Bows are outclassed by Snipers

[000l000]

Le 23/09/2018 à 01:34, DeMonkey a dit :

I'm actually surprised this has resulted in such an argument. The difference between the weapons is, to me, clear as day.

They fill a rather similar role of I guess a 'railgun'. Something that'll fire a single high damage shot with enough punch through to wipe out a line of enemies, and nothing else.

Snipers however (the majority of):

- Don't have to lead their target.

- Will have higher over time damage due to fire rate, combo multipliers and zoom bonuses.

- Have far superior accuracy over range.

- Don't interfere with stealth in the same way bows do.

- Can be used to shoot through cover/bodies accurately, something that bows cannot do if the cover/body is too close to you. I'm sure it's been explained in the thread earlier ofc, but due to how the line is drawn from the weapon to the reticle instead of just being hitscan, it can result in unfortunate trajectories. 

Bow's have so many downsides comparatively, that even if you could convince me that they deal more damage, I still wouldn't consider it ''worth'' because at the end of the day what does it really matter? Both weapons are going to kill fine in the majority of the games content, Snipers just do it easier.

Bow's are fun, Dread is apparently my most used Primary, but imo they need something that makes them stand out. I don't know why anyone would be against that.

Bows have no reload time and some are decent cleaners (Cernos prime, mutualist or Lenz). You won't clear a room with a Lanka. Bows are better at close range than snipers, you can charge a shot but not aim with a scope much (scopes are a huge part of sniper dps).

Different weapons for different situations. I don't get why people keep comparing anything for no reasons.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

Bows have no reload time and some are decent cleaners (Cernos prime, mutualist or Lenz). You won't clear a room with a Lanka. Bows are better at close range than snipers, you can charge a shot but not aim with a scope much (scopes are a huge part of sniper dps).

Different weapons for different situations. I don't get why people keep comparing anything for no reasons.

Bows have a reload time, it's just very short. They also have a charge up time.

Take the Dread for example. That has a reload of 0.7 seconds, and a charge of 0.5 seconds (unmodded ofc), you're effectively firing one shot every 1.2 seconds.

Now take the standard Rubico (yes, not even the Prime version). That has a fire rate of 2.76, a magazine of 5 and reload of 2.4 seconds. Over a sustained period of time you're firing one shot every 1.17 seconds (if my math is correct). That's actually faster than the Dread. Couple that with no travel time, faster aiming over range and less missed shots and the Sniper in this comparison objectively clears the room faster (given both weapons do a ton of damage and will one shot everything). 

Snipers do fine at close range, it's a matter of practice sure, but so is using a bow effectively at close range.

As for Cernos Prime/Mutalist Cernos/Lenz, look back at my original comment in this thread. Those traits that make them decent clearers, that unique part of them that stands out, that's exactly what I'm saying I'd like all bows to have, something that makes them stand out and be more than... whatever they are now.

Edited September 30, 2018 by DeMonkey

[000l000]

il y a 1 minute, DeMonkey a dit :

Bows have a reload time, it's just very short. They also have a charge up time.

Take the Dread for example. That has a reload of 0.7 seconds, and a charge of 0.5 seconds (unmodded ofc), you're effectively firing one shot every 1.2 seconds.

Now take the standard Rubico (yes, not even the Prime version). That has a fire rate of 2.76, a magazine of 5 and reload of 2.4 seconds. Over a sustained period of time you're firing one shot every 1.17 seconds (if my math is correct). That's actually less than the Dreads overall rate of fire. Couple that with no travel time, faster aiming over range and less missed shots and the Sniper in this comparison objectively clears the room faster (given both weapons do a ton of damage and will one shot everything). 

Snipers do fine at close range, it's a matter of practice sure, but so is using a bow effectively at close range.

As for Cernos Prime/Mutalist Cernos/Lenz, look back at my original comment in this thread. Those traits that make them decent clearers, that unique part of them that stands out, that's exactly what I'm saying I'd like all bows to have, something that makes them stand out and be more than... whatever they are now.

Every weapon is unique, you don't want me to speak about three bows because it only impairs your arguments. It's not really productive and quite dishonest.

Good luck clearing a room with a Lanka with its scope on.

Different weapons, different situations.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, 000l000 said:

Every weapon is unique, you don't want me to speak about three bows because it only impairs your arguments. It's not really productive and quite dishonest.

Oh for goodness sake...

7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

As for Cernos Prime/Mutalist Cernos/Lenz, look back at my original comment in this thread. Those traits that make them decent clearers, that unique part of them that stands out, that's exactly what I'm saying I'd like all bows to have, something that makes them stand out and be more than... whatever they are now.

^ Re-read that, please. It doesn't impair my argument at all, it reinforces it.

1 minute ago, 000l000 said:

Good luck clearing a room with a Lanka with its scope on.

Did I mention Lanka?

Look at my post, actually read it this time please. A standard bow (Dread) will not clear a room, objectively, as fast as a standard Sniper (Rubico). They each fire a high damage, high puncthrough shot at a slow rate, except that Snipers simply do it better, faster and with higher damage overall.

Yes yes, I get it, you like your Bow and you hate to see people saying it's not very good, I understand, Dread is my most used Primary. I'm simply giving you facts though.

[000l000]

il y a 13 minutes, DeMonkey a dit :

Oh for goodness sake...

^ Re-read that, please. It doesn't impair my argument at all, it reinforces it.

Did I mention Lanka?

Look at my post, actually read it this time please. A standard bow (Dread) will not clear a room, objectively, as fast as a standard Sniper (Rubico). They each fire a high damage, high puncthrough shot at a slow rate, except that Snipers simply do it better, faster and with higher damage overall.

Yes yes, I get it, you like your Bow and you hate to see people saying it's not very good, I understand, Dread is my most used Primary. I'm simply giving you facts though.

You can't mention Lanka cause it makes your arguments irrelevant. That's why you're only naming the Rubico and don't want me to name Cernos or Lenz.

In fact you don't want to argue and only call so-called facts cause you don't want to be wrong.

Sorry but that's a complete waste of time.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, 000l000 said:

You can't mention Lanka cause it makes your arguments irrelevant. That's why you're only naming the Rubico and don't want me to name Cernos or Lenz.

In fact you don't want to argue and only call so-called facts cause you don't want to be wrong.

I really really don't know what you're struggling with in my post.

I'm totally happy you named the Cernos and the Lenz, as I stated in my post that you just quoted, that reinforces my point. Those are what I want all Bows to be, that's literally what I argued for. You mentioning them is good. 

Would you like me to repeat it again, given I've had to say it like three times now?

Cernos Prime/Lenz/Mutalist Cernos are what all Bows should be, weapons that have unique traits beyond just being slow firing high damage weapons.

This is not a hard concept to understand.

4 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Sorry but that's a complete waste of time.

Believe me, I feel exactly the same way.

[Kontrollo]

On 2018-09-29 at 5:12 PM, DatDarkOne said:

These two are already things with bows.  The first one varies depending on the bow.  The second one is very easily achieved with the Daikyu.  This is mostly due to how multishot, status, and punchthru effect the arrows.  Most might not realize this, but the Daikyu can actually get 3 procs at once per shot per enemy hit.  

Daikyu just has an innate Impact proc (similar to how Vulkar has innate stagger). The idea in my suggestion was: on a proc, you get an additional elemental proc for free. The idea was that it would help bows with certain status builds, specifically Corrosive. Elemental only because Slash is a thing.

Flight speed and drop I mentioned because it could open up some possibilties to balancing out other effects.

 

On 2018-09-29 at 5:12 PM, DatDarkOne said:

this one I say NO.  I'm just not a fan of taking a power from a frame and putting it on a weapon for general use. 

Eh, I don't see why not; it's not the most useful of her arrows and it would help make bows better for stealth gameplay at least. I'm of the opinion that it's ok as long as an ability clearly outshines such an effect. And we're talking about 1/4th of a first ability here, and it's even the least interesting arrow.

But alright if that hits too close to home, then here's an alternative suggestion:

• Arrow which causes a ragdoll without any damage/procs and without causing alertness. That would be hilarious and not be a carbon copy of Ivara's arrow

 

And for good measure, here are some other suggestions for arrows borrowing from abilities:

• Mark up to five enemies and let the game handle the shooting (inspired by Ash ult). Needs a drawback of course, e.g.:
  • split and reduced total damage
  • alternatively could only cause a knockdown instead of dealing damage
• single arrow that on hit causes the target and enemies in a small radius to be suspended in time like after a rhino stomp (no damage)
• a blinding arrow, just make the blind effect short enough or make it unable to be spammed
• Rift arrow, I could imagine two variants:
  • an arrow that's both inside and outside the rift at the same time  (this could even make a Limbo teammate more acceptable to people)
  • an arrow that forces the target into the other plane (might be problematic)

 

Point being, there are a lot of interesting effects that could be used here, and with the right conditions attached to them they wouldn't really take away from a Warframe's abilities.

 

On another note: special arrows could also be drops; you slot a mod to decide what kind of arrow you want to use and then have a common ammo pool and pickups
for those, i.e. separate from bow/sniper ammo.

 

 

On 2018-09-30 at 10:45 PM, DeMonkey said:

... Over a sustained period of time you're firing one shot every 1.17 seconds (if my math is correct). That's actually faster than the Dread. ...

Think of it as 4 shots with firing delay and 1 shot with reload delay, then it starts again. Firing delay: 1 / 2.67 = 0.375s. Reload: 2.4s. Total: 4x 0.375 + 2.4 = 3.9s. That's five shots in 3.9s, so it's 3.9s / 5 =  0.78s per shot, sustained.

It's much faster than Dread.

 

 

On 2018-09-30 at 10:52 PM, 000l000 said:

Every weapon is unique, you don't want me to speak about three bows because it only impairs your arguments. It's not really productive and quite dishonest

Uh, I started the thread with the explicit intention of not looking at Lenz and Mutalist Cernos because they aren't really comparable, not even to other bows? Feels really weird that you then go and accuse him of dishonesty here. (I'm a bit torn on Cernos Prime, but the aforementioned two are definitely out.)

 

On 2018-09-30 at 10:29 PM, 000l000 said:

Bows are better at close range than snipers, you can charge a shot but not aim with a scope much (scopes are a huge part of sniper dps). 

I don't really have much of a problem up to 3x (e.g. Vectis) unless me and my target are moving at some speed. Vanilla Rubico's 3.5x min. zoom is where it starts to feel a bit cumbersome in places, but quickscoping is a thing, too.

I guess this is one really subjective point, so I'd be interested to hear other people's opinions on sniper scopes' zoom levels. It hasn't come up a lot here and I don't think it's really a problem. How much of a hindrance is it to you?

[DatDarkOne]

39 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

On another note: special arrows could also be drops; you slot a mod to decide what kind of arrow you want to use and then have a common ammo pool and pickups
for those, i.e. separate from bow/sniper ammo.

Interesting idea.  Could be quite fun.    😄

40 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

I guess this is one really subjective point, so I'd be interested to hear other people's opinions on sniper scopes' zoom levels. It hasn't come up a lot here and I don't think it's really a problem. How much of a hindrance is it to you?

I've never really had a problem with the scope.  That's actually one thing I really like about snipers.