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Warframe Needs an Endgame


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2 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Nice ad hominem there, except the discussion here is not whether DE's strategy is financially succesful or not (I have always admitted it is, they found their niche in the casual power fantasy and it's working great for them), but rather whether Warframe has or needs or can benefit from endgame or not. Ever since PoE they've been riding on hype, mostly hype coming from social media. This hype has been generated by people that play the game for some time, make a glowing review then either leave or keep playing til they get bored at the end of the rainbow. Their recent success is also greatly in part due to Destiny 2's utter failure and lack of decent competition in the genre. Destiny 2 is trying to come around with Forsaken (which has been really well received so far), and more competition is on the horizon with Anthem and Division 2. Whether those games will flop or not, we can't tell yet. But I'm just saying this endgame vacuum Warframe has still has the potential to become an issue in the future. Enough to make the game fail? Obviously not. But this huge wave of great success might not be eternal you know. 

 

Rich. You say Ad Hominem and then lay out a ton of opinion as 'fact'.

The whole point of the endeaver is for the game company to be successful, financially and reputationally.

They are succeeding,

You and others are running around trying to say "the sky might fall tommorrow if you don't add what we want" when the current available information all contridicts the probablity of that event occuring and then tell us we are the crazy ones, wearing rose colored glasses, etc.

Add to that the very real fact these types of 'sky is falling unless you do X' posts proliferate from day one on every single game forum and that leads to a lot of people not really interested in coddling such discussions.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)dDASTARDLY said:

I may be new, less than 100 hrs played, but wouldn't this be a perfect opportunity for the new war to clean the slate and offer a soft reboot? 

DE would be better equipped to manage progression and power creep that way, and satisfy everyone. 

I wouldn't be surprised that the power creep we see now is just something to keep the player base busy until that time. 

Something needs to happen.

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37 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

Something needs to happen.

Darling, Fashion Frame already happened. It’s endgame that’ll surely never end apart from the grinding, collecting and modding. 

What are updates if you break them down? New fashion or new mechanics that we cycle through. 

The thing about “end game” is that its name goes against a dynamic game like WF. DE has to be careful in using such phrases as it could also mean “game over” once a player feels he has finished this so called end game content.

Better call it extreme difficulty or very hard challenge mode as they say in other games to avoid confusion from the term end game. 

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Mr.Lube:

Educated pessimism.

Agreed.

Be it within a dedicated "hard mode" or the overall game: Fundamental changes would have to made, especially to the energy economy, which for me is the root of all cheese / "evil" really (perma health, perma damage reduction, perma own damage boosting, perma nuking, perma CCing, perma EVERYTHING).

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Hypernaut1:

The range of abilities and stats of Warframe are too great to balance any kinds of end game around.

You are right, i was just arguing design possiblities "ideally". But realistically i've come to the same conclusion as you and mr. lube. Which still doesn't mean there'd be no ways to "fix" the game, tho, if only with a seperate mode. But i also realize that this would basically mean designing and maintaining 2 games (as i wrote in that other "difficulty" thread). I'm not so delusional to believe there's much of a chance something like this will ever happen, but we can still state our opinions and hopes on these forums, for which they are made for... And who knows, maybe they'll at least think of a compromise solution eventually. Think of ESO's cooldowns, i felt that was a good start actually (Well, until Saryn came and started to obliterate the map mit her 1...).

Also ESO made me realize how much i miss raids as endgame :(.

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If de tried to give us endgame we would find a way to make it easier then complain we have no challenge 

the power we have against the power the enemies have is strange and confusing 

i mean look at ESO they probably wanted that to be a end game thing and it took us like what a week on how do that mission efficiently? 

all im saying is if it was given it would be rendered easier not due to feedback but player power we can  adapt to a new challenge rather quick

the enemies are fast > nova 

they hit like trucks > trinity 

they have a million armor > cpx4 or frame augs that let you shred armor Say banshee sonic boom with some power strength  

any situation they throw at us we have a response to lessen the impact or stop it completely 

Edited by seprent
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vor 12 Minuten schrieb seprent:

the enemies are fast > nova 

they hit like trucks > trinity 

they have a million armor > cpx4 or frame augs that let you shred armor Say banshee sonic boom with some power strength  

any situation they throw at us we have a response to lessen the impact or stop it completely

Which all is OK... if it's once in a while and not the whole mission from start to finish. Hence my energy rework plea.

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Here's a topic I bring up a lot and I feel like I'd be best to explain why warframe doesn't have an endgame. In a game that's only revolved around 1 thing gets boring, and that thing is killing. Instead of adding other aspects like car racing or aircraft flying or actual open world essentials, they heavily rely on killing everything. For an example, there's sanctuary onslaught, or POE where the "toughest" boss has to be killed to drop anything and it drops like 3 things. See, there's a saying that too much of anything can be bad and I think DE is catching on, since I heard they're adding racing to the skateboards in fortuna. Yes, there are a variety of missions. That doesn't mean it isn't the exact same thing but you're doing it in a slightly different way. Why is it that, instead of killing everything, we have something to do that interests a wider majority of players to where we could potentially bring in more players? Make a mission type specifically for nidus or add sword duals, maybe add something the operator AND the warframe can do together. Fishing is okay but you're using a spear so it's basically just killing anyway (lol). Maybe they could add cars and prime cars, or maybe let us be capable of using our liset outside of a gear device. Have us play komi, not some buggy frame fighter (it's fun but it's still based around violence.) Point is, the reason as to why we can't achieve endgame is because we keep adding content that is heavily relied on killing rather than having something to pass time other than afking in our lisets.

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21 hours ago, FashionFrame said:

Warframe can't have an end game, because it has constant updates, and is constantly evolving. If they implement an "end game", it won't last long, because we continue to evolve and becoming stronger with every passing update.

If you want end game, play something like WoW, where they have literal ends, such as dungeons, weapons and armor, they are all an end. Warframe can't have that. Only way I can see that happening, is if it's like WoW, where you have yearly DLC that locks you to levels and gear, where you can't progress further than what they give. 

 

6 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

But see, this will be said about ANYTHING challenging implemented in a so called "end game" difficulty.

Enemies have high health - bullet sponge! Not real difficulty!

Enemies have high damage - aim is too good! Cheese! Not real difficulty!

Enemy counters abilities - cheese! Band-Aids! Not real difficulty!

I honestly can't think of any way they can make this game challenging that people won't call "fake difficulty"

 

6 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Yeah, no. You can already push yourself if you want. Ask DE for optional missions without rewards that pressure people into joining the kind of elitist subcommitities that were raids and is now organized Eidolon runs. Also, what you define as challenge is just cheese. Take the most broken, infinitely scaling gear and it's no different than playing with an uncatalyzed Excal on Hydron.

This fascination with wanting to see numbers grow shouldn't be reinforced, because all it is is a temporary high you're experiencing before you get used to it and demand to go even further. It's a neverending treadmill of power progression that has nothing to do with skill, challenge or IMO fun.

While not all the people i quoted fall into this category, these list or are examples of thinking too narrow. An issue that has flooded the community lately.

Games like WoW have an endgame, yet have had more power creep than any other hammer in history. How is this possible? You think we're at our most powerful now? Warframe was at its most overpowered back in late U19. Nowadays, we just keep getting power boosts and power boosts, yet no enemy to match. This is why.

 For those who do not remember or were not here, let me give you a little WF history. Level 100 missions were added as an endgame back in 2015. During this time, the highest enemy you'd see unless you went into an endless mission was level 50. Level 50 itself was endgame back in 2013 and 2014, before damage and enemy scaling changed. After updates, reworks, and power creep, level 50 became fodder and players asked DE for higher levels. Testing the waters, DE came out with a Tac called Phoenix Intercept. It had level 150 enemies, which majority of vets deemed sufficient. Satisfied, DE came out with trials and later sorties.

These enemies were scaled up to take on the meta and OP builds of the day. If I were to show you an OP build from back in 2015, you'd laugh your pants off. What was meta back in 2015 would be child's play today. Since then, we've grown so much, yet the enemies we fight are stagnant. Level 100 is able to be destroyed with a team of bullet jumps. It is no longer truthful to the meaning of endgame. I've been fighting the same enemy for almost 3 years, yet my gear is generations ahead in power.

I have a saying that displays this.

 Gear improvements + increasing enemies = progression

Gear improvement + static levels = power creep

People who say warframe is a horde shooter fantasy joined when this was true and already an issue. They don't know how it was before, therefore i don't blame them for thinking that, but it isn't accurate.

Solution? Improve enemies. Improve their AI to not be kamikaze meat walls. Boost their levels. We have 9999 levels in warframe. We use 1% of the enemy levels available to us. If we used just 30%, we'd be set for years of power creep, and it would still be achievable with any frame or combo, you just gotta know what you're doing.

People think that these solutions are fake and won't work. To them i say, the only reason you have the missions you have currently is BECAUSE it works. We didn't always have level 100 enemies. We became super strong, we asked for more difficulty, they gave us more levels. It's like deja vu. We are now super strong and here we are asking for more difficulty. It has worked before and will work again.

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41 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

 

 

While not all the people i quoted fall into this category, these list or are examples of thinking too narrow. An issue that has flooded the community lately.

Games like WoW have an endgame, yet have had more power creep than any other hammer in history. How is this possible? You think we're at our most powerful now? Warframe was at its most overpowered back in late U19. Nowadays, we just keep getting power boosts and power boosts, yet no enemy to match. This is why.

 For those who do not remember or were not here, let me give you a little WF history. Level 100 missions were added as an endgame back in 2015. During this time, the highest enemy you'd see unless you went into an endless mission was level 50. Level 50 itself was endgame back in 2013 and 2014, before damage and enemy scaling changed. After updates, reworks, and power creep, level 50 became fodder and players asked DE for higher levels. Testing the waters, DE came out with a Tac called Phoenix Intercept. It had level 150 enemies, which majority of vets deemed sufficient. Satisfied, DE came out with trials and later sorties.

These enemies were scaled up to take on the meta and OP builds of the day. If I were to show you an OP build from back in 2015, you'd laugh your pants off. What was meta back in 2015 would be child's play today. Since then, we've grown so much, yet the enemies we fight are stagnant. Level 100 is able to be destroyed with a team of bullet jumps. It is no longer truthful to the meaning of endgame. I've been fighting the same enemy for almost 3 years, yet my gear is generations ahead in power.

I have a saying that displays this.

 Gear improvements + increasing enemies = progression

Gear improvement + static levels = power creep

People who say warframe is a horde shooter fantasy joined when this was true and already an issue. They don't know how it was before, therefore i don't blame them for thinking that, but it isn't accurate.

Solution? Improve enemies. Improve their AI to not be kamikaze meat walls. Boost their levels. We have 9999 levels in warframe. We use 1% of the enemy levels available to us. If we used just 30%, we'd be set for years of power creep, and it would still be achievable with any frame or combo, you just gotta know what you're doing.

People think that these solutions are fake and won't work. To them i say, the only reason you have the missions you have currently is BECAUSE it works. We didn't always have level 100 enemies. We became super strong, we asked for more difficulty, they gave us more levels. It's like deja vu. We are now super strong and here we are asking for more difficulty. It has worked before and will work again.

Ok....

How do you "improve a.i." ? It's not just some switch they can flip.

How do you just boost enemy levels? what does that do? It'll simply cater to the meta. That's the last thing the devs want to introduce again. There's too much of a disparity in power levels to simply scale enemies.  Either they become unbearable bullet sponges to all but a few frames or one shot all but a few frames.  Sortie level is kind of The Sweet Spot where any frame can do the content.

Maybe you are being narrow minded in thinking that Warframe end game has to be about dark souls difficulty or chasing the meta. It's not. It's about collecting. Zaws, rivens, grinding is the end game.

Edited by Hypernaut1
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19 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I would agree with you, if Steve hadn't already announced that Railjack will be able to be played solo. People cried on the forums about required coop in Railjack and wanting to play solo (in a coop online game, go figure), and DE caved in and already said Railjack will be solo friendly. See a trend here?

You accuse others of ad hominem and what do you do? You dismiss the solo players as "crying on the forums". You need to think about opinions and their validity in terms of them being subjective, I believe.

You cannot have a fair discussion when you dismiss people you disagree with outright. And you need to accept yours is just another opinion and not the universal truth. Moving on.

---

Everything in Warframe has to have an option to be played solo. Warframe is not a club for bored veterans or people who have 3 other people to play with 24/7. Even if everybody had these 3 people anytime they need them, we all have bad days when we just want to do something by ourselves while casually sipping a drink and going with our own pace instead of being forced into speed we might find stressing on that particular day. We're humans, not bots.

Mandating people to be in a group in order to get certain rewards only leads to toxicity and people getting burned out and leaving.

It's baffling how some people, apparently you included, cannot see that. ^ It has been historically proven practically in every game I've been, including WoW.

Gaming fun includes having options on how do you consume the content. DE seems to agree. You disagree. Interesting discrepancy.

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18 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Fundamental changes would have to made, especially to the energy economy

Here is an interesting tidbit that seemingly all veterans ignore every time:

At the start of the game there is no energy economy to speak of.

I actually quit Warframe for like half a year, I don't remember -- I play for 2 months now and haven't played ever since the Twitch deal for Frost Prime whom I got with it. You know why? I played something like 40-50 hours in total, 2 weeks with a very moderate schedule, 2-3h a day maybe. I got bored because the game was just a 3D shooter with the best parkour I have ever experienced. But like 3/4 of the times I wanted to cast an ability, I had no energy. I just gave up even reading the ability descriptions and was like "perhaps this is an endgame mechanic" and concentrated on being efficient rifle + melee killer. It got boring very quickly.

Now you can tell me I was a noob and did not know what I was doing and you would be 100% correct. But may I remind everyone that the first impressions are extremely important and it does not matter one bit if the player was in the wrong. If something is not intuitive right from the get go then the people can and will get discouraged and you will lose a customer.

Took me months and months until I gradually realized (watching a few short streams, randomly bumping into people who play WF both in the real life and online etc.) that Warframe is actually NOT just a glorified 3D shooter. (Granted, I was not actively trying to understand, it was a gradual process.)

---

So please, with all due respect and without any insult in mind -- don't look at the game only through the glasses of the veterans. Even today (after getting my 63 days login award) if I don't pop energy pizzas here and there my Mesa would be nothing more than a slightly overpowered Overwatch dropout character. I did 3x infested Defense missions yesterday for Mutagen Mass; I was swimming in energy orbs in the first two runs. I was just using Peacemaker on a high vantage point and was clearing waves in 15-20 seconds, the only slowdown being the spawn rate. And then on the 3rd run I actually had to drop 4 energy pizzas due to only 1-2 energy orb drops in 5-6 minutes run.

The energy orb drop rates are absurdly chaotic and unreliable. Let us have 50% less energy orbs overall, I don't mind, but make them drop consistently please.

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vor 11 Minuten schrieb Gofretko:

The energy orb drop rates are absurdly chaotic and unreliable. Let us have 50% less energy orbs overall, I don't mind, but make them drop consistently please.

That's why i'm all for a global energy regen independant from Zenurik. Check my energy rework link ;).

Otherwise you're right, i'm seeing the game through the glasses of a vet, i can hardly argue about the current state of the early game, i guess that poses numerous problems itself. Still i believe it'd make sense to balance the game from top to bottom, so to speak. I remember i got lots of support from my clan early on, but that doesn't apply to everyone i guess... Also my starter was Loki (back when that was a thing), so i was introduced to the idea of cheesing pretty much from the start, too.

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Fairly new player here, started 1.5 months ago.

There is no endgame (content-wise). Of course, that doesn't mean you can't have hundreds or thousands of hours of entertainment with it, but still. Granted, I currently have a lot of free time and thus managed to get to MR 22 in that time, including making a clan and researching everything (except for Hema...), farming every non-prime frame and getting every weapon/frame from unvaulted relics, maxing out 3 syndicates, aswell as Quills and Ostron.

That's the point where the question pops up.. Well, what now? I mean sure, you can fully dive into min-maxing, but the point is, the game doesn't give you any incentive or need to do so. Sure, I could try doing 4h survivals.. but why? It is not rewarding whatsoever. There's no difficult boss fights (only thing coming close to that are the Eidolons I guess), or higher level missions, actually relevant leaderboards (all-time, or with rewards), or special missions forcing you to adapt (like using modifiers like sortie does, or restrictions to squad size).

Having some endgame/longterm goals or challenges doesn't mean the game can't be developed any further than that, nearly every MMORPG out there is a valid counter argument for that.

I enjoy playing the game as it is, but I don't see how I would still be playing it in one year, actively at least.

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21 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Add to that the very real fact these types of 'sky is falling unless you do X' posts proliferate from day one on every single game forum and that leads to a lot of people not really interested in coddling such discussions.

Let's not forget that 9/10 times the people who are clamouring for "end game" are highly likely to be the same who'd complain, whine, moan and REEEE at the first hurdle of a challenge.

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12 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Otherwise you're right, i'm seeing the game through the glasses of a vet, i can hardly argue about the current state of the early game, i guess that poses numerous problems itself.

Thanks for recognizing it and being civil.

Fact is, Warframe can be very easily mistaken for only a 3D shooter in the early game because of the unreliable energy orb drops. If even only that is addressed IMO the onboarding process will be much clearer.

Can't we also have somebody (Lotus, Ordis) remind the new players to use their abilities every once in a while? And stop doing that once you hit MR3 or MR4, maybe? I realize this might need tons of expensive new voice-overs though. I have no solution but still sounds like something that can help new players immersion. If the voice-overs are limited to only Excalibur / Mag / Volt I can see how this can be more manageable.

Probably other new players have quit over finding early WF too repetitive and bland. What does it matter which frame I equip if I cannot exercise its distinctive play style until I can produce and use the first energy pizzas?

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21 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:
 

Let's not forget that 9/10 times the people who are clamouring for "end game" are highly likely to be the same who'd complain, whine, moan and REEEE at the first hurdle of a challenge.

i think the community wants enemies that ACT like they're posing an actual challenge, but the player still comes out victorious in the end no matter what.

Nullifiers were challenging AND counterable. They changed the battlefield, required special attention, did not rely on high damage to defeat, gave you fair warning about their presence....community complained. They werent made irrelevant, but people still hate on them and dont consider them a "real" challenge. You know how i would improve A.I? i would make actual hit squads hide in that bubble as they approached the player. I bet players would hate that though. They would complain about not being able to use a sniper...well that is good A.I. why wouldn't the corpus make it difficult for you to snipe them if they have tech like nully bubbles? Shouldn't a player earn that snipe by taking the appropriate secondary to pop bubble?

The infested Ancients were challenging. They telegraphed their hooks. You knew that when you saw one, you needed to get distance and take them down, or be hooked and dragged into a mob. All it took was awareness of your surroundings to spot one, avoid it and deal with it before it gained the advantage. Community hated it. Now Ancients are just walking bullet sponges. There were ways to counter it though, You could either stay away, or use one of the utility mods to instantly recover...but no, thats too much work, Not real difficulty. Enemies shouldnt be smart enough to telegraph a hook...but they should be smart enough to just walk slowly towards you and eat bullets.

Manics took all of your focus at one time. They were like a sub-mini boss. When you heard one laughing, you had to stop what you were doing and wait for it to strike. If you weren't vigilant enough, it would pounce on you and do significant damage. They were fast, and you couldnt always kill them in one hit, they would disappear and strike again. They telegraphed their presence with the laugh. Gave you time to prepare. If you paid attention, they werent difficult at all. Dead in 3 or so hits, but you HAD to pay attention. Thats fair difficulty to me....but people hated it. Now you barely recognise them when they show up and they go down with hardly a fight. Were they not a "smart" enemy? They didnt walk towards you, they toyed with you. That was decent a.i....community hated it. 

Bursas kicked your butt at one time for leaving the alarms running in corpus levels. When they showed up, you HAD to maneuver to get the upper hand and hit them from behind. Their attacks were lethal if you tried to face it front on. Seems pretty smart to me, an enemy that protects its vulnerable side, one that shows up because you were being careles with the alarms...people hated it. No one cares about shutting off alarms anymore because Bursas are a non issue. Theyre slow to turn around and their attacks tickle. 

We'v HAD challenging and intelligent enemies. theyve been nerfed every time. Even Grineer  grunts had their blunt walls nerfed because people didnt like the instant cover they gave themselves. Their snipers were not only given a laser sight to telegraph (good change), they had their accuracy dropped to nothing. There are many more examples where the community pusshed and pushed until DE nerfs an enemy into becoming a slightly different kind of fodder instead of some that changes the battlefield. 

Im not saying that the same people wanting a challenge are also the same complaining about enemies, but as a whole the community is bi-polar. They want a challenge, but dont want to be challenged. 

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19 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

.

Gear improvements + increasing enemies = progression

Gear improvement + static levels = power creep (Power Fantasy game)

 

Solution? Improve enemies. Improve their AI to not be kamikaze meat walls.

This man gets it. He just gets it, plain and simple.

 

The game is aimed to creates a placebo for pleasant players rewarding them like a child. There is no real challenge or horde modes for those who wants fair challenge. The game needs to become a challenge on some parts for those well deserved rewards. The game should pose real threats against a certain set of enemies. The enemy needs to be feared. We don't want to toy with them all the time. That sucks and becomes boring.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i think the community wants enemies that ACT like they're posing an actual challenge, but the player still comes out victorious in the end no matter what.

Nullifiers were challenging AND counterable. They changed the battlefield, required special attention, did not rely on high damage to defeat, gave you fair warning about their presence....community complained. They weren't made irrelevant, but people still hate on them and dont consider them a "real" challenge. You know how i would improve A.I? i would make actual hit squads hide in that bubble as they approached the player. I bet players would hate that though. They would complain about not being able to use a sniper...well that is good A.I. why wouldn't the corpus make it difficult for you to snipe them if they have tech like nully bubbles? Shouldn't a player earn that snipe by taking the appropriate secondary to pop bubble?

The infested Ancients were challenging. They telegraphed their hooks. You knew that when you saw one, you needed to get distance and take them down, or be hooked and dragged into a mob. All it took was awareness of your surroundings to spot one, avoid it and deal with it before it gained the advantage. Community hated it. Now Ancients are just walking bullet sponges. There were ways to counter it though, You could either stay away, or use one of the utility mods to instantly recover...but no, thats too much work, Not real difficulty. Enemies shouldnt be smart enough to telegraph a hook...but they should be smart enough to just walk slowly towards you and eat bullets.

Manics took all of your focus at one time. They were like a sub-mini boss. When you heard one laughing, you had to stop what you were doing and wait for it to strike. If you weren't vigilant enough, it would pounce on you and do significant damage. They were fast, and you couldnt always kill them in one hit, they would disappear and strike again. They telegraphed their presence with the laugh. Gave you time to prepare. If you paid attention, they werent difficult at all. Dead in 3 or so hits, but you HAD to pay attention. Thats fair difficulty to me....but people hated it. Now you barely recognise them when they show up and they go down with hardly a fight. Were they not a "smart" enemy? They didnt walk towards you, they toyed with you. That was decent a.i....community hated it. 

Bursas kicked your butt at one time for leaving the alarms running in corpus levels. When they showed up, you HAD to maneuver to get the upper hand and hit them from behind. Their attacks were lethal if you tried to face it front on. Seems pretty smart to me, an enemy that protects its vulnerable side, one that shows up because you were being careles with the alarms...people hated it. No one cares about shutting off alarms anymore because Bursas are a non issue. Theyre slow to turn around and their attacks tickle. 

We'v HAD challenging and intelligent enemies. theyve been nerfed every time. Even Grineer  grunts had their blunt walls nerfed because people didnt like the instant cover they gave themselves. Their snipers were not only given a laser sight to telegraph (good change), they had their accuracy dropped to nothing. There are many more examples where the community pusshed and pushed until DE nerfs an enemy into becoming a slightly different kind of fodder instead of some that changes the battlefield. 

Im not saying that the same people wanting a challenge are also the same complaining about enemies, but as a whole the community is bi-polar. They want a challenge, but dont want to be challenged. 

 

CORRECT!!!

 

When DE gives great enemies AI behavior people B.I.T.C.H to no end for nerfs. 

 

Sorry but I have to be rude, that constant whining and moaning of enemy downgrade is what makes this game boring. 

If people are bad players then they need to stop being so butthurt about it and get good. Simple. If players do not know how to counter these enemies, they need to see how other experts counters them. It's called BASIC RESEARCH. 

 

Edited by Felsagger
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