Nezha never needs the energy at all while Firewalker doesn't drain to begin with. It also takes up too much build room for all of the health, energy and armor mods necessary so you nerver can take much advatage of any of the mods since Nezha is much more mod hungry with 90% reduction.
In addition Healing teammates has become even less reliable since Safeguard isn't effective for providing opportunity to heal and orbs simply don't give enough. Healing sentinels also is not effective at all. Picking up health orbs also drives Nezha and hurts Firewalker CC and play-ability quite a bit. The element I dislike most is how these things make Blazing Chakram drive Nezha around now rather than Nezha's free flow of movement and the player is forced to use Blazing Chakram rather than Blazing Chakram simply being useful enough to be worthwhile. Blazing Chakram did easily get the most improvement, but the rework focused too much on it and overcompensated to try to make it useful


Divine Spears is basically the same, it's still alright but it could've used some more tweaks to be great. This is the other reason Firewalker is no longer worth building into. It prevents Firewalker from working, and gives the CC Firewalker used to be much more capable of. Range builds have replaced building for duration so Firewalker is there but focusing on Divine Spears is usually more effective except for how it interacts with Ancient Healers. The second cast still exists and is still unfortunately momentum halting and slow. Unfortunately prevents Halo from Scaling as well.


So to fix I say:
Firewalker

  • Is Channeled but much reduced energy drain. Orbs from Chakram will give good use for the Chakram, the energy recovery simply being applied while draining is also an option 
  • Animation changed from a hop to a sliding animation accelerating Nezha, this makes way more sense than the hop to begin with. 
  • Benefits from range mods allowing for a slightly more width but doesn't become reduced by negative range
  • Pyroclasic Flow now:
    • Can retain 10% of damage by being cast before it runs out
    • Lasts for 15 seconds at base
    • Range is affected as Firewalker is, also allowing for a longer trail
       

Blazing Chakram

  • Retains orb drop functions with either
    • An additional burst heal with a range of at least 25m at base and slightly lower chance of Health orbs like 25%  
    • Or Health and Energy orbs are multiplied by # of enemies hit so the last enemy hit drops like 5
  • Teleport retains momentum
  • Disc has a tracker akin to the tracker used on enemies in Archwing, and on waypoints allies use
  • Hovers for a second at furthest point on charged throw allowing a chance to teleport creatively
  • Passes though Nullifyer bubbles but does no damage on charged throw, for an emergency escape/reposition teleport
  • Restored Explosion with firewalker, still doesn't cancel Firewalker.
     

Warding Halo uses Crixus044's suggestion of having an initial 90% damage reduction while building Halo and after a moddable ?5 second? dunno. Duration, The Halo finishes building and becomes a health based Halo with 100% reduction until it explodes on destruction maybe only with Firewalker active and leaves 2 seconds of invulnerability to recast. It leaves a ton of variety of ways to build and Leaves room for a good variety of strategies as well all while being well balanced. And actually offering protection both unique and as effective as other frames. Very nice hybrid between old and new.

  • Radius on stun could be increased to 2.5-3m on default
  • Radius cannot go below 1.5m


Divine Spears

  • Pins enemies to ground/allows fire to travel up spears from ground so Firewalker and PryoClasic Flow can apply damage to targets.
  • 2nd Cast animation  doesn't interrupt movement, perhaps is represented through a set of 4 mini-spears dropping around Nezha so it doesn't interfere with his movement at all.
  • To allow Halo to scale properly instead of hindering Damage dealt to enemies afflicted by Divine Spears from abilities contributes to Halo health. This also allows players to be in control of Halo health instead of players being dictated by enemy damage.
  • Range cannot go below 15m
  • Default range increased to 25m

I like this a lot, but we can do even more how about the first just drains energy and have it be restorable through normal methods. It feels like they are trying to say that we should always have it active anyways.

Then also let the flames mark enemies that walk through them and if you use the Chakram it could carry the flames marking groups of enemies in a much wider area. It would also affect the fourth by hitting a much larger area and spreading flames much more.

His 3rd ability would be cool if it had its own restoration so it could act as a shield that is affected by armor. So when it goes a while without taking damage it would start to restore itself and naturally it would be affected by shield restoration mods as well :D. 

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