(unpopular opinion?) About those crafting WAIT TIMES

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

Yesterday, when I ended up with the required items to craft Vauban, put it into perspective for me. I've crafted frames before, but I am still very new in real terms, despite having played since the ps4 launch.

So I duly started the craft for the neuroptic etc...and that's 24hrs. 

Now, having the parts crafted, and the blueprint available, I must now wait 3 days for the frame to craft. 

So that's 4 days. 

Of course, we all know this, but still; 4 days...It seems unnecessarily excessive.

I get that the developers hope you'll get fed up and use platinum to speed things up.

But I have a theory that no amount of delay will make any difference to some players decision to use plat. 

Put simply, they aren't going to buy plat no matter what.

Maybe they can't, financially?

Maybe they are a younger player without the means?

Maybe they have a personal distaste for IAP and refuse on principal?

In other words, there are players who will spend money and those who won't, and no amount of frustration the game produces will change that. Being, as I am, over 40, and having played computer games since I was early enough to remember, I hsve fond memories of a time when the idea of waiting 4 days to use an item in game would have been seen as a sign of brain injury on the part of the dev team.

The way the internet has become intertwined inexorably with gaming is both it's greatest improvement and worst drawback.                               

With the ability to release day one patches, regular updates, DLC, IAP, the entire ethos has changed and what was once unacceptable is now routine. 

Now, were the game developers of the 90s, be they the SNES, Megadrive, Ps1 etc...able to use the internet the way devs do today it is likely they too would have taken things down the same path.

But they didn't have that luxury.

So when a game shipped it had to be worthy and they had to earn their money with a great game, not DLC they cut from the main game and gambling loot boxes etc...                     

I know there'll be the argument about the need to stretch out the experience etc...which I don't buy.

Because you can quite easily bypass that artificial barrier by paying.             

If the devs really wanted to lengthen the experience they wouldn't let you pay to skip it.

So it's not about that.

It's purely a design mechanism that hopes to frustrate players into spending real money.                         

Fair enough, in the case of DE, they give us a free game, with nothing behind paywalls, and a huge, detailed game at that.                                                         

So it is different, though I still think they have enough monitised aspects to avoid such a long wait...remember, it is 4 days...4!!!!

Games like CoD, BF, Fifa, NBA, etc...that charge full AAA retail price and then add in artificial barriers and cynical IAPs are totally different and are odious by comparison, in my opinion. 

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by (PS4)RhinoCharging00

[(XBOX)Danowat32]

I've never once come close to being frustrated, especially not enough to use plat to rush the build, there is always multiple other things I want to be doing while something is cooking.

[FlusteredFerret]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Danowat32 said:

I've never once come close to being frustrated, especially not enough to use plat to rush the build, there is always multiple other things I want to be doing while something is cooking.

Same here.

Okay the first couple of frames were a bit frustrating to wait for, as I was still new to the game and excited to play something other than Excalibur. But after a few months, I always had so much to do, quests, alerts, farming resources, levelling up gear, that I sometimes forgot I even had a build going on.

Just lately I've been working on my dojo and researching stuff.

I get that not everyone is the patient type, but I don't think 4 days is too much to wait for a new frame. Even if you can't wait, its only, what, 20-50 plat, to rush the build?

 

Its a free game, so the devs have to look at every avenue they can to encourage players to spend money and I think DE do it in a very reasonable way, compared to some other games I've played.

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, lennieplop60 said:

I don't think people are buying platinum right now just to skip wait times, so I doubt the developers would go bankrupt over removing it

No, but people do buy platinum in general and if they don’t feel like waiting they’ll use whatever they have to rush stuff because they know they can just buy more

[Hypernaut1]

Am I the only one that actually LIKES the crafting times? For me it gives immersion a bit. It makes the items feel a little more tangible IMO. I honestly wouldn't mind longer craft times in even offline sp RPGs. 

[Zimzala]

I am afraid I am at a point in my life that it is truly difficult to see 4 days as 'a long time' from any PoV other than 'bleeding out'.

Thr projects I work on take months and years. Things in my house take weeks to get fixed sometimes. It took the city 18 months to finish ripping up the street in front of my house. Do you know how long it takes to grow some food?

While I realize that the current 'in your hands technology' has tried to teach the world _everything_ has to be in real-time with instant gratification, there is solid science that says people that can successfully put off rewards until they are ready for them are typically more successful in life, so WF to me is a social experiment to a point, I would love to see some stats on plat used to rush things.

So, I have no problems with the current system, it serves it's intended purposes.

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

9 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Am I the only one that actually LIKES the crafting times? For me it gives immersion a bit. It makes the items feel a little more tangible IMO. I honestly wouldn't mind longer craft times in even offline sp RPGs. 

You like crafting times?

So if you had a choice, say you were made CEO of DE, you would willingly keep the 3 day craft time for frames?

[Zimzala]

Just now, (PS4)RhinoCharging00 said:

You like crafting times?

So if you had a choice, say you were made CEO of DE, you would willingly keep the 3 day craft time for frames?

Yes. Yes I would.

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

Just now, Zimzala said:

Yes. Yes I would.

No comment.

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

2 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I am afraid I am at a point in my life that it is truly difficult to see 4 days as 'a long time' from any PoV other than 'bleeding out'.

Thr projects I work on take months and years. Things in my house take weeks to get fixed sometimes. It took the city 18 months to finish ripping up the street in front of my house. Do you know how long it takes to grow some food?

While I realize that the current 'in your hands technology' has tried to teach the world _everything_ has to be in real-time with instant gratification, there is solid science that says people that can successfully put off rewards until they are ready for them are typically more successful in life, so WF to me is a social experiment to a point, I would love to see some stats on plat used to rush things.

So, I have no problems with the current system, it serves it's intended purposes.

It's not so much the wait time, as let's face it nobody is actually sitting around waiting. 

My point was the way it used as a device to frustrate some players, not all, but some. 

And that the end result is to try and frustrate those players into buying plat. 

That was what I was getting at.

[Zimzala]

Just now, (PS4)RhinoCharging00 said:

It's not so much the wait time, as let's face it nobody is actually sitting around waiting. 

My point was the way it used as a device to frustrate some players, not all, but some. 

And that the end result is to try and frustrate those players into buying plat. 

That was what I was getting at.

While impatience is certainly a Plat driver, so are so many other things.

Without actual data, we do not know if Plat is used more for rushing items or buying frames.

DE needs money to survive, individuals have different ways they like to spend money and the Plat system allows that.

I see nothing nefarious for the wait times to 'force' players to spend Plat to go faster, just impatient people.

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Danowat32 said:

I've never once come close to being frustrated, especially not enough to use plat to rush the build, there is always multiple other things I want to be doing while something is cooking.

Me too.

I have never rushed it.

My point was about those players who ARE frustrated and the idea that the developers use that frustration to shoe horn IAP in to take advantage of that.

But I also qualified my remarks with a crucial caveat regarding the free2play nature of Warframe, especially when compared to the practices of full AAA retail price titles like SW:BF2 is Fifa.

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

9 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

While impatience is certainly a Plat driver, so are so many other things.

Without actual data, we do not know if Plat is used more for rushing items or buying frames.

DE needs money to survive, individuals have different ways they like to spend money and the Plat system allows that.

I see nothing nefarious for the wait times to 'force' players to spend Plat to go faster, just impatient people.

Well that's your opinion.

I don't agree, but I also stated that being free2play Warframe can get away with a lot more in my eyes.

I haven't needed to spend a penny in the game and would never need to as I can see all the content for free.

However, I appreciate and admire their work, and the amount of stuff there is for a free2play game, and so I've made a few purchases. 

I bought some armour packs, Obsidian I think, plus several lots of plat; and I feel it is still a great deal compared to what I have gotten out of the game.

I just don't agree that IAP are totally harmless and haven't had a negative impact on gaming.

Edited September 13, 2018 by (PS4)RhinoCharging00

[FlusteredFerret]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)RhinoCharging00 said:

No comment.

 

 

[Zimzala]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)RhinoCharging00 said:

Well that's your opinion.

I don't agree, but I also stated that being free2play Warframe can get away with a lot more in my eyes.

I haven't needed to spend a penny in the game and would never need to as I can see all the content for free.

However, I appreciate and admire their work, and the amount of stuff there is for a free2play game, and so I've made a few purchases. 

I bought some armour packs, Obsidian I think, plus several lots of plat; and I feel it is still a great deal compared to what I have gotten out of the game.

I just don't agree that IAP are totally harmless and haven't had a negative impact on gaming.

I am not claiming any specific thing in the game is 'totally harmless' or 'does not have a negative impact'.

DE cannot please all of the people all of the time, to try is folly.

The developers enact thier vision and the marketplace reacts.

Some consumers will not like to wait for things.

This is not some failing on DE's part, it is simply the design they chose for the game.

Some people wil agree with the design, others won't.

Either way, DE employees have bills to pay and kids to feed, so giving them money means we get more WF.

I simply to not subcribe to the idea DE is doing anything nefarious with the current systems - it is very simple - impatient people can use cash to get things faster.

If a person has 'issues' with patience, IMO, it is not DE's responcibility to cater to that person, it is that person's respocibility to know thier limits and not give DE money they cannot afford.

[Hypernaut1]

51 minutes ago, (PS4)RhinoCharging00 said:

You like crafting times?

So if you had a choice, say you were made CEO of DE, you would willingly keep the 3 day craft time for frames?

Yes. I've never felt the need to rush anything. I appreciate the need to slow down a bit. I like the anticipation of a frame baking. 

I personally think the times are perfect. DE has found a sweet spot for me. Not to long, not too short. 

Worst case I take a break from the game while I wait. It makes crafting feel tangible to me. 

I honestly can't see why anyone would spend plat on rushing if they have better things to spend it on. 

[Vaz2017]

6 hours ago, (PS4)RhinoCharging00 said:

My point was about those players who ARE frustrated and the idea that the developers use that frustration to shoe horn IAP in to take advantage of that.

They're a great source of amusement for me.  Let them be frustrated.  They should try playing EVE Online and having to wait a month for some things to manufacture.

[(XBOX)Eminem2420]

I can understand how crafting wait times can be frustrating, but i can also understand why they are there. I'd venture a guess and say that DE makes plenty of money from impatient Tenno. For that reason, i don't think they would change the wait times. I personally find them to be reasonable except for the weapons that require other weapons to craft. That is annoying and ridiculous. 

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

15 hours ago, Vaz2017 said:

They're a great source of amusement for me.  Let them be frustrated.  They should try playing EVE Online and having to wait a month for some things to manufacture.

The fact you find that amusing is even more amusing. 

Glad to see you support frustrating players in the hope of coercing money from them...which, however you feel, is the unavoidable truth.

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

14 hours ago, (XB1)Eminem2420 said:

I can understand how crafting wait times can be frustrating, but i can also understand why they are there. I'd venture a guess and say that DE makes plenty of money from impatient Tenno. For that reason, i don't think they would change the wait times. I personally find them to be reasonable except for the weapons that require other weapons to craft. That is annoying and ridiculous. 

I don't know how much they make, though I would imagine it's not a huge percentage of their overall income.

But, nonetheless, it still boils down to a deliberate attempt to frustrate SOME players in the hope they'll spend money.

However, as I said, I'm inclined to "cut them some slack" as they have provided a detailed and engaging world for us, and you don't, if you don't want to, need to spend a penny.

My point was really about the more cynical behaviour of companies like EA and Activision.

Edited September 14, 2018 by (PS4)RhinoCharging00

[.BlueSky.]

Well, I wouldn't mind the waiting time or the lack of option to craft in batch. I'm happy enough if they add the option to put in queue, maybe add another "claim" and "+/- queue" when its in progress. The necessity to manually craft -> claim -> craft again just too inefficient to me, those PoE rocks, cipher (usually made those 100-200 in a go), baits, and of course the 24/7 running forma.

[novalery]

Yeah it is frustrating that i have to work for a month till i get my pay... why couldn’t i get paid the moment i do my job. It is also frustrating that i have to wait a few minutes till the waiter bring me my food. They should be on the table the moment i order them. And then theres the tailor that had to work on my shirt for two weeks. And i already pay for that

and what worse is that i can’t put my money into anywhere to make any of the above available faster.

^_^. Sorry. I couldn’t control myself.

 

i’m part of those people who like it that it takes time to build something. It give me the feeling that something is really being build.

Since i started playing i’m always excited when i logged in and hears that my foundry is still working on something. The only thing that frustrated me in this game is if i failed a mission. Waiting for a frame, weapon, ship, or dojo room only makes the gameplay feels more “real” to me

The thing that i hope for is to have a better animation on the foundry. Like make it so that it really look like assembling something.. right now it is just a hologram and then finished product. Nothing in between

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by novalery

[Zimzala]

1 hour ago, (PS4)RhinoCharging00 said:

The fact you find that amusing is even more amusing. 

Glad to see you support frustrating players in the hope of coercing money from them...which, however you feel, is the unavoidable truth.

So, again, someone ascibes some nefarious intent.

It is a straightforward system, laid out form the beginning.

Do you think that free samples at the grocery store are coercing you?

Do you think packaged meals are coercing you into buying them so you can save your time?

Do you think being able to pay for a faster line at the airport is coercing you into purchasing it so you can sleep more?

Really, do you really think the world around you is actually actively coercing you in all of these things, or that perhaps, you should just get enough information and make you own choices and stop letting outside forces dictate your actions?

Not everything in life is instant gratification.

[Oreades]

Think I'm in the "keep it as it is" boat

Cause the option to lower it at lower MR and gradually raise it would ultimately discourage people from gaining MR because there is now a benefit to not doing so. And the option to lower it as the MR raises really isn't "super effective" because at higher MR the wait time is already more "trivial" because you have other weapons/gear to use while you wait. 

The biggest issue is that it can feel pretty oppressive for the first month when you are just starting out. Because crafting your second weapon or your second frame, maybe your third.... just feels like everything stops. Cause there is really nothing else in the game that you want to be doing save for playing with that fancy new weapon. Coupled with the fact that you're currently in a place with Warframe where you probably aren't sure if you really want to spend any money on it (EG Buy Plat). 

About the only thing I could really think of is maybe start off new accounts with a few "rush tokens" to get players over that very early initial slump, kinda like Starter plat but not actually direct plat. And have them only apply to things that take 12 or more hours to craft to keep people from blowing them on a 5min craft. Plus it introduces players to the whole "rushing" thing in a way that doesn't feel like they are being bullied into having to go out and buy plat, so I'd think they would maybe more likely to willingly rush in the future. Where as now the first thing people tell new players is "Never rush anything" and they're not wrong even tho they themselves probably rush things from time to time. 

Cause all you really need to do is just enough to get people past the "Does DE actually want me to play their game or go play something else?" early crafting slump. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Oreades

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

So, again, someone ascibes some nefarious intent.

It is a straightforward system, laid out form the beginning.

Do you think that free samples at the grocery store are coercing you?

Do you think packaged meals are coercing you into buying them so you can save your time?

Do you think being able to pay for a faster line at the airport is coercing you into purchasing it so you can sleep more?

Really, do you really think the world around you is actually actively coercing you in all of these things, or that perhaps, you should just get enough information and make you own choices and stop letting outside forces dictate your actions?

Not everything in life is instant gratification.

Your examples, such as the grocery store or packaged meals, are poorly thought out and have no relevance to the issue of microtransactions. 

If you went to the grocery store and the store deliberate closed all but one of its checkout tills, causing a long backlog of increasingly frustrated customers, and then said anyone who is frustrated at the wait can use these other tills, but only if they are willing to pay for it, I assume you'd be fine with that and would see it as perfectly acceptable?

You would continue to shop there and would have no problem with their practices?

If you would, that's fine; I'm just asking.

If it actually took DE 4 days to build the player models and present them in your foundry, that would be different.

That isn't the case.

You seem to be suggesting it's a benign game mechanic designed to extend play time; I don't think it is.

But, as I already said, I am not really that fussed about DE doing it in a free2play game of such size and detail, as my point was the more cynical way it is done in games that are full AAA retail purchases.

That doesn't mean DE aren't knowingly introducing an artificial barrier to progress, it just has me less concerned or annoyed than it might in the aforementioned AAA title.

Edited September 14, 2018 by (PS4)RhinoCharging00