Nezha is no longer a worse Rhino

[SordidDreams]

Just now, PoisonHD said:

I'm also going to say, it's a terrible comparison to try to show line of sight. You're using a weapon, firing an arrow with a tiny hitbox that has no chance of hitting the corner, to a ring with a hitbox almost as wide as the Warframe, that throws from a lower height.

Yes, again, that oversized hitbox and wonky projectile origin is exactly the problem I'm highlighting.

4 minutes ago, PoisonHD said:

Doing hundreds of thousands a tick isn't exactly useless.

I suppose not, the problem with it is the same as with most augments, namely that it should just be the way the ability works by default but is not quite worth a mod slot. Without it the fire trail is really not worth being anything more than a passive.

[PoisonHD]

Just now, SordidDreams said:

Yes, again, that oversized hitbox and wonky projectile origin is exactly the problem I'm highlighting.

I suppose not, the problem with it is the same as with most augments, namely that it should just be the way the ability works by default but is not quite worth a mod slot. Without it the fire trail is really not worth being anything more than a passive.

The fire trail clears status effect, and provides excellent CC while your running around in survival and defenses, and gives a movement boost that works well with his current passive. 

Also, Chakram isn't really oversized, it's the size of the projectile thrown, which is how it should be. I'm just wondering where exactly you want it to originate from? If you want it from his hand, then it's still at the same level as where he throws it now, just forward a little, or at eye level and have it make no sense?

[SordidDreams]

8 minutes ago, PoisonHD said:

The fire trail clears status effect, and provides excellent CC while your running around in survival and defenses, and gives a movement boost that works well with his current passive. 

Yes? And?

8 minutes ago, PoisonHD said:

Chakram isn't really oversized, it's the size of the projectile thrown, which is how it should be.

For hitting enemies, yes. The terrain collision hitbox should be way smaller to avoid the issue shown.

8 minutes ago, PoisonHD said:

I'm just wondering where exactly you want it to originate from?

I don't really care. I mean, the simple way to fix it would be to make it originate from the camera rather than the character. A lot of games do that, at lest with the actual hitbox, even if the visible projectile comes out of the character. Other games go more elaborate with it. Whatever works. Point is, this does not.

Oh, and I also just found a wonderful bug in the simulacrum where my own frisbees coming back from hitting enemies kill me. Delightful.

Edited September 17, 2018 by SordidDreams

[XaoGarrent]

EDIT: Y'know what, screw it, this really just isn't worth my time or effort.

Edited September 17, 2018 by XaoGarrent

[PoisonHD]

11 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes? And?

For hitting enemies, yes. The terrain collision hitbox should be way smaller to avoid the issue shown.

I don't really care. I mean, the simple way to fix it would be to make it originate from the camera rather than the character. A lot of games do that, at lest with the actual hitbox, even if the visible projectile comes out of the character. Other games go more elaborate with it. Whatever works. Point is, this does not..

It's not a problem of Chakram then, when Chakram collides with a wall, it doesn't bounce away until it actually touches it (Based on looking in multiple tiles in captura). In some places, like say corners that even Warframes get caught on, it'll bounce off before, but that's an issue with the collision of the wall, not Chakram itself. It works very well, and personally I haven't had issues with it. Does it's pathing need to be improved? Yes. Does it's collision, no, because it makes sense where he's throwing it from. If the hitbox traveled from the camera, and he threw it forward from stomach/chest area, it would clip terribly, and all immersion with it would be broken.

I'm also just wondering how you think that cheap, hard CC, with a guaranteed elemental proc is useless enough to be a passive. The status effect cleansing isn't all that useful for Nezha himself, since Halo provides that, but for your teammates it's some help. 

[Rhundis]

On 2018-09-13 at 3:34 PM, SordidDreams said:

That's my point, though. Yeah he's durable, but if you want durability, there are better frames for that. And he doesn't have much to offer beyond that, even with the rework.

Way I see it, there are two types of frames in WF. Generalists and specialists. Generalists are good in a wide variety of situations and mission types but don't really shine anywhere, while specialists are typically regarded as useless, but they do have a very specific niche where they are the best pick. Nyx, for instance, is great in the Razoback fight due to being able to Mind Control the bursas instead of having to kill and hack them. She's also great for the "complete a survival without killing an enemy" riven challenge, since enemies under the effect of Chaos don't count as allies, so them killing each other doesn't fail the challenge. If you want a Prodman poster, you go Ash with Fatal Teleport and Covert Lethality. Nekros is a resource farmer. Zephyr is fantastic for moving around the Plains quickly, such as when looking for wisps. And so on.

Now I do think this is good game design. There are only a handful of gameplay roles, you have your DPS, tank, healer, buffer, CC, stealth, and that's about it, and there are only so many hybrids you can make before you run out of ideas and start repeating yourself. With 36 warframes and counting, repetition is inevitable. And it's okay to have a frame that's a worse version of another if they have a situation where they shine, a reason to pick them at least once in a while.

Nezha's issue is that he doesn't have that. Being a worse Nova would be fine if he was a specialist useful in a specific situation. But he isn't, and that's just too bad, because the skin is oh so pretty, and I'd love to have a reason to use it more.

So the ability to spawn a myriad of health / energy orbs, add a x2 or x3 damage multiplier to marked enemies for "the whole team", and a trail of fire that removes all proc'd effects from allies isn't useful? (Not to mention Safeguard to protect allies from further Proc's and gain some damage absorption in the process.)

Nezha is not a frame meant to shine on his own. He is, from my own personal perspective, a SUPPORT frame. He's not meant to be able to do all the major things other frames do, nor does he need something to make him stand out anymore than he already does. He's meant to support other warframes and their abilities seeing as most if not all of his work in conjunction to everyone else's. 

I will gladly accept a Nezha in the squad to help out not only myself, but other frames as i can never say no to a good friendly buff.

Also, i guarantee someone out there will go, "but there are other support frames that do the job better." and i agree with you, to an extent. Some frames do support well in a particular regard. But in the case of Nezha he does multiple rolls well and doesn't really do anything badly. He's just good and that's probably all he'll ever be.

[SordidDreams]

On 2018-09-17 at 7:30 PM, PoisonHD said:

If the hitbox traveled from the camera, and he threw it forward from stomach/chest area, it would clip terribly, and all immersion with it would be broken.

That's only one of a number of possible solutions, and it doesn't break immersion in any of the other games it's implemented in (which is the majority of 3rd-person games). Usually nobody even notices. About the only game where I can recall people noticing and complaining was Planetside 2, which has tanks and gun emplacements with barrels that are several meters long and often offset from the camera also by a few meters. So yeah, if it's offset by that much, it's a noticeable problem. Ironically the projectiles used to originate from the barrels and for some unfathomable reason the devs changed it so now they originate from the camera, creating the problem rather than fixing it, but hey, that's Planetside for you.

On 2018-09-17 at 7:30 PM, PoisonHD said:

I'm also just wondering how you think that cheap, hard CC, with a guaranteed elemental proc is useless enough to be a passive.

I did say four days ago...

On 2018-09-13 at 8:54 PM, SordidDreams said:

its CC is worthless as it applies to enemies that you're already running away from

I also find it a bit redundant to have two hard CC abilities on one frame, especially when neither of them affects the enemies you really want to CC (bosses, kuva guardians, bursas, and probably others).

On 2018-09-17 at 11:37 PM, Rhundis said:

So the ability to spawn a myriad of health / energy orbs, add a x2 or x3 damage multiplier to marked enemies for "the whole team", and a trail of fire that removes all proc'd effects from allies isn't useful? (Not to mention Safeguard to protect allies from further Proc's and gain some damage absorption in the process.)

Health orbs are indeed almost worthless, energy orbs are nice but to really get a "myriad" of them you'd have to consistently kill things with the frisbee, which is nearly impossible at any kind of high-ish level, procs on frames aren't really a big deal worth worrying about, and marking enemies would be great if you could do it en masse (like, y'know, Nova), however since the frisbee only hits a couple of guys, its utility is situational at best. Safeguard is a waste of time, if you want to give allies damage reduction, bring Trinity. Also bring her if you want to give them health and energy, for that matter. The only thing she's missing from Nezha's kit is the CC, which isn't all that good anyway.

On 2018-09-17 at 11:37 PM, Rhundis said:

Nezha is not a frame meant to shine on his own. He is, from my own personal perspective, a SUPPORT frame. He's not meant to be able to do all the major things other frames do, nor does he need something to make him stand out anymore than he already does. He's meant to support other warframes and their abilities seeing as most if not all of his work in conjunction to everyone else's. 

Well yes, he is a support frame. That's obvious from the fact that he doesn't have any abilities that deal damage (despite most of them pretending to). The problem I have with him is that he doesn't really do the support job very well, there are better CC/debuffers and there are better healers/buffers. The bit about bringing a Trinity instead that I wrote above? It made me realize Nezha's not simply a worse Nova, he's Nova/Trinity hybrid. The problem is that doing half the job of both is not as good as doing one of those jobs fully. That seems to be the curse of hybrid characters in a lot of games, they're not as useful as the specialists.

On 2018-09-17 at 11:37 PM, Rhundis said:

i guarantee someone out there will go, "but there are other support frames that do the job better." and i agree with you, to an extent. Some frames do support well in a particular regard. But in the case of Nezha he does multiple rolls well and doesn't really do anything badly. He's just good and that's probably all he'll ever be.

See? You saw it coming, and with good reason. That's exactly the response to what you said. There are indeed better supports. Needless to say I disagree that Nezha does all his roles well. He does them adequately, but why settle for that?

Edited September 19, 2018 by SordidDreams

[Rhundis]

12 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

That's only one of a number of possible solutions, and it doesn't break immersion in any of the other games it's implemented in (which is the majority of 3rd-person games). Usually nobody even notices. About the only game where I can recall people noticing and complaining was Planetside 2, which has tanks and gun emplacements with barrels that are several meters long and often offset from the camera also by a few meters. So yeah, if it's offset by that much, it's a noticeable problem. Ironically the projectiles used to originate from the barrels and for some unfathomable reason the devs changed it so now they originate from the camera, creating the problem rather than fixing it, but hey, that's Planetside for you.

I did say four days ago...

I also find it a bit redundant to have two hard CC abilities on one frame, especially when neither of them affects the enemies you really want to CC (bosses, kuva guardians, bursas, and probably others).

Health orbs are indeed almost worthless, energy orbs are nice but to really get a "myriad" of them you'd have to consistently kill things with the frisbee, which is nearly impossible at any kind of high-ish level, procs on frames aren't really a big deal worth worrying about, and marking enemies would be great if you could do it en masse (like, y'know, Nova), however since the frisbee only hits a couple of guys, its utility is situational at best. Safeguard is a waste of time, if you want to give allies damage reduction, bring Trinity. Also bring her if you want to give them health and energy, for that matter. The only thing she's missing from Nezha's kit is the CC, which isn't all that good anyway.

Well yes, he is a support frame. That's obvious from the fact that he doesn't have any abilities that deal damage (despite most of them pretending to). The problem I have with him is that he doesn't really do the support job very well, there are better CC/debuffers and there are better healers/buffers. The bit about bringing a Trinity instead that I wrote above? It made me realize Nezha's not simply a worse Nova, he's Nova/Trinity hybrid. The problem is that doing half the job of both is not as good as doing one of those jobs fully. That seems to be the curse of hybrid characters in a lot of games, they're not as useful as the specialists.

See? You saw it coming, and with good reason. That's exactly the response to what you said. There are indeed better supports. Needless to say I disagree that Nezha does all his roles well. He does them adequately, but why settle for that?

Because you sir, just seem to want to view only the numbers rather than the playstyle.

[SordidDreams]

13 minutes ago, Rhundis said:

Because you sir, just seem to want to view only the numbers rather than the playstyle.

Yes, of course, which is why I spent so much time talking about problems such as projectiles not going where you're aiming, never really knowing whether pressing a button will shoot or teleport you, having to keep renewing an ability that there is no reason to not have on all the time, and his main CC ability doing the opposite of what you want it to half the time. Because all of these can be fixed by simply tweaking the stats.

Oh wait. 🙄

Edited September 19, 2018 by SordidDreams

[DeadlyCreation]

nezha is great as he is. tanks alot, debuffs enemies and can cc if needed. whats wrong with that? there is allways someone beter in certain parts but he is overall a really solid and fun frame. and tbh nova is a one trick pony. press 4 all day.. makes fun yeay...... (and yeah i think nova should get a rework)

[SordidDreams]

21 minutes ago, DeadlyCreation said:

whats wrong with that?

I spent several days and three pages answering that question. If you're seriously interested in the answer, all you need to do is read.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, DeadlyCreation said:

nezha is great as he is. tanks alot, debuffs enemies and can cc if needed. whats wrong with that? there is allways someone beter in certain parts but he is overall a really solid and fun frame. and tbh nova is a one trick pony. press 4 all day.. makes fun yeay...... (and yeah i think nova should get a rework)

We want warframes to be streamlined and optimized.

A frame what has problems with aiming his main skill (because honestly all synergy points to chakram), teleports you to random spots, fails to activate its targeting is nor streamlined not optimized.

Just because the Maus and the Ratte tanks were able to take some hits and could deal huge damage that doesnt make them reliable and good tanks.