Selling rivens can cause you to have negative plat

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, (PS4)iQuedas said:

It does, and the perp's main account too.

@OP 

I think you can ask support to revert the trade. Some screenshots would help.

They really have no way of finding the main account, because if they could these issues wouldnt end up the way they do. People would get their sold items back etc. Currently they only seem to track some platinum ID and whoever has it gets it removed without getting their items back and the fraudster alt account gets banned.

Atm I think they could handle the negative platinum issue a bit better. They could simply put the account in a negative platinum state that can either get balanced by buying plat or selling items. The whole suspending due to negative plat balance is silly because it is innocent people getting hit by it.

edit: Also the only real solution to this is having Steam only platinum sales so Valve handles charge backs. It would likely stop 99% of it.

Edited September 21, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[(XBOX)D00M INCARNATE]

Why isn't there more protection against this? Being banned for using an ingame function - trading in this case - is kind of wierd.

What's even wierder is the lack of support for when it does happen. Why does the victim need to come up with a screenshot of the trade? Why don't the people who maintain the game have access to trade records? Why can't the item be traced to whichever account the perp was planning on moving the item to?

And why is the victim expected to pay the difference? If someone has to pay the price, and the perp isn't catchable, then it needs to be the people who created that broken system in the first place.

I don't mind throwing money at the developers to support their continued development of warframe, but if I ever get online and find out I'm being forced to pay for platinum or be banned, you can bet I'm going to be looking into legal action rather than begging a dev to unban me.

Which then begs another question; why aren't other people taking the same route? We spend thousands of hours on this game, sometimes hundreds or more dollars on the game. You'd think people would be outraged and suing over such a loss. Not asking a company that can't even keep financial records to have mercy.

The only assumption I can make is that there's something in the ToS?

[VanosPrime]

Couldn't you make the system work like this?

- Player buys plat, trades plat and does a charge back. 

- The system takes plat from their account, if they don't have enough they get put in the negative and will have to buy plat to continue playing again.

I'm pretty sure others have thought of this as well and so far I can't find any issues with this idea.

There's really no reason to track plat. You just need to take plat from the players account that's doing the charge back. Any extra steps are meaningless in all honesty, unless I'm missing something.

 

[CoolDudeMcCool]

27 minutes ago, VanosPrime said:

Couldn't you make the system work like this?

- Player buys plat, trades plat and does a charge back. 

- The system takes plat from their account, if they don't have enough they get put in the negative and will have to buy plat to continue playing again.

I'm pretty sure others have thought of this as well and so far I can't find any issues with this idea.

There's really no reason to track plat. You just need to take plat from the players account that's doing the charge back. Any extra steps are meaningless in all honesty, unless I'm missing something.

 

Player 1 buys plat and trades it to Player 2.

Player 1 gets a charge back, since they don't have the plat, they go into negatives and get banned.

Player 2 keeps the plat and abandons his alt, that is, he owns both accounts and keeps the free plat while losing a free account.

[(XBOX)D00M INCARNATE]

1 hour ago, VanosPrime said:

Couldn't you make the system work like this?

- Player buys plat, trades plat and does a charge back. 

- The system takes plat from their account, if they don't have enough they get put in the negative and will have to buy plat to continue playing again.

I'm pretty sure others have thought of this as well and so far I can't find any issues with this idea.

There's really no reason to track plat. You just need to take plat from the players account that's doing the charge back. Any extra steps are meaningless in all honesty, unless I'm missing something.

 

This is the answer. Simple as can be.

43 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Player 1 buys plat and trades it to Player 2.

Player 1 gets a charge back, since they don't have the plat, they go into negatives and get banned.

Player 2 keeps the plat and abandons his alt, that is, he owns both accounts and keeps the free plat while losing a free account.

This, although still a problem, is still better than the innocent getting banned. Let DE take the fall for bad trade loops, not the players.

Furthermore, how about no charge backs allowed?? Let DE dispute with the credit card company and the perp can get caught up in fraud charges.

Edited September 21, 2018 by (XB1)D00M INCARNATE
Typo

[VanosPrime]

50 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Player 1 buys plat and trades it to Player 2.

Player 1 gets a charge back, since they don't have the plat, they go into negatives and get banned.

Player 2 keeps the plat and abandons his alt, that is, he owns both accounts and keeps the free plat while losing a free account.

Well then... I'm stumped then.

The only other thing I can think of is only allowing charge backs if the original plat that was purchased is still on the players account that bought it.

It would require them to add player ID to plat so they can track it.

[mikakor]

4 hours ago, Sannleikur said:

I read thru the suggested thread as well.

1:) I have to say that to ban the victims of this is extremely immoral.

2:) There are no real world comparisons that fit this, as fraud in real life almost always involves physical assets at some point which take time to recover, if they're able to recover them at all.

3:)The fix is fairly straight forward: total reversal on all trades with the fraudulent plat. A small program can be created to keep track of all of it and do it automatically, and simply send a message to those involved on what happened. This can be done in seconds after a chargeback occurs.

4:) The fact that this has been going on for over a month is frightening. All of the suggestions in that other post on how to protect yourself should only be temporary precautions. If they become commonplace they will devastate the game economy.

New players will be universally untrusted and will find it more and more difficult to buy stuff.

Since the scams are also being done by higher MR people too, less and less people will be willing to trade, period.

Having a plat buffer in your account long term is an absurd thing to expect people to have. This isn't real life where it's wise to have a buffer in your savings account for emergencies and for long term savings. This is a game, most people are unwilling to have buffers.

5:) Not fixing this problem ASAP can be extremely problematic. If this type of scam becomes more commonplace, DE is in very real danger of losing their entire business. As it is, a lot of the victims being banned have already spent money on the game and are now unwilling to spend anymore on it.  Many more people will simply stop buying plat. I know I'm certainly less willing to buy plat now, or even sell stuff. This can cause a cascading effect. The game may not exist in a year because of this.  Game economy crashes are difficult to recover from in general, and if the crash itself goes on for even a month or two, I'm not so sure DE has enough reserves or know how to recover from that. 

 

honestly, having this problem becoming common place is EXACTLY what we want, even if it hurts. if it becomes so big that everyones complain. like... really hard, and that there is more and more and more of that every day,. DE won't have the choice but to correct that and finally gives the victims protection, rather than being guilty ( of using their flawed trade system ) . and if they still don't... well... too bad... Karma will come get his debt.

[CriticalFumble]

3 hours ago, (XB1)D00M INCARNATE said:

Furthermore, how about no charge backs allowed?? Let DE dispute with the credit card company and the perp can get caught up in fraud charges.

They have to accept some chargebacks in order to be able to recieve the money from those companies.  Also, some chargebacks are reasonable; such as when a credit card is stolen, you can't reasonably saddle some random bystander with the bill for whatever spending spree a crook went on.  There's also the question of how much money DE would need to spend in order to keep the money from chargebacks - lawyers aren't cheap, and they might wind up losing money in the process of trying to avoid being defrauded.  

It would be nice if they allowed people who get caught in these messes to use the trading system to work their way out of debt, though, rather than just "brain shelving" them, though.  Warframe has an economy, and economies need a degree of trust to function; so if you can't trust plat, where does that leave us?  

[Hypernaut1]

3 hours ago, (XB1)D00M INCARNATE said:

This is the answer. Simple as can be.

This, although still a problem, is still better than the innocent getting banned. Let DE take the fall for bad trade loops, not the players.

Furthermore, how about no charge backs allowed?? Let DE dispute with the credit card company and the perp can get caught up in fraud charges.

Yeah, but then the scamming starts to spread like wildfire if DE just "takes the fall"

The only way to safely trade is to not trade for more than what you own. 

[(PSN)xtharbadx]

5 hours ago, (XB1)D00M INCARNATE said:

The only assumption I can make is that there's something in the ToS?

Haven't read the ToS, but I have on games in the past that follow a similar model, and usually they are very explicit in saying that your account isn't actually your property and its value is zero no matter how much money you put into it ( this of corse all explained in "legalese" ). That is done precisely to protect the company against any possible legal action.

[(PSN)SteveOMatic]

This situation sucks.  Sorry OP for being the latest victim.  Theres alway fraud in games like this, but the current "solution" doesnt seem like much of one.  

The only real solution is to make trading for items earned in game only.  Plat can be bought for market purchases which would not be tradeable.  

They would have to make more in game items tradeable, like standard frame bps, kuva, nitain, etc to make it more interesting.

[Firetempest]

All I can really think to do that slightly mitigate the problem, but not outright fix it is as that seems improbable.

Plat trade cap via junctions and mr. When you first unlock trade at Mr 2, you can trade twice a day to a Max of ~500 plat. Raise that amount by ~100 after every MR or Junction tell no limit is unlocked at MR ~18 or end of starchart.

An added stipulation is you cant even trade for rivens tell you actually unlock the war within. Or actually start MR locking them at 8 veilded onward.

I think something like this won't stop it, but would severely slow it down.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Firetempest

[(XBOX)D00M INCARNATE]

2 hours ago, (PS4)xtharbadx said:

your account isn't actually your property

Well no wonder it's so easy to file a chargeback against DE...if you payed money but never received anything, then of course you can file a chargeback. This is wack.

[Falconer777]

In my opinion, ensuring the safety of its customers should be a priority for the DE in such a situation. Even to the detriment of the development of the main content, if they do not have enough people and resources for everything at once. However, if there are not enough people, then they need to be hired.

[Talinthis]

12 hours ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Unfortunately support has no control of trades, this is specifically mentioned that no trades are enforced when entering trade chat. I wouldn't get hopes up unfortunately.

that is just simply unacceptable imo, they need to upgrade their system if you get banned from the game for negative plat for selling a riven to a fellow player. any old MMO like UO and EQ1 the game masters were all in that S#&$, they reverted trades if you scammed people, stole from people, tricked people, they temp banned you for griefing, kill stealing, and any other $&*^ move. nowadays most games just say they cant help you at all and you have to deal with it.

[Floppinger]

Imo DE need to figure something out. With Warframe gaining in popularity, this is only gonna get worse.

 

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

13 hours ago, OmegaZeroKool said:

[DE] recently when trying to login yesterday I was surprised with a "your account is ban due to negative plat balance' at first I thought this was just a error and checked my bank account since I just bought some plat last week and the forums say that the bank might of accidentally backed charged the plat and just required for the player to re purchase the plat. Not to be mean but your support team only know one thing and one thing only and that's send players a template saying to buy plat to get your account back. I have been playing for many hours and collected many rare mods that sell for a high price in the warframe trading market and seems the second things that could of happen was another player buying a riven (Lanka) and then cancelling their plat purchase screwing me over since I was the one that had the plat in the end after making the sale. I have gone online and noticed I am not the only player who has run into the scam act and became a victim that now ends up with a negative balance because another player decided to scam me and now im stuck with their tab. If your going to punish victims for others act maybe just take down the trading system from the game period. I am sure I am not the only person or the last person who will become a victim to others actions and will lead to loosing players because of this. Per your support team it seems I can never get a real person to reply to my messages and lead me to let go of my account because of this. Please fix this because this is a great game but this flaw will lead to many players question if trading is going to be safe especially when items that cost over 1k plat actually exist in this game.

So give me an explanation?

If you are selling rivens for 1000 plat each then after ten sales you are at ten thousand plat.

If a bad buyer does a charge back then at worst you end up with nine thousand plat.

I have seen stories like this too many times and it makes no sense as most traders already have everything from trades and are digital packrats with some cases of sixty to a hundred thousand plat.

And most riven traders the poor ones are in the 5000 to 10,000 brackets with more sucessfull traders in the 10,000 to 30,000 platinum brackets and of course the rich with brackets of 60,000 to over a hundred thousand platinum.

So your story makes no sense from my traders perspective.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

4 hours ago, CriticalFumble said:

They have to accept some chargebacks in order to be able to recieve the money from those companies.  Also, some chargebacks are reasonable; such as when a credit card is stolen, you can't reasonably saddle some random bystander with the bill for whatever spending spree a crook went on.  There's also the question of how much money DE would need to spend in order to keep the money from chargebacks - lawyers aren't cheap, and they might wind up losing money in the process of trying to avoid being defrauded.  

It would be nice if they allowed people who get caught in these messes to use the trading system to work their way out of debt, though, rather than just "brain shelving" them, though.  Warframe has an economy, and economies need a degree of trust to function; so if you can't trust plat, where does that leave us?  

please.

the op story makes no sense.

its like me saying a thousand dollar chargeback wipes out my one hundred thousand dollar account?

Hayylll noooo lol.

[IggySnow]

this has been a problem for a really long time... Im honestly surprised DE hasn't put mesures in place to revert all of the trades made with fraudulent plat. So many people get screwed out of valuable items because they traded an item away for fraudulent plat.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

3 minutes ago, HerpDerpy said:

this has been a problem for a really long time... Im honestly surprised DE hasn't put mesures in place to revert all of the trades made with fraudulent plat. So many people get screwed out of valuable items because they traded an item away for fraudulent plat.

and thats on the clueless traders who do 1 sortie get a valuable riven and want 2000p and take no safe measures.

if i have a vaulable riven i tell the prospective buyer to go get a r3 of a valuable arcane and trade item for item then i sell the arcane singles.

or i trade a valuable riven for some maxxed primed mods then i sell the mods one at a time.

The lesson here is if its over 400p then i get paid in items and no trades with anyone less than mr18 as they are doubtfull to have real plat and in most cases a mr4 with 2000p is telling me this in a very loud voice:

FAAAAKE PLAAT FAAAKE! 

[WhiteMarker]

12 hours ago, KubrowTamer said:

The fix is simple. Just leave the plat alone and ban the person who did the chargeback until the repay for the plat. This way DE still gets their money and the victims dont loose their plat or account

That's fixing nothing.
You can make a new account. Buy plat and trade it to your main, or to a friend.
Then you do a charge back. The new account gets banned, but the plat remains on your or on your friends account.
If DE did it like this, no one would ever pay for plat again. DE would go bankrupt and Warframe would close.
Great idea you had there. Let's implement it.

[texrei]

So why they can't reverse the trade? Poor guy has no plat, no discount and no Lanka riven, it hurts me badly - how unfair the situation is for him

[DuhItzLink]

After looking at the problem,  i think the currrent system works as follows: you buy 100 plat. that plat is coded to your bank account. when you trade it, its still coded to your bank account. and when you take back the plat, its coded to your bank account, so its deducted from the victim.

i think a fix is to consider the traded plat the receiver's, and when a player takes back a purchase, it'll deduct plat from their account. 

For example. I have 100 plat, and i buy 100 plat. i use 175 plat on a riven, then take back my purchase. Since I have 25 plat left from the purchase, it'll deduct the 100 i bought, so I'll have -75, and DE will know this guy is scamming. Now it'll ban the scammer, not the victim. The Victim gets their plat and not affected 

[WhiteMarker]

Just now, DuhItzLink said:

After looking at the problem,  i think the currrent system works as follows: you buy 100 plat. that plat is coded to your bank account. when you trade it, its still coded to your bank account. and when you take back the plat, its coded to your bank account, so its deducted from the victim.

i think a fix is to consider the traded plat the receiver's, and when a player takes back a purchase, it'll deduct plat from their account. 

For example. I have 100 plat, and i buy 100 plat. i use 175 plat on a riven, then take back my purchase. Since I have 25 plat left from the purchase, it'll deduct the 100 i bought, so I'll have -75, and DE will know this guy is scamming. Now it'll ban the scammer, not the victim. The Victim gets their plat and not affected 

This just won't work, because of:

Quote

You can make a new account. Buy plat and trade it to your main, or to a friend.
Then you do a charge back. The new account gets banned, but the plat remains on your or on your friends account.
If DE did it like this, no one would ever pay for plat again. DE would go bankrupt and Warframe would close.

 

[Mr.SpookSpook]

15 hours ago, Erytroxylin said:

😞 I was buying vaulted primes off people around MR 5/6. You would have made me sad panda if I had run into you.

I rather have you be a lil bit of a sad panda than me be a big one.