Prevent Bubble based abilities being removed by nullifier fields

[Jax_Cavalera]

Update

Adding this to avoid confusion.
Proposal: 

- "Bubble" abilities like snow globe, magnetize, cataclysm etc that get removed on contact with a nullie field would no longer be removed

- enemies inside a nullie field are immune to the ability even when the nullie field intersects with the ability.

Example of mag below:

I'm not sure if this is a glitch or what's going on but due to how weak mag's armor and hp are, plus how useless a shield tank is against toxin, slash etc. Mag's best line of defense against Corpus is her Magnetize bubbles, which have their own challenges to deal with like getting hit by stray rounds as they're redirected to the center of the bubble.

This ability becomes 100% useless against corpus once nullifiers start spawning in since they insta-remove the Magnetize bubble the moment their field touches it. There are plenty of other warframes that have abilities which, once cast are not instantly removed if touched by a nullifier bubble and this never used to be a huge problem when nullie bubbles were a bit smaller but lately it seems they can randomly scale quite large.

This all results in mag drawing back to her more basic Pull CC skill to try keep the hoards at bay while popping nullie bubbles and I can say from experience that as you get to higher levels where nothing but hoards of nullifiers start to spawn in, her effectiveness drops off quickly.

Proposed Change

• Enemies inside a nullifier field do not take damage from Magnetize (including the nullifier)
• Nullifier fields no longer remove magnetize bubbles upon contact
• Rounds fired at a player by an enemy located inside both the nullifier fied AND magnetize bubble are unaffected by magnetize

So the only way to stay safe is to deal with the nullifier ( and its field ), but at least this way you have a little protection from ranged attacks by enemies taking cover.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Jax_Cavalera
Updated

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Doubt they'll change it due to consistency for other highly similar abilities. Mag won't get special treatment.

[taiiat]

you already have a convenient leniency. Nullifiers cancel the Ability by hitting Magnetize, but hitting you doesn't do anything.

dealing with Nullifiers is trivially easy thesedays. maybe half a dozen nerfs to them ago i might possibly agree.

[Jax_Cavalera]

That leniency only works in scenarios where you do not have to defend a specific objective with a fixed position you cannot influence. When it comes down to defending a fixed position objective, Mag is left with 3 options:

• Pull CC (won't work against mobs inside nullifier bubbles)
• Magnetize (won't work against nullifier bubbles if there is any vertical stacking .. i.e Void Defense, Sortie Mobile Defense on Jupiter / Venus, etc.)
• Crush CC (won't work against mobs inside nullifier bubbles and mag cannot move while it's active so you only get 2 to 3 seconds of CC max after the ability casting ends)

There's nothing trivial about those scenarios at all and this change wouldn't make her ability overpowered since anything inside the nullifier bubble remains unaffected by magnitize.

All this does is offer players a little bit of breathing room in cases where a nullifier bubble sticks through the floor or a wall permanently disabling the only decent technique mag has for standing her ground due to the low EHP she has.

There are hundreds of scenarios where I agree, her kit is perfect as is right now, this is just that one edge case which could really benefit from a subtle tweak without having any significant impact on balancing. It still forces players to take care of nullifiers ASAP using one of the existing techniques, and doesn't provide invincibility being shots redirected by magnetize can and will damage Mag if she's not careful.

But there is nothing convenient about fixed position target defense where nullfiier bubbles clip through walls and floor creating an ability dead zone right over the objective.. and really defense is something the magnetize ability should be convenient to use in defense type missions based on how it works.

@Omega-Shadowblade I agree, it's quite unlikely they'll make the effort to do so, unless they also did similar to things like frost's snow globe which really should also get the same treatment IMO. It doesn't make it crazy strong either, it just means that it remains effective against mobs still off in the distance (which is kinda the point to it) but when they get up close you have to get down and dirt to deal with them.  And yeah there are trade-offs, snow globe lets you shoot out of it, magnetize doesn't but at least they both can work defensively for ranged targets when a nullifier sneaks up into close range or spawns in on the floor above with their bubble clipping through to unexpectedly remove your protection.

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

• Pull CC (won't work against mobs inside nullifier bubbles)
• Magnetize (won't work against nullifier bubbles if there is any vertical stacking .. i.e Void Defense, Sortie Mobile Defense on Jupiter / Venus, etc.)
• Crush CC (won't work against mobs inside nullifier bubbles and mag cannot move while it's active so you only get 2 to 3 seconds of CC max after the ability casting ends)

 

You left out the first option of your guns to burst the bubble.  If you're going against Corpus, it would just kinda stupid not to bring a weapon to handle nullifier bubbles.  

Almost every frame in the game has the exact same if not similar problem with Nullifiers.  The enemy was designed specifically to stop your powers from effecting them.  

[Jax_Cavalera]

6 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

You left out the first option of your guns to burst the bubble.  If you're going against Corpus, it would just kinda stupid not to bring a weapon to handle nullifier bubbles.  

Almost every frame in the game has the exact same if not similar problem with Nullifiers.  The enemy was designed specifically to stop your powers from effecting them.  

How do you shoot a nullifier bubble through the walls or floor? This change as I explained it in the OP, doesn't prevent their bubble from denying Magnetize effects to those inside of it.. it just prevents it from removing the bubble so those enemies outside of a nullifier's bubble remain affected by it.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jax_Cavalera

[DatDarkOne]

14 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

How do you shoot a nullifier bubble through the walls or floor?

Zenith, Artemis Bow, any bow, and/or weapon with punchthru.  Just answering that specific question although I suspect that you weren't expecting an answer.  😀 

I know from direct experience that the first 3 I mentioned can shoot through walls.  

Anyway, the bubble usually appears through walls where you can shoot it to shrink it to were it doesn't.  If it and the bubble is on the other side of the wall, it won't matter in most cases anyway.  

Edited September 8, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[MagPrime]

If only we had high rate of fire weapons that can destroy the bubbles quickly, or a target located at the top of the bubble that instantly destroys it upon destruction. 

Since we don't have these things, clearly, we must make an already powerful ability blatantly overpowered. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by MagPrime

[CoreXCZ]

Why should Magnetize be an exception? It shouldn't, it will either apply to all abilities or none, no exception for one or two just because warframe is weak.

il y a 14 minutes, MagPrime a dit :

If only we had high rate of fire weapons that can destroy the bubbles quickly, or a target located at the top of the bubble that instantly destroys it upon destruction. 

Since we don't have these things, clearly, we must make an already powerful ability blatantly overpowered. 

You're either blind or I am not sure what. There are targets at the top of bubbles (drone-like flying robot) which upon destruction also completely removes the nullifier bubble, at least until Nullifier won't deploy new bubble with new drone.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Just now, CoreXCZ said:

 

You're either blind or I am not sure what. There are targets at the top of bubbles (drone-like flying robot) which upon destruction also completely removes the nullifier bubble, at least until Nullifier won't deploy new bubble with new drone.

That was blatant sarcasm.

[CoreXCZ]

à l’instant, Omega-Shadowblade a dit :

That was blatant sarcasm.

Not like I care (I always assume people are blind in these cases, it's from experience). The entire topic is silly anyway. Make one exception and it'll become a precedent.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

I think its better to just rework Nullifiers. Has anyone ever wondered why it doubles as a shield? I can understand if its just a nullification field but why does it have to be a shield too? We should just be able to shoot the crewman carrying the thing through the bubble.

[MagPrime]

25 minutes ago, CoreXCZ said:

Why should Magnetize be an exception? It shouldn't, it will either apply to all abilities or none, no exception for one or two just because warframe is weak.

You're either blind or I am not sure what. There are targets at the top of bubbles (drone-like flying robot) which upon destruction also completely removes the nullifier bubble, at least until Nullifier won't deploy new bubble with new drone.

It's happened, it's finally happened. My sarcasm has become so advanced, someone thought I was stupid. 

Bit ruined by you completely missing the part where I said, nearly exact, the same thing about the target at the top of the bubble.

1 minute ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

I think its better to just rework Nullifiers. Has anyone ever wondered why it doubles as a shield? I can understand if its just a nullification field but why does it have to be a shield too? We should just be able to shoot the crewman carrying the thing through the bubble.

But then how do we shoot the bubble to destroy it?

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Just now, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

I think its better to just rework Nullifiers. Has anyone ever wondered why it doubles as a shield? I can understand if its just a nullification field but why does it have to be a shield too? We should just be able to shoot the crewman carrying the thing through the bubble.

Because a threat like that has to actually be a threat if its to hold any weight. The barrier can be taken down fast or ignored by simply going in, but if it wasn't a shield, they would just be a sniper crewman with a weak effect.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

3 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

But then how do we shoot the bubble to destroy it?

You kill the crewman. When it dies, the bubble goes away. I think the bubble actually has more health than the crewman. If you go in the bubble and Arca Plasmor the crewman in the face, it dies immediately but you can't 1 shot the bubble with the Arca Plasmor.

Edited September 8, 2018 by (PS4)mahoshonenfox

[Omega-Shadowblade]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

You kill the crewman. When it dies, the bubble goes away. I think the bubble actually has more health than the crewman. If you go in the bubble and Arca Plasmor the crewman in the face, it dies immediately but you can't 1 shot the bubble with the Arca Plasmor.

yeah that's intended. if you want to one shot the bubble you have to aim. the bubble doesn't have any health, it just reacts to shots. That's why rapid fire practically ignores the shield (phantasma almost instant annihilates it.) and they added the drone for slow weapons.

Edit: For some reason thought this post was talking to me. I'm way to tired, I should be sleeping.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Omega-Shadowblade

[Jax_Cavalera]

10 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Zenith, Artemis Bow, any bow, and/or weapon with punchthru.  Just answering that specific question although I suspect that you weren't expecting an answer.  😀 

I know from direct experience that the first 3 I mentioned can shoot through walls.  

Anyway, the bubble usually appears through walls where you can shoot it to shrink it to were it doesn't.  If it and the bubble is on the other side of the wall, it won't matter in most cases anyway.  

Sorry yeah I shoulda been more specific with that question, what I meant to ask is, how do you shoot from inside a Magnetize bubble to hit the nullifier bubble through a wall where it's clipping. That said, in the case of a frost bubble or magnetize one.. once the nullifier bubble clips through and contacts your ability bubble.. it insta-removes your ability bubble leaving you unprotected til you can shoot it enough through a wall or however to try shrink it back again.

And even when you do that, it only lasts a matter of seconds before it regenerates again to do the same thing to you, unless you abandon guarding the objective to try kill the nullifier responsible which could spell the end of whatever objective you were frantically trying to defend in those scenarios.

@MagPrime I appreciate your attempt at humor, though feel I should at least re-state that you're preaching to the choir. most players would be well aware of how to take out a nullifier field and under most circumstances when the magnetize bubble isn't being removed due to nullifier fields glitching through walls, it's not a problem at all.

DE have made it pretty obvious they don't want nullifier fields to glitch through walls since, in most cases, they resize dynamically to fit the available space of whatever room ./ hallway they are in. They seem to glitch out when the room is large in size, but has a lot of ramps or barrier type walls. In those situations it will push through the walls or floor and so this is the glitch that I am proposing be addressed.

When a nullifier field comes into contact with a Magnetize bubble, it still nullifies the effects of the magnetize ability for enemies located within the confines of the nullie field. Players are unable to recast magnetize or use other abilities if they are inside it.. same as usual and enemy fire originating from within the field is unaffected by the magnetize bubble.

The only thing that would change is the bubble doesn't get removes, so when the player takes out the nullifier, they still have protection against ranged attacks on the objective they are protecting. And most importantly it means that if a nullie field glitches through, it no longer removes the magnetize bubble which would seem to have been the intention of dynamically resizing nullifier fields in the first place.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

14 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I'm not sure if this is a glitch or what's going on but due to how weak mag's armor and hp are, plus how useless a shield tank is against toxin, slash etc. Mag's best line of defense against Corpus is her Magnetize bubbles, which have their own challenges to deal with like getting hit by stray rounds as they're redirected to the center of the bubble.

This ability becomes 100% useless against corpus once nullifiers start spawning in since they insta-remove the Magnetize bubble the moment their own bubble touches it. There are plenty of other warframes that have abilities which, once cast are not instantly removed if touched by a nullifier bubble and this never used to be a huge problem when nullie bubbles were a bit smaller but lately it seems they can randomly scale quite large.

This all results in mag drawing back to her more basic Pull CC skill to try keep the hoards at bay while popping nullie bubbles and I can say from experience that as you get to higher levels where nothing but hoards of nullifiers start to spawn in, her effectiveness drops off quickly.

Proposed Change

• Enemies inside a nullifier bubble do not take damage from Magnetize (including the nullifier)
• Nullifier bubbles no longer remove magnetize bubbles upon contact
• Rounds fired at a player by an enemy located inside both the nullifier AND magnetize bubbles are unaffected by the magnetize bubble

So the only way to stay safe is to deal with the nullifier ( or its bubble), but at least this way you have a little protection from ranged attacks by enemies taking cover under a nullifier bubble.

Use counter pulse aug on polarization with a high duration build. Then easily pop nullies as robots are in a hibernation state and corpus weapons are jammed for up to 12s.

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Sorry yeah I shoulda been more specific with that question, what I meant to ask is, how do you shoot from inside a Magnetize bubble to hit the nullifier bubble through a wall where it's clipping. That said, in the case of a frost bubble or magnetize one.. once the nullifier bubble clips through and contacts your ability bubble.. it insta-removes your ability bubble leaving you unprotected til you can shoot it enough through a wall or however to try shrink it back again. 

And even when you do that, it only lasts a matter of seconds before it regenerates again to do the same thing to you, unless you abandon guarding the objective to try kill the nullifier responsible which could spell the end of whatever objective you were frantically trying to defend in those scenarios.

In this very case, the nullifier becomes a high priority target.  There is only one instance I can think of where you wouldn't see a nullifier enough to shoot it at the expense of the objective. That is Sortie Defense.  Even then you can rez the defense target should it fall after taking care of the Nullie.  

I'm not trying to be an arse, but more trying to look at this from multiple angles.  While I understand your intent, I just feel that Mag shouldn't have any special immunity to nullifiers that other frames can't also have.  Which in the end would pretty much defeat the purpose of the nullifiers as the "threat" it's suppose to be.  

[Wolfways]

I'm surprised nobody has said the most obvious fix. Don't use Mag on defence missions.

Warframes are good for different things. Use them to their advantages.

[DatDarkOne]

18 minutes ago, Wolfways said:

I'm surprised nobody has said the most obvious fix. Don't use Mag on defence missions.

Warframes are good for different things. Use them to their advantages.

Interesting.  I use Mag Prime specifically for Defense missions because she allows me to control the area and stop enemies from shooting at the defense target.  

[Wolfways]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Interesting.  I use Mag Prime specifically for Defense missions because she allows me to control the area and stop enemies from shooting at the defense target.  

Honestly I have no idea what Mag is like, but the OP is talking about having difficulty using Mag in defence missions. It just seems obvious to me to use a different frame instead of asking for a buff.

[DatDarkOne]

7 hours ago, Wolfways said:

Honestly I have no idea what Mag is like, but the OP is talking about having difficulty using Mag in defence missions. It just seems obvious to me to use a different frame instead of asking for a buff.

Not quite fellow Tenno.  OP is talking about Mag having issues with nullifiers.  The same issues that most other frames have with them.  😀 

[Wolfways]

6 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Not quite fellow Tenno.  OP is talking about Mag having issues with nullifiers.  The same issues that most other frames have with them.  😀 

Well, if nullifiers weren't an issue they would be pointless 😉

[Jax_Cavalera]

I use mag for defense as well as it is one of the tasks she excels at. Not many frames have an ability that generates a bubble that will be insta-removed the second a nullifier field clips it.

The only frames I'm aware of are Frost, Mag, Limbo, Nyx, Gara and Vauban. A significant minority out of the total 36 warframes available. Yes nullifiers affect all warframes in the game, that's not the point to this topic.

The issue here is that the select few frames who generate bubbles or similar abilities for defensive purposes against ranged attacks, get removed upon contact with nullifiers destroying their utility as a warframe in some cases completely.

The proposed solution being to keep those abilities active upon contact with the nullifier field and instead just having enemies inside the field immune to any effects of the ability while they are in contact with each-other.