Nezha is no longer a worse Rhino

[Zennim]

americans are too competitive to play MMOs

 

there is no need for a meta, there is no need to be better than everyone else, frames occupy their own niche, some better than others, but in different ways

nezha isn't a worst nova, he is a different valkyr/wukong, another one to the hall of virtually indestructible frames

nezha can teleport, use a big aoe CC, can soak a lot of damage, enough to never die, now dropping extra energy orbs for everyone, so he will never run out of energy, specially if uses rage/hunter adrenaline, that 10%damage window helps even more to replenish energy 

valkyr is completely indestructible, but need to rely on armor and speed to not die while gathering energy, in compensation valkyr has a attack speed boost and a very high melee damage capable to shred everything in the game 

these are two different frames with two different playstyles, i liked nezha very much, he is very fun, but valkyr is still my spirit animal that i will use in every survival and most boss battles

find the place to fit warframe, stop trying to fit a frame where it doesn't belong, and have fun, stop trying to compete in everything, this game is CO-OP focused, not PVP focused 

[SordidDreams]

2 hours ago, Zennim said:

americans are too competitive to play MMOs

Interesting point, except I'm not American, and Warframe is not an MMO, so I'm not sure how it relates to the topic of discussion.

[Battle_Mage]

I don't play Nezha all that much cuz he's...I dunno...lame? So, with the rework I yanked him out of cold storage and tooled around with him.

I gotta say that changing an existing power to something that just drops healing orbs seems lazy af to me. Remove a whole mechanic and slap in an everyday, boring one is pretty lackluster. #Fail.

Nezha -- back in the fridge with you!

[ZodiacShinryu]

18 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

That is a contradiction in terms.

How exactly? META means "Most Effective Tactics Available". Niche means a group/trait that excels in certain conditions/situations that provide it distinct advantages. The usefulness of what one considers meta is based on how broad you make it, in a sense there are multiple metas depending on what you do. There is a general meta, a stealth meta, a top damage meta, tank meta, so on and so forth. Which is used depends on the situation you apply it to. From there if a niche concept/function of a frame pushes it to be most effective for the situation, it becomes the meta for those situations. That is how it goes.

18 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I explained that when I made this thread, namely that his kit is very similar to Nova's, just worse in most ways.

There are all kinds of kits with similar functionality, this isn't new. This particular example is subjective based on how you wish to play where nova has easier options to damage while nezha is easier to support and mitigate. That is the whole point of fitting a frame to your playstyle.

18 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes, but that doesn't make it any more true.

Not more true about what? We were talking about efficiency and fun. Fun was always going to be subjective but the offset is that every frame is capable of completing anything you want in a reasonable amount of time if you know what you're doing. If you want pure efficiency and its fun for you? Cool. If you don't care about the meta you can use the frame you like the most and still complete the mission in a reasonable time (for a lot of cases were talking just a couple minutes difference at most). You make the choice to balance your own time and your enjoyment, that is the point.

18 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

WTF should I care what is or isn't fun for the AI...?

I wasn't speaking "fun" from an AI perspective. I was saying having an enemy with infinitely increasing stats doesn't particularly make for any more fun of an engagement. But most concerns of people then place performance on a set of stats far from the expected ranges of the game to bolster their argument of frame weaknesses. The point is stat bloating doesn't particularly fix anything anywhere which is all that endless is. If you want to then change your 'difficulty' within the expected design of encounters, you can always pick a frame that either suits the situation (more meta) or conflicts with it (less meta) to make it easier or harder respectively (along with any other mod and weapon loadout considerations; you can tailor everything yourself).

18 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

That's exactly the kind of weird off-meta use that Nezha lacks as far as I can tell. His frisbee teleport could potentially be great for such shenanigans, for instance if you could bounce it off a wall and around a corner to teleport to a place that's out of your line of sight, however that's not how the ability works and there are no areas in the game set up for that.

I mean you are not wrong but that isn't frame design problem, that is map design. And, again, there are powers all over the place that are not utilized to the best because of situations outside frame control. It happens... a lot. Particularly an example, Switch Teleport and range limitations on power usage. Decoy can only be cast like 55-60m from Loki (most targeted abilities are limited in that way). Even with a range build, its extremely difficult to switch teleport chain a decoy as a form of travel, like say the plains.

18 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Dark Souls, for instance, is an RPG with a ton of stats, yet it's actually mostly skill-based. That's because it's possible to beat the game even with rubbish stats, any and all damage in it is avoidable through skill, and if you suck, good stats won't help you. Stats in DS are just a crutch, not necessary and not enough by themselves. WF is not like that. It has fewer stats than DS, so it may seem like they'd be less important, but they actually play a much greater role in how well you can do in combat.

Depends on how you look at it. You can complete Sorties with trash weapons with enough effort and patience in the same way you can in DS. Its a challenge I know people have done. It is part of your choice of how you wish to experience the game. The differences in a game like DS is pacing and encounter scale. Yes everything is avoidable but everything is like 10x slower and generally warframe has more going on all around. Outside hitscan weapons (mostly Grineer) you can avoid a lot of things in Warframe. There are certain attacks that should be looked at (aka homing missiles that almost literally turn on a dime and follow you pretty much indefinitely) but there are a lot of things that have been toned down a bit (like napalm aoe range) that have been more manageable. Certain Eximus invisible aura needs to be changed as well. But yes, Warframe has a lot of options to remove a lot of the more skillful aspects (generally high on the meta lists).

[SordidDreams]

6 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

META means "Most Effective Tactics Available".

No it doesn't. That's a backronym that someone made up probably like yesterday and nobody in the world uses. I've been gaming for thirty years and this is the first time I've ever heard of it.

Meta actually refers to a set of weapons, abilities, and strategies regarded by the player base as the most effective, regardless of whether they actually are so or not. I recall at least one instance where Path of Exile applied nerfs to things that were regarded as useless, to which the community reacted with a collective "WTF mate", and the devs' response was basically "yeah, no, that stuff was OP as hell, you just never figured out how to use it". It was among the most effective but it wasn't being utilized, hence it wasn't meta.

And because people in general tend to not want to think for themselves, meta strategies tend to get applied to rare situations where off-meta choices perform better. Hence why a niche use is contrary to meta.

6 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

There are all kinds of kits with similar functionality, this isn't new. This particular example is subjective based on how you wish to play where nova has easier options to damage while nezha is easier to support and mitigate. That is the whole point of fitting a frame to your playstyle.

I get that, my point is that Nezha's benefits don't outweigh his drawbacks, in large part because the game is very easy, as you pointed out, which means it puts much more emphasis on killing quickly than on protecting yourself.

I also think Nova is at least just as good at mitigation and support as Nezha because of how ludicrously effective her CC is. She basically has two layers of damage mitigation, direct damage reduction via Null Star and also a reduction to enemy DPS due to slowing down their rate of fire by 75%. Not to mention that if you keep moving, enemies turn so slowly they don't even manage to bring their guns to bear in the first place a lot of the time. Yeah, if you want to stand still and let enemies shoot you, Nezha is better. In practical gameplay I'd say Nova easily outperforms him in both offense and defense.

6 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

Not more true about what? We were talking about efficiency and fun. Fun was always going to be subjective but the offset is that every frame is capable of completing anything you want in a reasonable amount of time if you know what you're doing. If you want pure efficiency and its fun for you? Cool. If you don't care about the meta you can use the frame you like the most and still complete the mission in a reasonable time (for a lot of cases were talking just a couple minutes difference at most). You make the choice to balance your own time and your enjoyment, that is the point.

I already addressed that: If you deliberately gimp yourself, you'll be left in the dust by your teammates, making the game unfun. If you play without teammates, the game is also much less fun.

6 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

I mean you are not wrong but that isn't frame design problem, that is map design.

You're not wrong, however I never said it was a frame design problem. In fact, in my very second comment I said that it's okay for a frame to be a worse version of another if the game gives them a niche use where they really shine. DE did that for Harrow, for instance, who was regarded on release as a worse Trinity. Then PoE came out, and lo and behold, Harrow became a meta pick for Eidolon hunting because of his ability to grant brief invincibility and status immunity, which was not really all that useful anywhere until then.

6 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

Depends on how you look at it. You can complete Sorties with trash weapons with enough effort and patience in the same way you can in DS.

Yeah, but you have to compensate for that by using a defensive frame, because the longer you take to kill enemies, the more time they have to chip away at you with unavoidable damage. You can't have both a weak weapon and a weak frame. Of course you can complete all the game content with nothing but an unmodded dagger if you're a very patient Rhino. Putting an invincibility button into the player's arsenal doesn't make the game more skillful, though, it makes it less so. You're not compensating for the lack of stats on your gun with skill, you're compensating for it with other stats on other equipment.

6 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

The differences in a game like DS is pacing and encounter scale. Yes everything is avoidable but everything is like 10x slower and generally warframe has more going on all around. Outside hitscan weapons (mostly Grineer) you can avoid a lot of things in Warframe. There are certain attacks that should be looked at (aka homing missiles that almost literally turn on a dime and follow you pretty much indefinitely) but there are a lot of things that have been toned down a bit (like napalm aoe range) that have been more manageable. Certain Eximus invisible aura needs to be changed as well. But yes, Warframe has a lot of options to remove a lot of the more skillful aspects (generally high on the meta lists).

Again you're right, but I think there's more to it than that. Even non-hitscan weapons are impossible to avoid reliably in WF due to how quickly the projectiles travel. Look at how ludicrously slowly enemy arrows fly in DS, that's specifically so you can avoid them. This is compounded by the fact that WF levels are randomly generated and the game keeps spawning new enemies around you, so you never know where damage is coming from. DS has static levels and static enemy placement, which makes it much more predictable and learnable. DS generally gives you time to survey your surroundings before you engage enemies, whereas in WF enemies tend to get alerted much easier and start moving around, again making them much less predictable. Enemy attacks in DS have long wind-ups so you can see them coming, in WF even a lot of the melee enemies attack almost instantly. And so on and so forth.

That's not to say I want WF to become DS. If I wanted to play DS, I'd play DS. I just brought up DS as an example to illustrate the difference between a skill-based game and a stat-based one. I'm okay with WF being a stat-based game. But that means the frames need to be roughly on par with each other in how they perform, because in a stat-based game you can only compensate for weak gear with player skill up to a point.

Edited September 15, 2018 by SordidDreams

[Fallen_Echo]

13 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

No it doesn't. 

It does. The word metagaming originates from the military first appeared in public usage around 1995.

Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. 

Nowadays it means most efficient tactics avaible in gaming. This term born to describe when someone has all access to every information avaible and uses it to generate the maximum possible outcome.

[SordidDreams]

Yes, thank you, Captain Wikipedia. Except for the fact that that article is full of unverified made-up BS and clearly marked as such at the top of the page, but don't let that deter you.

Edited September 15, 2018 by SordidDreams

[schilds]

The prefix "meta" has been around for ages (ancient Greece, I think). 1995? Seriously?

[felixsylvaris]

Term Meta is more useful when refering what are the most popular strategies to win the content. It is only part which is well know, so does not include all possible strategie, or even do not have to be the best.

The funny thing is that new Nezha could be often better or more useful than Rhino some other frames, but ppl will still use Rhino by habbit.

[(PSN)purpleskullgamin]

Nezha never was a worse Rhino, he was the love child of Rhino, Volt and Excalibur. 

And he's gotten to the point he outdoes them all.

[ZodiacShinryu]

16 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

No it doesn't. That's a backronym that someone made up probably like yesterday and nobody in the world uses. I've been gaming for thirty years and this is the first time I've ever heard of it.

Meta actually refers to a set of weapons, abilities, and strategies regarded by the player base as the most effective, regardless of whether they actually are so or not. I recall at least one instance where Path of Exile applied nerfs to things that were regarded as useless, to which the community reacted with a collective "WTF mate", and the devs' response was basically "yeah, no, that stuff was OP as hell, you just never figured out how to use it". It was among the most effective but it wasn't being utilized, hence it wasn't meta.

And because people in general tend to not want to think for themselves, meta strategies tend to get applied to rare situations where off-meta choices perform better. Hence why a niche use is contrary to meta.

Well you aren't actually disagreeing with the definition as much as you redirect it. Also I have heard "meta" all the way back when I started playing FFXI way back in like 2004-06, its definitely not a new term even relatively speaking whether or not you've actually encountered it or not. Now what you bring up is that there is a certain lag time and personal responsibility of the community for figuring out the meta for any given situation. I can understand that most people are going to cling to a popular method even if there is technically something better. Generally speaking that method persists because of exposure even as a meta may evolve beyond it but that just means its technically outdated and it works for what it needs. Having an expectation that people always know or look up the best strategy at any given moment is a little unreasonable especially if its unneeded (which is part of my overall point) and they actually aren't completely knowledgeable of all the options or mechanics.

Your example is much like Saryn 2.0 vs Saryn 3.0. People said Saryn 2.0 was weak and fell off too early and now Saryn 3.0 was overbuffed and takes all the fun away. While I can certainly say Saryn 3.0 is simple and effective in certain situations, Saryn 2.0 was technically stronger/more effective all around. Saryn 2.0 was under-appreciated that had higher burst and a higher potential damage threshold by leagues over a max capped Spore even if you played her just right. What I saw was a Spore nerf while much of the community sees a buff. With that said I have seen Devs "nerf" what were thought as weak useless things by the community because they had "niche" aspects that are beyond the intent, much like Saryn 2.0. But there are a lot of reasons it might not have made it into a mainstream meta, mostly because of the effort needed or reliably weren't favorable.

---

Otherwise everything else is just going to be opinions and semantics.

[XaoGarrent]

If anything he's now a weird sort of bridge between Inaros and Nova with the added ability of being able to buttslide at a million miles per hour. The theory behind his kit is sound, but it still has issues. Consistency is the number one problem, especially of his chakram, but also other abilities (his 4 shouldn't be cleansed by ancients, he has the only 4 crowd control ability I can think of where this is the case). With that said, I still feel he needs something more, though I'm really not sure what.

Edited September 16, 2018 by XaoGarrent

[PoisonHD]

On 2018-09-14 at 11:59 PM, Battle_Mage said:

I don't play Nezha all that much cuz he's...I dunno...lame? So, with the rework I yanked him out of cold storage and tooled around with him.

I gotta say that changing an existing power to something that just drops healing orbs seems lazy af to me. Remove a whole mechanic and slap in an everyday, boring one is pretty lackluster. #Fail.

Nezha -- back in the fridge with you!

It was more then just the healing orbs, all the changes made around them made a multitude of builds possible, making him an incredible tank frame, and much more then that. Health orbs are overall more effective then his healing pulse, since they stick around for longer and have an effect on arcanes and mods.

 

You really should try to play him for longer, haha

[XaoGarrent]

20 minutes ago, PoisonHD said:

It was more then just the healing orbs, all the changes made around them made a multitude of builds possible, making him an incredible tank frame, and much more then that. Health orbs are overall more effective then his healing pulse, since they stick around for longer and have an effect on arcanes and mods.

Past the arcanes and mods, I'm actually not sure this is true for one simple reason: The changes to Nezha just make the need for true universal vacuum even more apparent. I've had teammates run through a vast sea of health orbs and proceed to faceplant two seconds later because they either were using a kubrow/kavat or their drone had died. The latter of which is a very common situation in Mot/Mithra or ESO.

Atlas has the same issue, though only in regards to himself. It's becoming a bit of a pattern.

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2018-09-15 at 1:32 PM, SordidDreams said:

Yes, thank you, Captain Wikipedia. Except for the fact that that article is full of unverified made-up BS and clearly marked as such at the top of the page, but don't let that deter you.

Well if you have a counter-argument with proofs feel free to post it because without that you are just bullting here.

[DroopingPuppy]

There are not much squish frames worse than Nova, actually. Although she has a defensive tech, but it is too unreliable and needs much care to actually run.

[PoisonHD]

8 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

Past the arcanes and mods, I'm actually not sure this is true for one simple reason: The changes to Nezha just make the need for true universal vacuum even more apparent. I've had teammates run through a vast sea of health orbs and proceed to faceplant two seconds later because they either were using a kubrow/kavat or their drone had died. The latter of which is a very common situation in Mot/Mithra or ESO.

Atlas has the same issue, though only in regards to himself. It's becoming a bit of a pattern.

The keeping the healing pulse is a much heavier tradeoff then what we got now. He'd be a lot less tanky then he is now because of health conversion, and wouldn't be able to utilize Arcane pulse, or Energize. Also, coming from someone who never uses companions/sentinels, I've never really had that problem while playing him, or when someone else is 

 

[Fallen_Echo]

Just a quick headsup but as soon as the halo cant absorb an attack fully the effect breaks and you take full damage. I confirmed this in the simularcum.

[XaoGarrent]

4 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

The keeping the healing pulse is a much heavier tradeoff then what we got now. He'd be a lot less tanky then he is now because of health conversion, and wouldn't be able to utilize Arcane pulse, or Energize. Also, coming from someone who never uses companions/sentinels, I've never really had that problem while playing him, or when someone else is 

 

He doesn't even remotely need health conversion (seriously, it's completely overkill, it's a waste of a slot, as is equilibrium), and he could have still had energy orb drops even with a healing pulse. I frankly don't understand why he went in this direction because they could have easily just given the healing pulse more range. Nobody is complaining about Harrow's healing and it's really not much more than a better version of Nezha's old functionality.

Also, as someone who uses both companions and sentinels, I have this problem all the time. I've taken to using nothing but Djinn if I plan to do more than a rotation because at least with Djinn I'll have vacuum *some* of the time. It really just sounds like you play extremely sub optimally anyway and so none of this even matters to you. I mean, if you want to spend a quarter of your time playing 52 pickup, that's fine, but for the rest of us that don't this is a major drawback and it pushes Kubrows and Kavats even further down the list.

[SordidDreams]

6 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Just a quick headsup but as soon as the halo cant absorb an attack fully the effect breaks and you take full damage. I confirmed this in the simularcum.

🤦‍♂️Well that's just great.

Anyway, on an unrelated note, after playing Nezha some more I think I've narrowed down the specific reasons why he feels so underwhelming to play:

Firstly, CC is arbitrarily ineffective against certain enemies. Bosses, kuva guardians, bursas, and probably others I haven't fought yet (juggernauts, I would assume); generally exactly the enemies that you want to CC the most. Also, the CC is a toggle, which is also bad. You CC a group, more enemies come in, so you press the CC button again, but instead of CC-ing the new enemies, it removes the existing CC from the old group. It does the opposite of what you want half of the time. And no, the slam does not deal damage. It deals much less than a single bullet from my grakata, and that goes BRRRRRRRT. The damage is a fake stat that only exists in order to confuse new players about the purpose of the ability. The real purpose of the slam is to make the CC less useful, which is bad because it's already a lot less useful than a lot of other CC in the game (such as, oh I don't know, Nova's).

Secondly, the frisbee has a mind of its own and goes wherever the hell it wants. I mean, look at this! It's hopeless! Nezha's actually able to deal tremendous damage if the conditions are just right due to Reaping Chakram, which doubles the frisbee's damage for each enemy hit. So if I spear 8 level 155 corrupted bombards close together and chuck a frisbee in there, six of them die almost instantly, but then the other two take forever because there are no more enemies to multiply the damage off of. Such inconsistency and seemingly random damage spikes are bad by themselves, and of course outside the simulacrum getting a group together in such a way as to be able to pull this off is rare. Usually the frisbee hits one or two enemies, doing negligible damage, and that's it. This also makes its damage-doubling debuff really annoying and fiddly to apply (in contrast to, again, Nova's).

Thirdly, having a dual-purpose damage/teleport button is really annoying. I couldn't count the number of times I accidentally teleported when I meant to chuck a new frisbee, because the old one flew off god knows where and I thought it'd disappeared already.

And finally, having to constantly renew the fire trail is annoying. It's an ability that you want on all the time, mostly for the looks since its damage is also a fake stat and its CC is worthless as it applies to enemies that you're already running away from, so there's no good reason to periodically make the player press the button.

So, my solution:

Make CC apply a slow if the enemy can't be hard-CCed. Remove the slam, pressing the button again spears new enemies.

Improve frisbee targeting, both in going where the player is pointing and also seeking enemies on its own after bouncing. Change the damage boost for hitting multiple enemies from exponential growth to diminishing returns while massively buffing base damage to reduce damage inconsistency. Make the boost linger for a while after the frisbee ends so that it's applied to the next one. Allow throwing new frisbees even if previous ones are still going.

Move the fire trail to the frame's passive, put teleport on its button instead (and probably swap frisbee and teleport, because it makes no sense to unlock teleport and have nothing to teleport to). When teleporting with multiple frisbees present, choose one closest to where the player is aiming.

There, done. You're welcome, DE.

Edited September 16, 2018 by SordidDreams

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

-Snip-

I thought about the same too, that the purpose of the spears seems to be faulty.

I thought about what if we keep slam, but instead of making it deal damage each enemy slammed creates a 2 meter wide hard knockdown area for 3 seconds?

Like when you create vacuum by burning all air, the spears could create small areas where the enemies just get stuck on the ground for just enough time to get impaled again.

 

For the chakram i agree its aim is terrible, like i could probably aim better with any glavies with my monitor turned off.

For the teleport how about it consumes one flying chakram but teleports you to where you currently aim? That would make sense and create a controlable escape route.

 

[SordidDreams]

3 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

For the teleport how about it consumes one flying chakram but teleports you to where you currently aim? That would make sense and create a controlable escape route.

I thought about that, but the thing I like about the frisbee teleport is that it lets you control how far away you teleport by timing it as the frisbee travels. I think that's a neat system, one of the things I dislike about Nova is that her teleport is always smacking me into walls. On the other hand, the frisbee travels so slowly that waiting for it to reach its maximum range is annoying, yet it's also fast enough that actually timing the teleport just right to hit a small platform somewhere halfway along its route is way too hard. Not to mention that there aren't actually even very many situations where you need to do that, and even those are easier solved by just jumping.

So yeah, I agree. Ditching the gimmicky frisbee synergy and just teleporting to where the player is aiming is probably a better idea, even though that loses some of the unique flavor of the frame.

[PoisonHD]

5 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

He doesn't even remotely need health conversion (seriously, it's completely overkill, it's a waste of a slot, as is equilibrium), and he could have still had energy orb drops even with a healing pulse. I frankly don't understand why he went in this direction because they could have easily just given the healing pulse more range. Nobody is complaining about Harrow's healing and it's really not much more than a better version of Nezha's old functionality.

Also, as someone who uses both companions and sentinels, I have this problem all the time. I've taken to using nothing but Djinn if I plan to do more than a rotation because at least with Djinn I'll have vacuum *some* of the time. It really just sounds like you play extremely sub optimally anyway and so none of this even matters to you. I mean, if you want to spend a quarter of your time playing 52 pickup, that's fine, but for the rest of us that don't this is a major drawback and it pushes Kubrows and Kavats even further down the list.

The way I play is a non-issue, I play "efficiently" but I just hate the way sentinels look, and get in the way on screen. I consistently have even pick ups with everyone else using their sentinels without even paying attention.

Also, if you think health conversion is worthless, you're really building a tanky Nezha wrong. It gives an additional 8% damage reduction from his base armor, and it combined, increasing your total to 98% damage reduction with your halo up. Since Chakram produces health orbs, you can have it up 100% of the time with no issues, so you consistently are well over 1000 armor. Also, if you're having problems while using sentinels, while I, someone who uses none and does long Mot runs constantly have none, I'd say it's a problem with your playstyle, not mine.

 

Also @SordidDreams in that clip with Chakram, you're hitting the wall, Chakram has a wide hotbox, and having a passive firewalker would be cool, but also annoying to constantly have on, in addition to making Pyroclastic Flow basically useless.

Edited September 17, 2018 by PoisonHD

[SordidDreams]

5 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

Also @SordidDreams in that clip with Chakram, you're hitting the wall, Chakram has a wide hotbox

Yes, I know. That's the point. That's why I showed the Lenz shots as well to demonstrate that yes, I do in fact have a clear line of sight to my point of aim. To be fair, Nova's 2 has a similar issue where standing too close to a wall will make it go in a random direction. It's been that way for as long as I can remember, so it's not like this kind of problem is new. Which of course makes it all the more unbelievable that it's not fixed yet and that instead of making basic gameplay mechanics function correctly, DE is working on implementing animal poop, because priorities.

I also had another issue earlier where I was throwing it at a speared enemy, and even though my crosshair was on the enemy, the frisbee kept veering up and missing, but I was unable to replicate that for recording. So that's a bug that needs hunting down as well.

5 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

having a passive firewalker would be cool, but also annoying to constantly have on

I suppose it could be, but it's a choice between having it constantly on being an annoyance to people who don't want it, or having to turn it on being an annoyance to people who do want it. I suppose a compromise solution would be to just buff its duration by an order of magnitude or so. I mean, when the dev workshop post mentioned it would be a long-lasting ability, I didn't imagine their idea of that would be 30 seconds. That's pathetic. I mean, even in Diablo 3, a game that is very fond of committing the cardinal sin of game design of making you press buttons for no good reason, self-buffs last ten minutes.

5 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

making Pyroclastic Flow basically useless

As opposed to now?

Edited September 17, 2018 by SordidDreams

[PoisonHD]

30 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

As opposed to now?

Doing hundreds of thousands a tick isn't exactly useless.

I'm also going to say, it's a terrible comparison to try to show line of sight. You're using a weapon, firing an arrow with a tiny hitbox that has no chance of hitting the corner, to a ring with a hitbox as wide as the Warframe, that throws from centered around his stomach. Of course it's gonna hit the wall if you're close. Every time you threw it didn't go in a "random direction" it bounced off of it in the same direction from basically the same spot...

Edited September 17, 2018 by PoisonHD