Ember

[(PSN)CaustixX]

I believe you already know what the community wants.Please buff her 

[Nacond]

I'm fine with her still after the rework. Don't have any problems with wof even with increased energy cost, I just built her with more range and less strength.

 

Ember is still a great low level killer so for me there is no reason to rework her. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Nacond

[Vance.Stubbs]

21 minutes ago, Nacond said:

 

Ember is still a great low level killer so for me there is no reason to rework her. 

That's exactly why her "rework" was terrible and why she needs another one.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Vance.Stubbs:

That's exactly why her "rework" was terrible and why she needs another one.

That was also the reason she was considered fine before so i kinda doubt that's the reason she would need another one.

Every bit of damage she does comes with Cc. Quite potent Cc and damage i dare say if played active so it's false to assume that she's only good for damaging low levels anyways. She's rather a frame that transits from low-mid level damaging to high level Cc. Add how well it plays out in melee range with melee animations and you have some awesome melee frame that has easy damage, buffs to the one strongest weapon type in the game and Cc in high levels...what's some fantastic base for a frame if you actually build for it and use it correctly.

 

So i gotta ask @(PS4)powderblue10s.. what is it the community wants exactly? Since only 2 things changed, the preferable choice of weapon (noone really used anyways) and that she can't afk anymore.

Does the community not want to play the game? 

Cause it's easier to just close the tab if that's it.

[Nacond]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Vance.Stubbs:

That's exactly why her "rework" was terrible and why she needs another one.

Like I said... For me she is fine. And I - as part of the community - don't need another rework. So I would prefer if you tell us what you want to change instead of generalizing because I don't think I'm the only one who is happy with Ember at the moment. 

 

About Ember - I only use her for low level content... But there are so many other frames to use that it's ok if some frames excell at certain mission types. Like (for me) Vauban in MD, Ivara in Spy and rescue, Nekros in Survival

[DroopingPuppy]

3 hours ago, (PS4)powderblue10s said:

I believe you already know what the community wants.Please buff her 

There are so many thread with same topic, but you need to add your own reason in order to at least discuss anything in here. Other than that it is no more than just a rant without a reason and you better post it on general discussion.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

That was also the reason she was considered fine before so i kinda doubt that's the reason she would need another one.

Every bit of damage she does comes with Cc. Quite potent Cc and damage i dare say if played active so it's false to assume that she's only good for damaging low levels anyways. She's rather a frame that transits from low-mid level damaging to high level Cc. Add how well it plays out in melee range with melee animations and you have some awesome melee frame that has easy damage, buffs to the one strongest weapon type in the game and Cc in high levels...what's some fantastic base for a frame if you actually build for it and use it correctly. 

 

So i gotta ask @(PS4)powderblue10s.. what is it the community wants exactly? Since only 2 things changed, the preferable choice of weapon (noone really used anyways) and that she can't afk anymore.

Does the community not want to play the game? 

Cause it's easier to just close the tab if that's it.

Not want to play Ember does not connected to not want to play the game, sir.

Edited September 19, 2018 by DroopingPuppy

[felixsylvaris]

Il y a 4 heures, (PS4)powderblue10s a dit :

I believe you already know what the community wants.Please buff her 

Community knows what they want? Doubt it. Some folks just want Call of Duty in Spaaace. Others just want to have top kills for some reason. There are a lot of expectacions.

I think the problem with Ember is that it is now hard to tell what she is good for. She has some CC (short duration) some damage buff (only fire, and need reapply for each mobs), some damage abillities but they fall off damage very soon, on top of that energy issues and a bit of squish.

It would be nice if Ember was great DPS frame (we dont have as many of them) with either weapon multiplier or small aoe abillities, community dislikes big aoe nukes (officially, but we all know the truth).

Quality of Life:

• Flash Accelerand does not change elements into complex
• Fireball firepatch has more player energy colour.

BIgger buffs:

• Fireball melts enemy armour, and could be charged 4x times
• Fireblast firering creates safe space protecting from bullets and projectiles
• WoF has only one mode, with big aoe, small damage, small cost, but affect up to 10 targets. And is also duration based (like 30sec);

Bold Buff:

• Fireball firepatches have sparks which Ember could collect to set herself on fire, but pays iron price for it.

That would be still be not op, and there could be better options like Octavia or Nidius, but ease of use will skyrocket.

You can still play Flash Accelerand efficiency build with fire weapon against infested. That setup is good enought.

Edited September 19, 2018 by felixsylvaris

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb DroopingPuppy:

Not want to play Ember does not connected to not want to play the game, sir.

Oh it does. She neather lost her abilities concept nor it's functionality with the change. Only the range and efficiency was changed to before where she was fine any plenty accepted.

Means you need to move and collect orbs to get the same results. That's the one thing that changed and the one reason for this whole frickin outcry.

That people are unable to not move playing her past the change.

The whole reasoning behind the communitys oppinion is nothing but people refusing to play the game. Noone even cared before.

[DroopingPuppy]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Oh it does. She neather lost her abilities concept nor it's functionality with the change. Only the range and efficiency was changed to before where she was fine any plenty accepted.

Means you need to move and collect orbs to get the same results. That's the one thing that changed and the one reason for this whole frickin outcry.

That people are unable to not move playing her past the change.

The whole reasoning behind the communitys oppinion is nothing but people refusing to play the game. Noone even cared before. 

She lost her ability, and her concept is only diminished and she doesn't function well, actually. Didn't I show the truth enough already?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb DroopingPuppy:

She lost her ability, and her concept is only diminished and she doesn't function well, actually.

Compared to before? Compared to other melee frames? Hardly.

Edited September 19, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Arcira]

5 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

That was also the reason she was considered fine before so i kinda doubt that's the reason she would need another one.

Every bit of damage she does comes with Cc. Quite potent Cc and damage i dare say if played active so it's false to assume that she's only good for damaging low levels anyways. She's rather a frame that transits from low-mid level damaging to high level Cc. Add how well it plays out in melee range with melee animations and you have some awesome melee frame that has easy damage, buffs to the one strongest weapon type in the game and Cc in high levels...what's some fantastic base for a frame if you actually build for it and use it correctly.

 

So i gotta ask @(PS4)powderblue10s.. what is it the community wants exactly? Since only 2 things changed, the preferable choice of weapon (noone really used anyways) and that she can't afk anymore.

Does the community not want to play the game? 

Cause it's easier to just close the tab if that's it.

If someone needs a cc warframe for whatever reason I can guarantee you it wont be Ember. There are far better cc alternatives. Beside knock down, panic procs are one of the worst cc effects and her stun is just mediocre nothing special. CC on every ability sounds cool and such but why does anyone need this? It´s not like there are cooldowns or something 1 good cc ability is more than enought.

However it doesn´t matter anyway because what you need currently is clear speed. And yes melee works well but as you mentioned that´s because melee is the strongest weapon type currently. You can make any warframe viable with a good melee build aside from something like eidolon hunt maybe.

Also I don´t see why you can´t afk anymore. You can have WoF active several minutes still so it was unnecessary but idc that much. Nonetheless aside from old defense and mobdef maybe I don´t see where you would benefit from beeing afk. In my opinion it´s a question about mission design and not the way Embers abilities work. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Arcira

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Arcira:

If someone needs a cc warframe for whatever reason I can guarantee you it wont be Ember. There are far better cc alternatives.

Better at what? Effective killing until Cc becomes even necessary? 

I am pretty sure there's quite a few threads in here because this isn't the case.

[Arcira]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Better at what? Effective killing until Cc becomes even necessary? 

I am pretty sure there's quite a few threads in here because this isn't the case.

Can´t remember seeing anyone asking for an Ember in endless mission farm days. So obviously she can´t be that good. Also between enemy levels where Embers damage is actually viable and the need of cc is a huge gap which has been increased even further because of weapon power creep. Most of the time it doesn´t even matter whether you use your abilities or not.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Arcira:

Can´t remember seeing anyone asking for an Ember in endless mission farm days. So obviously she can´t be that good. Also between enemy levels where Embers damage is actually viable and the need of cc is a huge gap which has been increased even further because of weapon power creep. Most of the time it doesn´t even matter whether you use your abilities or not.

Nah? I remember her beein part of the rooster next to saryn back in T4.

That's where her kit comes into play you know....let me tell you as a melee main that there's only a hand full of frames that work really well with melee.

There's a few criterias that make a really, really good melee frame...You need some solid defense or Cc that doesn't require much time or attention, something to make up for the range and something to lock the field down - if it's only or rather preferably long enough to heal up to actually be able to make those numbers when it's necessary. If it's Cc it needs to be the type that doesn't restrict status, better adds some. You also want a frame that doesn't essencially ward or overshield you, nothing that relies on fully locking down the field at all times since you're gonna need naramon to reach the full damage of a combo+CO build and rage/hunter or rng are the only alternative. Makes sense so far, no?

Ember on a appropiate build fits all those.

Could you name any other frame that does?

Edited September 19, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Arcira]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Nah? I remember her beein part of the rooster next to saryn back in T4.

That's where her kit comes into play you know....let me tell you as a melee main that there's only a hand full of frames that work really well with melee.

There's a few criterias that make a really, really good melee frame...You need some solid defense or Cc that doesn't require much time or attention, something to make up for the range and something to lock the field down - if it's only long enough to heal up to actually be able to make those numbers when it's necessary. If it's Cc it needs to be the type that doesn't restrict status, better adds some. You also want a frame that doesn't essencially ward or overshield you, nothing that relies on fully locking down the field since you're gonna need naramon to reach the full damage of a combo+CO build. Makes sense so far, no?

Ember on a appropiate build fits all those.

Could you name any other frame that does?

As far as I can remember popular was stuff like Vauban, Frost, Mesa, (pull)Mag, Loki, Nova and Mirage anything else was pretty much irrelevant. Especially stuff like old Saryn or Ember.

You can play litterally any frame with lifestrike or spin to win (crit) builds. CO on Ember is good but not essential just as most other things you have listed. Again additional things like defense abilities (which are overpowered on it´s own anyway) or cc or additional damage can be situational usefull but it´s not as important as the actual weapon build.

Other frames that are better in melee combat than Ember: Mirage, Valkyr, Excalibur, Loki, Inaros, Rhino, etc.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Arcira

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Arcira:

You can play litterally any frame with lifestrike or spin to win (crit) builds.

Melee has allready been ... fixed to require LoS... from the hitbox. Pass a railing and you won't hit anything but go ahead. Try it.

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Arcira:

Other frames that are better in melee combat than Ember: Mirage, Valkyr, Excalibur, Loki, Inaros, Rhino, etc.

Mirage conflicts with melee - her clones don't generate combo and don't calculate thrown weapons propperly.

Valkyr is nothing but a walking buff with no defense except for some armor.

Excal is only good with his EB and restricted to CO only - his slash dash doesn't calculate the damage propperly

Loki? Inaros? What do they offer but defense and like stealth multipliers once? And GL using iron skin under and roar under constant fire. How often can you recast it wo zenurik?

[Arcira]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Melee has allready been ... fixed to require LoS... from the hitbox. Pass a railing and you won't hit anything but go ahead. Try it

Not sure why you mention that or what it has to do with the discussion but ok you can´t cheese through obstacles anymore but melee is still as powerful. Nothing really changed in regular usage

21 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Mirage conflicts with melee - her clones don't generate combo and don't calculate thrown weapons propperly.

The fact that you don´t get yet another multiplier on top of a range and damage increase doesn´t mean it "conflicts".

21 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Valkyr is nothing but a walking buff with no defense except for some armor.

Valkyr can be litertally immortal and has high sustain with hysteria. Her cc (especially with paralysis augment and aoe ground finisher) and buffs are usefull as well.

For the other ones: the most important part are the defense capabilities because you have more than enought damage from the weapons itself. So naturally high defense/survivability warframes are very strong with melee combat.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Arcira

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Arcira:

Not sure why you mention that or what it has to do with the discussion but ok you can´t cheese through obstacles anymore but melee is still as powerful. Nothing really changed in regular usage

That was the sole reason this "spin to win" meta got big. Cause you could range trough obstacles.

Frames that didn't fit the list could hide somewhere and still do damage. With that gone you need actuall melee frames to melee.

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Arcira:

The fact that you don´t get yet another multiplier on top of a range and damage increase doesn´t mean it "conflicts".

Valkyr can be litertally immortal and has high sustain with hysteria. Her cc (especially with paralysis augment and aoe ground finisher) and buffs are usefull as well.

For the other ones: the most important part are the defense capabilities because you have more than enought damage from the weapons itself. So naturally high defense/survivability warframes are very strong with melee combat.

Every hit the clones do doesn't generate combo. That means that actually need to reach levels where the original hit comes trough to even build up combo. That conflicts as hell. And hysteria is easily the worst exalted in the game since it resets your combo if you're unable to hold it. The concept is great there and it has a lot of potential but the actuall execution is pure trash. The optional build, eternal war restricts you to nothing but melee and doesn't give you the opportunity to do anything else. Hard defense or Cc leaves you without energy.

That something can use melee doesn't mean it's good at it. Ember on the other side is just perfect for it in every way.

Edited September 19, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Arcira]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

That was the sole reason this "spin to win" meta got big. Cause you could range trough obstacles.

Frames that didn't fit the list could hide somewhere and still do damage. With that gone you need actuall melee frames to melee.

The reason spin to win is strong is because of the ridiculous dps increase from maiming strike or rivens it has nothing to do with hitting through walls.

10 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Every hit the clones do doesn't generate combo. That means that actually need to reach levels where the original hit comes trough to even build up combo. That conflicts as hell. And hysteria is easily the worst exalted in the game since it resets your combo if you're unable to hold it. The concept is great there and it has a lot of potential but the actuall execution is pure trash.

The fact your clones don´t provide a stacking bonus doesn´t mean you can´t stack it. Unless you are oneshoting everything it which case it would be meaningless anyway.

Also the build up speed is proportional. You get a good multiplier quite fast that´s not much of an issue. For example I don´t use a single combo timer mod and it works perfectly fine for me.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

That something can use melee doesn't mean it's good at it.

Exactly.

18 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Ember on the other side is just perfect for it in every way.

Ember lacks reliable defense/sustain scaling which is by far the most important stat for melee user. You can make it work with Life Strike or Healing Return though.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Arcira:

 

Ember lacks reliable defense/sustain scaling which is by far the most important stat for melee user. You can make it work with Life Strike or Healing Return though.

WoF is a perfect layer of defense for melee range. It lets just enough damage trough to benefit from Rage... the ammount of abilities used regulates how much exactly.

There's life strike too.

Doubt that she's lacking relyable defense. Or so my experience so far. A little example... been refining my Atlas recently. Addet some range and sacrificed some armor cause of his passive. I run him with a huras so i'm invisible most of the time anyways but his mortality rate is WAY higher then embers in my hands despise the arguably better Cc and stats cause his energy management is the same on a slower, less fluent kit. The damage is about the same (tho i really like punching things).

Edited September 19, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Calthous]

What really gets annoys me is that they made her a much closer ranged frame... but did not buff her armor.

Seriously, 125 is rather weak for getting as close as she does for the reworked WoF.

She really needs a good armor buff, or an actual defense power.

[Femuru]

ember will always be bad with blind dedicated fanboys and DE just hate her so i gave up even calling her a frame really

[Teridax68]

Ember's in a bad spot, but her decline has also been the product of her poor design. Simply buffing her would only amplify the issues that already exist with her: currently, she's relegated to auto-clearing low-level content, but if she receives pure buffs to her current pain points, notably World on Fire, she'd start auto-clearing increasingly higher-level content as a result. If the goal is purely to buff Ember, the only other alternative would be to avoid buffing those parts of her, which risk bending her out of shape, and creating an even less comfortable situation where she may output a lot of power, but still feel weak to many. Because of this, while I'd definitely support buffs to Ember, I think she needs a rework first

As it stands, the core problem with Ember is one shared with many older frames, including a few more recently worked ones: her design is far too indulgent, and skips right to giving the player power, while forgetting to add gameplay. Warframe as a game is one that tries to offer the player a power fantasy, and so maximizes the impact of our every move for every input we make. However, a proper power fantasy comes not just from impact, but also agency: we as players feel powerful not just because of what our in-game avatars do, but because of what we choose to do with them. Getting a headshot is a fantastic feeling, for example, not simply because we killed an opponent incredibly quickly, but because it's the product of perfect aim. It doesn't really matter that enemies are mostly the same height, whether there's any aim assist going on, etc., because what matters to us is that one of the actions we took brought us tremendous rewards. Our agency is rewarded with impact, and so our power fantasy is realized. This also happens with frame powers: blinding a group of enemies with Excalibur before finishing them off with Exalted Blade is tremendously rewarding, for example, because the player made the decision to use those powers in just the right sequence, aimed at a bunch of enemies, and killed them in a smooth combo. It's not particularly difficult to do, but it feels awesome.

Where the power fantasy breaks down is when that element of player agency is removed: if the power in question isn't a button one presses to do something cool at a specific moment, but rather a passive aura that kills everyone in a wide radius, for example, there is no real choice for the player to make. It is never not a good idea to activate this aura, and so even if the player is racking up kills, they're not really driving the action, so much as spectating while the game does all the work. With this, the amazing becomes mundane, and what should've been a very high moment becomes a chore. This is also the problem with Ember (and not just Ember): because of how broken the current Energy economy is, there is no real reason for her not to use World on Fire, a passive death aura, and when she's faced up against enemies with sufficiently low health, she turns missions into walking simulators. What could be an awesome power fantasy, i.e. burning everyone in sight, instead becomes boring, and makes the game more tedious even for her teammates, who find themselves unable to interact with enemies at those levels as well. Her nerfs did not solve this, and so this needs to change.

With this in mind, I think there are two possible directions one could take World on Fire:

1. Give World on Fire a cost that cannot be negated: the idea here would be to bring Ember back to her roots, and restore the ability to its original intended purpose, where it would be able to mass-murder enemies, but would only be able to be used occasionally, rather than all the time. This would fulfil the requirements of a player fantasy, as the ability would require actual decision-making, and thus require player agency. Increasing its Energy cost could get towards this somewhat, but would risk making her unplayable for lower-rank players. Additionally, doing so would still create problems where using her 4 means she has can't really use any other part of her kit, besides maybe her 2. Switching her to a different resource, e.g. some bespoke resource built up over time, or even her own health, could avoid this problem, while keeping her 4 under tight control. There would, however, still be the problem of her 1 and 3 serving no real purpose, as both achieve the same purpose as WoF, only to a weaker degree. Those could get reworked, but then again, it'd be a pretty big loss for the fire frame to not be able to cast fireballs.
2. Make World on Fire unable to kill enemies on its own: this would be a bigger departure, and may upset some players, but the idea here would be to make WoF an ability that enables kills, rather than one that single-handedly kills enemies on its own, while also being usable on-demand and having all of its gameplay resume itself to a toggle. Having the ability deal current health damage, for example, could have it scale much better, and serve a stronger purpose as a means of softening up enemies (more so even if the ability also stripped armor), but would still require player agency to actually get kills, thereby fulfilling the requirements of a proper player fantasy. The added benefit to this is that it could have the ability synergize much better with Ember's other abilities, as her 1 would have its own purpose as a damage source legitimately capable of killing enemies.

Going with either or both of these options would, I think, be enough to fix World on Fire, and Ember as a frame, even though her 3 might itself need a rework (it doesn't really do much on its own). By avoiding a situation where Ember just presses 4 to auto-murder everyone in range at all times, she could afford to be buffed significantly, even made to scale much better into higher levels.

[Ohmlink]

I recall Ember lost her defensive ability, Overheat, because she is supposed to be squishy. Around when corrupted mods were first introduced she could get 90 or 95 percent damage reduction. DE eventually decided that was not ok and gave us Accelerant.

Another frame that she could be compared to is Nova another squishy damage dealer. Except now we know that apparently Nova has always had at least low level DR with the potential for 95 percent damage reduction.

So why is Nova's DR ok but Ember's was not? They are both more less squishy damge dealers.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

14 minutes ago, Ohmlink said:

So why is Nova's DR ok but Ember's was not? They are both more less squishy damge dealers.

Especially considering Nova has better damage dealer potential than Ember.