SordidDreams Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) He's now a worse Nova. - damage reduction on self - crowd control - debuff enemies to take double damage - teleport That's Nova's kit. Difference is, Nova's CC and debuff are a single ability that covers a vastly greater area and lasts much longer. Unlike Nezha's, her CC is also effective against bosses and can be modded with negative power strength to speed enemies up rather than slow them down. In addition, she has a very effective nuke ability that Nezha lacks entirely. Pretty much the only thing Nezha does better is the self damage reduction, but Nova's CC more than makes up for that. The rework has succeeded in making Nezha better and more fun to play, however his main problem still remains: There's another frame that does what he does better. Skin's gorgeous, though. I wish I could use it on Excal, whose physique it matches better anyway. Edit: After playing Nezha some more I think I've narrowed down the specific reasons why he feels so underwhelming to play: Firstly, CC is arbitrarily ineffective against certain enemies. Bosses, kuva guardians, bursas, and probably others I haven't fought yet (juggernauts, I would assume); generally exactly the enemies that you want to CC the most. Also, the CC is a toggle, which is also bad. You CC a group, more enemies come in, so you press the CC button again, but instead of CC-ing the new enemies, it removes the existing CC from the old group. It does the opposite of what you want half of the time. And no, the slam does not deal damage. It deals much less than a single bullet from my grakata, and that goes BRRRRRRRT. The damage is a fake stat that only exists in order to confuse new players about the purpose of the ability. The real purpose of the slam is to make the CC less useful, which is bad because it's already a lot less useful than a lot of other CC in the game (such as, oh I don't know, Nova's). Secondly, the frisbee has a mind of its own and goes wherever the hell it wants. I mean, look at this! It's hopeless! Nezha's actually able to deal tremendous damage if the conditions are just right due to Reaping Chakram, which doubles the frisbee's damage for each enemy hit. So if I spear 8 level 155 corrupted bombards close together and chuck a frisbee in there, six of them die almost instantly, but then the other two take forever because there are no more enemies to multiply the damage off of. Such inconsistency and seemingly random damage spikes are bad by themselves, and of course outside the simulacrum getting a group together in such a way as to be able to pull this off is rare. Usually the frisbee hits one or two enemies, doing negligible damage, and that's it. This also makes its damage-doubling debuff really annoying and fiddly to apply (in contrast to, again, Nova's). Thirdly, having a dual-purpose damage/teleport button is really annoying. I couldn't count the number of times I accidentally teleported when I meant to chuck a new frisbee, because the old one flew off god knows where and I thought it'd disappeared already. And finally, having to constantly renew the fire trail is annoying. It's an ability that you want on all the time, mostly for the looks since its damage is also a fake stat and its CC is worthless as it applies to enemies that you're already running away from, so there's no good reason to periodically make the player press the button. So, my solution: Make CC apply a slow if the enemy can't be hard-CCed. Remove the slam, pressing the button again spears new enemies. Improve frisbee targeting, both in going where the player is pointing and also seeking enemies on its own after bouncing. Change the damage boost for hitting multiple enemies from exponential growth to diminishing returns while massively buffing base damage to reduce damage inconsistency. Make the boost linger for a while after the frisbee ends so that it's applied to the next one. Allow throwing new frisbees even if previous ones are still going. Move the fire trail to the frame's passive, put teleport on its button instead (and probably swap frisbee and teleport, because it makes no sense to unlock teleport and have nothing to teleport to). When teleporting with multiple frisbees present, choose one closest to where the player is aiming. Or just have a teleport ability that doesn't rely on the frisbee and goes where the player is aiming, which is less flavorful/gimmicky and more practical, probably a better idea overall. There, done. You're welcome, DE. Edited September 17, 2018 by SordidDreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 well someone is just a negative nelly today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trowicia Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) >still calling Nezha a "she" when his deluxe skin assets prove otherwise To the person below that was the ONLY one that quoted my misperception, I hope you got the attention and farmed rep you need. Edited September 14, 2018 by Trowicia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LascarCapable Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Nezha does not have the flexibility of wormhole and M-Prime. But at least he's not made in paper-mache like Nova is (thanks to Warding Halo). I think you're asking for too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Pretty sure you could make most Warframes sound like other Warframes if you strip them down to bare minimums like that. Nova and Nezha have these similarities, yes, but they have very different aspects to those similarities . Damage reduction on self: Nova's damage reduction has to be built for if she's to receive the same kind of DR as Nezha, and prevents her from entering the thick of it because doing so reduces the damage reduction - it's a boon to help her long-range abilities. Nezha's is set at 90% consistently and is designed to encourage aggressive play. Crowd Control: Nezha's main CC is a hard CC in the form of Divine Spears, whereas Nova's is soft CC in the form of Molecular Prime. The former turns enemies in a small area off, whereas the latter affects a wider area, but renders them still capable of actions. Debuff enemies to take double damage: Nezha's also provides a little healing, energy and damage, plus that's what his teleport is bound to whereas Nova's does soft CC and the debuff, but to a wider range. Teleport: Nezha's costs 25 energy, has the other benefits mentioned but very limited range, whereas Nova's can transport you, enemies and teammates far further, but at a cost of 75 energy and none of the other benefits. Details are important. Nezha is, at best, a far more aggressive version of Nova, with better DR, mobility and sustained DPS (thanks to fire walker), but lesser CC and burst DPS. Nova could be called a defensive version of Nezha, which could be worse or better depending on the situation and your playstyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SordidDreams Posted September 13, 2018 Author Share Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, D20 said: Nezha does not have the flexibility of wormhole and M-Prime. But at least he's not made in paper-mache like Nova is (thanks to Warding Halo). I think you're asking for too much. That's my point, though. Yeah he's durable, but if you want durability, there are better frames for that. And he doesn't have much to offer beyond that, even with the rework. Way I see it, there are two types of frames in WF. Generalists and specialists. Generalists are good in a wide variety of situations and mission types but don't really shine anywhere, while specialists are typically regarded as useless, but they do have a very specific niche where they are the best pick. Nyx, for instance, is great in the Razoback fight due to being able to Mind Control the bursas instead of having to kill and hack them. She's also great for the "complete a survival without killing an enemy" riven challenge, since enemies under the effect of Chaos don't count as allies, so them killing each other doesn't fail the challenge. If you want a Prodman poster, you go Ash with Fatal Teleport and Covert Lethality. Nekros is a resource farmer. Zephyr is fantastic for moving around the Plains quickly, such as when looking for wisps. And so on. Now I do think this is good game design. There are only a handful of gameplay roles, you have your DPS, tank, healer, buffer, CC, stealth, and that's about it, and there are only so many hybrids you can make before you run out of ideas and start repeating yourself. With 36 warframes and counting, repetition is inevitable. And it's okay to have a frame that's a worse version of another if they have a situation where they shine, a reason to pick them at least once in a while. Nezha's issue is that he doesn't have that. Being a worse Nova would be fine if he was a specialist useful in a specific situation. But he isn't, and that's just too bad, because the skin is oh so pretty, and I'd love to have a reason to use it more. Edited September 13, 2018 by SordidDreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorClipClop Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 35 minutes ago, SordidDreams said: There's another frame that does what he does better. Nezha also heals, provides Energy restoration and cleanses Status. Also he can run into combat and not be on a timer to imminent death like Nova is(a handful of seconds with Null Star wearing down and she's super vulnerable). Nezha has hard CC where Nova only has a slow, which is significant but not absolute. Nezha has a reliable way of proccing status effects on targets, opening channels for things like Condition Overload and Healing Return immediately. 1 minute ago, SordidDreams said: Yeah he's durable, but if you want durability, there are better frames for that. I don't understand. Now you're comparing him to frames that aren't Nova. You don't get to discount a frame by saying they're a worse version of the best parts of multiple frames put together. That's like saying Excal is worthless because Mesa can deal damage and Mirage can blind. If you're comparing Nezha to Nova, stick with that comparison. If you want to switch to comparing Nezha to other more durable frames (and you're right, there are more durable frames) you have to drop the Nova argument to pick up the one where you hold aloft Rhino or Inaros etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SordidDreams Posted September 13, 2018 Author Share Posted September 13, 2018 1 minute ago, SenorClipClop said: Nezha also heals, provides Energy restoration and cleanses Status. Also he can run into combat and not be on a timer to imminent death like Nova is(a handful of seconds with Null Star wearing down and she's super vulnerable). Nezha has hard CC where Nova only has a slow, which is significant but not absolute. Nezha has a reliable way of proccing status effects on targets, opening channels for things like Condition Overload and Healing Return immediately. Now that you mention it, isn't it strange that Nezha, who is very durable, has hard CC that he doesn't need, while the squishy Nova only has soft CC that leaves her vulnerable? 3 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said: Now you're comparing him to frames that aren't Nova. No I'm not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorClipClop Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Just now, SordidDreams said: Now that you mention it, isn't it strange that Nezha, who is very durable, has hard CC that he doesn't need, while the squishy Nova only has soft CC that leaves her vulnerable? No, it isn't. That's one of the things he does well. He's got mobility, hard CC, support and he can take a few hits. Rhino has a giant extra health bar and can hard CC in huge areas, but you don't seem to have a critique of that. Nova is squishy and her CC is somewhat transient, fitting the glass cannon archetype that's been in video games for ages. She needs to be a little more careful as a trade-off for her high damage. 5 minutes ago, SordidDreams said: No I'm not. 13 minutes ago, SordidDreams said: Yeah he's durable, but if you want durability, there are better frames for that. You sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyori Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 15 minutes ago, SordidDreams said: With 36 warframes and counting, repetition is inevitable You answered your own.... thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinKenshin Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 We have 35+ frames and you think every single one of them would be unique and does a specific job? Stop comparing frames to every single details, nezha is in no way similar to nova playstyle-wise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZodiacShinryu Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 20 minutes ago, SordidDreams said: With 36 warframes and counting, repetition is inevitable. And it's okay to have a frame that's a worse version of another if they have a situation where they shine, a reason to pick them at least once in a while. The problem I see here is that the game isn't hard enough for this to matter. It is the wrong mental approach for picking your loadout. Ultimately the frames only need to differ from each other enough to set them apart not to be better than another. You don't need a stealth frame to complete a spy likewise you don't need a kill frame to complete a kill objective, so you are free to pick what you feel like. You pick the frame that has a combination of skills that fit your playstyle. On paper there is always going to be a "best" in a field/statistic that if you are looking for pure efficiency you would be remise to ignore over everything else (that limits the number of playable frames to like 7-10 at best btw). If you want to play your favorite frame because they just feel right when you play them because of the playstyle the abilities enhance/cover; Do it! If you want to make the mission simple and straightforward, then play the meta. Sometimes those little differences in the abilities of your favorite frame and the mismatched mission objectives is enough to bring about a satisfying amount of enjoyment and challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EinheriarJudith Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 last i checked nezha is nezha and no one else. but that could just be me ~_^. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SordidDreams Posted September 13, 2018 Author Share Posted September 13, 2018 37 minutes ago, GinKenshin said: We have 35+ frames and you think every single one of them would be unique and does a specific job? 58 minutes ago, SordidDreams said: With 36 warframes and counting, repetition is inevitable. Yes, clearly I expect every single one of them to be unique. 🙄 26 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said: The problem I see here is that the game isn't hard enough for this to matter. It is the wrong mental approach for picking your loadout. Ultimately the frames only need to differ from each other enough to set them apart not to be better than another. You don't need a stealth frame to complete a spy likewise you don't need a kill frame to complete a kill objective, so you are free to pick what you feel like. You pick the frame that has a combination of skills that fit your playstyle. On paper there is always going to be a "best" in a field/statistic that if you are looking for pure efficiency you would be remise to ignore over everything else (that limits the number of playable frames to like 7-10 at best btw). If you want to play your favorite frame because they just feel right when you play them because of the playstyle the abilities enhance/cover; Do it! If you want to make the mission simple and straightforward, then play the meta. Sometimes those little differences in the abilities of your favorite frame and the mismatched mission objectives is enough to bring about a satisfying amount of enjoyment and challenge. I see what you mean, but I have to disagree that it's the wrong approach. At its core WF is a game about progression. You kill enemies who drop loot that you pick up and spend on upgrades to make your numbers bigger to kill enemies faster. Getting more and more effective and efficient is what WF is all about. And it seems to me the meta reflects that, steadily shifting toward faster and faster clearing with bigger and more effecive AoE abilities and weapons. If you look at WF a few years ago and WF today, we have a much faster-paced game on our hands. Now yes, you could ignore the meta like you suggest. But what would that result in? Your teammates would just leave you in the dust with nothing to do but pick up loot from enemies that are long dead. And sure, you could solve that problem by just playing alone, but that also diminishes the fun a lot. It seems to me playing against the meta in WF would be kinda like driving at a leisurely pace while playing a racing game. Yes, technically you can do it, but you'll miss out on all the action and fun. Going fast is kinda the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZodiacShinryu Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 2 hours ago, SordidDreams said: I see what you mean, but I have to disagree that it's the wrong approach. At its core WF is a game about progression. You kill enemies who drop loot that you pick up and spend on upgrades to make your numbers bigger to kill enemies faster. Getting more and more effective and efficient is what WF is all about. And it seems to me the meta reflects that, steadily shifting toward faster and faster clearing with bigger and more effecive AoE abilities and weapons. If you look at WF a few years ago and WF today, we have a much faster-paced game on our hands. Now yes, you could ignore the meta like you suggest. But what would that result in? Your teammates would just leave you in the dust with nothing to do but pick up loot from enemies that are long dead. And sure, you could solve that problem by just playing alone, but that also diminishes the fun a lot. It seems to me playing against the meta in WF would be kinda like driving at a leisurely pace while playing a racing game. Yes, technically you can do it, but you'll miss out on all the action and fun. Going fast is kinda the point. But that is the crux issue. As risky as it sounds (because there are huge risks), Warframe needs a more refined matchmaking system. People with two different - and in this case fairly opposite - mindsets are not likely to play well together in broad terms. You can't have people that want to 'walk/hike a mile' with people that want to 'run/sprint/race a mile', it just will never work. So having a system that players can opt into to at very least to match them with people more their mindset would alleviate some problems for simple random public games. That said, even now, you have full control of your own experience in Warframe with the recruit tab (though I personally would like this tab streamlined too), not just playing alone. You are free to disagree with my opinion that it is the wrong mindset to want to try to 'make every frame meta applicable' but not only is it virtually impossible (without making the frames skins on base archetypes; super boring) but there is a logical fault in it and kind of missing the point. All games have a natural progression to them, some more free than others but even on non-meta frames you are progressing. You kill things, do objectives, complete task, and get loot and rewards all for the sake of boosting yourself. A Nezha today is not going to be the same Nezha in the future because there very well could be things later that compliment the playstyle better so on and so forth (this is especially true of newer players). As such because Warframes are your base element you can progress on each of them individually. It is then you who decides how you want to tackle a task. A "meta" is always going to exist and the public is always going to gravitate to it (generally because people value time over fun in the first place; than there are people who actually need it because they don't possess the skills to progress without it) but you don't have to play it. The game is not so hard you can't complete every task without a meta build if you actually take the time to learn the game; the frames themselves are almost a difficulty slider depending on how you want to experience the game. Simply, I am sick of hearing people saying the game is too easy because <insertloadouthere> in <insertsituationhere> because they all tend to be meta circumstances. But that is the point of the META! To make things easy! Its like you went into a game, hacked the game or equipped the strongest gear/one-hit weapon then complain that you can't enjoy yourself. You did it to yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SordidDreams Posted September 14, 2018 Author Share Posted September 14, 2018 (edited) 55 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said: it is the wrong mindset to want to try to 'make every frame meta applicable' I agree, which is why I said that frames should be meta-applicable or have a niche use. 55 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said: even on non-meta frames you are progressing. You kill things, do objectives, complete task, and get loot and rewards all for the sake of boosting yourself. True, the trouble is some frames allow you to progress farther than others. A Nezha is just never going to be as good at being a Nova as Nova, no matter how many formas you sink into him. Which is a shame because I actually do quite enjoy his slightly different take on the same gameplay role, but he just isn't good enough at it to justify picking him. Not only is he not as strong, his abilities also have smaller AoE and lower duration, so you have to work a lot harder than if you're playing Nova. That seems backwards to me. I'm not a professional game designer, but my intuition tells me working harder should produce better results, not worse. 55 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said: A "meta" is always going to exist and the public is always going to gravitate to it (generally because people value time over fun in the first place Or maybe because using time efficiently is more fun, especially in a game where becoming more effective and efficient is the whole point. 55 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said: the frames themselves are almost a difficulty slider depending on how you want to experience the game That seems a bit redundant given that there already is a difficulty slider in the form of enemy levels. 55 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said: Simply, I am sick of hearing people saying the game is too easy because <insertloadouthere> in <insertsituationhere> because they all tend to be meta circumstances. But that is the point of the META! To make things easy! Its like you went into a game, hacked the game or equipped the strongest gear/one-hit weapon then complain that you can't enjoy yourself. You did it to yourself! I agree that hearing that kind of complaint is a bit annoying, but I don't think you're placing blame correctly here. Warframe is a stat-based game, not a skill-based one. The whole point is to build ever more effective loadouts. It's what you're supposed to do. And if a game that's played correctly becomes less fun as a result, well, that would indicate some serious problems with its design IMO. Edited September 14, 2018 by SordidDreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZodiacShinryu Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 36 minutes ago, SordidDreams said: I agree, which is why I said that frames should be meta-applicable or have a niche use. But "niche" is part of a meta equation... You can create niche situations from anything right now, without changing a single thing about a warframe. What you want is niche aspect that is dominant enough to be meta because without that there isn't a reason to pick them. DE adds an enemy type a mission type that takes 200% damage from Heat then you add Ember and all her Heat majesty and Nezha for all his Heat control/support and you get top picks with Ember boosting Heat damage even more along with melting everything and Nezha supporting and laying traps everywhere. The niches are there now but they are just not overcoming a basic meta because a meta's very purpose is to limit for efficiency. Then there are just general picks like Trinity, Harrow, and Banshee which all have extremely powerful support aspects that can synergize with just about everything else. 50 minutes ago, SordidDreams said: A Nezha is just never going to be as good at being a Nova as Nova But Nezha isn't Nova so why should he play as good or better than Nova. Sounds like you are trying to enforce a style on a tool that isn't meant to do that in that way. Myself, personally, have never played Nezha like Rhino or Nova (because then I would've just picked Rhino or Nova). I should do some testing but technically you could use them all together for certain results. Its like the same situation when people were like "why pick Saryn (2.0) when you could just pick Nova?" Maybe because they play differently? You could still use them together and get simple mass area effective health reduction on enemies for a combined 1/4 enemy ehp (and explosions galore). 54 minutes ago, SordidDreams said: Or maybe because using time efficiently is more fun, especially in a game where becoming more effective and efficient is the whole point. First I'm not speaking of huge efficiency differences. For example, clearing a mission 1min faster does not necessarily equate to more fun especially if you are likely using a meta method which generally involves minimal effort anyway. I picked Volt to run a capture faster to clear it faster and simply not because Speed Volt is necessarily fun (personally Jet Stream Zephyr is a more interesting speed pick but she has her meta/niche uses already). I am sure people enjoy pure efficiency but that is a drop in the ocean of thought just like everything else. But if people enjoy the meta they probably already like the frame in the meta rather than spend time to complain about one that is not. My personal opinion, I go meta(ish) when I'm farming to try to limit the amount of time I spend on boring simple tasks to get to what I want so I can then go have fun. When I'm just doing random things I create the experience I want so I can have fun. If my pick was specifically going to take a significant amount of time in comparison to a meta pick I probably would have a particular reason for picking it in the first place like a specific self-enforced challenge. I repeat, there is no such mission that necessitates such a huge time difference if you plan accordingly with any frame pick but things can be more difficult depending on those picks. 1 hour ago, SordidDreams said: That seems a bit redundant given that there already is a difficulty slider in the form of enemy levels. Which caps out ignoring endless and the wait that involves. Stat bloating isn't always fun (for players or the enemy for that matter). I have said it before and I will say it again, I have been in 2-4hr survivals with all the stat bloat that entails and it wasn't fun; it was hours of mind numbness. Some people like it others don't, that's life. But you want a bit a flavor in your Spy missions? You could try a non-stealth frame for a more immediate change. You could also use different weapons or different styles. Warframe basically lets you do anything you want so you are free to make your own challenges. You can collect everything in the game but what is the point if you can't have fun with what you collect? Your job in real life isn't going to care that you have everything in Warframe. 1 hour ago, SordidDreams said: Warframe is a stat-based game, not a skill-based one. The whole point is to build ever more effective loadouts. It's what you're supposed to do. And if a game that's played correctly becomes less fun as a result, well, that would indicate some serious problems with its design IMO. Saying DE has developed a perfect game would be naïve and incorrect. Anyone can see there are certain flaws in design (in my opinion it is that we have TOO MUCH freedom) but your logic seems flawed to me. Almost every game is "stats based" because that is generally the easiest form of progression but saying it's not "skilled based" is wildly incorrect. I already said it isn't particularly a difficult game and it cant be because it is more a horizontal game (about equipment acquisition) over a vertical one (increasing your stats directly). The vertical aspect ends fairly quickly (telltale sign is that a MR4 can be competitive with a MR25+) just by having certain things. That means that differences between players has to do a lot with how they play with their tools. I have seen amazing Saryns and I have seen terrible Saryns. I have seen invincible Rhinos and floor huggers. I think you under state a certain amount of skill in how frames can perform and how people can use them. Probably partly because the meta styles become the default expectation. What DE does need to do is add more variety (and less straight forward) of game modes and enemy types/AIs for some curveballs... along with bringing the player down and equalizing the enemy scaling. But generally (though it is still my opinion) I find that all games become more boring/less fun if you play them correctly. I haven't met a game that doesn't especially if it is "stats-based". That is because stats are easy to circumvent, you either overwhelm them or you don't. You either play to the meta or you create your own fun... which is what I have said from the very beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EinheriarJudith Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 45 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said: What DE does need to do is add more variety (and less straight forward) of game modes and enemy types/AIs for some curveballs... along with bringing the player down and equalizing the enemy scaling. this right here would breath new life into the game but at this point i dont think they are willing to do the work it would take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)GearsMatrix301 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 Novas damage reduction is pretty meh tho. also if anything Nezhas just Nezha now. He’s got uniqueness now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
000l000 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 Il y a 9 heures, EinheriarJudith a dit : last i checked nezha is nezha and no one else. but that could just be me ~_^. It's not just you. Some people like to complain about everything, some like to play the game the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen_Echo Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 11 hours ago, D20 said: Nezha does not have the flexibility of wormhole and M-Prime. But at least he's not made in paper-mache like Nova is (thanks to Warding Halo). I think you're asking for too much. But Nova too has 90% damage reduction while null star is on, the only diference is the base stats namely 75 more health and 150 less shields and 110 more armor. On the overall nova is maybe made out of paper-mache but nezha is technically double layer cardboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felixsylvaris Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 More important: Is Nezha fun to play and party? Slippery as always, better energy sustain, extra utility for team with orbs. Reduction damage good for normal content, Weapon damage multiplier (this one is good). Especially that orbs + damage buff for all is solid. Overall great codepiece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SordidDreams Posted September 14, 2018 Author Share Posted September 14, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said: But "niche" is part of a meta equation... That is a contradiction in terms. 11 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said: But Nezha isn't Nova so why should he play as good or better than Nova. Sounds like you are trying to enforce a style on a tool that isn't meant to do that in that way. I explained that when I made this thread, namely that his kit is very similar to Nova's, just worse in most ways. 11 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said: I repeat Yes, but that doesn't make it any more true. 11 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said: Stat bloating isn't always fun (for players or the enemy for that matter). WTF should I care what is or isn't fun for the AI...? 11 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said: But you want a bit a flavor in your Spy missions? You could try a non-stealth frame for a more immediate change. My go-to pick for Spy lately has been Excalibur Umbra because of his oxymoronic approach to stealth that involves shouting at enemies to make them unable to detect him. I find that funny. That's exactly the kind of weird off-meta use that Nezha lacks as far as I can tell. His frisbee teleport could potentially be great for such shenanigans, for instance if you could bounce it off a wall and around a corner to teleport to a place that's out of your line of sight, however that's not how the ability works and there are no areas in the game set up for that. 11 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said: Almost every game is "stats based" because that is generally the easiest form of progression Almost every game is stat-based because game devs are shoehorning RPG elements and unlockable upgrades into almost everything these days in lieu of designing a good game. And it's the only way of progression (as distinct from progress). However, there are degrees to that. Dark Souls, for instance, is an RPG with a ton of stats, yet it's actually mostly skill-based. That's because it's possible to beat the game even with rubbish stats, any and all damage in it is avoidable through skill, and if you suck, good stats won't help you. Stats in DS are just a crutch, not necessary and not enough by themselves. WF is not like that. It has fewer stats than DS, so it may seem like they'd be less important, but they actually play a much greater role in how well you can do in combat. You can literally make yourself immortal in WF, in more ways than one, at which point skill ceases to matter entirely. And because of things like unavoidable damage, if you don't have the stats for an encounter, no amount of skill will get you through it. 11 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said: What DE does need to do is add more variety (and less straight forward) of game modes and enemy types/AIs for some curveballs... along with bringing the player down and equalizing the enemy scaling. I couldn't agree more, however I can't see that ever happening, especially that second part. That would be a far too radical change of direction for the game, too risky. Edited September 14, 2018 by SordidDreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nacond Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 vor 15 Stunden schrieb Trowicia: >still calling Nezha a "she" when his deluxe skin assets prove otherwise Read it twice, didn't find one time where nezha is called female. "she" refers to nova... Back to the topic: You can can compare nearly every frames to another frame... I would like to see a frame that is able to copy abilities from other frames to build one with my favorite skills. And although I dislike some changes of Nezha I still enjoy him while I don't like Nova. So I think they are different in many ways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramflare Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 Even if OP were correct it wouldn't matter because that's the whole point of having 30+ frames, you pick the one that you enjoy playing the most, comparing them is mostly pointless, as long as it can get me through a sortie I don't care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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