(unpopular opinion?) About those crafting WAIT TIMES

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

2 hours ago, Zimzala said:

How about those player just taking the time to look through the menus that are available?

Whatever happened to, you know, playing a game and figuring it out, over just having someone list out all the steps to follow?

 

Data? This is just fear mongering. Sure there are vulnerable people and evil people that take advantage. This sentence is s direct indication of you trying to use FUD to scare people into thinking coporations making money is evil. I can read it no other way. This is just you trying to make people think companies making money with products you don't like is 'bad'. 

You are just trying really hard to be picky and it's pretty sad.

If you think I'm the only one who has ever suggested Warframe could be a little more user friendly, or could explain things a bit better, you haven't been paying attention.

As for the stuff about vulnerable people, including children, being exploited and/or manipulated by cynical in game transactions, which you say is "fear mongering" and clearly isn't an issue, hence your appeal for data, which is a contradiction as how can I give you data on something you claim doesn't exist, I say simply that you haven't been paying attention...again.

I'm not doing your research for you, you go and collect then review your own data.

When you've done that tell me that there isn't overwhelming evidence that companies have deliberately, cynically, sought to exploit those particular people for years now, and to the tune of hundreds of millions a year.

Whether you or I fall for it is irrelevant. 

Legislation always seeks to protect the most vulnerable in any situation, not those with the maturity or awareness to avoid lifes pitfalls, and as such if it is perceived to be a toxic and exploitative practice that prays on those vulnerable people it will fall within the remit of the law.

That is not fear mongering, it is simply the truth.

This very month, as Fifa 19 releases world wide, those player in Belgium and the Netherlands are likely to be playing a different version, one with no Fifa points or pack openings (avaliable to buy^) because legislation has deemed the whole practice akin to gambling and as it is targeting under 18s much of the time they've stepped in.

It doesn't get any more real than that.

 

 

[LordPantaloonsthe3rd]

Im fine with the craft times for weapons and frames, early game it really doesnt matter as theres so many weapons and frames to build, just keep getting the stuff you need and throw it all in the oven then level it as it comes out. It does get somewhat annoying when youre out of things to level but I still dont see it as much of a problem.

Now something I do have a gripe about in regards to build time is forma, 24 hours for a forma is way too much. 24 hours for a potato? thats actually fine, because it doubles your mod capacity instantly and doesnt unlevel your items level. A forma though it doesnt do nearly as much and it resets your items level in addition to taking 24 hours to build. I think 12 hours is much more reasonable, when youre running an xp booster you can annihilate any reasonably sized stock of completed forma in a couple of days. Messing with weapons and frames is really all I have left to do aside from rivens and syndicates and its been badly hampered by slow forma build times.

Granted at this point theres not actually many weapons or frames left for me to mess with but I still think its a problem.

[Zimzala]

18 hours ago, (PS4)RhinoCharging00 said:

Legislation always seeks to protect the most vulnerable in any situation, not those with the maturity or awareness to avoid lifes pitfalls, and as such if it is perceived to be a toxic and exploitative practice that prays on those vulnerable people it will fall within the remit of the law.

That is not fear mongering, it is simply the truth.

This very month, as Fifa 19 releases world wide, those player in Belgium and the Netherlands are likely to be playing a different version, one with no Fifa points or pack openings (avaliable to buy^) because legislation has deemed the whole practice akin to gambling and as it is targeting under 18s much of the time they've stepped in.

It doesn't get any more real than that.

 

 

You are completely correct in that the FUD spread by small minds in more than a dozen countries have decided that, once again, game companies are evil and must be destroyed, not because they dd something wrong, but because of the inability for people with small minds to think for themsleves.

This does not make the companies evil, it does not prove evil intent, it ONLY show that people are frightened of things they do not understand and choose to use laws rather than comon sense.

The disconnect is simple. 

These laws and smaill minds choose to create a nanny state rather than educate and inform.

It all comes back to small minds wanting to control everyone so they feel better.

Look at history, they did the same things with comics, music, movies, etc...attempt destroy that which they do not comprehend.

Just because laws are being, does not mean the reasons for those laws are right or just, not does it mean that the people making those laws do not, in fact, have thier own evil agendas to suppress the rest of us.

You, like many, assume that the laws made are there to protect you, rather than just to keep the poeple in power, in power.

This 'gambling' riot about loot boxes is, IMO, just another speed bump on the road set by people who are scared of the world.

I do my own research, I look at the real statistics, this is just another place where people do not want to confront the spectre of mental illness and, instead, blame video game makers.

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

27 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

You are completely correct in that the FUD spread by small minds in more than a dozen countries have decided that, once again, game companies are evil and must be destroyed, not because they dd something wrong, but because of the inability for people with small minds to think for themsleves.

This does not make the companies evil, it does not prove evil intent, it ONLY show that people are frightened of things they do not understand and choose to use laws rather than comon sense.

The disconnect is simple. 

These laws and smaill minds choose to create a nanny state rather than educate and inform.

It all comes back to small minds wanting to control everyone so they feel better.

Look at history, they did the same things with comics, music, movies, etc...attempt destroy that which they do not comprehend.

Just because laws are being, does not mean the reasons for those laws are right or just, not does it mean that the people making those laws do not, in fact, have thier own evil agendas to suppress the rest of us.

You, like many, assume that the laws made are there to protect you, rather than just to keep the poeple in power, in power.

This 'gambling' riot about loot boxes is, IMO, just another speed bump on the road set by people who are scared of the world.

I do my own research, I look at the real statistics, this is just another place where people do not want to confront the spectre of mental illness and, instead, blame video game makers.

I think you are confusing two issues. 

I assume the repeated use of the phrase "small minds" is an indirect dig at me?

You seem to think that legislation designed to restrict exploitative practices are the result of small minded, frightened little people cowering at the world.

Equating the nanny state with this type of legislation is not relevant.

Again, the laws aren't set up to protect the majority, the 90%, those who can see past the bright colours and loud noise; rather, they are to protect those not able to make rational, mature decisions.

That is what these kind of laws are set up for.

A concern has grown out of the way a vunerable group, who are susceptible to manipulation, are being coerced into participating in what amounts to gambling, and it is a particular concern for parents of gullible and easily led children that have discovered this loot box system; these parents have then looked into it and have complained.

We all know that you could allow under 18s to gamble and most would suffer no destructive consequences. 

But some would, and we as a society have decreed that below a certain age people lack the ability to make informed, well thought out decisions. 

This is why they are prohibited from such things as gambling, drinking etc...until they are old enough to make more responsible decisions.

It isn't perfect, it isn't foolproof, but it is the way we do things.

There is nothing nannying or small minded about it.

Without a degree of structure and social cohesion, based upon generally accepted morality, which is where laws are derived, we have a free for all where there are no rules and that will end badly.

You simplifying it to "muh evil corporations" isn't a rebuttal.

I said there are a few, very specific, megacorps, such as E.A, that have been pushing IAPs more and more to the detriment of the experience with the sole intention of fleecing a very specific sub set of players that they know are either;

A) willing to spend a small fortune 

B) can be manipulated into spending a small fortune

That is the vampire corporation mentality I was referring to.

I don't need legislation to protect me, because I see through the bright colours, and nor do you.

But some do...and the alternative to not seeing that they are protected, which is what you seem to be in favour of, is a pretty cold world.

Edited September 19, 2018 by (PS4)RhinoCharging00

[Zimzala]

Just now, (PS4)RhinoCharging00 said:

I assume the repeated use of the phrase "small minds" is an indirect dig at me?

You seem to think that legislation designed to restrict exploitative practices are the result of small minded, frightened little people cowering at the world.

Equating the nanny state with this type of legislation is not relevant.

Again, the laws aren't set up to protect the majority, the 90%, those who can see past the bright colours and loud noise; rather, they are to protect those not able to make rational, mature decisions.

I talk about small minds from the PoV that some people cannot see the forest because of the trees, etc. Some people can see the big picture when other just see a 'bad person taking my money'.

The way you describe the laws is a nanny state - forcing the rest of us to do/not do things that we are fully capable of doing rationally, just because a few cannot. That is a nanny state.

These laws oppress those of us who are rational thinking human beings.

These laws basically place people with mental disabilities in a group that by law, now, becaomes more important than the vast majority of the population, with little to no real impact other than to make the lawmakers and the samll minded fell better. They did NOTHING to help the mentally ill here, just resticted the marketplace for the rest of us.

So yes, IMO, the vast majority of laws that get to the level of regulation minutae that something about gaming loot boxes (and real gambling) are created by frightened little people cowering in fear of the world. This is exactly what I think. Not all laws and regulations, but definately these laws intended to do nothing more than appease the small minded and oppress the rest of us into living in thier small world.

That is inclusive of the crafting time in WF. They are what they are, not 'evil', not 'good', they just are part of the game.

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

19 hours ago, Zimzala said:

I talk about small minds from the PoV that some people cannot see the forest because of the trees, etc. Some people can see the big picture when other just see a 'bad person taking my money'.

The way you describe the laws is a nanny state - forcing the rest of us to do/not do things that we are fully capable of doing rationally, just because a few cannot. That is a nanny state.

These laws oppress those of us who are rational thinking human beings.

These laws basically place people with mental disabilities in a group that by law, now, becaomes more important than the vast majority of the population, with little to no real impact other than to make the lawmakers and the samll minded fell better. They did NOTHING to help the mentally ill here, just resticted the marketplace for the rest of us.

So yes, IMO, the vast majority of laws that get to the level of regulation minutae that something about gaming loot boxes (and real gambling) are created by frightened little people cowering in fear of the world. This is exactly what I think. Not all laws and regulations, but definately these laws intended to do nothing more than appease the small minded and oppress the rest of us into living in thier small world.

That is inclusive of the crafting time in WF. They are what they are, not 'evil', not 'good', they just are part of the game.

Can we just cut to the chase and agree to disagree?

Or, rather, am I right in thinking your position is that you support microtransactions and any exploitative practices arising from their introduction are irrelevant, and any vulnerable person's being exploited by said practices are also irrelevant?

I have yet to see anything from you more nuanced than "big babies have encouraged nannying and made it more difficult for companies like E.A to hide content behind paywalls and earn billions from gambling loot boxes"...these are loot boxes that offer digital items that will be worthless in a year when the next game comes out by the way.

My position, and it's the one I've maintained from the start of this correspondence, is that there are 2 (distinct) types of IAPs/microtransactions being used in modern games.

1st type is the model used by D.E, which sees free2play games, games free at the point of access (that avoid the traditional model and do not require an initial expenditure in a shop or digital store), using IAPs as a substitute for the lost revenue that would have been generated by the more traditional model. 

I am not against this version of IAP, though it isn't without its problems, and many mobile games take liberties in this respect.

The main source of revenue is done by charging for cosmetics, speeding up wait times on crafting etc...but you know all this.

The 2nd type, and the one I am less inclined to indulge, is those placed into games that charge a full retail price, and as such have none of the revenue loss a free2play model incurrs initially. 

These IAP often charge for content deliberately cut from the game, or slow progress to such a degree players pay out of frustration, or they play on weaker minds desperate for the latest gun/skin/character.

They are, in my opinion, when charging real money, toxic, unnecessary, and detrimental to the experience.

If players can use in game currency in a fair way at a reasonable pace to unlock content that is different. 

There is no way that the gradual and incessant creep of IAP, which seem to be the main cash generator, and therefore focus, for games like NBA 2k, Star Wars BF 1 & 2, Fifa etc...can be a good thing for gaming.

I cannot see how anyone can support that position.

Such is the cynical and exploitative nature or these IAP,  and the greed that drives their implementation, that parents and then wider society, and now legislators, have taken notice, looked into it, seen it as gambling, which is something restricted to over 18s, and because millions of kids with the parents credit card play Fifa etc...it has been deemed underage gambling and will eventually, I'm sure, be banned outright.

Which is great.

E.A include them for one reason only...to profit from them financially.

Simple.

It isn't for the players benefit.

It isn't to make the product better value for money.

Such is the reliance on IAP, and the vast revenue generated, I see no reason why E.A can't make Fifa, or at the very least an Ultimate Team standalone, free2play.

They can, at least to a degree, use IAP in that situation as cynically as the want.

If not, and they still want £/$/€ 50 initially, they are going to continue to be seen as anti consumer.

The game can;

A) replace real money with in game currency and buy the packs they way

B) Do away with it entirely and find a better system.

Had E.A not been so relentless, so greedy, pushing their luck more and more each year, they may well hsve avoided all this.

To recap:

IAP are not inherently bad when done right, with restraint, and as a counter weight to a "free at the point access" title, especially one as large, detailed, and sophisticated as Warframe.

IAP are inherently bad when placed into games that already cost full AAA retail price and are used to rip people off buying stuff that was withheld from the game, or to slow progress to such a frustrating degree players pay out of sheer annoyance, or in glorified casino games where nobody knows the odds involved and where manipulation is clearly a concern.

There is nothing authoritarian about driving greedy practices from entertainment, especially ones that are cynical enough to try and manipulate children.

I would add that, when done in way that offers genuine value for money, is respectful to the player, and is not original content cut and repackaged, DLC is a different issue.

DLC can be, and often is, just another way to screw the player, so it must be done right.

A good example is the GTA4 DLC, or the story details revealed in The Last of Us DLC.

Edited September 20, 2018 by (PS4)RhinoCharging00

[(PSN)wolf-MAN010]

tbh i wish we could build more stuff like forma at once but the waiting time is okay to me

[Zimzala]

4 hours ago, (PS4)RhinoCharging00 said:

Can we just cut to the chase and agree to disagree?... 

Probably not.

Your opinions on in game purchases do not seem unreasonable at the high level - give reasonble things for purchases.

Thing is, humans can never agree on what is reasonable.

You seem to be convinced that paying money for ephemeral entertainment is somehow a bad thing - 'worthless when the next game comes out' - on some rampage to take down the 'evil' EA empire for monetizing things in a failed manner, convinced the 'big companies' are all out to exploit us.

I prefer ephemeral entertainment. I prefer to pay companies to make things that I can enjoy for a while and then have to buy new things. Keeps the economy moving, pays game makers to make more games. I love it.

I do, in fact, think that the magority of the gamer rage against these comanies is, in fact, immature dribble.

Why?

Because all you have to do as a consumer is not buy the product. Period. Your own examples prove that with what some of the companies have done in the marketplace after failing with some products.

What happens is that gamers allow peer presure to convince themselves they have to have a game and then try to change the rules to get the game and the items in the game, even if they cannot afford the game. Peer Presure. Not evil game companies, other gamers convincing thier peers to spend money on things they cannot afford and shaming them for not having the best items.

It happens eve here in WF, look at the rage right now about people not playing th game 'the right way' all over these forums.

Taking personal responsibility for one's fiscal choices is the issue here. People are trying to blame thier own lack of self control to avoid peer presure on advertising and monetization and make laws to prevent the rest of us from enjoying things we like.

The calls for legislation here are led by pure FUD, just like with comics, movies, Magic the Gathering, and PnP role-playing games, by small minded people scared of the world at large.

So no, I will not agree to disagree. I have been vocal about these 'loot boxes' since they first appeared in City of Heroes. I love the whole idea and I think those that don't are simply angry they cannot acquire the virtual items they want, they way they want, not thet the system is bad. People that do not like these systems are welcome to not spend resources on them, nothing is forcing them other than thier own brain chemistry.

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

On 2018-09-20 at 3:55 PM, Zimzala said:

Probably not.

Your opinions on in game purchases do not seem unreasonable at the high level - give reasonble things for purchases.

Thing is, humans can never agree on what is reasonable.

You seem to be convinced that paying money for ephemeral entertainment is somehow a bad thing - 'worthless when the next game comes out' - on some rampage to take down the 'evil' EA empire for monetizing things in a failed manner, convinced the 'big companies' are all out to exploit us.

I prefer ephemeral entertainment. I prefer to pay companies to make things that I can enjoy for a while and then have to buy new things. Keeps the economy moving, pays game makers to make more games. I love it.

I do, in fact, think that the magority of the gamer rage against these comanies is, in fact, immature dribble.

Why?

Because all you have to do as a consumer is not buy the product. Period. Your own examples prove that with what some of the companies have done in the marketplace after failing with some products.

What happens is that gamers allow peer presure to convince themselves they have to have a game and then try to change the rules to get the game and the items in the game, even if they cannot afford the game. Peer Presure. Not evil game companies, other gamers convincing thier peers to spend money on things they cannot afford and shaming them for not having the best items.

It happens eve here in WF, look at the rage right now about people not playing th game 'the right way' all over these forums.

Taking personal responsibility for one's fiscal choices is the issue here. People are trying to blame thier own lack of self control to avoid peer presure on advertising and monetization and make laws to prevent the rest of us from enjoying things we like.

The calls for legislation here are led by pure FUD, just like with comics, movies, Magic the Gathering, and PnP role-playing games, by small minded people scared of the world at large.

So no, I will not agree to disagree. I have been vocal about these 'loot boxes' since they first appeared in City of Heroes. I love the whole idea and I think those that don't are simply angry they cannot acquire the virtual items they want, they way they want, not thet the system is bad. People that do not like these systems are welcome to not spend resources on them, nothing is forcing them other than thier own brain chemistry.

You just don't want to listen, do you?

I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

I've said from the start, in 4 different replies, that my issue is with the very specific sub set of IAP that are shoe horned into AAA titles with the purpose of fleecing gullible youngsters...why can't you understand that?

You keep bleating on about personal choice, as if the billions made from lootboxes imply it's a tiny, miniscule minority spending pennies. 

I don't care about your philosophic waffling. 

IAPs in full AAA titles are a way to bleed money from the customer, which is not a positive aspect of gaming. 

That's it.

I'm not arguing with you anymore as you cannot grasp this fundamental point that I've been making for days now.

I appreciate your replies, but I'm out.

[Zimzala]

On 2018-09-23 at 5:02 AM, (PS4)RhinoCharging00 said:

You just don't want to listen, do you?

I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

I've said from the start, in 4 different replies, that my issue is with the very specific sub set of IAP that are shoe horned into AAA titles with the purpose of fleecing gullible youngsters...why can't you understand that?

You keep bleating on about personal choice, as if the billions made from lootboxes imply it's a tiny, miniscule minority spending pennies. 

I don't care about your philosophic waffling. 

IAPs in full AAA titles are a way to bleed money from the customer, which is not a positive aspect of gaming. 

That's it.

I'm not arguing with you anymore as you cannot grasp this fundamental point that I've been making for days now.

I appreciate your replies, but I'm out.

Wow, so much emotion over a few words about money and gaming.

And some decent back-handed insults, but they could have been better. Anyone can read my stuff and tell I am just dribbling opinoins.

I understood your PoV a long time ago. It is not hard to understand - you don't like the way some game companies choose to make money.

I do not agree about the 'fleecing gullible younsters' being a primary intent.

Since I will not _agree_, you seem to think I do not _understand_.

For some reason, you think that repeating the fact you dislike the IAPs in some games will make me agree wth your outlook, I guess.

This anger people have about game companies, that bring them joy and enteratinment, but are not allowed to make a lot of money, is just silly.

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

56 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Wow, so much emotion over a few words about money and gaming.

And some decent back-handed insults, but they could have been better. Anyone can read my stuff and tell I am just dribbling opinoins.

I understood your PoV a long time ago. It is not hard to understand - you don't like the way some game companies choose to make money.

I do not agree about the 'fleecing gullible younsters' being a primary intent.

Since I will not _agree_, you seem to think I do not _understand_.

For some reason, you think that repeating the fact you dislike the IAPs in some games will make me agree wth your outlook, I guess.

This anger people have about game companies, that bring them joy and enteratinment, but are not allowed to make a lot of money, is just silly.

I am now convinced you are a troll.

You trivialize or minimise many points, either through ignorance or as a juvenile attempt to score cheap points.

As for the "so much emotion" comment, I see self awareness isn't your forte. 

You are the one who went on a crazed, impassioned rant whilst I simply laid out my position with clarity and calmness.

At no point did I say I personally felt exploited, or that I was being fleeced, yet you seemed to intentionally disregard this fact.

Time and time again I referenced those being manipulated and exploited and how this lead to the current situation.

I've laid out my position, in fact I've done it 4 times, at length, and there is nothing more to say.

You have an opinion, I don't agree with it.

I have an opinion, you don't agree with it.

I don't intend on arguing any more.

Re-read the thread again, from the start of our interaction...you'll be surprised how different it reads when you take a step back and come at it afresh.

That's really all I have to say to you on this issue.

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, (PS4)RhinoCharging00 said:

I am now convinced you are a troll.

You trivialize or minimise many points, either through ignorance or as a juvenile attempt to score cheap points.

As for the "so much emotion" comment, I see self awareness isn't your forte. 

You are the one who went on a crazed, impassioned rant whilst I simply laid out my position with clarity and calmness.

At no point did I say I personally felt exploited, or that I was being fleeced, yet you seemed to intentionally disregard this fact.

Time and time again I referenced those being manipulated and exploited and how this lead to the current situation.

I've laid out my position, in fact I've done it 4 times, at length, and there is nothing more to say.

You have an opinion, I don't agree with it.

I have an opinion, you don't agree with it.

I don't intend on arguing any more.

Re-read the thread again, from the start of our interaction...you'll be surprised how different it reads when you take a step back and come at it afresh.

That's really all I have to say to you on this issue.

Wow. You sure do take things seriously and personally for an anonymous game forum.

Simply because I don't agree with you, refuse to change my outlook, and continue bring up my PoV on the matter, I am a crazed troll? Rich.

I don't recall implying you were manipulated or impacted - you seem to be trying to protect some portion of the gaming population that cannot defend themselves or something, a noble outlook. 

No one is forcing you to interact with me or my 'philosophical waffling'.

You reference the manipulated and exploited with no data, no facts, just FUD and anecdotal perceptions, then call me a troll for seeing through it, when in reality you are just mad because I won't agree with you.

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

On 2018-09-24 at 4:43 PM, Zimzala said:

Wow. You sure do take things seriously and personally for an anonymous game forum.

Simply because I don't agree with you, refuse to change my outlook, and continue bring up my PoV on the matter, I am a crazed troll? Rich.

I don't recall implying you were manipulated or impacted - you seem to be trying to protect some portion of the gaming population that cannot defend themselves or something, a noble outlook. 

No one is forcing you to interact with me or my 'philosophical waffling'.

You reference the manipulated and exploited with no data, no facts, just FUD and anecdotal perceptions, then call me a troll for seeing through it, when in reality you are just mad because I won't agree with you.

Please, kid, get a grip.

I'm not mad because you won't agree with me.

The fact you have taken that from my comment shows me you are not very bright.

I spelt it out for you, 4 times, in a variety of ways, using simplistic language, and still...still...s...t...i...l...l...you don't get it.

I don't care if you agree with me, I've never been trying to convince you of anything. 

I've simply tried to explain my position, and time and time again you seem unable to distinguish between an abstract, evidence based approach versus personal experience.

If I made my "personal feelings" known it was only in the rarest of occasions and only to reinforce a broader point.

I don't care if you change your mind, and I don't care what you think of me.

So please, stop this circular nonsense and find a topic that is mentally engaging...instead of sending drivel my way in some pitiful attempt to score points.

There are no philosophical or educational benefits to furthering this correspondence. 

Therefore, I shall ignore you from now on.

 

[Noabettiet]

On 2018-09-13 at 11:53 AM, (PS4)RhinoCharging00 said:

(words)

 

buff the experience/fun of playing, not the time it takes, is that it?

I agree.
Sorry if this came out as a late reply, but simply put, the crafting system is among the most early introductions to warframe and a bit of the back bone for it too.
Early in the game beta, there was none. I am not sure what came first, that or the wall running.

Bottom line, this isn't as black and white as i'd like, hence the thread. In a way, getting something that cost us so much to acquire, do make for a fulfilling experience after finishing getting them.
But at the same time, it is a fleeting experience. Unless you already had an emotional attachment to it, already loved the thing you were hunting for, you will quickly forget about it and it will become fodder. 

 

Reminder, that your experience and perspective differs depending on your age and experiences. Younger aged players MIGHT be there more for the pew pew, than a the crafting, so it makes sense that this doesn't concern them. 
Point i was trying to make is, making it progressively harder or easier as you master more weapons. It mixes up things a bit and perhaps fixes the long running problems of having to craft 2 different weapons to build 1 weapon. 

Edited October 2, 2018 by Noabettiet