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Bows are outclassed by Snipers


Kontrollo
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6 hours ago, Buttaface said:

No. The point was that if bows were as strong as snipers in damage that they would be commonly used on the Eidolon. They are not. You can't make that inconvenient fact go away by pivoting away from it as you do transparently above.

Whether snipers or bows are optimal weapons in WF general play is not the point nor the topic of this thread, the argument is whether bows are objectively weaker than snipers enough to warrant buffs, and they are as a matter of fact.

You might have a case if there were more snipers than the Lanka that outperform the top four bows.  Only one sniper rifle can do that.  And it mostly only does it in that one specific area of Eidilons and PoE.  

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The issue is with the combo multiplier and the riven system stacking up on each other. You put a decent riven on a sniper rifle and then you will never want to go back to using a bow. Sniper rifles are hit scan (except lanka but a gas lanka is basically a sniper rifle and a Lenz rolled into one). Also with the -zoom modification on rivens it has made them a lot better on the star chart and not just on open maps. Bows need a combo counter also to bring them up to scratch.

Edited by MudShadow
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I'm actually surprised this has resulted in such an argument. The difference between the weapons is, to me, clear as day.

They fill a rather similar role of I guess a 'railgun'. Something that'll fire a single high damage shot with enough punch through to wipe out a line of enemies, and nothing else.

Snipers however (the majority of):

- Don't have to lead their target.

- Will have higher over time damage due to fire rate, combo multipliers and zoom bonuses.

- Have far superior accuracy over range.

- Don't interfere with stealth in the same way bows do.

- Can be used to shoot through cover/bodies accurately, something that bows cannot do if the cover/body is too close to you. I'm sure it's been explained in the thread earlier ofc, but due to how the line is drawn from the weapon to the reticle instead of just being hitscan, it can result in unfortunate trajectories. 

Bow's have so many downsides comparatively, that even if you could convince me that they deal more damage, I still wouldn't consider it ''worth'' because at the end of the day what does it really matter? Both weapons are going to kill fine in the majority of the games content, Snipers just do it easier.

Bow's are fun, Dread is apparently my most used Primary, but imo they need something that makes them stand out. I don't know why anyone would be against that.

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you read my mind dude, i was about to post this on feedback, i'm getting tired of modding my bows every once in a while, including riven mods, i'm done, damage is absolutely garbage, not just compared with snipers (which is the most obvious comparison here), considering how long it takes to charge an arrow, the bullet drop, the speed, everything, it takes way too long to justify such terrible damage

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I think bows should have some unique system other than sniper combo system. Actually, i think all weapon family should have their own unique weapon system. Rather than just DPS and ammo type.

On topic: Bow i think should have higher critical damage, while sniper can get higher critical chance.

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19 hours ago, MudShadow said:

The issue is with the combo multiplier and the riven system stacking up on each other. You put a decent riven on a sniper rifle and then you will never want to go back to using a bow. 

Funny that then i have decent rivens on the couple of snipers i like and i still use my couple of bows i like a heck of a lot more.

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What we need is primed mods for crit rifles, we are in 2018 and still nod have primed point strike/primed vital sense, while shotguns and melees already have more than elemental mods.

 

I'd like to see how bows will work with primed point strike and vital sense.

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On 2018-09-20 at 8:39 AM, (PS4)OLLXK said:

@Kontrollo I will admit to forgetting the vulkars syndicate mod. However the rakta is still the only viable primary with an energy producing syndicate boom which can be relevant as the boom can refill energy through channeling abilities.  

Advantages born of the damage system or metagame are still relevant advantages

Yeah alright, I might've been too fast to dismiss that. They do have their individual strengths, and an AoE with Viral and Energy is certainly very valuable.

Between the IPS damage system, combo bonus, draw and flight speed and other variables it's not that easy to make a direct comparison between the two classes. Especially also because some of them are meant to be on a higher level than others, which is reflected by the MR requirement. However, so far I haven't read anything that would really make me reconsider my OP.

 

On 2018-09-21 at 11:46 PM, Eirshy said:

Bows have a higher effective minimum damage.

Paris Prime gets guaranteed crits, meaning that 260 charged is actually a minimum 1144 charged (assuming PS+VS). On Headcrit it's thus 4576. Even the mighty Opticor, with its 1000 base damage and x2.5 cdam, is only a minimum 2000 effective base on headshot. Because it can't get guaranteed crits, and thus doesn't get the extra x2 or its own superior x5.5 crit multiplier (assuming PS+VS) on every hit.

I'd say this is an undervalued property, being able to reach +100% crit. chance, just with the standard Point Strike, and I would like to see it on other bows. Paris Prime is a decent weapon for its mastery rank, no questions. But I don't think it outperforms any of the snipers comparable to it. Sadly there's no MR 8 sniper for a direct comparison, the closest are Rubico (MR 6), Vulkar Wraith (MR 7), Lanka (MR 10).

Now try this: spawn 8 high level Corrupted Heavy Gunners or Corrupted Bombards, enable invulnerability or disable their AI. Equip Serration, Split Chamber, Point Strike, Vital Sense. Add two elemental mods for Viral/Corrosive/Radiation damage to get a better picture (both Vulkar Wraith and Rubico are Impact heavy while Paris Prime has Puncture, so a plain IPS comparison is skewed against armour). The goal is to have to reload several times with your sniper. See how long it takes to kill all of them, and especially note the combo counter at the end of it.

I don't see how you can claim only the Lanka can keep up with bows, where for me the opposite is quite clear. But anyway, I guess I'm going to mention Dread and Paris Prime's crit. chance in the OP, seeing as that is probably the most controversial thing here.

 

19 hours ago, LupoDWolf said:

A sugestion, make bows, after melee 3.0, use the currently channel with some tweaks, like fast charge when channeling

I've linked this before, there's a recently opened topic about that. Sounds like a fine idea to me, although I'm not quite sold yet on how to make channel work nicely with bows, seeing as you pretty much always want to fully charge your bow. I don't really want to press and hold an additional button here.

(managed to paste as an excerpt thingie this time! :clap:)

Having said all that, I'd rather talk about some more suggestions for improvements, e.g.:

  • Could add a low amount of permanent critical chance for every kill
    • Maybe only or even more on headshots
  • Add a chance to drop pickups when pinning enemies to walls (floors/ceilings?)
    • could be health or energy
    • or even some more exotic things like temporary damage or armour buff, (over-)shield replenish, affinity
  • Collect arrows from dead or even only pinned enemies and add them as multishot (chance) on your next draw, or even for a duration
  • Charge/reload time ramp up
    • alternatively, maybe a flat bonus when using parkour. We're ninjas, right?

 

 

 

  •  
Edited by Kontrollo
looks like the 'Page' button now really adds a page, I just wanted a separator though.. :(
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Having said all that, I'd rather talk about some more suggestions for improvements, e.g.:

  • Could add a low amount of permanent critical chance for every kill
    • Maybe only or even more on headshots
  • Add a chance to drop pickups when pinning enemies to walls (floors/ceilings?)
    • could be health or energy
    • or even some more exotic things like temporary damage or armour buff, (over-)shield replenish, affinity
  • Collect arrows from dead or even only pinned enemies and add them as multishot (chance) on your next draw, or even for a duration
  • Charge/reload time ramp up
    • alternatively, maybe a flat bonus when using parkour. We're ninjas, right?
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On 2018-09-21 at 5:41 PM, Buttaface said:

Argon Scope exists. Adarza exists. Harrow exists. And how many people use bows on the Eidolon with all their supposed "advantages?" Beside the point though, because even without 100% crit, snipers objectively outdamage bows wherever they are used in whatever mode of WF, and that's a problem. Your whole argument is that because bows have higher CC% that they inherently do higher damage, and that's a farce.

Silence is the only innate advantage of bows over snipers as a matter of fact. Tired of people posting nonsense and making things up just to be forum warriors and contrary.

Bows needs something else in WF not to be objectively inferior weapons.

Argon Scope requires a followup shot. Also cannot be farmed.
Adarza is limited duration and pure RNG for when it goes up.
Harrow's is limited duration, is "opposite" your iframes, and mandates you to play as Harrow.

You don't see bows in Eidolons because:
1) Lanka is capable of pure Radiation, and thus is completely
2) You're not getting the Headcrit bonus on kneecapping the Eidolon (removes a "free" x2)
3) Eidolons are, at their core, a TTKavg scenario rather than a TTKmin.
4) Most hear the Lanka is meta and think "Snipers" rather than think "Precision High-Output Radiation"
 

You're ignoring what I'm actually saying.

Bows don't have better TTKavg, they have better TTKmin. As in the level at which they, from cold (so no Argon, no combo, and regardless of timed buffs that are up), can provide a 100% chance of instakilling an enemy, is HIGHER for Bows than it is for any sniper other than the Lanka.

JFC am I tired of people responding to me without actually reading my post- I even spent an entire paragraph in the post you responded to explaining I was talking about minimum damage.

 

Edited by Eirshy
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4 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

I'd say this is an undervalued property, being able to reach +100% crit. chance, just with the standard Point Strike, and I would like to see it on other bows. Paris Prime is a decent weapon for its mastery rank, no questions. But I don't think it outperforms any of the snipers comparable to it. Sadly there's no MR 8 sniper for a direct comparison, the closest are Rubico (MR 6), Vulkar Wraith (MR 7), Lanka (MR 10).

Now try this: spawn 8 high level Corrupted Heavy Gunners or Corrupted Bombards, enable invulnerability or disable their AI. Equip Serration, Split Chamber, Point Strike, Vital Sense. Add two elemental mods for Viral/Corrosive/Radiation damage to get a better picture (both Vulkar Wraith and Rubico are Impact heavy while Paris Prime has Puncture, so a plain IPS comparison is skewed against armour). The goal is to have to reload several times with your sniper. See how long it takes to kill all of them, and especially note the combo counter at the end of it.

I don't see how you can claim only the Lanka can keep up with bows, where for me the opposite is quite clear. But anyway, I guess I'm going to mention Dread and Paris Prime's crit. chance in the OP, seeing as that is probably the most controversial thing here.

Because you're thinking in terms of DPS and/or what point you can never oneshot a target you're built for.

I'm talking in terms of guaranteed, cold OHKO- as in what point you can never not oneshot a target you're built for.

To demonstrate this: kit the Paris Prime with Serration PS VS and either Coro or Radi (depending on if you're testing vs HGunners or Bombards, respectively). Kit any non-Lanka Sniper with only Serration and Coro/Radi. Find the level at which that Paris Prime stops oneshotting, and then check out how poorly even a Vectis Prime does at that level when it doesn't crit. Don't put on Multishot, that's more RNG, and the entire point of this demonstration is to show your reliance on RNG to be effective with non-Lanka sniper rifles.

This is the problem I'm talking about- the reason I say the Lanka is the only one to keep up with the bows. All other current snipers, even the Vectis Prime, cannot attain a cold crit guarantee without a riven. As such, the above demonstration is the problem: if I'm going to dedicate my primary to a slow-cycle precision weapon, I want whatever I fired at to drop in one shot. As such, I'm going to pick the weapon that does headshot of x35.2 to x232.32 over one that does x4 to x52.8 (assuming PS/VS + SC+VA).

Hell I even have a Lanka riven, and I still am trying to get a good roll on my Argonak one- slow cycle precision weapons aren't often a good pick in Warframe.

 

ngl a "bow buff" would be more stealth content. Between making a failure entirely the fault of the user missing, and the free silenced, they'd get quite a surge in popularity. Alternatively, giving them all access to an Ivara-esque utility arrow would also be a good way to make them more popular. But every time I see people complaining about damage, I just have to sigh. Damage is the one thing they don't struggle with- they're just minimum damage based, not average or maximum.

Edited by Eirshy
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4 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Having said all that, I'd rather talk about some more suggestions for improvements, e.g.:

  • Collect arrows from dead or even only pinned enemies and add them as multishot (chance) on your next draw, or even for a duration
  • Charge/reload time ramp up
    • alternatively, maybe a flat bonus when using parkour. We're ninjas, right?

Even just getting them back as ammo would be cool, doubly if it even lets you recover them on miss.

On the latter, the bows we're using don't even look to be compound, yet they have enough draw strength to allow us to pierce armor heavy enough to soak bullets. The fact that we can even twang the damn things is a miracle lol. However, in spite of the absurdity, I could actually get behind a bonus to draw speed while aim gliding, entirely because flying snipes are awesome and should be encouraged.

 

Another option I've seen floated before is an Ivara-esque Specialized Arrow on alt-fire (as a toggle, so the Cernos Prime still works), complete with "quiver slot" and mods to pick which arrow yours fires. Thunderbolt could even be buffed and moved there, making every bow a Lenz-alike if you wanted.

Edited by Eirshy
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1 hour ago, Eirshy said:

Because you're thinking in terms of DPS and/or what point you can never oneshot a target you're built for.

I'm talking in terms of guaranteed, cold OHKO- as in what point you can never not oneshot a target you're built for.

To demonstrate this: kit the Paris Prime with Serration PS VS and either Coro or Radi (depending on if you're testing vs HGunners or Bombards, respectively). Kit any non-Lanka Sniper with only Serration and Coro/Radi. Find the level at which that Paris Prime stops oneshotting, and then check out how poorly even a Vectis Prime does at that level when it doesn't crit. Don't put on Multishot, that's more RNG, and the entire point of this demonstration is to show your reliance on RNG to be effective with non-Lanka sniper rifles.

This is the problem I'm talking about- the reason I say the Lanka is the only one to keep up with the bows. All other current snipers, even the Vectis Prime, cannot attain a cold crit guarantee without a riven. As such, the above demonstration is the problem: if I'm going to dedicate my primary to a slow-cycle precision weapon, I want whatever I fired at to drop in one shot. As such, I'm going to pick the weapon that does headshot of x35.2 to x232.32 over one that does x4 to x52.8 (assuming PS/VS + SC+VA).

Hell I even have a Lanka riven, and I still am trying to get a good roll on my Argonak one- slow cycle precision weapons aren't often a good pick in Warframe.

 

ngl a "bow buff" would be more stealth content. Between making a failure entirely the fault of the user missing, and the free silenced, they'd get quite a surge in popularity. Alternatively, giving them all access to an Ivara-esque utility arrow would also be a good way to make them more popular. But every time I see people complaining about damage, I just have to sigh. Damage is the one thing they don't struggle with- they're just minimum damage based, not average or maximum.

If you'd read my posts you'd know I'm fully aware of this, so there's no need for a lengthy explanation.

And it only applies to Paris Prime and Dread. That's why it was part of the list of suggestions in my OP from start: more consistent damage as a distinguishing property of the bow weapon class. Dread has only 200 damage fully charged (and isn't great against armour besides, Rivens excluded), so with your test setup that leaves the Paris Prime.

I mean I get your point, but it's mostly an artificial, theoretical argument. I'm not going to unequip Split Chamber on either weapon class, and you won't either outside of this little experiment.

Also it's moot after only a few seconds ingame, that's when the combo counter comes to bear, among other things. Vanilla Vectis and Rubico can even get their 2x bonus with the first shot with rather good odds (Multishot & Punch Through). Finally, you're simply going to miss a few of those headshots with a bow you'd consistently hit with a sniper. Or well, at least that's my experience.

Regarding Argonak & Lanka: Agreed, but bows fire more slowly than snipers, so I'm not quite following I guess?

 

Well anyway, I don't think you actually tried to do a side by side comparison in the Simulacrum as I've requested.

If your whole argument for, quote: "The only sniper that can remotely keep up with the bows is the Lanka" hinges on the Paris Prime's base crit. chance - i.e. guaranteed crits with PS alone - then that's wholly unsatisfying because it's one bow and it's simply too far removed from actual gameplay.

 

I don't think I've ever said in any of my posts here that I want a straight-up damage buff. There are more interesting approaches, and I've made a few suggestions. However, a simple stealth buff probably won't cut it, either. Even if we're assuming people don't want to sacrifice a mod slot on their sniper, there are two Warframes that can silence them without much trouble. Utility arrows would be much more interesting imo.

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@Kontrollo

Regarding the state of bows in general.... The Dread is accessible at MR 0 in spite of the MR 5 tag, iirc, and has always been more of a gambler weapon (as in red, slash, or bust). The Cernos is hot garbage, yes, but its Prime is basically a shotgun for abusing status, the mutalist variant is basically an alternate Torrid for abusing status, and the Rakta variant is for energy gen. The Paris is also hot garbage, the Paris Prime is indeed a proper damage weapon with no real gimmicks. The Daikyu needs something, for sure, and the Lenz only cosplays as an MR 8 bow (seriously HOW is the Lenz MR 8).

As for the dread only having 200 damage fully charged, no, it has 880 fully charged. Again, you're thinking in terms of base stats, with crit being separate. Weapons with 100% crit chance trivially reached either cold or during rapid fire cannot be considered to have their non-crit damage- they have their crit damage, always.

 

The Split Chamber unequip wasn't for real world usage, it was to emphasize the RNG. Split + Vigilante Armaments does wonders for low rof high RNG weapons, especially snipers. It takes your minimum headshot from x2 to x4, and also lets you always roll twice for crit. However, if you unequip Split Chamber (and weren't running VA), you're basically forcibly simulating a bad roll on multishot (10% chance on Split Chamber w/o VA). Same reason I said to ditch the crit mods for the demonstration- we're again forcibly simulating bad rolls on all things RNG to see how much we're riding on luck.

The combo counter isn't available during the first shot, and decays very rapidly on all snipers other than the Lanka. As much as what I'm demonstrating is absolute worst possible RNG performance, what you're demonstrating is behavior in a single encounter which must ramp up every time, and doesn't account for allies killing enemies before you causing less stacks or worse, lost stacks. It also doesn't amplify your damage by anywhere near as much as simply critting will until absurd combo counts that are all but impossible to get or maintain. It just also amplifies on crit.

And yes you will miss on occasion, and hitscan is "easier" than projectile (Lanka), which is "easier" than projectile with drop (bows). But the emphasis here is that if you miss, it was you that missed, not the RNG deciding your hit didn't count (you won't kill before you crit in the vast majority of situations where this matters). I can git gudder at landing hits (still have the >100% accuracy with the Lanka to show for it). I can't git gudder at rolling electronic dice.

 

I didn't do the request because your request firstly would require weapons I have already MR foddered. I could use the Vectis Prime for it, but then I'm additionally comparing an MR 14 to an MR 8... at least I think I still have my Paris Prime, might've ditched it when I realized the Lenz was a "bow"; note I've been a Lanka fanboi since back when it dealt Serrated Blade damage, so my go-to for single shot murder is and always will be the Lanka.

Secondly because I already know the outcome. The combo ramp will help to gloss over the sniper's faults, as well as the in-practice RNG won't be that terrible (especially in a controlled paused-AI simulacrum), and my major takeaway would be "geez these things need more forma" (iirc my PP was at 0-1, and my VP is at 1-3; compare my Lanka's 8). Followed shortly by "Why would I use either of these over the far-superior Lanka, or just something less unwieldy?".

And Thirdly because your post indicated, and now reply indicates, that you didn't fully grasp my point on damage reliability being a very, very key feature on why you'd want to use a bow instead of a sniper rifle.

 

On Damage buffs not being what you want.... Fair, I guess.

On silencing snipers, it's not really that big of a deal, they have reduced awareness already (something like 5m iirc). Honestly wish the info card would be updated to a distance rating instead of the >0m = alarming which it uses now. The big issues is whether the guy you just shot is alerted. If he's dead then he won't tell his friends, if he's not, then he probably will.

On utility arrows being a cool idea, ikr? Kinda hope at some point DE adopts it. Obviously Ivara would have the advantage of modding and not needing to bring a bow, but her entire 1 and Thunderbolt would be 5 choices right off the bat. Could even make the Mutalist Cernos's gas follower one too, and just have the MC's special being that it has that as a normal shot (letting you run something completely different in the quiver slot).

Edited by Eirshy
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I'm getting kind of bored here, so I'll be frank - well, relatively:

1 hour ago, Eirshy said:

As for the dread only having 200 damage fully charged, no, it has 880 fully charged. ...

The Split Chamber unequip wasn't for real world usage, it was to emphasize the RNG. ...

The combo counter isn't available during the first shot, and decays very rapidly on all snipers other than the Lanka. ...

... But the emphasis here is that if you miss, it was you that missed, not the RNG deciding your hit didn't count (you won't kill before you crit in the vast majority of situations where this matters). ...

I didn't do the request because your request firstly would require weapons I have already MR foddered. ...

... you didn't fully grasp my point on damage reliability being a very, very key feature ...

  • I've only been playing along with your line of thinking there; the reason I've mentioned Split Chamber explicitly and discarded Dread was because you're trying to make an argument for measuring performance with guaranteed min. damage alone. With that in mind:
    • You can't count on Split Chamber's multishot nor extra crit. chance > 100% but < 200%
    • Therefore Dread would be strictly inferior to Paris Prime: 200 base damage vs. 260 base damage (charged).
  • In some situations you can't "aim better" with projectile weapons. If you have to position yourself/wait/get close so you can dependably hit your enemy, then you have already "lost" against a hitscan weapon. Not sure why this is a point of contention.
  • Now I think I'm usually between around 10% and 40% headshot kills in real missions - even with snipers - depending on how much I care for landing those
    • If you apply that to your test setup, then suddenly even Paris Prime doesn't look as good, right?
    • But the real takeaway point here is that even with the more reliable Paris Prime (or Dread) there's always some sort of randomness involved
  • You're missing a crucial detail about how the combo system works
  • It's a pity you can't do a direct comparison with one of the two snipers that should be around the same power level
  • You dismiss how easy it is to ramp up the combo counter and how long it takes for it to go back down to 0
    • Anecdotal evidence: I did a 20min Survival on Mot where I was using mostly Vectis and ended it with a counter quite a bit over 120 (3.5x), which would be over 4 minutes to fully decay
  • You focus only on your min. damage argument and discard pretty much everything else.
    • I already said I think consistent damage is underrated, but I don't think that should be overriding every other stat. Why do you?
    • It doesn't actually matter all that much that I only have 75% crit. chance on a Rubico when I deal about 1.7x the damage of a Paris Prime on crit and can fire about 3x as fast (magazine) to around 1.5x as fast (overall). And that's with only 1.5x combo (which is the minimum you get when scoping) and the lower of two zoom levels. It's not just a minor improvement.

 

TL;DR: You're theorycrafting and focusing on a single aspect which makes one or two bows look good. That's simply not a sound way to make a comparison. In practice things play out differently.

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This confuses me too. Advanced alien race*, bows are still used when we have actual fire arms, tactical nukes and gattling guns, which is ironically outclassed by pointy rocks tied to sticks called zaws. The only way I can see a bow do better is if they gained double the damage from damage mods, like how fire rate is double for their charge rate. they simply dont have good damage except for cernos prime, which is a literal shotgun with decent damage up close. But cernos prime needs a third fire mode for concentrated arrow. Literally an augment ivara has to make a concentrated arrow!

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I think bows would be much better if they change how status procs work. At the moment you get a "compensation" with higher status chance per projectile but it´s not even close to the efficiency of weapons with high fire rate. Especially when it comes to important stuff like corrosive where you need to proc it several times very fast. That´s bad for other weapons like sniper rifles as well but I think it´s an overkill for bows.

Procs should be applied depending on the damage done (including critical damage). This way it would be more balanced between several weaker or one big hit. Of cause this means the way corrosion, viral, etc procs are working needs to be changed a little bit (for example higher % armor reduction). Something like slash wouldn´t need any adjustments though.

Status chance would be changed into status strenght which determines the proc effectivity for a specific weapon.

Edited by Arcira
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3 hours ago, Arcira said:

Procs should be applied depending on the damage done (including critical damage). This way it would be more balanced between several weaker or one big hit. Of cause this means the way corrosion, viral, etc procs are working needs to be changed a little bit (for example higher % armor reduction). Something like slash wouldn´t need any adjustments though.

Status chance would be changed into status strenght which determines the proc effectivity for a specific weapon.

This is an interesting suggestion.  Which is almost the opposite of how it is currently.  This isn't as noticeable on all status procs like it is for slash, toxin, and gas.   Only problem I see with this idea is that it could potentially make status chance mods useless as all builds would be geared toward crit chance.   Still an interesting idea overall.  :clem:

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19 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is an interesting suggestion.  Which is almost the opposite of how it is currently.  This isn't as noticeable on all status procs like it is for slash, toxin, and gas.   Only problem I see with this idea is that it could potentially make status chance mods useless as all builds would be geared toward crit chance.   Still an interesting idea overall.  :clem:

The idea is to change the status chance bonus from mods like Toxic Barrage into a status strenght buff. You would deal less toxin damage with the initial hits but much more poison damage over time. However I agree values from mods like Riffle Aptitude need to be adjusted to provide an alternative to crit builds.

Edited by Arcira
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@Kontrollo

- You can't count on Split Chamber, yes, but you can count on it plus Vigilante Armaments. This was why I mentioned a double-hit minimum with VA.

- The idea that you can't "aim better" flies in the face of absolutely all of my experience with the Lanka. But then, I've been around since u8 and used that gun almost exclusively from something like late u8 to u16 or so. There's a reason I still have my >100% accuracy score on it. Of course, I don't have to account for gravity, but I'd expect it to work the same just with a distance arc to mentally estimate.

- Missing a headshot isn't randomness, it's player skill- something to strive for. Without the headshot you're still looking at x4.4 over x1 as your minimum per-hit. Still a hell of a lot higher, just not as commanding as the (relative) x8.8 vs x1 on headshot per-hit.

- Actually I'm not missing any crucial fact about the combo system. I do exaggerate the decay a bit, but that's because, since the combo system's addition, I've only really used snipers on the plains, and even the Lanka's 6s combo timer is a bit quick if you're not on solo. And even with your anecdotal, that x3.5 combo is still under the x4.4 of the crit on a Dread/ParisP.

- I'm only focusing on the minimum because there's nothing else to focus on. It's a sniper weapon. Its job is to expeditiously one-shot things. If the minimum can't oneshot then the weapon cannot do its job. You're comparing the TTKavg of two weapons designed for TTKmax. If you just bring in an actual TTKavg weapon, you'll do better every time.

 

In essence, you're comparing a pair of horses on their ability to do differential calculus. I support adding a utility arrow slot specifically because it would be a saddle, not a chalkboard, and focus more on gimmicks. Additionally because it took us ages to finally get sniper buffs that made them relatively usable, and if we're gonna just clamor about buffing bows to be better than competitive with snipers, we're gonna have the exact same problem again where snipers need another round of buffs, and we're in this forever-powercreep state.

Edited by Eirshy
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@Eirshy Sorry, but what you're writing here is not convincing at all, and I really don't want to keep rehashing the same points over and over. But here's a friendly tip before moving on: go to the Rubico (Prime) or Vectis wiki pages and read carefully what they have to say about the combo counter; or better yet test yourself at what point the multiplier goes into effect.

 

And as I said, I'd rather talk about suggestions. Regarding quiver slots:

  • Could very well be an extra slot like Exilus, i.e. you get a mod slot limited to arrows, but you could also slot more arrows into your regular ones
  • Maybe even more than one slot, and maybe unlockable with tomatoes
  • Being silent could then very well be a mod, too, or maybe even the default state if you don't put anything into that extra slot (e.g. Thunderbolt would not be silent by itself, but you could make it)

Regarding arrows:

  • Already existing: Thunderbolt and Spring-Loaded Broadhead (the latter is Daikyu only atm)
    • Soaring Strike is Conclave only right now, could be made generally available
  • Corpse explosion could be fun, especially when pinning enemies
    • or maybe slow/freeze nearby enemies instead of simply doing damage
  • Ricochet, because why not
  • Corrosive cloud; would address the status/armour problem but might get a bit too close to what you can already do with Mutalist Cernos (maybe pinned only?)
  • Pull-in like Ferrox' alt fire, but would probably have to be limited to pinned enemies
  • Shrapnel after first punch-through (not like Astilla, but rather splitting up like a shotgun behind the first target)
    • cluster bombs instead of shrapnel; although I'd favour CC/status over extra damage with these I guess
  • Additional homing projectiles with lowish damage and a chance for I/P/S procs. Could very well be a short duration based buff, e.g. after landing a headshot
  • Noise arrow straight from Ivara: causes enemies to investigate but not get alarmed; I feel like this one could be made generally available
  • Flight speed, arrow drop; maybe as drawbacks
  • Extra elemental procs

Dual stat arrows could be a thing too, of course either with a drawback or with less powerful primary stats like we have already (Nightmare/Corrupted mods)

 

 

@Descent-of-Damocles Would love to see a single arrow third mode on the Cernos Prime, too.

 

@Arcira I agree with the idea, but not quite sure how that could be implemented. It might have to be dependent on the weapon class in the first place.

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2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Noise arrow straight from Ivara: causes enemies to investigate but not get alarmed; I feel like this one could be made generally available

To this one I say NO.  I'm just not a fan of taking a power from a frame and putting it on a weapon for general use.  

2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:
  • Flight speed, arrow drop; maybe as drawbacks
  • Extra elemental proc

These two are already things with bows.  The first one varies depending on the bow.  The second one is very easily achieved with the Daikyu.  This is mostly due to how multishot, status, and punchthru effect the arrows.  Most might not realize this, but the Daikyu can actually get 3 procs at once per shot per enemy hit.  

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On 2018-09-29 at 11:12 AM, DatDarkOne said:

To this one I say NO.  I'm just not a fan of taking a power from a frame and putting it on a weapon for general.

Just give her something else. You can't convince me that this arrow is practical lol. Hardly a power to a frame and more like a gimmick and I love Ivara as much as you do, hon.

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19 minutes ago, Xaxma said:

Just give her something else. You can't convince me that this arrow is practical lol. Hardly a power to a frame and more like a gimmick and I love Ivara as much as you do, hon.

Nope.  I don't have to convince you my dear Xax.  Just play more solo and you will see it's practicality very well.  😁  

Either way, I actually meant taking any frame powers and putting them on weapons for general use.  

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