Fed up with Sayrn being so stupid OP

[Pizzarugi]

On 2018-11-08 at 5:16 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Meanwhile my personal best is fighting level 609 enemies. Being able to easily fight level 200-300+ enemies on Saryn or Octavia.

Do you not see the problem here? There's nothing in the game that recognizes enemies at level 200-609. There's no reason for any weapon or frame to exist that can tackle that level, because DE is doing everything they can to limit content to the star chart. It only goes as far as level 60, and I'm not counting missions like kuva floods, sorties, and arbitrations, because they are time-gated between 1-24 hours.

Nerfing Ember's press-4-to-win absurdity may be considered a huge nerf in your opinion, but it fits just fine in the star chart and occasional sortie, where everything else should be.

And by the way, players who exist only for high level content are only limiting themselves to other fun things, and they shouldn't be setting the bar for DE adding new content. Times have changed, there's not a whole lot of incentive to encourage players to even try running endless missions beyond the first C rotation, because the danger only goes up while the rewards stay the same. About 3/4 endless missions I do, most people tend to bail after the first C reward, because it's just easier to keep the enemies low level than push yourself to the limit.

The last time players had incentive to keep pushing themselves was when we had void keys, and they weren't easy to farm for, making it more rewarding to run the one key you have for as long as you can to get the reward you desperately want. Believe me, I miss the days when I used to run survival for 2 hours or more just trying to get that old Loki Prime Chassis. Nowadays, I have no reason to stick around for anything past the 20 minute mark.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Pizzarugi

[Keltik0ne]

19 hours ago, sixmille said:

It's not just Saryn. There are two categories of warframes, the well designed ones like Excalibur, Nidus, Atlas or Harrow, strong but they have clear limits, and the others like Saryn, Volt, Equinox, Nova or Limbo, with theoretical limits that are never met because of their immense scaling or stopping power. A few warframes are in between like Mesa too. The second category is poorly designed not because they're too strong per se, but because they haven't been designed with 3 other players in mind. Team play is by far the most common scenario according to DE's data so it's the one that should be the priority.

If you take a Nidus or Excalibur in a lvl 150 survival, you will still do your job as a damage dealer but not to the point that the rest of the team can just AFK in a corner with trinity

Yea, you really don't realise that Nidus is god tier in higher level content I see.

He snowballs from highpowered to god tier+ with a scaling that other frames dream of and is nigh unkillable.

Case in point, solo for an hour in arbi survivals on a Nidus, now try again on a Saryn.

[EinheriarJudith]

41 minutes ago, Keltik0ne said:

Yea, you really don't realise that Nidus is god tier in higher level content I see.

He snowballs from highpowered to god tier+ with a scaling that other frames dream of and is nigh unkillable.

Case in point, solo for an hour in arbi survivals on a Nidus, now try again on a Saryn.

nidus cannot delete the whole room. larva has LoS limitation. saryn has no LoS limitation in a group (since this is what we are talking about) nidus can be unkillable as he likes and as strong as he likes but one thing he cannot do is delete the room leaving the other squad mates with nothing to do.

[Endrian]

All this high-level talk just made me think about that one alert (Tactical Operation? I forget) where you fight like... level 6,000 enemies, and there were Grineer Manics everywhere and it was on a Corpus ship so you could occasionally get lucky and hack a console and get the assistance of a level 6,000 Moa.

[Endrian]

3 hours ago, Keltik0ne said:

Yea, you really don't realise that Nidus is god tier in higher level content I see.

He snowballs from highpowered to god tier+ with a scaling that other frames dream of and is nigh unkillable.

Case in point, solo for an hour in arbi survivals on a Nidus, now try again on a Saryn.

It's all due to the nature of Nidus's "passive." His passive is monstrously strong and unique compared to all other Warframes. It's like he was a prototype for a new version of passive, and they just never bothered implementing it for future or past Warframes. I think it's something that should be more widespread, variants of a "multi-mechanic" passive that are introduced across the board, actually.

[(PSN)OLLXK]

21 hours ago, sixmille said:

It's not just Saryn. There are two categories of warframes, the well designed ones like Excalibur, Nidus, Atlas or Harrow, strong but they have clear limits, and the others like Saryn, Volt, Equinox, Nova or Limbo, with theoretical limits that are never met because of their immense scaling or stopping power. A few warframes are in between like Mesa too. The second category is poorly designed not because they're too strong per se, but because they haven't been designed with 3 other players in mind. Team play is by far the most common scenario according to DE's data so it's the one that should be the priority.

When I started playing back in 2013 we didn't have that problem, warframes were support platforms for guns gameplay, and while some variety is welcome things have gone way too far in 2015-2016. DE is obviously stepping back and showing timid signs of learning from past mistakes but first they're still doing this very mistake occasionally like Saryn's infinite damage scaling, then there's old mess to clean up and stunlocking massive numbers of NPCs to the point that they are irrelevant should also be added to the pile, because it is also removing a core gameplay element from the game (danger is important!) at the detriment of other players. Hopefully one day someone at DE wakes up and removes infinite scaling and map-wide CC but since Saryn has been reworked in 2018 it shows that some people at DE take "thinking outside of the box" a bit too literally and completely miss the point and create monsters who obey to no rule, which is the core of the issue right here.

 

Ok i'm going to start off by saying i agreee that certain frames are not designed in a balanced way at all and that my opinion is skewed as i either play endurance (still harder than arbitrations by far).

I personally hate straight shooters, but i love the way movement abilities and weapons come together in this game as a coherent system so i don't particularly want all abilities to just be varying levels of gun supplementation because that sounds like a game i straight up would not play. saryns rework was in my opinion unwarranted  as she was actually a solid choice before it and i think she actually got slower at low level wiping with the changes not faster.

I'm of the opinion that scaling mechanics that do not harm play between level 50-120 (which is what i refer to as mid level play) are the way forward. Further I don't believe that de can make abilities built for damage functional at these levels without being overwhelming below them because of the exponential scaling that is the basis of warframes level progression on the enemy side.

Mag is a good example of a frame that scales very well while not disrupting mid level play. her kit allows her to deal large quantities of status and damage that increase with the enemies ability to survive them and she possess relevant cc to facilitate that damage along with minor ehp boosts to assist her team. she takes setup and her minimum kill time is a lot higher than a frame like mesa at mid level  . Mesa on the other hand scales incredibly poorly dealing fixed damage but deals it in chunks that are lethal to weak enemies very fast so as enemies so at higher levels she's useless but under 120 she is disruptive to people like you. mesa has less potential damage less cc and less team contribution than mag in scaling content but is far more disruptive in mid level play. 

Being able to massive amounts of damage or control large amounts of area isn't the issue. the issue is dealing more than the average enemies ehp before the enemy has any opportunity to meaningfully interact. the major issue that de are running into is that because the enemy ehp scales the way it does simple solutions that are easy to understand mathematically do not scale properly either going to fast or too slow in most cases where the scaling isn't in some way tied to the enemy. 

Scaling without disrupting mid level play as a damage frame needs to do 3 things: scale at a similar rate to the enemy, Deal meaningful damage for a significant amount of time, not become worthless at low level because the damage is entirely tied to the enemy like oberon's one did briefly. 

in order to meet all those criteria you would need a damage per tick formula like this: 

 (x*power strength)+(y*power stength*average enemy level*number of enemies spored[capped at 7])+z-(x*power strength) 

where x is the initial damage per tick. y is a constant for growth per tick. z is the damage dealt by the previous tick. which would let the devs set a lower value for y than we currently have while maintaining her ability to scale and not intruding as much at low levels and giving them a tool to actually decide more effectively how many ticks it should take to kill an enemy at level 120 and a way to calculate it mathematically. this would allow faster spool up on death in endurance and does still leave a theoretical cap below the damage cap of the skill because enemy hp will still scale faster the damage at high level so it becomes less effective in higher levels but ddrops of more gradually.

I do not think any scaling damage mechanic that doesn't take the enemy level into account can remain unobtrusive at lower levels because of how the enemy ehp systsem is designed but i do believe that it is possible to have the scaling mechanics that we have without totaling mid level play. anyone with full level gear will rofl stomp level 50 down content regardless of frame so i'm honestly ignoring it for the purposes of this post. 

so in the interests of players like me still having tools to do what we want and players like you not getting bored out your mind by map wipes i honestly think both sides need to ask de to take enemy level into acount in the damage formulas for enemy scaling either via a formula like the one above or other methods. 

[(XBOX)N7 Tigger]

 

On 2018-09-15 at 6:14 PM, Mattakadeimos said:

Like seriously if a Saryn player is in a mission type like defense, you may as well go afk. There's no fun in watching corpses explode and not doing any of the killing yourself. Its boring.

Its not just defense, any mission, oh look its Saryn. Might as well kiss any kills and just watch and wait till end of mission.

There is no other frame atm that can do such wholesale slaughter.

No, I'm not a Saryn main btw, she doesn't suit my playstyle. But you know dialling back her abilities to bring them in line with all the other frames would be nice.

Its either that or insta kick anyone playing as saryn from the games I'm in. No fun for anyone.

Come on DE sort it out.

 

I was in a Hydron yesterday with a Saryn. They got 36% of damage dealt. I got 33%. With my operator. I had just gilded my amp and needed to re-level it. Maybe Saryn isn't the problem here.

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by (XB1)N7 Tigger

[Foefaller]

As someone who has loved Saryn through thick and thin... I'd be okay with a nerf to spores.

I mean, I love being able to reach round 8 SO solo with 80%+ efficiency in my quest to farm Khora (just need the systems...) but in the right circumstances she becomes so broken that I don't bring her as often as I'd like because I'd worry too much about ruining the experience for other people.

9 hours ago, (XB1)N7 Tigger said:

 

 

I was in a Hydron yesterday with a Saryn. They got 36% of damage dealt. I got 33%. With my operator. I had just gilded my amp and needed to re-level it. Maybe Saryn isn't the problem here.

 

No, you just ran into a terrible Saryn. That or enemy density on consoles vs. PC drastically alters the dynamic. Or she was there for leveling other stuff, and not just grinding focus.

I mean, I was able to regularly match my entire team in damage/kills *before* infinite scaling spores was a thing, now when I bring her out I'm often doing double what they are.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Foefaller

[Spectre-8]

So how many FLOOFS do you guys have rn ?

[MechaKnight]

It's not a problem with Saryn as much as it is a problem with abilities and range. Playing Saryn without Overextended on her is really unimpressive--you really do need range mods on her to make her shine. The same can be said with Equinox and Volt nuke builds, so it is no surprise they also appear frequently in ESO. Equinox bounces charged Maims off herself in missions where multiple players use her the same way Nyx did before she was nerfed. We're just going to go on a nerf cycle frame after frame, as we usually do.

2 solutions, one fast and one proper.

The fast and cheap way is altering Overextended in a buff-balance from +90% range -60% strength to +50% range -20% strength. Player max range potential is limited while the mod gives proportionally better range for its strength negative.

The proper solution is giving all radial damage abilities line-of-sight like what was passed in Vivergate. People didn't want it back then because the syndicate grind was brutal as line-of-sight was being introduced, but the years have proven that DE would side with the players and reduce grind requirements when justified. We should accept that line-of-sight will help the game's lifespan and gameplay quality. Line-of-sight will limit such abilities from killing all enemies indiscriminately through walls to killing enemies who are within sight of the damage emitter within 5 seconds.

For direct damage radials like Discharge and Maim it would mean the frame has to be in visual range of the enemies it hits within 5 seconds. For Spores, it means an enemy that dies under the proper conditions needs to be within sight of another enemy. However, since Spores only spreads when killed by the Saryn player by some direct mode of damage besides the Spores themselves, it'll resolve Spore spread since if an enemy dies by Spores instead of Saryn's direct mode of attack in another form, the spores won't spread to any other enemy regardless of line-of-sight. Only enemy killed by the Saryn directly while also covered in spores will spread spores to enemies within vision of that enemy.

In short, line-of-sight is the proper way to balance damage radials. Digital Extremes has always been good to their players for mostly all concerns.

Edited November 13, 2018 by MechaKnight

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

-Internet hates me today. Also dup-

Edited November 15, 2018 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

-dup-

Edited November 15, 2018 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2018-11-11 at 1:52 PM, Pizzarugi said:

The last time players had incentive to keep pushing themselves was when we had void keys, and they weren't easy to farm for, making it more rewarding to run the one key you have for as long as you can to get the reward you desperately want. Believe me, I miss the days when I used to run survival for 2 hours or more just trying to get that old Loki Prime Chassis. Nowadays, I have no reason to stick around for anything past the 20 minute mark.

Hey Pepperidge farm. I was there when Warframe first came out on Ps4. Keys were very easy to come by when syndicates first came out. People would go to draco, ceres to farm rep, rank up instantly and stockpile keys. Or go into a survival for a few hours and collect them.... (You know the drill, Ev Trinity, Excal or two, spamming radiant javelin. Rep rains in.) 

Wasn't hard to get keys, people went into endless missions to get as many rewards as they could. 1 Survival for 60 minutes gave 12 rewards. This means more parts, more plat, or that drop you were looking for. Go figure people farmed them. Shocker, my endless trips into survival is why I think frames like Saryn are fine, and frames like Ember need a touch up. It gets easier and easier to last until the cows come home. 

[Cluosion]

Why is it a bad thing that a frame kills enemies quickly? Should they take out nova's 4 too?

[(PSN)The_OdysseySKN]

 

On 2018-09-15 at 1:14 PM, Mattakadeimos said:

 

There is no other frame atm that can do such wholesale slaughter.

 

Man I wish I could go back to being this new to WF and getting mad about high KPS frames and Arca Plasmor. Anyway, Equinox, Nova and Mesa say hi.

[Pizzarugi]

17 hours ago, moostar95 said:

Who cares about a dps frame doing their job.we should be telling de to stay consistent with having great warframe reworks like saryn. Any one blaming saryn for unfun coop play is your fault. When i do all of my missions. I go solo as inaros. When i go online, i go in as a support role like night form equinox. Knowing that 90% of the time they're always going to be people playing dps roles. Not all  Dps players can heal themselves but my night nox can! I think the best way to counter everyone's anger is to go into matches and keep in mind of what frame and role your doing. 

This isn't some class-based game, where you have to have a balanced team that fills all available roles. If you want to play a support role in multiplayer for whatever reason, that's on you, but don't expect people to suddenly stop playing their own favorite frames, because they might run into a press-4-to-win teammate. That's stupid, and an unrealistic expectation to make of others.

Just because a frame is DPS, it doesn't mean they should be capable of wiping out entire rooms with one push of a button while the rest of the team gets to sit on their thumbs until it's time to extract. This is especially true when they have absolutely no drawbacks to the ridiculous power they can put out. Nidus is a DPS frame, but he needs to build stacks to build power, and his 1 only goes in a straight line and only has his larva to group victims up. Garuda has an ungodly nuke more powerful than anything else in the game, but it comes at the cost of requiring a great deal of setting up combos and channeling which leaves you vulnerable to getting killed. Those are balances that make their nuke abilities acceptable, something neither Volt, Mesa, Saryn, nor Equinox (not to the same extent) possess. Just press 4 and not think about it.

[Pizzarugi]

6 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

Well, you know whats even dumber. Saryn getting nerfed because people like you dont like it. No one  isnt forcing you to play online with saryn or mesa players. You got options to play without them to your hearts content. DE is fine with saryn now. 

You talking about solo? Typical dismissive argument to ignore a criticism towards a clear problem with the game, which is one player wiping out entire rooms on their own. Again, that would be better for Saryn, Mesa, Volt and Equinox players, because they clearly don't need teammates. Why do they need anybody if they're able to do what a full team can with just a single press of a button?

I'll tell you why they don't play solo, it's the same reason non-press-4-to-win players don't: Spawns are terrible. Saryn just wants players to act as spawn-slaves to get more enemies to kill. To hell with what the teammates want, they can just sit in a corner for all they care.

[MechaKnight]

10 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You talking about solo? Typical dismissive argument to ignore a criticism towards a clear problem with the game, which is one player wiping out entire rooms on their own. Again, that would be better for Saryn, Mesa, Volt and Equinox players, because they clearly don't need teammates. Why do they need anybody if they're able to do what a full team can with just a single press of a button?

I'll tell you why they don't play solo, it's the same reason non-press-4-to-win players don't: Spawns are terrible. Saryn just wants players to act as spawn-slaves to get more enemies to kill. To hell with what the teammates want, they can just sit in a corner for all they care.

Your post reminds me of my large post back during U16 Excalibur mega-nuking via Radial Javelin. The problem is the same regardless of the frame, whether its is Excalibur and Mag on Viver or 4 Rhinos taking turns stomping. The majority of our radial abilities reach through walls to touch enemies who can't touch us, and overall the enemies found on solar system nodes are so weak just about anything would kill them.

That said, we should consider a reform. Digital Extremes has proven to us they work hard to please their playerbase and manage the level of grind when it becomes too excessive, so consider the following: if you want a quick fix you can ask for rebalanced Overextended stats, but if you want a permanent fix you ask for line-of-sight on abilities. Of the things people criticize Warframe for, it is how boring farming gameplay is. We just nuke everything, that's all we need. Sure the developers introduced enemies with tons of armor, ability nullification, extreme damage output, and ways to steal player energy, but in the end we'll figure out a way to nuke through walls to kill the majority of enemies, and deal with those rare special enemies with only a bit of effort. Line-of-sight is the kind of ability rework that would make Warframe play out more tactically.

[EinheriarJudith]

8 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

You talking about solo? Typical dismissive argument to ignore a criticism towards a clear problem with the game, which is one player wiping out entire rooms on their own. Again, that would be better for Saryn, Mesa, Volt and Equinox players, because they clearly don't need teammates. Why do they need anybody if they're able to do what a full team can with just a single press of a button?

I'll tell you why they don't play solo, it's the same reason non-press-4-to-win players don't: Spawns are terrible. Saryn just wants players to act as spawn-slaves to get more enemies to kill. To hell with what the teammates want, they can just sit in a corner for all they care.

truer words have never been spoken. you and @MechaKnight are spot on.

[(PSN)DARK_WIZARD999]

Holy crap these slugheaded droogs are gonna get Saryn range nerfed because they can't be arsed to play by themselves. What the hell is the point then, in a game where killing fast is the design? So you wanna nerf big guns like Attarax and Plasmor, Amprex too? "Too stwong, me feel weak, DE plees NERF! SLUURRRRP" Its not a hard enough game where you can't manage solo. Best I can offer them is controlled matchmaking, where you can exclude frames from a group as the host. Otherwise maybe your WuKong or Valkyr should just deal with the fact they aren't met for outkilling those other frames. Just like someone with a Fang Prime shouldn't expect to outkill a memearax. 

On top of that, who the heck wants every frame to end up being about the same damage, none better at specific talents? Then its all the same crap with a different color like Skyrim "Magic".

Edited November 18, 2018 by (PS4)DARK_WIZARD999

[EinheriarJudith]

12 hours ago, (PS4)DARK_WIZARD999 said:

Holy crap these slugheaded droogs are gonna get Saryn range nerfed because they can't be arsed to play by themselves. What the hell is the point then, in a game where killing fast is the design? So you wanna nerf big guns like Attarax and Plasmor, Amprex too? "Too stwong, me feel weak, DE plees NERF! SLUURRRRP" Its not a hard enough game where you can't manage solo. Best I can offer them is controlled matchmaking, where you can exclude frames from a group as the host. Otherwise maybe your WuKong or Valkyr should just deal with the fact they aren't met for outkilling those other frames. Just like someone with a Fang Prime shouldn't expect to outkill a memearax. 

On top of that, who the heck wants every frame to end up being about the same damage, none better at specific talents? Then its all the same crap with a different color like Skyrim "Magic".

excuse me but ive never seen arca plasmor kill a whole room or leave squad mates with nothing to do. when you have a coop game it needs to be balanced so that it promotes COOP play or else why have it. Nidus is strong and for the most part unkillable, but he cant kill a room, ash is strong yet cannot clear a room, mag is strong and cannot kill a room, valkyr, excaliber etc these are all strong frames but they do not do what mesa, equinox, volt, saryn do "while they are in a full squad" this isnt about nerfing power its about removing the ability to solo while in a full squad.

[IceColdHawk]

23 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

excuse me but ive never seen arca plasmor kill a whole room or leave squad mates with nothing to do.

I haven't seen a Saryn kill whole rooms with nothing for me to do either. Get most of the kills sure, but nothing where i could say i'm unable to participate. Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much when it can be proven that an Arca Plasmor can erase a whole line of enemies that would've required a lot more time with a weapon like say, Akvasto Prime. With the right setup, you can blink the whole room clear just as well with Amprex or Plasmor. And that without having to stack up or wait for DoTs.

Edited November 18, 2018 by IceColdHawk

[EinheriarJudith]

2 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

I haven't seen a Saryn kill whole rooms with nothing for me to do either. Get most of the kills sure, but nothing where i could say i'm unable to participate. Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much when it can be proven that an Arca Plasmor can erase a whole line of enemies that would've required a lot more time with a weapon like say, Akvasto Prime. With the right setup, you can blink the whole room clear just as well with Amprex or Plasmor. And that without having to stack up or wait for DoTs.

Line =/= room. ive been that saryn and have been in groups with that kind of saryn. move to enemies only to watch them melted down from being dead. can do it on literally every Defense map and any room in survival. just because you havent encountered it doesnt mean it hasnt happened.

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

Lol are people seriously still complaining about Sayrn even after the nerf?

[IceColdHawk]

6 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

just because you havent encountered it doesnt mean it hasnt happened.

I've never said that it didn't happen. But i do know WHY it happens. Because people enter with the wrong setup or are simply not trying to get any kills.

Here you can see an overview of a squad i had in normal onslaught:

Spoiler

Then you can see some results in the middle of onslaught, 9 minutes in:

Spoiler

And when only Saryn and me remained showing the end result:

Spoiler

Person rainbow avatar would be the typical "I get no kills" contender whereas Volt (despite being only MR10) still managed to get at least something out. I'm not expecting an MR10 with unfinished mod setups to keep up with MR20s let alone DPS frames but dayum, he was trying and that's why he could get some. Due to how Saryn works, she is usually one of the frames to get most of the kills due to the large spread radius. But that's all she can do. Spread infections and DoT enemies to death. It would be a shame if Saryns only leg would get taken away because of a few people not wanting to improve upon themself.