Kontrollo

Bows are outclassed by Snipers

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I don't feel like writing an essay here, have some bullet points instead:

 

General disadvantages of bows:

  • Charge *and* reload for every shot
  • Travel time
  • Inconsistent damage without extremely rare mods, i.e. multishot, crit. chance can't easily reach +100%
    • Exceptions: Paris Prime and Dread can both easily reach more than +100% crit. chance with just Point Strike
  • Charge lost when rolling
  • Not pinpoint when not aiming. This makes sense in PvP, but I think we're past that point in PvE.
  • Parallax problems with punch through because projectiles
  • Only the Daikyu has a status chance high enough to make me want to consider an elemental status build (Viral), but it has other drawbacks. There are no elemental bows except the Mutalist Cernos, which feels more like the Torid, anyway.

 

Advantages of snipers:

  • Scope bonus
  • Combo system

 

Imho the only disadvantages of snipers are the reload times (inconvenient, but that's after a magazine of better output), the unscoped accuracy (even worse than bows), and not being silent (can still be modded if necessary). These are minor, all things considered.

 

 

Ways to improve bows, *aside* from adding raw damage:

  • Give full charge some minor bonus to crit. chance and/or multishot (no, I don't care if there's a "lore justification" or somesuch for that)
  • Make it possible to headshot enemies from all directions, not just the front, if the head is in the flight path
  • Increase headshot bonus
  • Add some more special mods like from the Index to make them more interesting, e.g. a 100% chance for an Electricity proc could be interesting. (But let's not talk about Thunderbolt)

 

Agree? Disagree? Did I miss something? Am I so far off this post has likely killed a few puppies and kittens? Let me know.

 

Edit: Yes, I didn't mention Lenz. For me, that thing falls into the "launcher" category. And like the Mutalist Cernos it can't be compared to snipers.

Edit 2: Mentioning crit. chance of Paris Prime and Dread

Edited by Kontrollo
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I'd rather they each had a unique mechanic. Snipers have the combo system, so give bows something else to define them.

Mutalist Cernos creates Gas Clouds already.

Cernos could be given additional multishot to reinforce that ''shotgun bow'' feeling.

Dread could split into multiple arrowheads on impact and richochet around a room with a soft lock on enemies.

Paris could be given homing arrows.

Etc and so forth.

I realise that they sound very augmenty, but honestly I don't think just slapping more damage or whatever on them is going to help much. They'll still remain less effective than snipers, and less effective than rifles overall.

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20 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:
  • Give full charge some minor bonus to crit. chance and/or multishot (no, I don't care if there's a "lore justification" or somesuch for that)

Fully charged shot gives full damage. Not much different than some other charge weapons/primaries.

20 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:
  • Make it possible to headshot enemies from all directions, not just the front, if the head is in the flight path

That's not just a bow issue, but hitbox issue that effects all guns, etc.

20 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:
  • Inconsistent damage without extremely rare mods, i.e. multishot, crit. chance can't easily reach +100%

This is wrong.  The damage is very consistent regardless of bow used.  There are two bows that get over 100% crit chance with just Point Strike.  

20 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Not pinpoint when not aiming.

Also incorrect as i have no problems with pinpoint accuracy with bows without aiming and I use a controller when doing it.  

20 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:
  • Travel time
  •  

This one isn't a downside at all depending on certain factors.  Navigator, hehe.

20 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:
  • Parallax problems with punch through because projectiles

This one doesn't make sense.  Punchthru is a straight line behind the target indicator.  Considering that I have and still use this very method to kill groups of enemies, I can't say that it has a parallax problem unless I'm missing your meaning.  

Having said that.  I like and use both bows and snipers.  I think it's really more personal preference in use than one being better than the other.  

Edited by DatDarkOne
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I feel like we had the exact opposite of this post before the sniper rework lol.

Maybe if they made thunderbolt innate (max charge) and scale? Have Bows be close-mid range AoE (fall off of damage/accuracy at range) and snipers be "single target" destruction (they have punchtrough so technically single line but you know what I mean x3)

Edited by Synpai
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1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

There are two bows that get over 100% crit chance with just Point Strike.

Three, even, if you count Lenz.

Really, that point baffles me the most, as it's Snipers where the problem of unreliable Crit is a bigger issue.

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Bows are designed for mid/close range stealthy gameplay. Snipers aren't.

Thus comparing them is utterly pointless.

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Except, they're not?  Bows (excluding the mk1 and generic Paris and the generic Cernos which are garbage) are consistently far more powerful than snipers, have much higher hip-fire accuracy than snipers and are (in my opinion at least) much more fun to use.  Snipers do descent damage if and only if you can get consecutive headshots, but still don't even come close to having the same output bows do, especially per shot.  Also given that Warframe is a game than leans more towards close-to-mid range combat than long range, the scope on snipers usually ends up more of a liability that a useful tool, making it more a con than a pro.

Bows are not outclassed by snipers.  If anything the opposite is true.

Edited by xXRampantXx
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43 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Having said that.  I like and use both bows and snipers.  I think it's really more personal preference in use than one being better than the other.  

Out of the stuff you erroneously called wrong in OP, the above is what's truly wrong. There's no reason other than aesthetics to use bows over snipers, none whatsoever. Snipers are objectively better than bows in WF. I've tried and tried to find -some- build in which they can compete. All I came up with is that it saves a mod slot on Ivara builds at the expense of lots of power, meh.

Simple fix, give every traditional charged bow a moderate to high chance of an instant fatality on mobs of any level other than bosses, eidolons. OR give bows a special type of finishing damage that ignores armor and shields.

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3 minutes ago, xXRampantXx said:

Except, they're not?  Bows (excluding the mk1 and generic Paris and the generic Cernos which are garbage) are consistently far more powerful than snipers, have much higher hip-fire accuracy than snipers and are (in my opinion at least) much more fun to use.  Snipers do descent damage if and only if you can get consecutive headshots, but still don't even come close to having the same output bows do, especially per shot.  Also given that Warframe is a game than leans more towards close-to-mid range combat than long range, the scope on snipers usually ends up more of a liability that a useful tool, making it more a con than a pro.

Bows are not outclassed by snipers.  If anything the opposite is true.

Bows are factually not "far more powerful than snipers." You just made that up and it's -not- the case. Hip fire accuracy is a red herring, who is hip firing with either? More fun to use? Your opinion and I agree, but that's -not- the thread topic. Rest is just some bizarre... are you sure you are on the right forum and not some other game's? Even on cramped maps like Hydron and Akkad, let alone almost -all- other maps, there is plenty of space to use a scope, and even on low magnification, snipers are better. Snipers are objectively and significantly superior to bows in WF. There's no reason to use a bow other than fun factor or style or on Ivara to save a mod slot. Neither is ideal for WF in most play, bullet hoses and aoe are, but doesn't change that if one is going to use a single shot weapon, there's little if any reason to ever use a bow over a sniper, and that shouldn't be the case.

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10 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Out of the stuff you erroneously called wrong in OP, the above is what's truly wrong. 

What I said previously wasn't wrong at all.  They are things that I myself have both done and proven in game.  Now while some of your post has some truth to it, it also contains a healthy dose of opinion.  Opinion isn't and never was fact.  

4 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Neither is ideal for WF in most play, bullet hoses and aoe are, but doesn't change that if one is going to use a single shot weapon, there's little if any reason to ever use a bow over a sniper, and that shouldn't be the case.

Going by this opinion, then there isn't any reason to use anything other than Ember, Tigris Prime, and Atterax.  There are playstyles and choices that fit everyone's taste.

I'm in full agreement with what the following Tenno said below:

30 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Bows are designed for mid/close range stealthy gameplay. Snipers aren't.

Thus comparing them is utterly pointless.

 

If you are not concerned with stealth or long range accuracy, then neither is the choice.  But since those things do concern some players, it's nice to have them as choices.  

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1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

Bows are factually not "far more powerful than snipers." You just made that up and it's -not- the case.

I can only go from my own experience, and in my experience I have never even once seen a sniper (except for the Lanka, which two of the downsides of bows) out DPS or DPH a well modded Dread or Paris Prime.  And that's putting aside the fact that those aren't even the strongest bows.

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

Hip fire accuracy is a red herring, who is hip firing with either?

Personally I hip-fire all the time, especially with bows (it is in fact, the primary way I use them), and I know at least two other people who do  Also, before the sniper reword which lowered sniper hip-fire accuracy, hip-firing was nearly the only way I used them.  So no, it is not a red herring. 

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

More fun to use? Your opinion

I admitted in my first post that the "fun" part was my own opinion, and that it may be different form others.

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

are you sure you are on the right forum and not some other game's?

Yes, I am sure.  I am not the moron you apparently imagine me to be.

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

Even on cramped maps like Hydron and Akkad, let alone almost -all- other maps, there is plenty of space to use a scope, and even on low magnification, snipers are better.

Again I can only speak from my own experience, but personally until Plains released I had never once used a sniper without wishing I could do so without the scope, and even on the plains I still often find myself wishing at least that the lowest zoom level was the same as the default for other weapons.  I also have heard the same complaints form literally every player I have asked (which, I will admit, is a very small number).

Edited by xXRampantXx
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I don't think it's fair to compare bows with different weapon types, but if we really had to, bows are pretty lacking in warframe. Don't get me wrong, they are viable, but there are much better choices. Bows sure could use some unique system for them.

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2 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Bows are designed for mid/close range stealthy gameplay. Snipers aren't.

Thus comparing them is utterly pointless.

This always makes me kind of sad though, because bows are actually not very good for stealth, aside from newbies with their Mk1-Paris oneshotting level 3 Grineer because they have no ranged stealth alternatives.

Everyone else would be better off with any other heavy hitter. If it's loud, that can be fixed with a silencer mod.

Last I checked, bows have a lot of problems that can't be fixed with mods.

First off, they're non-hitscan, so they can't fire around corners and have to shoot through the corner using their innate punch-through on charged shots. This doesn't work as well as you'd think though, because even when the punch-through is sufficient to get through the wall, the arrow will lose most of its velocity and drop right to the ground, and is likely to be deflected at unpredictable angles. (Plus: idk why, but oftentimes even 3m punch-through seems not to get the arrow through what seems to be a tiny sliver of a corner.)

Second, enemies can notice arrows in flight. It doesn't happen often, but when it does happen, they become alert and immediately look straight at you. If you're not fully concealed when this happens (such as because you had to step out of cover to shoot due to problem #1), every enemy in the room instantly knows your exact location even if the enemy who spotted you doesn't fire a shot or make any noise at all (because enemies are still telepathic).

Third, enemies can notice nearby arrow impacts, despite being completely oblivious to silenced bullets or fireballs burning as bright as the sun. This is somewhat better for you than noticing the arrow in flight, because they will spend a couple seconds looking at the arrow before they trace its path back to you. So your location is the second place they look, not the first.

And finally, enemies killed with bows turn into flying corpses that will sail across the room, usually (but not always) in a direction similar to the arrow's trajectory. This is a problem because these flying corpses will alert any enemies they pass by, sometimes at rather surprising ranges. Also, this is despite the fact that enemies currently cannot notice corpses normally (they notice nearby deaths; they do not notice the remains of the dead). But that's probably a bug.

Anyway, for a stealth weapon, bows sure do have a lot of traits making them counterproductive for stealth.

I mean, not that stealth is a supported feature in this game. It's there, but it's also terrible and hasn't been touched in years aside from occasional bug fixes and added mechanics making stealth even less viable.

 

EDIT: Meehhh, point number five: enemies tend to cluster, so you need rapid refire capability or AoE to take out tight groups without being spotted (assuming you're not invisible). Bows are charged weapons with travel time, and they need to be reloaded after every shot. So yeah. That's a problem, particularly since you're probably not going to be fully concealed when shooting with a non-hitscan weapon.

Edited by AgentSkye
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54 minutes ago, AgentSkye said:

Meehhh, point number five: enemies tend to cluster, so you need rapid refire capability or AoE to take out tight groups without being spotted (assuming you're not invisible). Bows are charged weapons with travel time, and they need to be reloaded after every shot. So yeah. That's a problem, particularly since you're probably not going to be fully concealed when shooting with a non-hitscan weapon.

Gas build Daikyu says Hi. 😁 

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17 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Three, even, if you count Lenz. 

Really, that point baffles me the most, as it's Snipers where the problem of unreliable Crit is a bigger issue. 

Lenz is "not really" a bow, see OP. But right, this is something I want to clear up. The first set of bullet points are a list of general disadvantages of bows, not just in comparison with snipers. And yes, snipers have this problem, too. So I totally get the confusion I caused with this one. However, seeing as the damage is just as unreliable it's not a redeeming quality that would speak in favour of bows over snipers. Yes, I'm aware of Dread, Lanka with 8x zoom and Paris Prime.

Also, the slower the fire rate of a weapon, and the more difficult it is to hit your target, the more consistent its damage has to be to make it worthwhile in comparison to other options. As a counter-example, the Soma has very inconsistent damage with its high critical multiplier, but its very high rate of fire balances that out against enemies that can take a few hits.

Snipers generally shoot faster than bows. But that's not the full story, they also "hit faster". When there's that one big threat in a room and a lot of cannon fodder, you will have to wait for your arrows to strike and make sure it's down before before you can move on to the next targets. This "shoot-hit feedback loop" is much lower with hitscan weapons.

 

17 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Fully charged shot gives full damage. Not much different than some other charge weapons/primaries.

That's not just a bow issue, but hitbox issue that effects all guns, etc.

This is wrong.  The damage is very consistent regardless of bow used.  There are two bows that get over 100% crit chance with just Point Strike.  

Also incorrect as i have no problems with pinpoint accuracy with bows without aiming and I use a controller when doing it.  

This one isn't a downside at all depending on certain factors.  Navigator, hehe.

This one doesn't make sense.  Punchthru is a straight line behind the target indicator.  Considering that I have and still use this very method to kill groups of enemies, I can't say that it has a parallax problem unless I'm missing your meaning.  

Having said that.  I like and use both bows and snipers.  I think it's really more personal preference in use than one being better than the other.  

Several of these statements are provably wrong or miss the point. The 3rd one should be addressed by what I wrote above, however.

By the way, I like and use both as well, but that has nothing to do with whether one class of weapons is objectively worse than the other.

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Well, I don't think that simply compare the second worst group and the worst group seems productive. Why we need to compare both of them, while both of them are bottom of the line and need for a love in the game that concentrates on the close-range combat and 1~4 player versus a ton of enemy? It's six of one and half a dozen of the other, really.

Can't we have the idea that making bows and SRs to be competitive with the other primary in the most games? Well, I don't think that it would be easy, but they surely need for some love.

 

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9 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Several of these statements are provably wrong or miss the point.

Which ones please?  

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Just now, ShiraHagane said:

We've come full circle boys.

I never thought I'd see the day when snipers were better than bows.

Don't worry.  I can almost bet money that someone will make a Nerf bows topic next week.  

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Le 17/09/2018 à 02:13, AgentSkye a dit :

This always makes me kind of sad though, because bows are actually not very good for stealth, aside from newbies with their Mk1-Paris oneshotting level 3 Grineer because they have no ranged stealth alternatives.

Everyone else would be better off with any other heavy hitter. If it's loud, that can be fixed with a silencer mod.

Last I checked, bows have a lot of problems that can't be fixed with mods.

First off, they're non-hitscan, so they can't fire around corners and have to shoot through the corner using their innate punch-through on charged shots. This doesn't work as well as you'd think though, because even when the punch-through is sufficient to get through the wall, the arrow will lose most of its velocity and drop right to the ground, and is likely to be deflected at unpredictable angles. (Plus: idk why, but oftentimes even 3m punch-through seems not to get the arrow through what seems to be a tiny sliver of a corner.)

Second, enemies can notice arrows in flight. It doesn't happen often, but when it does happen, they become alert and immediately look straight at you. If you're not fully concealed when this happens (such as because you had to step out of cover to shoot due to problem #1), every enemy in the room instantly knows your exact location even if the enemy who spotted you doesn't fire a shot or make any noise at all (because enemies are still telepathic).

Third, enemies can notice nearby arrow impacts, despite being completely oblivious to silenced bullets or fireballs burning as bright as the sun. This is somewhat better for you than noticing the arrow in flight, because they will spend a couple seconds looking at the arrow before they trace its path back to you. So your location is the second place they look, not the first.

And finally, enemies killed with bows turn into flying corpses that will sail across the room, usually (but not always) in a direction similar to the arrow's trajectory. This is a problem because these flying corpses will alert any enemies they pass by, sometimes at rather surprising ranges. Also, this is despite the fact that enemies currently cannot notice corpses normally (they notice nearby deaths; they do not notice the remains of the dead). But that's probably a bug.

Anyway, for a stealth weapon, bows sure do have a lot of traits making them counterproductive for stealth.

I mean, not that stealth is a supported feature in this game. It's there, but it's also terrible and hasn't been touched in years aside from occasional bug fixes and added mechanics making stealth even less viable.

 

EDIT: Meehhh, point number five: enemies tend to cluster, so you need rapid refire capability or AoE to take out tight groups without being spotted (assuming you're not invisible). Bows are charged weapons with travel time, and they need to be reloaded after every shot. So yeah. That's a problem, particularly since you're probably not going to be fully concealed when shooting with a non-hitscan weapon.

Bows can deal with numerous opponents more easily than most snipers though. Innate punch through and cernos abilities (prime or even mutualist) are perfect for impaling crowds. As i said they're both different.

The only thing they should fix is bow low damage scaling at higher levels because of their quite low rate of fire. Killing high level exilus with a bow can be tedious as hell.

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Just now, 000l000 said:

Bows can deal with numerous opponents more easily than most snipers though. Innate punch through and cernos abilities (prime or even mutualist) are perfect for impaling crowds. As i said they're both different.

The only thing they should fix is bow low damage scaling at higher levels because of their quite low rate of fire. Killing high level exilus with a bow can be tedious as hell.

Don't most (maybe even all, idk) snipers also have punch-through now?

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On 2018-09-17 at 8:03 AM, Buttaface said:

 There's no reason other than aesthetics to use bows over snipers, none whatsoever. Snipers are objectively better than bows in WF. I've tried and tried to find -some- build in which they can compete. All I came up with is that it saves a mod slot on Ivara builds at the expense of lots of power, meh.

 

There is no reason to use Any given weapon over another beyond how your playstyle goes ~ its all subjective even if you find that objectively snipers are better than bows it doesn't make them any less effective at what they do. I use a lot more Bows than Snipers (unless its a Sortie condition i generally only use them on Ivara when I'm not using a Bow on her) and I've never felt they were under-powered in general (there are of course some specific weapons that are lacking but the class a whole is good) I certainly can fire faster and more effectively with a Bow than any sniper rifle.

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maybe give bow a mechanic that if they aren't shot for a time, they add more arrows to the next  shot, up to a limit for a given bow

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5 hours ago, AgentSkye said:

Don't most (maybe even all, idk) snipers also have punch-through now?

Yes they do, but not to the same degree as bows.  

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