Negative Impact/Puncture Rivens

[DreisterDino]

Hey there,

 

i have a question considering Rivens with negative Puncture or Impact:

- many people want this stat on their Rivens

- i understand that in theory less impact/puncture makes the desired slash/elemental combos proc more often

 

So far so good, on a weapon that has a more or less balanced IPS like 15 Impact, 20 Slash, 20 Puncture i can understand that negative Impact Riven with good stats on top makes the weapon better overall. But here comes the thing, ive seen Rubico Rivens with -90% to -110% Impact that people are trying to sell for 10k or more calling them godly ofc (other stats are good). My problem here is that the Rubico has mostly Impact Dmg (Prime variant will have more or less the same distribution), so i really cant see that taking most of the base-damage away will make the weapon better even if better Statuseffects will proc more often.

I used the Warframebuilder website to "make some tests". I made a standard build there with an elementalcombo aswell (my guess was that the elementals will make up for it maybe), and as soon as i add a Riven with negative Impact like i mentioned all values for TotalDMG, Sustained DPS and Burst DPS go down like i expected (btw i raised the positive values on the testRiven for DMG and CC to over 200%, which i think arent even possible to get on a RubicoRiven even with a negative).

 

So, am i overlooking something here? When i ask the people trying to sell that stuff i never get a normal answer, you are the idiot that doesnt understand Warframe instantly and you either get ignored or flamed. I never got a satisfying answer to this. Or are those people that are buying/selling a neg-Impact Riven for a Rubico not paying attention and make a mistake thinking that less Impact/Puncture is always good on every weapon?

 

 

[Ninja]

As far as i know the negative IPS could be some worth on some weapon if it affects the main IPS of it.
For example a negative impact on Sobek, would have its own benefit if you build for a 100% status Corrosive build because it will proc more corrosive and less impact procs (because of the negative impact).

I'm not sure about the Sniper though 🤔

[DreisterDino]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Omni:

As far as i know the negative IPS could be some worth on some weapon if it affects the main IPS of it.
For example a negative impact on Sobek, would have its own benefit if you build for a 100% status Corrosive build because it will proc more corrosive and less impact procs (because of the negative impact).

I'm not sure about the Sniper though 🤔

On a Sobek (didnt play that one really) or Kohm a Corrosive/Slash build is great and getting rid of puncture/impact makes sense there. If i can strip armor faster and more reliable it will be way more effective for sure even if the raw dmg might become less. I am only talking about the Rubico in this thread because i have seen those Rivens recently and that made me wonder how it would make sense in that case. Because i would be surprised if someone builds a Sniper for stripping armor.

[Buttaface]

Most of the rivens people sell as "godly" are actually not, and a large portion of those are pure junk, shotgun mods with -flightspeed, or melee mods with -combo duration or range, etc. Those rivens are still "usable," sure, but they are not worth much compared to alternatives, and certainly not worth lots of plat compared to alternatives.

To the topic, -impact on a vectis, lanka or vulkar, for general use and not eidolons, would be a good negative because it either clears the way for better procs or is harmless. Not so much on the Rubico due to relatively low status chance. On low status weapons, the general rule is that IPS removal is undesirable. On the primary use of snipers, eidolons, -IPS is not a particularly good negative compared to -zoom, -recoil, -status duration, -status chance, etc., because all damage counts and there is no need to clear away a certain damage type for procs.

What is happening is people are confusing or purposefully conflating the extreme benefits of -IPS on certain weapons, certain status shotguns and melee weapons in particular, with other types of weapons and uses of them on non procable mobs. -IPS is most useful on high status weapons with a predominate IPS type that prevents other procs, and only useful on mobs that can be procced. Strun is a great example.

On a side note, have seen people claiming that -IPS negatives affect elemental damage negatively also. This is not the case. Elemental damage is calculated from the base weapon damage before the -IPS is removed from the damage packet. -IPS only affects the particular damage type in question and not the overall damage calculations.

Finally, rivens are vanity items generally, a fun diversion, not required to do any WF content, and not materially impactful on the game's overall damage. No riven in WF is worth hundreds of $$. WF simply isn't "that game" where incremental DPS increase is -required- to do any content. Players bring their minmax experience from other games with tiered gear to WF, and that's a mistake.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Buttaface

[Signs]

This is the main reason why -impact on the Rubico is a highly desired stat —

The Rubico has a low status chance and super good crit stats. Naturally building for HM and Viral. And that's the reason. Against high armor, most of your damage comes from Hunter Munitions, NOT shot damage, the shot damage is almost negligible. And the reason people go -impact is because they want more consistent viral procs. If you've used a rubico with viral you'd know that Viral doesn't proc often.

Vectis on the other hand also takes advantage of hunter munitions and viral. The reason people remove impact there is because impact procs are annoying.

[Eirshy]

The damage spread on impact is utter garbage. Even with most of your base IPS being it, losing it doesn't actually lose you that much damage in practice. Even more, the status effect staggers, which causes the target to move, which causes your followup to miss the headshot if you didn't adjust fast enough. Toss in the absurd increase to all other, far more useful status procs, and you get the idea.

 

EDIT: This is also why the Vulkar[W] should be slash based, as it better matches the Grineer's primary targets ("civilian", corpus, infested), and would actually make the thing not total garbage compared to Rubico[P], Vectis[P], Snidal, and Lanka.
"But Impact is good against shields!" Yes, and then you eat a 25% penalty against flesh, which is half of corpus, most "civilian", and all infested.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Eirshy

[DreisterDino]

Am 17.9.2018 um 15:39 schrieb Signs:

This is the main reason why -impact on the Rubico is a highly desired stat —

The Rubico has a low status chance and super good crit stats. Naturally building for HM and Viral. And that's the reason. Against high armor, most of your damage comes from Hunter Munitions, NOT shot damage, the shot damage is almost negligible. And the reason people go -impact is because they want more consistent viral procs. If you've used a rubico with viral you'd know that Viral doesn't proc often.

If thats the reason i still wonder why people want to use low-status (12% or 16% on prime) + singleshot weapons to proc status effects on enemies.

There are tons of weapons that do the job way better even without Rivens, so im gonna continue using them for that purpose.

 

Am 17.9.2018 um 15:28 schrieb Buttaface:

Most of the rivens people sell as "godly" are actually not, and a large portion of those are pure junk, shotgun mods with -flightspeed, or melee mods with -combo duration or range, etc. Those rivens are still "usable," sure, but they are not worth much compared to alternatives, and certainly not worth lots of plat compared to alternatives.

Yes i know i see this very often, it was also funny to see Akjagara Rivens with +CC+CD and a negative (sometimes even StatusChance) wanting to be sold als Godly for a crazy high price when it was hyped. Standard Akjagara has 5% CC, only DE knows how the CC on the prime will be but ill doubt they will completly change the weapon from a slash focussed status weapon to a high crit weapon. FYI, i wasnt planning on buying one of those Rubicos with -Impact, i was just curious to understand where it comes from.

[(PSN)LordBartimus]

Yeah, I understand the idea behind negative impact, but I don't agree with it. I had a Rubico riven a long time ago, it's original roll was +CD, +MS, -impact and even with those two good. Buffs, the weapon felt.. Lackluster. Rerolled it to +Dam, +CD, +Reload speed and it turned into an absolute powerhouse. This was without Hunter Munitions, BTW. I know everyone thinks that's a end all be all mod but for me it more often than not just takes up a slot. 

[(PSN)Valar_Morgoolis]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)LordBartimus said:

Yeah, I understand the idea behind negative impact, but I don't agree with it. I had a Rubico riven a long time ago, it's original roll was +CD, +MS, -impact and even with those two good. Buffs, the weapon felt.. Lackluster. Rerolled it to +Dam, +CD, +Reload speed and it turned into an absolute powerhouse. This was without Hunter Munitions, BTW. I know everyone thinks that's a end all be all mod but for me it more often than not just takes up a slot. 

Im pretty sure why it didnt perform was cuz you didnt put on hunter munitions. the whole point of having negative impact on rubico was to change its IPS spread. Hunter munitons was for it to affectivley proc slash more often since its status isnt that high. Keep in mind, Hunter munitions is totally useless for eidolons so if your talking bout hunts then your probably correct about having negative impact (not sure since i use lanka only on hunts) but for general use hunter munitions is a must for crit weapons.

[Peter]

Negative impact on snipers sucks, only works for scamming buyers on market.

Rubico for example, 85% of base dmg is Impact, use two elemental mods and you have =~30% of dmg of the weapon, if you put the bonus % of impact agains shield you can reach aprox 50% of total weapons damage, you can see the table here:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Impact_Damage

Hunter munition does not depend on the amount of procs, you can have 10 elements, if hunter procs you always get slash, and for sniper idk if you need viral since sniper has a lot of damage, my Rubico can hitkill Heavy Gunner without viral, just procking Hunter.

And on Teralyst you will loose damage as well, you don't need any proc here.

-Impact is a bait on snipers, the only one who is happy with this is the seller.

 

Also, we will have Fortuna, an entire corpus open world, and Impact is the king here.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Peter

[Birdframe_Prime]

There is a point that nobody has put in here just yet, but is actually rather relevant in some cases.

That being that sometimes the Negative on a Riven can allow the Positive stats to be higher than they would be normally.

So, specifically on a weapon with naturally low Impact stats, losing a high percentage of the Impact actually doesn't do anything much to the overall DPS, but it can change a 120% Crit chance into a 145% Crit chance on the positive.

There is also the argument that as long as the Supplemental stats, such as Status, Crit and Crit Multiplier are high enough, then your loss in base damage just isn't an issue. But that's a very, very niche point that really only functions well on naturally high crit weapons anyway.

Take the Baza as an example, the base stats of the weapon are kind of terrible, a total of 16 damage per shot. But, with a fire rate of 16.67, a reload time of only 1.4 second, 26% Crit Chance and a 3.0x Crit Multiplier, plus a lovely little mod called Hunter Munitions? This is an amazing little weapon, you don't even need a Riven to take it past Sortie level and beyond. (If you're not fussy about which frame you play, grab a Jet Stream Zephyr build, it actually extends the distance of Damage Falloff, making this better at longer ranges than normal too.)

But again, you need those supplementals. You can't be accepting a Riven with negative damage on base IPS if you don't get that trade-off.

True god-rolled Rivens for single-bullet rifles (read, anything that doesn't use built-in multi-shot like a shotgun does) contain that essential mix of the base fun things; Multishot, Crit Chance, Crit Damage, Status Chance, Base Damage and Elemental Damage. If you can get a Riven with decent stats of the Positives without a negative, then go for it, and don't listen to those traders that want you to settle for a hefty Negative just because they think it'll do better in their head.

I did accept (and now love) the Riven I rolled for my Rubico a few months back, with 152.4% Crit Chance, 93.3% Toxin, 97.6% Heat and then -33.8% Damage to Infested, because who take a Rubico against the Infested? I mean, really? Just don't, it's silly ^^ This one allows me a built-in elemental combo, and I can put all the supplemental Crit mods on that I like, or swap out one for a second Elemental which I can use to up that Status and give me a different combo, using Gas/Electric or Corrosive/Heat depending on which side of the Riven I put the elemental mod on.

But remember, don't let them push things like a negative IPS Riven on you if it's actually a Crit weapon; sure it might make the Slash procs appear more, but since Bleed is based off your actual IPS damage total, not your elemental damage, you shouldn't be taking hits to that without some seriously juicy supplementals to back it up.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

People think less Impact is usefull for Hunter Munition, but here's a friendly reminder: Slash procs deal 35% of the TOTAL damage, not the SLASH damage. Otherwise, the Lanka/Synapse/Amprex/etc. wouldn't be able to use it. If you remove 85% of the Rubico's IPS damage, HM isn't gonna be more powerfull. It's the opposite. 

Less IPS is only usefull on Status weapons with high RoF/Multi-shot and/or IPS Sortie missions, and still....

Le 17/09/2018 à 16:31, Eirshy a dit :

EDIT: This is also why the Vulkar[W] should be slash based, as it better matches the Grineer's primary targets ("civilian", corpus, infested), and would actually make the thing not total garbage compared to Rubico[P], Vectis[P], Snidal, and Lanka.
"But Impact is good against shields!" Yes, and then you eat a 25% penalty against flesh, which is half of corpus, most "civilian", and all infested.

Grineer IPS weapons (only looking at guns, but also applies to many melees) are mainly Impact based because their main enemies are Corpus, aka Shield users.. The Hind/Argonak/Drakgoon/Kohm/Miter/Kohmak are Slash based (yet the Argonak has decent Impact too), but the Grakata/Viper/Vulkar/Marelok/Kraken/Brakk/Buzlok/Gorgon/Karak/Grinlok/Sobek/Quartakk.

In short, - IPS on Snipers is garbage. You're gonna use HM anyway, and to get the most out of it you need optimal damage, including IP. 

 

The riven market is full of scammers who think/want you to think that their rivens are good when they're actualy "meh" at best. Never fully believe people selling stuff for huge amounts of plat. 

[DreisterDino]

Thx for the long explanations, seems that my feeling was right that it doesnt make alot of sense on that weapon.

 

[(PSN)Gerbizzzle]

Idk about most of you but personally, I wouldn’t use HM on any sniper... it would make sense to use it on a crit bullet spammer like soma/baza etc. but I don’t feel it would be as useful from a numbers standpoint on a sniper. 

 

Additionally, I think it would depend on what the riven was going to be used for, eidolon hunting or regular gameplay. Since eidolons can’t get a proc, lowing IPS (if you’re assuming it would be to force one or more different procs) wouldn’t be good. But if you’re using the weapon in normal gameplay, it’ll change up what stats you’d want. 

[Buttaface]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Gerbizzzle said:

Idk about most of you but personally, I wouldn’t use HM on any sniper... it would make sense to use it on a crit bullet spammer like soma/baza etc. but I don’t feel it would be as useful from a numbers standpoint on a sniper. 

It works well on snipers with rivens that have high MS on high level armor that can be proced, almost guaranteeing a gigantic slash proc on every shot. I agree that HM is generally not as useful as people say on regular mobs, and of course not at all on eidolons.

[(PSN)LordBartimus]

7 hours ago, (PS4)AZN_RH said:

Im pretty sure why it didnt perform was cuz you didnt put on hunter munitions. the whole point of having negative impact on rubico was to change its IPS spread. Hunter munitons was for it to affectivley proc slash more often since its status isnt that high. Keep in mind, Hunter munitions is totally useless for eidolons so if your talking bout hunts then your probably correct about having negative impact (not sure since i use lanka only on hunts) but for general use hunter munitions is a must for crit weapons.

See that's the thing - Hunters Munitions slash proc is based off total damage of a weapon, not just its slash. And the Hunters Munitions slash proc is independent of the IPS of the weapon. It's procced off an actual crit. So even in this instance, while I understand that Hunter Munitions is great in overall content, in this situation specifically, it doesn't really add up that way. 

[(PSN)LordBartimus]

7 hours ago, (PS4)AZN_RH said:

Im pretty sure why it didnt perform was cuz you didnt put on hunter munitions. the whole point of having negative impact on rubico was to change its IPS spread. Hunter munitons was for it to affectivley proc slash more often since its status isnt that high. Keep in mind, Hunter munitions is totally useless for eidolons so if your talking bout hunts then your probably correct about having negative impact (not sure since i use lanka only on hunts) but for general use hunter munitions is a must for crit weapons.

Also, I don't use Hunter Munitions on snipers 90% of the time anyways because I operate on the principal that if I can kill it in one shot, then bleed pros aren't needed. Lol But otherwjse on most crit rifles I agree. Sybaris series makes great use of HM. 

[Eirshy]

22 hours ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Grineer IPS weapons (only looking at guns, but also applies to many melees) are mainly Impact based because their main enemies are Corpus, aka Shield users.. The Hind/Argonak/Drakgoon/Kohm/Miter/Kohmak are Slash based (yet the Argonak has decent Impact too), but the Grakata/Viper/Vulkar/Marelok/Kraken/Brakk/Buzlok/Gorgon/Karak/Grinlok/Sobek/Quartakk.

Yes, I know that's the "reasoning" DE used, but the problem is it doesn't make sense since Corpus and Infested (though you can argue that the Vulkar is outdated and thus wasn't designed to deal with infested) both are easier to take down with slash due to the way slash procs work, the low levels of armor on Corpus units, and the fact that flesh soaks 25% impact.

I get having the full autos and such be impact, but your *sniper rifle* is not a place you put a volume-of-fire damage type like Impact. It's where you put either an anti-armor Piercing or an anti-flesh Slash. And the latter isn't absorbed better by shields.

 

But then again you're speaking to someone who thinks there's an utterly insane lack of Corrosive-based weapons on the Corpus side. They've got the tech to do it, and are the only faction with resistances to Corrosive (in proto shields only).

Edited September 20, 2018 by Eirshy

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 14 minutes, Eirshy a dit :

Yes, I know that's the "reasoning" DE used, but the problem is it doesn't make sense since Corpus and Infested (though you can argue that the Vulkar is outdated and thus wasn't designed to deal with infested) both are easier to take down with slash due to the way slash procs work, the low levels of armor on Corpus units, and the fact that flesh soaks 25% impact.

Still, reducing Impact damage on the Vulkar won't make Hunter Munition stronger. It always procs slash no matter what the damage type of the weapon is (either IPS or elemental) and Slash procs take in account the damage dealt by the shot, not just the slash damage of the weapon. Removing 85% of the Rubico's damage with a -100% Impact riven will only be detrimental to the Slash procs. 

il y a 18 minutes, Eirshy a dit :

But then again you're speaking to someone who thinks there's an utterly insane lack of Corrosive-based weapons on the Corpus side. They've got the tech to do it, and are the only faction with resistances to Corrosive (in proto shields only).

The Corpus have plenty of Puncture-based weapon (+25% against Armor), Radiation-based ones (+75% against Alloy armor) and Electric-based ones (+50% against Machinery, but -50% against Alloy armor), which makes them the Anti-Grineer faction. 

Grineers have mostly Impact and Slash weapons (effective against most Corpus and Infested units), with a couple Fire-based weapons. 

Both faction have Slash-based weapons (Hind, Flux Rifle, Argonak, Convectrix, etc.) and Explosive-based ones (Angstrum, Kulstar, Penta, Ogris, Lenz, Zarr, etc.) which are among the best anti-Infested damage types. 

Infested, on the other hand, have many Slash, Corrosive, Gas, Toxin, Viral-based weapons since their enemies are humanoïds. 

 

[Eirshy]

@Blade_Wolf_16

You're missing my point. From the Tenno perspective it doesn't really matter much, but from the Grineer perspective it would matter a ton. I'm arguing that from the Grineer's position, having the Vulkar be a slash-based sniper rifle would make a lot more sense than having it be an Impact based one. Then again, maybe they didn't care because Ballistas never hit anything anyways.

Same reason for why I find the lack of Corrosive weaponry on the Corpus to be really weird. Beyond it having a 75% amp against specific Grineer armor types (like Radiation), its status proc also lets it perform well against off-types. Toss in that it shreds through heavy infested like no tomorrow, and its worst matchup against non-corpus is neutral... Well, from a strategic perspective, kitting at least a heavy unit with Corrosive would just make sense.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Eirshy

[irvarva]

On 2018-09-17 at 9:39 AM, Signs said:

This is the main reason why -impact on the Rubico is a highly desired stat —

The Rubico has a low status chance and super good crit stats. Naturally building for HM and Viral. And that's the reason. Against high armor, most of your damage comes from Hunter Munitions, NOT shot damage, the shot damage is almost negligible. And the reason people go -impact is because they want more consistent viral procs. If you've used a rubico with viral you'd know that Viral doesn't proc often.

Vectis on the other hand also takes advantage of hunter munitions and viral. The reason people remove impact there is because impact procs are annoying.

if youre spending 10k on a rubico riven and the standard build isnt killing 120+ heavies faster than waiting for hunter munitions slash procs you REALLY overpaid lol. i can respect doing a goofy gas build with a -impact riven but hm viral is no bueno

[Blade_Wolf_16]

Il y a 2 heures, Eirshy a dit :

@Blade_Wolf_16

You're missing my point. From the Tenno perspective it doesn't really matter much, but from the Grineer perspective it would matter a ton. I'm arguing that from the Grineer's position, having the Vulkar be a slash-based sniper rifle would make a lot more sense than having it be an Impact based one. Then again, maybe they didn't care because Ballistas never hit anything anyways.

Same reason for why I find the lack of Corrosive weaponry on the Corpus to be really weird. Beyond it having a 75% amp against specific Grineer armor types (like Radiation), its status proc also lets it perform well against off-types. Toss in that it shreds through heavy infested like no tomorrow, and its worst matchup against non-corpus is neutral... Well, from a strategic perspective, kitting at least a heavy unit with Corrosive would just make sense.

You missing mine too. Corpus use energy weapons, while Grineers use Ballistic and chemical weapons. The Vulkar was made as a Corpus-killing weapon, just like any of their weapons that I stated were Impact base, which is the weakspot of Corpus (overall, raw Impact deal more overall damage than raw Slash to them). 

Corrosive is related to chemicals (and biochemical, aka Infested), not energy. In Warframe, Energy-based weapons deal Puncture, Electicity or Radiation most of the time. Grineer ballistic weapons can deal any IPS, but most of the time they deal Impact because their main enemy is the Corpus. Slash is for killing Infested (thematicaly), so changing a Sniper from Impact to Slash doesn't make much sense since a Sniper isn't suited for killing multiple enemies at close range (Infested). 

It's not because the damage type is effective against a faction that it has to be used by their rivals. Corpus are weak against Magnetic, yet Grineers don't use that type of damage. Infested don't use Ice nor Radiation, usefull against both Grineer and Corpus. It just doesn't ake much sense that a faction uses a damage type that doesn't fit it's theme. Like I said, Corpus use Energy, not Chemicals. Grineer do. Infested too. But not Corpus. 

[Eirshy]

@Blade_Wolf_16

On Impact dealing more overall than slash to Corpus... I actually missed that corpus robotic has a -25% vs slash. While that doesn't apply to the proc, Impact would at least get you neutral-to-advantage against an unknown corpus unit, while slash would be neutral-to-disadvantage.

On Corrosive.... I can admit I might be getting too hung up on how our modding system works; just because it's easy for us Tenno to make the Lanka a pure Corrosive weapon doesn't mean it'd be easy for the Corpus to accomplish such a thing. However, I would say you don't need chemicals to achieve a corrosive effect. A superheated plasma could work sufficiently "like" corrosive enough to allow emulation of the damage type. Viral or gas, yeah, I can't exactly bs those, but Corrosive is vague enough to still manage it. If anything the Lanka would make the most sense as a corrosive base in the Corpus's hands, both due to its weapon role and what it seems like it does. Whe'd just then have to have the Tenno version scaled back to electric for the usefulness of being able to switch between Coro/Radi/Mag depending on target.

[Signs]

3 hours ago, Soldier_Fortune said:

if youre spending 10k on a rubico riven and the standard build isnt killing 120+ heavies faster than waiting for hunter munitions slash procs you REALLY overpaid lol. i can respect doing a goofy gas build with a -impact riven but hm viral is no bueno

People who have money and want more consistent viral procs buy these. Because viral procs double your hunter munitions slash proc damage. And -impact makes viral proc so much more often. If you've tried a viral rubico you'd know how inconsistent the proc chance is.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Signs

[rapt0rman]

On 2018-09-19 at 10:35 AM, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

People think less Impact is usefull for Hunter Munition, but here's a friendly reminder: Slash procs deal 35% of the TOTAL damage, not the SLASH damage. Otherwise, the Lanka/Synapse/Amprex/etc. wouldn't be able to use it. If you remove 85% of the Rubico's IPS damage, HM isn't gonna be more powerfull. It's the opposite. 

Slash procs are based off your base damage which is unaffected by I/P/S changes (in the same way that modded elemental damage which is based off your base damage is unaffected by I/P/S changes). Decreasing impact/puncture or inversely increasing slash will only change your status probability, not slash proc damage.

Edited September 20, 2018 by rapt0rman