Rivens are implemented very poorly and I don't know if DE cares

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

8 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Okay, here is a ten second suggestion. 

 

Completely rework Rivens into a mod infusion system. You infuse your max rank mods into a 'base' Riven (only has a +damage stat). This infusion consumes the max rank mod. After you infuse, the Riven goes back to an unranked state where you have to spend endo and kuva to rank it back up to max. Once the Riven is maxed, you can start another challenge for the option to 'infuse' another mod (with reduced conversion and increased kuva requirements). 

 

But you know what the majority response will be? "that is too drastic a change" "what about the riven market" "don't nerf my God roll Tiberon Riven". From what I have gathered in most riven discussions, many people would rather be content than have something change. That is why I get "sensational" in Riven discussions. Rivens could be amazing, they could be an end game progression that the game sorely needs, but instead they are a slot machine. I hate the "f" word (fine), sensationalism is a way for me to try to get people to look past it. 

When you say infusion, do you mean add a different mod to give it another stat (ie the base is +damage and the next infusion would add +MS). It's very drastic and I kind of dig the idea. If DE ever gets back to the Damage 3.0 (or whatever it's called) then I'd be all for this.

[dreadgame]

Tough is life.

[(PSN)LordBartimus]

I hear this every day "Riven are just loot boxes!" no They aren't. A lootbox is something you spend money on to directly open it for a chance at something. Rivens are earned in game in and are rolled with an in game. Currency that can't be bought with platinum or microtransaction. Now, with that said, a disposition pass would be nice, even if it kills my Vectis. 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Only thing we need is either more kuva floods or kuva floods fixed at a node for an hr then moves to another node. No break in-between... as i only run floods if i can help it.

We also need a harder kuva flood... Maybe have a kuva nightmare mode or something that gives a base 1800 kuva(3600) with booster, and no more frantically searching for kuva siphons... They are in a fixed position in the minimap.

Also need poe kuva siphon missions.

Also... Ive blown through 100k kuva in 5 mins... I dont want a new riven rolling system, just more/better kuva farming missions.

Also need away to leave kuva survival individual like.

Would love a kuva siphon archwing mission.

Edited September 16, 2018 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

I'm actually fine with rivens as they are.

[Ventasis]

I agree that rivens are cancer (or at the very least, their implementation is). I saw a poor soul earlier this week who had rolled a lanka riven 443 times (1.5 million kuva) & still didn't have a satisfying roll. 

[(XBOX)Eminem2420]

I hated rivens when they were first implemented, and i like them even less now. They are a band-aid fix at best, and glorified slot machines at worse. Considering that DE hasn't even really mentioned rivens for awhile, i highly doubt they care. Rivens are easily the worst addition made to WF in recent memory. They make the already great weapons broken, and the poor or crap weapons only barely usable. Of course, good luck trying to get a riven for the specific weapon you want one for. I know there are some people happy with the current system, because they are the ones benefiting from it. And that is all that matters, right? Forget about the rest, they're not important. 

[elZach]

It would be funny if riven-rolling worked like fissure missions and relics. You do missions (lvl100+ assaults or sth) and at the end everybody gets a new random roll on their riven and you can see what the others were rolling.

[ikkabotz]

On 2018-09-14 at 1:16 AM, GinKenshin said:

The funny thing about it, the only roll people consider to be ‘good’ is a one that has the usual generic stats that’ll make the wep ‘good’, they don’t look at the stats of the wep, what it’s missing, what mods in the build can be replaced with the riven...etc. the idea that if a Riven doesn’t have these ‘god’ stats then it’s bad riven needs to change 

That might be true for someone still learning the game, but often "god rivens" are in fact very good...otherwise everyone could be calling their riven something godlike pushing their generic stats for 2k plat. There are without a doubt very good rivens and people who know the difference. 

[OvisCaedo]

Of course rivens are poorly implemented, they were put into the game with absolutely NO thought put into them in order to avoid doing the ACTUAL work of balancing weak weapons.

Reminder that on launch, rivens did not HAVE disposition; the meta weapons with excellent base stats had the exact same values from rivens as all of the garbage weapons that, surprise, were garbage because their base stats were too low to scale off of anything. Rivens being stronger for weak weapons was something the community actually had to rally and campaign for because SOMEHOW this disconnect had not even occurred to DE. There was also not a cap on how high the reroll cost scaled, because in continuing with DE's complete disconnect from the reality of their game and its scaling, they insisted that people shouldn't be rerolling so many times because obviously the only reason they would do that is because they were being too dismissive of blatantly bad stats being blatantly bad. You don't KNOW that +zoom and -100% multishot is bad!!!

and then there's the fact that the rivens themselves and all of their random values are SO badly coded that DE claims it is actually taxing on their databases and servers just to have them exist, hence the cap on how many you can hold. Which later was conveniently extendable considerably with plat!

Now it's been years of the system festering and the plat market has spiralled into absolute absurdity, with the weapon balance pass that they should have done to start with now resulting in absurd combinations with the dispositions that were left alone for years. At this point I don't think there is any clean solution, and I'm not sure that DE would want one when such massive amounts of plat get flung around by the current state of things.

Edited September 17, 2018 by OvisCaedo

[Walkampf]

Am 15.9.2018 um 21:45 schrieb (PS4)LordBartimus:

I hear this every day "Riven are just loot boxes!" no They aren't. A lootbox is something you spend money on to directly open it for a chance at something. Rivens are earned in game in and are rolled with an in game.

According to this logic, any game which hands out any oh-so-small amout of lootboxes for free are no Lootboxes at all, because you don't "need" to spend money and can be earned ingame.

Overwatch for example has no lootboxes then, since you are able to get a (very small) amount for free... BlittardActivision will be pleased to here this!

You are basically standing right in middle europe and when you hear hoof-claps you try to argue that a Zebra has to be nearby, instead of the obvious horse.

 

In all seriousness, you are klinging to minor details and ignoring the all the obvious stuff. 

Riven are a highly random mechanic, which unique visual and auditorial stimuly when pulling the slotmachines arm in order to cause dopamin rushes, with a massive incentive to spend money, in this case recource boosters to increase the number of times, you are able to hit the lever.

Sure, the Riven don't not get consumed when you roll it and you "only" pay to roll it, but the same it true for actual slot machines. (Which also don't disappear, when you spin them.)

[SquireAngel]

When it comes to rivens, of course every one would like to have 'God tier' rolls. However, tbh, I don't really think that the higher demand rivens are really worth it. I have never played more than 500 play for a singular riven, and the most expensive one I've gotten, a 1kish value one, I traded for. For the minmaxers who will pay 200$ for a single riven, I think rather overkill. That being said, I played MTG for quite a while, so certain cards would be worth 50$ and upwards. To a casual player like me, it was outlandish to try paying 50 dollars or more for a single card, when I could buy a decent number of booster packs for the same amount. However, to the heavily competitive scene, that single card was much more worth than the average cards you get in a booster.

 

In the end, Rivens can do what DE wants them to. Almost every Riven I own, 40ish of them, is for an off meta weapon, such as the Daikyu and Karak wraith. Some of them I have rolled a few times, and some of them I find well enough to say enough. I think the only real issue with riven rolls is the afore mentioned slog of a grind kuva can be. 

[Teridax68]

I completely agree with the OP. I too love DE to bits, and I support them in the amazing work they do, but the Riven mod system I think has been one of those changes that had a detrimental effect on the game. The implementation was rushed and poorly done from the start, and to this day it piles on immense amount of frustration for a RNG chance at adding even more power to already strong weapons. Even if some players like this or feel attached to it, the net effect is still one more layer of power creep.

In general, it feels like there's been a kind of back-and-forth on the grind in Warframe: for a time, DE acknowledged that the game is grindy, and vowed to fix that, but then not only did little of that change, we actually ended up with more grind, including through Riven mods, incredibly slow progression in PoE, bounties, ultra-grindy frames like Khora, and so on. Because there is comparatively little discussion around the grind, it comes across like DE is adding more of it because they feel they can get away with it, despite how much it harmed their image upon PoE's release. We need to hold the developers accountable to this, but also show that we do it with love, because we genuinely like DE and their game and want it to improve, not just because we're angry or disappointed. This should mean either reworking or removing Riven mods, and looking for better ways to enable weapon diversity and customization.

[Buttaface]

On ‎14‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 10:01 AM, DrBorris said:

Don't say "you don't need Rivens" because that is pretty much the same as saying "you don't need Serration". You are right, I don't 'need' it, but it is part of the game and is a major power leveling system.

Complete nonsense based on a false equivalence. Whereas rivens can certainly have higher weapon boosts than base mods, the amount of overall increased effect in the game from them past base mods is negligible. Rivens are in no way a "major power leveling system" in WF as a matter of fact and not opinion. They are mostly vanity items for bored vets, more akin to cosmetics than the gear that is truly part of doing well in the game. There are few game modes within WF where a riven offers any increased game performance whatsoever, and in those few game modes, the impact of rivens is still minimal, maybe not even measurable.

To the topic, if a player is seeking perfect min/max gear in a game that does not require it or reward it in any measurable way, that's a player problem of misperception of what game they are actually playing. There are games, any based on the EQ treadmill that was polished into WoW, that -require- increasingly powerful gear to do the next tier of content. WF is not that game, and the repetition of the mistake that it is in threads like this becomes obnoxious.

To repeat from elsewhere, the most powerful items in WF are cheap; boosters, potatoes, slots for frames and weapons that allow more flexibility, and forma. If newer players who make the repetitive "riven needed" error would realize that, they'd be much better off and do much better in the game.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Buttaface

[BLI7Z]

En 14/9/2018 a las 14:09, DrBorris dijo:

Okay, here is a ten second suggestion. 

 

Completely rework Rivens into a mod infusion system. You infuse your max rank mods into a 'base' Riven (only has a +damage stat). This infusion consumes the max rank mod and adds its trait to the Riven (conversion rate is dependent on disposition). After you infuse, the Riven goes back to an unranked state where you have to spend endo and kuva to rank it back up to max. Once the Riven is maxed, you can start another challenge for the option to 'infuse' another mod (with reduced conversion and increased kuva requirements). 

 

But you know what the majority response will be? "that is too drastic a change" "what about the riven market" "don't nerf my God roll Tiberon Riven". From what I have gathered in most riven discussions, many people would rather be content than have something change. That is why I get "sensational" in Riven discussions. Rivens could be amazing, they could be an end game progression that the game sorely needs, but instead they are a slot machine. I hate the "f" word (fine), sensationalism is a way for me to try to get people to look past it. 

I really like that idea. Hope something like this will be implemented. I don't want to buy rivens with plat, nor I want to farm so much kuva feeling I waste my time...

With something like this, I would gladly farm a lot of endo and kuva, rank up more copies of the same mods, because I would feel that my time and efforts go towards something.

I hate casinos, and riven reroll feels like it. I don't enjoy nor like using my time/resources into random stuff that doesn't depend on ability of efficiency, but purely on sheer luck.

That's the reason I don't play Black Desert anymore. The upgrading system for equipment makes you waste HUNDREDS of hours of gameplay if you fail. 

[Buttaface]

On ‎14‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 9:10 AM, BoarWarrior said:

For those in despair about rivens: do some research on how much people usually need to roll a single riven to get acceptable stats for it. I can tell you: at most 50 or so rolls, usually. You rarely see a riven rolled much more than 50 times. It happens, but not that often. And then it can be people who are after that god roll and acceptable is not good enough for them.

This.

Just checked my riven stash, which is now complete after lots of trading around for the ones I want over the time since they came out, and almost certainly similar to many vet players' riven collections. 63 rivens, all maxed, no trash, a few just good, most excellent, some top tier. All vanity, hasn't affected my performance in the game or completion of content one iota, but fun to trade, brag and fiddle with, and something else to do in WF for players who have done and redone the content. That's the true value of rivens in the game, just something else for those who have done everything to do, and in that aspect, they have been as good a content addition as any.

Of those 63, 48 have been rolled 1-5 times, 13 have been rolled 6-15 times, and only TWO rolled more than 15 times (not going to log back in and count how many weren't rolled at all, but IIRC, it's more than 20). None, zero, were rolled more than 26 times. Let that sink in versus the absurd claims in all these riven whine threads. Of those 63, 48 have been rolled 1-5 times. Are there high rolled rivens out there? Sure, I see them regularly in trade chat and on riven market. But they are exceptions. When I see one rolled more than 50 times it's an eyebrow raiser.

Also of note is that I hate farming kuva and have done very little of it. I have spent maybe 30k kuva rolling rivens total, over half of that gotten from sorties and bounties. Moreover, I don't spend lots of $$ on WF and haven't bought plat in about a year since a 75% off coupon. I do lots of trading though, more than most, less than some, because I have IRL constraints on playing the game other than trading. Even if I were a big $$ spender, the fact remains that ~75% of the great rivens I currently have were rolled by -someone- 0-5 times. The point of this paragraph is that anyone who understands the damage mechanics, the various weapons, and is willing to trade, can get plenty of rivens without playing some fictional "slot machine." And again for emphasis, YOU DON'T NEED THEM, they are just fun things to play with and trade, and if you are a newer player worrying about rivens and not other aspects of this game, you are making a mistake. WF is not -that- game.

If someone said "OK Buttaface, you need to give up either all the rivens or all the cosmetics you've accumulated in WF," I'd instantly choose to give up the rivens over the cosmetics, and I have no doubt 90%+ of vet players would decide similarly. Newer players inclined to whine about rivens, please, for your own good in the game, read and reread this paragraph until it sinks in.

So why do posters and players MAKE UP all this "lootbox," "lottery" nonsense about rivens and repeat the fabrications in thread after thread? My opinions are 1. They don't understand the game mechanics well enough yet to understand that WF is not a tiered gear game and rivens aren't necessary or even impactful on completing the content. 2. As other posters in other of these threads point out, there is an attitude of "must have perfect gear" that comes from other games, players who have that attitude tend to also be the ones who will grind out kuva and roll and reroll looking for a totally unnecessary "perfect storm" of stat rolls on their rivens. When they don't get it, they complain or fault the overall system instead of their own cognitive errors about the game. 3. Players are unwilling to trade or learn how to make plat in WF, or are unwilling to support the game by buying some plat periodically. 4. Players with low awareness/understanding of fictional game markets make the mistake of believing that certain WTS prices on rivens are an accurate representation of their worth in playing the game. THEY ARE NOT.

Sorry for post length, but procrastinating work on a Monday.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Buttaface

[IRVoidGuru]

On 2018-09-14 at 2:50 AM, (PS4)Oracle-Raven said:

I've wasted 9 Sorties worth of Kuva (55000+) on cycling Rivens, and got NOTHING out of it. Niet. Nada. Zilch.
I'm also convinced many other players have wasted way much more than that.

Basically, you can farm Kuva for hours doing Kuva Siphons / Flood missions or "endless" Kuva on the Fortress, yet end up with nothing in return.

The Riven reroll system offers you a chance at good stats as long as you pay Kuva. What you got were several chances, taking a chance is something that you will never be able to show something for.

On 2018-09-14 at 2:50 AM, (PS4)Oracle-Raven said:

TERA used to have a very similar lackluster system, except they knew it was sewage and they've fixed it since by allowing players to retain a modifier or two after "cycling" equipment.
Now I just feel angry and empty inside. I feel like demolishing a wall with a sledgehammer after having wasted so much time and getting nothing in return to show for it.

Try going gambling and then show me the number of chances you took physically. Is it possible?

On 2018-09-14 at 2:50 AM, (PS4)Oracle-Raven said:

Now I'm sure some of you will defend slot machines Rivens. I'm not saying they're all bad. Sure, maybe they provide "veterans" with a way to make plat. Why not. The challenges can either be fun and challenging, or feel like the most utterly frustrating experience known to mankind where you'd rather punch something cute in the face with a gauntlet full of nails. That's fine too, whatever. The issues I'm having begin with the part where we have a system where players can end up with nothing after dumping this much Kuva. It's extremely insulting. I mean, it's not even the fact that they frequently end up with nothing, it's the fact that it's even possible at all to end with nothing after this much investment. The mere possibility of it baffles me. 

I'm running 22 plus loadouts all of which do not use any of the same weapons. Riven mods have made this possible.

My favorite weapon in the game,the torid became much stronger after rivens were introduced. And my usage of the weapons skyrocketed.

On 2018-09-14 at 2:50 AM, (PS4)Oracle-Raven said:

And then, there's the part that bothers me the most. In the Warframe documentary from Noclip, Sheldon even highlighted the time when they removed the Kubrow slot machine because it was getting out of hand. [DE] prides itself on that, yet they don't seem to care at all about the current state of Rivens. They barely even address them at all. It's like sweeping cocaine under the rug whenever there's visit.

The problem with the kubrow slot machine is that it costs Platinum, or another words real money. 

A slot machine based on a resource that you have to farm is not that bad, I simply wish we got more kuva for the time we spend.

On 2018-09-14 at 2:50 AM, (PS4)Oracle-Raven said:

Other things that irk me about Rivens include their initial core design, which was to breathe new life into weapons that get less use. That's not what Rivens do. Nobody's gonna use a Hind or a single Bolto either way. Rivens only make weapons that are already good better. Guess what did breathe new life into old weapons? The Primary, Secondary & Beam workshops.

I just completely disagree with this statement. I've never seen ad many people want strun Wraith b4 riven mods.

On 2018-09-14 at 2:50 AM, (PS4)Oracle-Raven said:

And [DE] doesn't even do the upkeep on Riven disposition. Why has the Sicarus disposition remained so high for so long after it got its buff? Why is the disposition for the Tonkor so ridiculously low, despite that weapon having been nerfed into the ground since so long ago?

I agree with this but how would you implement the upkeep of dispositions?  Reducing the disposition of that weapon also means reducing the current in game stats of rivens for that weapon. Overall reducing their worth. How do you regulate it often without upsetting players?

 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

1 hour ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

I agree with this but how would you implement the upkeep of dispositions?  Reducing the disposition of that weapon also means reducing the current in game stats of rivens for that weapon. Overall reducing their worth. How do you regulate it often without upsetting players?

Ah, so you're implying DE cares more about making money from platinum purchases than the principles and philosophies of their game? I don't care either way, but if DE cares more about making plat from the riven systems, then they lied about how they advertised regarding the riven system in the very beginning. DE said the riven system is for making unpopular weapons more interesting to certain players and in a way make the weapons more "balanced."

Also, DE didn't seem to care about the majority of the player base when they nerfed the tonkor and synoid simulor, along with their dispositions. What's wrong with doing it again?

Edited September 18, 2018 by CrystalSpark

[seprent]

43 minutes ago, CrystalSpark said:

Ah, so you're implying DE cares more about making money from platinum purchases than the principles and philosophies of their game? I don't care either way, but if DE cares more about making plat from the riven systems, then they lied about how they advertised regarding the riven system in the very beginning. DE said the riven system is for making unpopular weapons more interesting to certain players and in a way make the weapons more "balanced."

Also, DE didn't seem to care about the majority of the player base when they nerfed the tonkor and synoid simulor, along with their dispositions. What's wrong with doing it again?

wasn't the tonkor nerf literally chopping 10% crit chance off and the ability to grenade hop it still kills pretty much anything pointed at it you you make it sound like it doesn't do jack now 

and the synoid im pretty sure was nerfed because of all the mirage synoids running around blinding everyone because they never heard of dark colors being about as game interactive as a tf2 w+m1 pyro 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

15 minutes ago, seprent said:

wasn't the tonkor nerf literally chopping 10% crit chance off and the ability to grenade hop it still kills pretty much anything pointed at it you you make it sound like it doesn't do jack now 

and the synoid im pretty sure was nerfed because of all the mirage synoids running around blinding everyone because they never heard of dark colors being about as game interactive as a tf2 w+m1 pyro 

Headshots matter...

Edited September 18, 2018 by CrystalSpark

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I have the cure... If you don't like rivens.... DO NOT USE THEM

[seprent]

32 minutes ago, CrystalSpark said:

Headshots matter...

i dont use bomb launchers to head shot things i use bomb launchers to blow stuff up 

if i wanted head shots id pick up my vectis 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

8 minutes ago, seprent said:

i dont use bomb launchers to head shot things i use bomb launchers to blow stuff up 

if i wanted head shots id pick up my vectis 

I do more sustain dps with a braton prime than a tonkor on enemies over level 100, I guess below level 100, the explosives would perform better due to having area-of-effect. However, since they changed the head shot mechanics on explosives, they don't scale as well in terms of damage. Also, there are better AoE weapons out there than tonkor, penta, and synoid simulor now, especially with rivens, for example atomos and amprex, which are beam weapons.

Also, I see more players using Lenz than Tonkor in public, too...wonder why, I honestly, don't know why either. Guess you could say it's power creep...

Edited September 18, 2018 by CrystalSpark

[seprent]

13 minutes ago, CrystalSpark said:

I do more sustain dps with a braton prime than a tonkor on enemies over level 100, I guess below level 100, the explosives would perform better due to having area-of-effect. However, since they changed the head shot mechanics on explosives, they don't scale as well in terms of damage. Also, there are better AoE weapons out there than tonkor, penta, and synoid simulor now, especially with rivens, for example atomos and amprex, which are beam weapons.

Also, I see more players using Lenz than Tonkor in public, too...wonder why, I honestly, don't know why either. Guess you could say it's power creep...

for the lenz answer i would say lenz + hunter munitions probebly

[CosmicHermitCrab]

Anyways, to get back to topic, the fact is the majority of players didn't like the nerfs done on explosives and synoid simulor; there are so many old forums posts and youtube videos about it. The point I was making wasn't if tonkor and synoid simulor are currently good weapons or not, it's regarding about how to please the community, which is what the poster, (PS4)IrSchm33, who I quoted was regarding as well.

I said...

2 hours ago, CrystalSpark said:

Also, DE didn't seem to care about the majority of the player base when they nerfed the tonkor and synoid simulor, along with their dispositions. What's wrong with doing it again?

This has nothing to do with Tonkor nor Synoid Simulor being bad weapons, in the first place. It has to do with the community being dissatisfied with the past nerfs done onto these two weapons.

3 hours ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

How do you regulate it often without upsetting players?

Good question...I think the riven system is doomed to upset the player base in certain periods of the game, from the way it is currently.

Edited September 18, 2018 by CrystalSpark