Bows are outclassed by Snipers

[(PSN)OLLXK]

This seems like a really weird conversation to me since the better weapons in both categories have ups and downs.

The  mutalist cernos gas cloud abillity to repeatedly proc bast corr and the raktas syndicate boom are district advantages over other primaries. the dread being the only slash weapon on either list and crit status viable means it does armour bypass better than any other weapon in either category. 

On the other side we have various flavors of ludicrous damage ouput from snipers with variation on hitscan vs projectile, combo counter, fire rate and reload.

all of them have punch through.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

Well, I certainly wouldn't mind improvements to bows, but I don't think they're grossly outclassed by anything except in very long range combat.

Dread and Rakta Cernos are my most used primary weapons in about 2,000 hours of gameplay, but I admit most bows don't easily compare in higher level content. But really that's true of a lot of weapons.

[SenorClipClop]

Bows only pale in comparison to snipers if you're trying to make a bow work exactly like a sniper. In their own realm, they're in a pretty good place. Different tools for different tasks.

[Kontrollo]

On 2018-09-18 at 2:39 AM, DatDarkOne said:

On 2018-09-17 at 4:45 PM, Kontrollo said:

Several of these statements are provably wrong or miss the point.

Which ones please?  

On 2018-09-16 at 11:12 PM, DatDarkOne said:

1) Fully charged shot gives full damage. Not much different than some other charge weapons/primaries.

2) That's not just a bow issue, but hitbox issue that effects all guns, etc.

3) This is wrong.  The damage is very consistent regardless of bow used.  There are two bows that get over 100% crit chance with just Point Strike.  

4) Also incorrect as i have no problems with pinpoint accuracy with bows without aiming and I use a controller when doing it.  

5) This one isn't a downside at all depending on certain factors.  Navigator, hehe.

6) This one doesn't make sense.  Punchthru is a straight line behind the target indicator.  Considering that I have and still use this very method to kill groups of enemies, I can't say that it has a parallax problem unless I'm missing your meaning. 

1 to 3 miss the point. I want more consistent damage with my shots. Yes, full charge gives full damage; also: water is wet. These are factual statements. Doesn't help me when my first shot is a non-crit single arrow and the next one has both multishot and crit. That's 8x the damage when hitting a head.

 

Point 4 are screenshots of hip-fired arrow groupings fired from the Simulacrum ramp ~22m away (excuse imgur for recompressing these):

Spoiler

Daikyu

 

Paris Prime

Over medium to long distances these make a difference, because I'm almost always trying to aim for headshots. Yes, aside from point blank shots you always want to aim with snipers. But this is why I don't consider hip firing bows as much of an advantage, all things considered.

 

Point 6: It isn't for projectiles. Unlike hitscan rounds these aren't fired from the camera, they're fired from the weapon:

Spoiler

As a consequence, unless you pay attention to how you position your Warframe, it's often the case that you can hit more enemies running towards you in a line with a hitscan weapon than with a bow. It gets more pronounced the closer the first enemy is. Try quickscoping with a sniper and you get better results than with a bow.

 

---

 

On 2018-09-18 at 2:24 PM, (PS4)OLLXK said:

This seems like a really weird conversation to me since the better weapons in both categories have ups and downs.

The  mutalist cernos gas cloud abillity to repeatedly proc bast corr and the raktas syndicate boom are district advantages over other primaries. the dread being the only slash weapon on either list and crit status viable means it does armour bypass better than any other weapon in either category. 

On the other side we have various flavors of ludicrous damage ouput from snipers with variation on hitscan vs projectile, combo counter, fire rate and reload.

all of them have punch through.

Well, Mutalist Cernos and Lenz aren't typical bows imho, so I don't really want to talk about those. Regarding Rakta Cernos: Vulkar has a syndicate mod, too. Other differences come down to the damage system. What I'd like to see is either more consistent damage or them getting some unique mechanic/mods (other than being silent). But that's just my opinion.

 

On 2018-09-18 at 5:48 PM, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Well, I certainly wouldn't mind improvements to bows, but I don't think they're grossly outclassed by anything except in very long range combat.

Dread and Rakta Cernos are my most used primary weapons in about 2,000 hours of gameplay, but I admit most bows don't easily compare in higher level content. But really that's true of a lot of weapons.

My point is that overall they're not only harder to use than snipers, they're also outclassed in damage output. I'm not saying they're unusable, however.

 

9 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Bows only pale in comparison to snipers if you're trying to make a bow work exactly like a sniper. In their own realm, they're in a pretty good place. Different tools for different tasks.

Well, I just don't really see any tasks that have me go: "Yes, it's a good thing I've brought a bow over a sniper for this." I mean, I like to use them, but more as a challenge to myself and to watch the ragdoll, but not strictly for how they perform.

 

---

 

Drawbacks I forgot to mention in my OP:

• Arrows have an arc (more pronounced after punching through something)
• Snipers have high recoil

 

---

 

By the way, here's another suggestion in another thread which sounds interesting:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1009634-bows-channeled-shot/

(Can't make it paste as an excerpt thingie? Well, thank you again forum software for being such a great sport.)

Edited September 20, 2018 by Kontrollo
gaah

[SenorClipClop]

16 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

I just don't really see any tasks that have me go: "Yes, it's a good thing I've brought a bow over a sniper for this." I mean, I like to use them, but more as a challenge to myself and to watch the ragdoll, but not strictly for how they perform.

The same thing can be said for most weapons in the game. Beyond the crit/status, high-rof/high per-shot damage and aoe/single-target distinctions, there's rarely a meaningful performance difference in your choice of weapon. This is most visible in melee weapons: you never need a specific kind of melee weapon, so why have different classes of them? Well, much of that rests in flavour, feel and personal preference. If I can do equally well for damage with a polearm or a greatwsword, the deciding factor is whether I want to swing around a greatsword or a polearm, and that's about it. A sniper works only slightly better than in places where a standard rifle or a good hitscan AR does, hek even a shotgun can out-sniper some snipers at pre-Sortie levels.

There is seldom going to be a time in this game where the mission suggests one specific class of weapon over another, since Warframe isn't that difficult and we have abilities to round out our loadouts. You're not going to see the question of "how can you beat this?", but rather, "How would you like to beat this?" So you'll play a sniper if you want, or a bow if you want, and in both scenarios you'll easily win because that's how this game is structured.

Edited September 20, 2018 by SenorClipClop

[DatDarkOne]

22 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

1 to 3 miss the point. I want more consistent damage with my shots. Yes, full charge gives full damage; also: water is wet. These are factual statements. Doesn't help me when my first shot is a non-crit single arrow and the next one has both multishot and crit. That's 8x the damage when hitting a head.

So basically you want a bow that doesn't charge, 100% crit chance, and to always get a headshot even on grineer with neck armor that blocks headshots from the back?   

I'm really not sure what to make of this.  So to keep from possibly being insulting unintentionally, I will respectfully decline to comment further on this.  

Edited September 20, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[Kontrollo]

3 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

The same thing can be said for most weapons in the game. Beyond the crit/status, high-rof/high per-shot damage and aoe/single-target distinctions, there's rarely a meaningful performance difference in your choice of weapon. This is most visible in melee weapons: you never need a specific kind of melee weapon, so why have different classes of them? Well, much of that rests in flavour, feel and personal preference. A sniper works only slightly better than in places where a standard rifle or a good hitscan AR does, hek even a shotgun can out-sniper some snipers at pre-Sortie levels. There is seldom going to be a time in this game where the mission suggests one specific class of weapon over another, since Warframe isn't that difficult and we have abilities to round out our loadouts. You're not going to see the question of "how can you beat this?", but rather, "How would you like to beat this?" So you'll play a sniper if you want, or a bow if you want, and in both scenarios you'll easily win because that's how this game is structured.

If your argument is that the game is easy enough already, then that's a lot of words for saying you don't actually disagree with me. 😄

[Kontrollo]

24 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

So basically you want a bow that doesn't charge, 100% crit chance, and to always get a headshot even on grineer with neck armor that blocks headshots from the back?   

I'm really not sure what to make of this.  So to keep from possibly being insulting unintentionally, I will respectfully decline to comment.  

That's cute.

Let's summarise: I've tried to make an argument for how snipers are objectively better than bows and possible ways to improve on this class of weapons. Your first response misses the point or is factually wrong. This one tries to put words in my mouth. Are you willing to have a discussion or are you just here for the trolling?

 

But good thing you mentioned the headshot thing, I forgot to address that one. I think it's the way it is not only because of balance reasons but also performance. If DE were to code an alternative way for how arrows hit enemies, then the latter shouldn't be a problem with the slow fire rate of bows, at least.

And well, we're talking about around a metre long steel bars punching through stuff here, I'm sure they hurt.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Kontrollo
clarification

[(PSN)OLLXK]

@Kontrollo I will admit to forgetting the vulkars syndicate mod. However the rakta is still the only viable primary with an energy producing syndicate boom which can be relevant as the boom can refill energy through channeling abilities.  

Advantages born of the damage system or metagame are still relevant advantages

[Ragingwasabi]

On 2018-09-17 at 8:00 AM, xXRampantXx said:

Except, they're not?  Bows (excluding the mk1 and generic Paris and the generic Cernos which are garbage) are consistently far more powerful than snipers, have much higher hip-fire accuracy than snipers and are (in my opinion at least) much more fun to use.  Snipers do descent damage if and only if you can get consecutive headshots, but still don't even come close to having the same output bows do, especially per shot.  Also given that Warframe is a game than leans more towards close-to-mid range combat than long range, the scope on snipers usually ends up more of a liability that a useful tool, making it more a con than a pro.

Bows are not outclassed by snipers.  If anything the opposite is true.

dude snipers do way more dmg

[xXRampantXx]

3 hours ago, Ragingwasabi said:

dude snipers do way more dmg

No, except for the Lanka, which I've already admitted might be better than a bow, they don't.  After the Lanka the highest damage sniper is the Vectis Prime, and three different bows have it beat, and that's putting aside the vastly superior critting capabilities (and often status chance) most bows have over snipers.

Edited September 20, 2018 by xXRampantXx

[Eirshy]

Lolwut. Guaranteed Crits. QED. Paris Prime and Dread are fine. Advanced Cernos (Mutalist, Rakta, and Prime) all have their niche.

The only bow that needs a bit of help is the Daikyu, and that's more because it's IPS Status and not focused on slash.

 

The only sniper that can remotely keep up with the bows is the Lanka, and that's because it can also bag guaranteed crits with just Point Strike. And it gets that by paying the "bow" price of charge time + projectile.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Eirshy

[Buttaface]

6 hours ago, Eirshy said:

The only sniper that can remotely keep up with the bows is the Lanka, and that's because it can also bag guaranteed crits with just Point Strike. And it gets that by paying the "bow" price of charge time + projectile.

Interesting, so what game forum do you think you are posting on? because the above is not the case as a matter of fact and not opinion in the game of Warframe.

[ReshyShira]

On 2018-09-16 at 2:50 PM, 000l000 said:

Bows are designed for mid/close range stealthy gameplay. Snipers aren't.

Thus comparing them is utterly pointless.

>Stealth

>Hoard Shooter

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

 

Sarcasm aside, Bows have a slower rate of fire than even sniper rifles and have more drawbacks for one minor upside (being usually silent). Closest comparison I'd say is the Opticor, but the Opticor has an explosive radius and instant travel time, bows don't.

[Ragingwasabi]

11 hours ago, xXRampantXx said:

No, except for the Lanka, which I've already admitted might be better than a bow, they don't.  After the Lanka the highest damage sniper is the Vectis Prime, and three different bows have it beat, and that's putting aside the vastly superior critting capabilities (and often status chance) most bows have over snipers.

did u take into consideration:
1) zoom bonus
2) hitscan bullets (ease of use, more shots hit, more dps)
3) faster fire rate
4) combo counter
with vigilante bonus, some snipers can get combo counter on the first shot, since combo counter is also affected by multishot.

theres no competition between bows and snipers. the meta eidolon hunting weapons r snipers after all.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Ragingwasabi

[Ragingwasabi]

2 hours ago, ReshyShira said:

>Stealth

>Hoard Shooter

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

 

Sarcasm aside, Bows have a slower rate of fire than even sniper rifles and have more drawbacks for one minor upside (being usually silent). Closest comparison I'd say is the Opticor, but the Opticor has an explosive radius and instant travel time, bows don't.

hey as noobs we all tried to stealth warframe for a while. and u know what it was pretty fun

[ReshyShira]

I mean if this were a game where you could do the objective without alerting literally everyone that'd be nice.  But I don't think Warfarme is set up to be a stealth game at all.  Stealth is really only there because it's "space ninjas".

[Eirshy]

22 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Interesting, so what game forum do you think you are posting on? because the above is not the case as a matter of fact and not opinion in the game of Warframe.

Except it is. There is only one sniper in the game that has guaranteed cold crits without a riven, and that is the Lanka using Point Strike. With all other snipers you must either run Point + Argon and pray to RNGesus on your first shot, or run Point + Riven.

The thing we're "keeping up" on is minimum damage. No, not target cycle time (acquisition time + TTK_avg), but pure TTK_max. Because with sniper weapon roles, there is no point in having all of that accuracy if, at the end of the day, whether I kill the target is more governed by RNG than my own skill. And without guaranteed crits, RNGesus is the one deciding the target's fate, not how steady my hand is, or how good my prediction.

Without >100% crit chance, it is up to luck as to whether I deal x2 per round on headshot, or x17.6 per round on headshot.

And this is without going into the shot combo (of which the Lanka has, by far, the best, due to a very slow decay). Nor is it going into damage types (of which the Lanka has, by far, the best, due to Electric being a component in Coro, Radi, and Mag, meaning it can go pure on all but Viral for 75% amps against heavy units (most importantly, including against both armor types)). And this is also without going into base damage values (of which, the Lanka's 525 is all but peerless).

 

So please. You tell me which game you're playing, because it's clearly not Warframe if you thought what I said was anything other than raw fact.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Eirshy

[Eirshy]

21 hours ago, ReshyShira said:

Sarcasm aside, Bows have a slower rate of fire than even sniper rifles and have more drawbacks for one minor upside (being usually silent). Closest comparison I'd say is the Opticor, but the Opticor has an explosive radius and instant travel time, bows don't.

Bows have a higher effective minimum damage.

Paris Prime gets guaranteed crits, meaning that 260 charged is actually a minimum 1144 charged (assuming PS+VS). On Headcrit it's thus 4576. Even the mighty Opticor, with its 1000 base damage and x2.5 cdam, is only a minimum 2000 effective base on headshot. Because it can't get guaranteed crits, and thus doesn't get the extra x2 or its own superior x5.5 crit multiplier (assuming PS+VS) on every hit.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Eirshy

[xXRampantXx]

21 hours ago, Ragingwasabi said:

did u take into consideration:
1) zoom bonus
2) hitscan bullets (ease of use, more shots hit, more dps)
3) faster fire rate
4) combo counter
with vigilante bonus, some snipers can get combo counter on the first shot, since combo counter is also affected by multishot.

theres no competition between bows and snipers. the meta eidolon hunting weapons r snipers after all.

Going to cover 1 and 4 together: yes I did.  Even including those bonuses I see no way that a sniper (again, besides Lanka) could have damage output anywhere near as consistently high as several bows have.

2 and 3 are, admittedly advantages that snipers have over bows, but they aren't nearly enough to balance the scales in favor of snipers.

The fact that this is even being discussed to the degree that it is proves that there is significant competition.  Snipers being the meta for one particular type of enemy doesn't mean much when they're practically worthless in almost every other situation.  On top of that, from what I've heard, the best sniper for Eidolons is, in fact, the Lanka, the one sniper I will admit (and have already admitted) the superiority of.

Edited September 21, 2018 by xXRampantXx

[Eirshy]

21 minutes ago, xXRampantXx said:

The fact that this is even being discussed to the degree that it is proves that there is significant competition.  Snipers being the meta for one particular type of enemy doesn't mean much when they're practically worthless in almost every other situation.  On top of that, from what I've heard, the best sniper for Eidolons is, in fact, the Lanka, the one sniper I will admit (and have already admitted) the superiority of.

Not even snipers in general. It's the Lanka. It basically takes a riven on any other sniper just to get into the same time zone as the Lanka in that fight- due to how superior Radiation damage is in that fight and the fact that no other sniper can do pure of it (or guarantee crits without a riven).

All the other snipers are merely capable of doing the job. The Lanka's the only one that really does it well.

 

... I still get annoyed at how often I out-DPS pug Chromas while on Trinity. I realize I have an optimized amp and a riven on my Lanka, but I typically don't use volt shields or Chroma's own buff due to having to line up shots while herding lures.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Eirshy

[Buttaface]

3 hours ago, Eirshy said:

So please. You tell me which game you're playing, because it's clearly not Warframe if you thought what I said was anything other than raw fact.

Argon Scope exists. Adarza exists. Harrow exists. And how many people use bows on the Eidolon with all their supposed "advantages?" Beside the point though, because even without 100% crit, snipers objectively outdamage bows wherever they are used in whatever mode of WF, and that's a problem. Your whole argument is that because bows have higher CC% that they inherently do higher damage, and that's a farce.

Silence is the only innate advantage of bows over snipers as a matter of fact. Tired of people posting nonsense and making things up just to be forum warriors and contrary.

Bows needs something else in WF not to be objectively inferior weapons.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Buttaface

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

And how many people use bows on the Eidolon with all their supposed "advantages?" 

And how many people use snipers (The Lanka specifically because that's what's used) outside of Eidolon hunts?  

You just gave an example that is maybe 5% of the whole game if that.  I gave one for the other 95%.  

Just trying to be fair with the comparisons.  

Edited September 22, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[(XBOX)Rhythm Grey]

On 2018-09-17 at 11:23 PM, 000l000 said:

Bows can deal with numerous opponents more easily than most snipers though. Innate punch through and cernos abilities (prime or even mutualist) are perfect for impaling crowds. As i said they're both different.

The only thing they should fix is bow low damage scaling at higher levels because of their quite low rate of fire. Killing high level exilus with a bow can be tedious as hell.

define "low damage scaling at higher levels"  

my dread with a crit and hunter munitions build can 1-3 shot a level 125 corrupt bombard.  eximus or not.   so anything in a normal mission isnt going to survive even one shot from the thing

[Buttaface]

14 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

And how many people use snipers (The Lanka specifically because that's what's used) outside of Eidolon hunts?  

No. The point was that if bows were as strong as snipers in damage that they would be commonly used on the Eidolon. They are not. You can't make that inconvenient fact go away by pivoting away from it as you do transparently above.

Whether snipers or bows are optimal weapons in WF general play is not the point nor the topic of this thread, the argument is whether bows are objectively weaker than snipers enough to warrant buffs, and they are as a matter of fact.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Buttaface