Ember's endgame damage falloff

[Djego27]

Ember scales well enught, the issue is more about people being universal bad at any frame that requires more then pressing a single button to work. It is incredible obvious on Ember given like everybody stated that as soon as they can not kill stuff by pressing 4 they found Ember completely useless. Same is true for the old Saryn. However both frames had no issues to face roll solo through L150 units(armor or not) assuming you use the scaling mechanics presented in the design. This was for the old Saryn a bit buggy and incredible weapon  mechanic depended, going form nothing to just blowing up the hole map non stop with toxic transfers.

Ember is for the most part just plain straight forward a weapon scaling frame, accelerant gives you a huge bonus to fire based damage all your weapons(you know the same thing that flash accelerant adds). However you can do that far more effective, given that you can also utilize crit on weapons, weapons that accell at single damage type scaling(like the vhek  thx to the crit focus or the rakta cernos with anti faction mods) or can just use status weapons to break armor protection. Back in the days this weapons did low damage, however this was never a issue on Ember given asymmetrical fire scaling actually basically removed the downside on Ember. This did mean that your boar prime was just as good as a boltor prime at low levels(because accelerant is a fairly strong damage buff) and much better at high levels, even if it actually did less damage at any range.

Then again there are also some of the old status/damage hybrid guns like the Mara Detron, that where some of the best weapon in the game on Ember, while being today just silly power creep far beyond any reasonable levels.

https://imgur.com/WJctkCY

This does 25k damage the first shot, while disabling auras with radiation procs and doing double damage from there on with the viral proc, Thx to accelerant, cat buffs and arcanes you can easily get up to 1m damage per second. If you swap out Ice storm with Jolt is also breaks any kind of armor protection on the target.

The issue with Ember is mostly the game that we play today and less the frame(even if I always wanted Fire blast to have the hole ring on fire and being a useful tool to protect stuff against melee units):

- there has nothing been done to make high levels more interesting since the U17 changes to solo in endless missions, enemy damage scaling that one shoots you did never gets fixed(like something just implemented with L1-60 in mind should if you look at the current game), even worse we are back to 100% accuracy with hit scan weapons from the pre U17 days against hosts/solo players, what suck when playing Ember

- Instead of experimenting disabling abilities and extending on eximus auras or other game play elements that would require weapon/frame diversity and reward different approaches to high levels it is just the same boring stuff of endless cheese or simply washed down by inflated EHP and damage values on newer frames and weapons to a point where it does not matter at all, especially if you look at DEs approach that the game where the best and the worst player will mostly perform exactly the same, given how poorly frames and weapons are designed this days

- gear scaling lost most of it's purpose over the years, given that the game simply lacks the content where you would need the gear, nearly every weapon is just oversized for the content that is available, being designed around to get even the worst player in the game though his sorti halve afk

Ember is good designed warframe, one of the last where the player behind it has any impact on the performance, that is simply designed for a game DE will never really make.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Its true that Ember isn't good at sortie levels but when you think about it, most people don't play at that level.

Most of the time, you're farming relics, cracking relics, doing syndicate missions, doing alerts, doing invasions, etc. These are all star chart level missions where Ember works perfectly fine. Warframes like Saryn or Equinox have that huge AoE damage but how often will you ever need it? Most of the game doesn't require that kind of damage.

If anything I would change for Ember, I'd make her 3 give allies that 50% heat damage on a duration instead of having to shoot from inside the flame ring and have it scale with power strength. Make it stackable too. Combining it with her 2 that makes enemies take even more heat damage, she can be one heck of a support.

I guess it wouldn't hurt to give her 4 the Saryn treatment. The range halves and the energy per second doubles but make it so that the damage continues to climb up to 100k heat damage until it turns off. Every time its turned off, the heat damage.resets back to its original.

[Djego27]

You can do L100 solo with Ember in sortis, same as you could do it in 2014 solo in the 1h long survival void runs, what was not something that you could do halve afk with every frame back then.

 

 

 

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

~snip~

truer words could not have been spoken. i think if fortuna turns out to be more of the same ill jump ship. ive put enough time in and more of the same is just not cutting it.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Its true that Ember isn't good at sortie levels but when you think about it, most people don't play at that level.

Most of the time, you're farming relics, cracking relics, doing syndicate missions, doing alerts, doing invasions, etc. These are all star chart level missions where Ember works perfectly fine. Warframes like Saryn or Equinox have that huge AoE damage but how often will you ever need it? Most of the game doesn't require that kind of damage.

If anything I would change for Ember, I'd make her 3 give allies that 50% heat damage on a duration instead of having to shoot from inside the flame ring and have it scale with power strength. Make it stackable too. Combining it with her 2 that makes enemies take even more heat damage, she can be one heck of a support.

I guess it wouldn't hurt to give her 4 the Saryn treatment. The range halves and the energy per second doubles but make it so that the damage continues to climb up to 100k heat damage until it turns off. Every time its turned off, the heat damage.resets back to its original.

the one thing this game needs less of is saryn type map kill. ember kills plenty and just fine. i will repeat one thing that should just not be in a coop game "One person should not be able to do the job of 4 people in a full squad PERIOD".

Edited September 30, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[Arcira]

12 hours ago, Djego27 said:

You can do L100 solo with Ember in sortis, same as you could do it in 2014 solo in the 1h long survival void runs, what was not something that you could do halve afk with every frame back then.

A while ago there was a hyena pack assassination sortie. With my 6 forma Ember build (~2000 ehp) and my buzlok (including riven) it should have been at least somewhat possible right? Wrong. It was literally impossible for me to finish this mission. Maybe I´m super bad at this game who knows but I wasn´t able fire a single shot whitout getting killed. And my melee Life Strike build wasn´t able to keep up with the sheer amount of damage.

So I tried something else: Loki. I thought it would be easy because of his invisibility.

First off my loki doesn´t have any forma at all. And even worse is that I removed litteral every single mod including arcanes and aura just to see wether it would be challenging. It wasn´t. This pretty much sums up balance in this game and Ember beeing perfectly fine. For me Ember is a weapon skin with a emergency stun ... if you are fast enought.

I didn´t test it but I think things like Rhino, Mesa, Nidus, Octacvia, Nezha, Inaros, etc would have been much more easy as well. Just because they have something that really matters: survivability.

edit: If you are searching for survival and Ember on youtube you can find a lot of 10min runs. I was able to find a single video where someone actually did a 1h mot run. Besides getting allomst oneshooted a few times all he really does is sitting behind walls with a punch through ignis and throwing energy pizzas every few seconds. On the other hand if you are looking for something like ivara.. I think you get the point.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Arcira

[SenorClipClop]

On 2018-09-26 at 11:38 PM, DroopingPuppy said:

with only around 10m radius and no survival kit to get close, and wait a while in order to actually make the enemy aflame, means current structure is simply unacceptable

Do you even Fireball? Quick cast, guaranteed Heat proc stun in an area. I am casting Fireball constantly when I play melee Ember. Speaking of stun, also Accelerant, which you'll be using against high-level enemies all the time anyway.

On 2018-09-26 at 3:33 AM, Shatter_vibe802 said:

Her 1 does virtually no damage and costs too much mana to consider using for what you get damage wise. Her 2 is nice for stunning but the increase to fire damage is very minute and doesn't put her dps nearly to where it needs to be.

How are you building her, and to what level of enemies are you comparing her?

[ShortCat]

22 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Ember is for the most part just plain straight forward a weapon scaling frame, accelerant gives you a huge bonus to fire based damage all your weapons(you know the same thing that flash accelerant adds). However you can do that far more effective, given that you can also utilize crit on weapons, weapons that accell at single damage type scaling(like the vhek  thx to the crit focus or the rakta cernos with anti faction mods) or can just use status weapons to break armor protection. Back in the days this weapons did low damage, however this was never a issue on Ember given asymmetrical fire scaling actually basically removed the downside on Ember. This did mean that your boar prime was just as good as a boltor prime at low levels(because accelerant is a fairly strong damage buff) and much better at high levels, even if it actually did less damage at any range.

I completely dissagree on this part. Even with bonus from FA and Accelerant debuff on enemies, the effective damage increase is at the bottom of the list, with the addition, that Ember has to debuff every new enemy to have acces to it. Ember right now is just a subpar weapon platform; explaining how good she is in combination with Mara Detron is just explaining how good Mara Detron is.

22 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Ember is good designed warframe, one of the last where the player behind it has any impact on the performance, that is simply designed for a game DE will never really make.

Really disappointed to hear those words from you. Reducing her kit to one skill and not mentioning how fire procs from other abilities extinguishe her scaling procs from weapons is sign of "good design". Well, there is no issue if you do not use them - long live "ACC Monkey". Even if Warframe would experience some fundamental changes (like Fire proc stacking), Ember's kit will remain one-dimensional:

On 2018-09-27 at 11:40 AM, ShortCat said:

1. - Fireball: fire damage and fire proc CC. Augment - fire damage buff
2. - Accelerant: more fire damage and CC via panic animation (from fire proc, minus the damage component) & castspeed. Augment - fire damge buff
3. - Fireblast: fire damage and fire proc CC. Augment - fire proc CC.
4. - WoF: fire damage and fire proc CC. Augment - knock down (as efefctive as fire proc CC) 

 

[DroopingPuppy]

3 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Do you even Fireball? Quick cast, guaranteed Heat proc stun in an area. I am casting Fireball constantly when I play melee Ember. Speaking of stun, also Accelerant, which you'll be using against high-level enemies all the time anyway.

Ha, Fireball? You mean an ability that has to wait horrible charge time to be usable, even with Natural Talent?

 

Sir, for now, Ember must keep turn off and on WoF at every 6 to 8s, in order to actually cause the damage. Because of her lack of survival, it is sucidial attempts to go melee on the high level(even consider you are expected to be modded focused on survivability). Not to mention about WoF's delay to apply the damage and proc. So called 'spin to win' seems much faster than that.

Fireball has horrible casting time, as I said. Quick cast only procs on the small area, and most frames are already have it so it is nothing special. Charge attack is what she really wants, but because of the horrible casting time you better off shoothing a launcher weapon instead - it is actually possible to charge the ability while shooting, but I doubt that it is possible to move, charge as well as shoot the ranged weapon proprely.

Also... it means you don't have much time and energy to cast Accelerant. You are fully aware that WoF now costs x2 upkeep cost, as well as the costs spend on recast, don't you?

 

[Femuru]

Ember can pretty much be outshined in basically every category so it confuses me to this day of ppl against just wanting to see her good for once. Weapon dmg? Chroma, banshee, harrow, and mirage. Aoe dmg? equinox, Octavia, banshee again, and obviously the broken saryn. Kill potential on lvls of a couple thousand? Ash, mag, banshee again, and nidus. Crowd control? Nova, nyx, loki, frost, volt, and hate to say but limbo. You can love to play her and that's 100% fine but realistically we can still say she is a bad frame. 

[Gnlstorm]

Currently my Ember build - GROWING POWER/POWER DRIFT/PRIMED CONTINUITY/PRIMED VIGOR/INTENSIFY/FIRE QUAKE/QUICK THINKING/CONSTITUTION/STREAMLINE/STRETCH

When i using Ember i sure using Silva and Aegis Prime with this build - PRIMED PRESSURE POINT/PRIMED REACH/PRIMED FURY/CONDITION OVERLOAD/AVENGING TRUTH/VIRULENT SCOURGE/ENDURING AFFLICTION/DRIFTING CONTACT

This is the duo frame and melee is use often...

[DroopingPuppy]

How you can hold it? It requires three times more than the maximum efficiency build.

[Gnlstorm]

3 minutes ago, DroopingPuppy said:

How you can hold it? It requires three times more than the maximum efficiency build.

High duration/zen lens for energy regen/with a good melee combine of condition overload and growing power/high survival ability

[DroopingPuppy]

22 minutes ago, Gnlstorm said:

High duration/zen lens for energy regen/with a good melee combine of condition overload and growing power/high survival ability 

You mean, no WoF? Then what's the point on Fire Quake?

[Gnlstorm]

16 minutes ago, DroopingPuppy said:

You mean, no WoF? Then what's the point on Fire Quake?

I got using WOF but the energy is enough for myself and main purpose of FIRE QUAKE to me is to stun eneimes

Edited October 1, 2018 by Gnlstorm

[Djego27]

Il y a 19 heures, Arcira a dit :

A while ago there was a hyena pack assassination sortie. With my 6 forma Ember build (~2000 ehp) and my buzlok (including riven) it should have been at least somewhat possible right? Wrong. It was literally impossible for me to finish this mission. Maybe I´m super bad at this game who knows but I wasn´t able fire a single shot whitout getting killed. And my melee Life Strike build wasn´t able to keep up with the sheer amount of damage.

So I tried something else: Loki. I thought it would be easy because of his invisibility.

First off my loki doesn´t have any forma at all. And even worse is that I removed litteral every single mod including arcanes and aura just to see wether it would be challenging. It wasn´t. This pretty much sums up balance in this game and Ember beeing perfectly fine. For me Ember is a weapon skin with a emergency stun ... if you are fast enought.

I didn´t test it but I think things like Rhino, Mesa, Nidus, Octacvia, Nezha, Inaros, etc would have been much more easy as well. Just because they have something that really matters: survivability.

edit: If you are searching for survival and Ember on youtube you can find a lot of 10min runs. I was able to find a single video where someone actually did a 1h mot run. Besides getting allomst oneshooted a few times all he really does is sitting behind walls with a punch through ignis and throwing energy pizzas every few seconds. On the other hand if you are looking for something like ivara.. I think you get the point.

Well if you look at sorti boss encounters you look at a lot of broken systems at once.

- enemy damage scaling basically means that you get one shot, by a system that was never intended to work well beyond L60 or such with the old frame values, despite we have a L100 daily, DE never reworked it, instead you get frames with 15-30k EHP, god mode or cheese as a band aid that can simply not die at normal levels

- Bosses are immune to status effects like corrosive, what is utterly absurd given that shattering impact, CP and frame abilities do work, also accelerant did not give you the fire damage bonus against bosses since this changes what I think is fixed by now, but still fairly pointless without the ability to strip the armor

- most bosses in the game are 95% of the time invincibility phase and 5% shooting, what is not a engaging design and works fairly terrible at sorti levels

Ofc it is fairly easy with Loki, because DE never cared to implement a counter invisibility. The same is true for the other frames. The is you just remove a broken mechanic from the game, the damage scaling that if DE would fix it(and boss mechanics) would even be not such a big deal, given that Ember is fairly good at killing bosses quickly before the changes, given that you just strip her amor and dps them down incredible fast with your massive single target damage.

As for survival with Ember, the first one is a 1hs olo run with the twin gremlins from last year that I made for somebody here on the forum that old weapons are so bad that they fall off at L30, what is silly. The other one is solo melee only Ember 70m run, where I did some comparison for a thread about Saryn melee at higher levels with similar damage focused frames without broken EHP.

https://i.imgur.com/WJctkCY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Ffvuxip.jpg

Btw this is all T3, given that T4 is only 3 times the enemy damage and otherwise identical. I for myself never seen the point of the T4 penalty given that it does not really does anything for frames that have a lot of EHP or other mechanics to avoid damage(like most today), it is a fairly one sided penalty applied to a rather questionable system. I think I was at like 47m best at solo back in the days before I took a long break from warframe.

https://i.imgur.com/4De78D0.jpg

This is a solo sorti extra armor survival at L100 on the kuva fortress where again the biggest problem is that you get nearly one shot by everything, while the process of doing damage is by the weapon changes over the year is trivialized to a level that it does not really need a lot of thought or skill on Ember.

Like I did say the issue is mostly in my opinion a mechanic that was never intended to produce good results at L100 in combination with far to many damage buffs to weapons, what render even L100+ content fairly boring to play with one of the last a bit more complex damage warframes, because you do not get really engaged on the damage part any more before enemy damage gets so high that literally everything becomes a one shot kill and the pod dies in seconds while you deal with other mechanics like certain eximus.

https://i.imgur.com/nSendPu.jpg

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2018-09-27 at 5:46 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

then it wouldnt ber Ember

She needs it even if that removes everything she currently has.

But i think changing how the skills function would help her drastically.

 

First of all fireball should have 2 firemodes. One what launches a big orb dealing high scaling damage for high cost and one what launches a burst of small balls covering large are for high cc, loe damage and low cost. Both variants leave flame patches.

Fireblast is changed into a heavy cc skill. It grants forceful pushback what only bosses resist, ignites enemies for panic and grants a wall barrier what both buffs player damage and decreases incoming enemy damage. The skill however deal no damage feom now on.

Accelerant is now an area skill. Pressing it now sprays everything with napalm. Hitting an enemy now grants additional heat damage instead of just increasing incoming heat damage. If the player hits the sprayed ground or walls with a heat based attack the whole patch is set aflame dealing moderate damage for a the whole duration.

World on fire is now an apocalypse style skill. When activated all currently flaming surfaces and enemies radiate out an extreme heatwave dealing double of the total damage of the patches on each enemies hit. Surviving enemies get their guns jammed and their movement slowed. High cost, high damage, medium range, single cast.

[DroopingPuppy]

17 hours ago, Gnlstorm said:

I got using WOF but the energy is enough for myself and main purpose of FIRE QUAKE to me is to stun eneimes 

But you said you are get the energy from zenurik, which is impossible while turn on WoF.... Anyway, I want to ask a question again, that your build costs three times more than maximum efficiency build but how to replenish your energy? You did raise the ability duration but it doesn't turn WoF by 175% efficiency. You need to pay for 1.1 to 4.2 energy, but maximum efficiency build requires 0.32 to 1.5.... Even with maximum efficiency its already horrible upkeep cost, but how you can stay with more than that?

[Gnlstorm]

1 hour ago, DroopingPuppy said:

But you said you are get the energy from zenurik, which is impossible while turn on WoF.... Anyway, I want to ask a question again, that your build costs three times more than maximum efficiency build but how to replenish your energy? You did raise the ability duration but it doesn't turn WoF by 175% efficiency. You need to pay for 1.1 to 4.2 energy, but maximum efficiency build requires 0.32 to 1.5.... Even with maximum efficiency its already horrible upkeep cost, but how you can stay with more than that?

Let play together one day and u will how i maintain my energy well^^

[Djego27]

Le 01/10/2018 à 10:18, ShortCat a dit :

I completely dissagree on this part. Even with bonus from FA and Accelerant debuff on enemies, the effective damage increase is at the bottom of the list, with the addition, that Ember has to debuff every new enemy to have acces to it. Ember right now is just a subpar weapon platform; explaining how good she is in combination with Mara Detron is just explaining how good Mara Detron is.

Ember does completely fine with the weapon damage since years.

April first 1h infested survival solo:

https://imgur.com/KhywTRq

2k solo excavation farming for cores/keys and focus:

https://imgur.com/xKnjpzU

60 waves ODD solo to test the vHek after a few forma:

https://imgur.com/xZyq3oT

All this stuff is years old and power creep just pushed weapons upwards since then. Yes Ember is balanced around old damage buffs like roar or mprime where it is slightly stronger at the expense of being less universal. Ember was also quite balanced compared to another elemental damage frame named Saryn before the last rework where both frames had her pro and con for certain high level scenarios, like Ember being incredible strong against armor and single targets where Saryn did excel at persistently killing maps just by splash damage from the toxic transfers on spore(assuming you had the correct weapons for the frame). Saryn was my 2. most played for over a year and one that I hardly used since the changes, given how dull and boring it plays since then.

Yes there are much more frames that are more durable, with higher damage and playable by the worst player in the game, because they do not require thinking, preparation or understanding the damage system, weapons, frame modding, eximus effects and certain scaling mechanics. However I do not play this frames, because they are utterly boring to a point where you could hardly say you play 3. person shooter.

As for the mara detron, I use it since the day it was released. There where only 2 real good videos on youtube about the gun, every single other one(including the most viewed warframe youtubers) where complete garbage(same as all builds people used on the weapon). I actually did benchmark my gun(that nobody else used) a lot and did beat another aklex prime wielding Ember(it is like once a year when you see another player that can play your frame, while playing every single day) in sortis by 2% damage done in a secondary only sorti pre detron buff( https://imgur.com/F4a9L7k). This is also the reason why I as only player in the hole game pointed out in the thread about the changes that the detron changes are "$&*&*#(%&ed", given that the gun even before the changes was the strongest secondary shotgun in the game, on frames like Ember or Mag it was the best secondary in the hole game...

I only mention the Mara detron, because it is absurd that people mention scaling issues on Ember, while one of the best weapons you can get for the frame is in a absolute broken states of damage application. Like vaporising a L150 eximus heavy gunner in 8 rounds, that is less the 2s for 3,7m armored EHP solo with just self buffs.

Le 01/10/2018 à 10:18, ShortCat a dit :

Really disappointed to hear those words from you. Reducing her kit to one skill and not mentioning how fire procs from other abilities extinguishe her scaling procs from weapons is sign of "good design". Well, there is no issue if you do not use them - long live "ACC Monkey". Even if Warframe would experience some fundamental changes (like Fire proc stacking), Ember's kit will remain one-dimensional: 

You never did scale with WoF fire proc damage, not in 2014 and god knows not today. The reason for this is that this is very trivial damage compared to hitting your targets with weapons build around accelerant.

Fireball is a good quick CC, that you will value after 20h+ above L100 with a frame like the old Saryn, given you only really miss stuff once you do not have it.

I stated my opinion and suggestions about Fire blast a lot over the years. However my suggestion does not sound cool and is only useful for high levels, when you are the only CC frame, because you are solo.

WoF is good CC and lets you farm low levels super effective. Similar to mag where you can do the first 20 waves in range with pull and just crush them 1-2 times it is great for that, while not being your main damage source at higher levels.

Ember is not a one dimensional frame, given that it has incredible good levels of CC for a damage frame(both ability and weapon based), has no issues to defeat any level of armor protection on her own and the best  AOE quick CC in the hole game. Yes it is all depended to mod your weapons around fire damage, same as the old Saryn did require fairly specific weapons to really kill hole maps effective. That is what makes the frame interesting and actually rewards experimenting with weapons and modding, different to all the new warframes that have more or less nothing like that and are mostly just "press 1-2 buttons" while even the worst player in the game could not die with them.

For what exactly would you need fire proc stacking with the current weapon balance, content in the game and DEs attitude to rather create a new semi open world grind that everybody is done with in 2 months instead of working on years old issues in her game? I mean what is even the point for a player that mains a actually fairly balanced damage frame, that has a lot more gear scaling then other frames, when there is no incentive to get new gear, mods, arcanes or focus stuff since years given that everything in the game that is not broken(like getting one shot by a random cannon fodder unit) is already fairly trivial to begin with.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2018 by Djego27

[Teridax68]

As has been pointed out by several others, Ember suffers from the same core problems as Saryn right now: her kit is fundamentally uninteractive, because she has access to a radial damage source that can damage enemies she doesn't even have to know about, that can be used all the time, and that deals damage in such a way that, in some cases, it can kill enemies entirely on its own. However, unlike Saryn, Ember's damage has hard limits and has been nerfed severely over time, limiting her potential in all but most low-level missions. Her most recent series of nerfs, which added the gradual reduction in range and increase in cost to her ult, completely failed to address this, and instead made the problem worse, because it did not target any of the core pillars of what made Ember's World on Fire unhealthy. As such, she needs an update that adds a limitation to her 4: either a) it can no longer damage enemies without Ember expressly targeting them, b) it can no longer be used all the time (and the OP suggests a chance that would address WoF in this manner), or c) it cannot kill enemies on its own.

Adding to the above, though, I also think Ember's kit as a whole is pretty old and could do with an update. Her 1's been saddled with increasingly more effects that haven't added to its gameplay, her 2 being radial I feel makes for a frame that revolves too much around pressing a button to apply multiple overlapping layers of AoE, her 3 fails to contribute anything unique to her gameplay (and is also yet another radial AoE), and her 4 suffers from the problems mentioned above. I think there's plenty of opportunities for Ember to combo her different fire abilities, but as it stands most of her gameplay falls into this super old model where she just presses her buttons in sequence to lay down tons of radial effects, a largely uninteresting model of gameplay that exists on quite a few other frames, such as Nyx and Equinox. I think she needs to be more active, and in exchange for this she should be able to be properly viable at all levels, without having to resort to extremely specific mod setups that don't even work all that well anymore:

• Effects highlighted in red are affected by Power Strength, effects highlighted in blue are affected by Power Efficiency, effects highlighted in green are affected by Power Duration, and effects highlighted in orange are affected by Power Range.
• Passive renamed to Firebird: Ember gains 1 energy for every 4 pre-mitigation damage she takes from Heat procs. Additionally, she fills a gauge by 1% for every second she's set an enemy enemy on fire, stacking with multiple enemies. If Ember takes lethal damage and the gauge is full, she instantly consumes the gauge, resurrects at full health, shields and Energy, and releases a fire blast that ignites all enemies within 15 meters, setting them on fire and dealing 400 damage per second to them over 6 seconds.
• 1 - Fireball: Ember instantly launches a projectile that explodes upon contact, dealing  200 / 300 / 400 / 500 Heat damage to all enemies within 5 meters and setting them on fire, dealing 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 Heat damage per second to them over 6 seconds. The fireball can be charged up over time, increasing its damage and radius by up to 100%. Costs 25 Energy.
  • Augment - Fireball Frenzy: if the fireball hits an ally or herself, the recipient is buffed for 4 / 6 / 8 / 10 seconds, gaining an orbiting fireball each second with 25% of the original fireball's damage and radius, which then linger until used. Attacking an enemy with a weapon or ability hurls all orbiting fireballs at the target.
• 2 - Accelerant: Ember sprays a stream of fuel that sticks to everything it hits and lasts for up to 30 seconds, briefly stunning all enemies it hits and slowing all enemies in contact with it by 25 / 30 / 35 / 50% (caps at 75%). Heat damage from any source ignites the accelerant, causing it to burn over the next 5 seconds, dealing 125 / 150 / 175 / 200% of the triggering damage as Heat damage every second and setting enemies on fire, dealing the same damage per second over 6 seconds. Costs 10 Energy per second.
  • Augment - Flash Accelerant: allies in contact with the ignited accelerant have their total speed increased by 20 / 30 / 40 / 50%.
• 3 renamed to Living Bomb: Ember instantly ignites an enemy for 6 seconds, dealing 200 / 300 / 400 / 500 Heat damage to them every second, and causing them to flee in panic towards their nearest non-panicked allies for the duration. At the end of the duration or upon death, the enemy explodes, dealing 400 / 600 / 800 / 1000 Heat damage to all enemies within 9 / 11 / 13 / 15 meters and setting them on fire, dealing 200 / 300 / 400 / 500 Heat damage per second over 6 seconds. Costs 75 Energy.
  • Augment renamed to Repeating Bomb: enemies hit by the detonation also flee towards nearby non-panicked allies, and detonate at the end of the duration for 25 / 50 / 75 / 100% of the triggering detonation's damage. This can repeat indefinitely.
• 4 - World on Fire: Ember ignites herself, dealing 50 Heat damage to herself every second while the ability is in use. While she is ignited, every enemy within 9 / 11 / 13 / 15 meters is also immolated, taking 7 / 8 / 9 / 10% of their current health and shields as Heat damage every second, while also having their current armor permanently reduced by 7 / 8 / 9 / 10% each time they receive damage from World on Fire. Enemies can be brought down to a minimum of 1 health and armor in this manner. Reactivating the ability ends its effects immediately. Costs no Energy.
  • Augment - Firequake: enemies hit by 7 / 6 / 5 / 4 ticks of World on Fire are knocked down.

The basic idea here is that each of Ember's abilities would have a specific reason to be used: 1 is pure damage, 2 is CC that amplifies fire damage, as is the case now, 3 is a bit of damage and CC that seeks crowds, and 4 is essentially a lot of utility that gives Ember energy for her other abilities, while also softening enemies up to be killed more easily by her other stuff, or anyone else's. She'd have innate survivability tied to setting enemies on fire, and as a whole the above balancing is intended to keep her Power Strength build strong, but also allow space for a potential tank build, where she'd be encouraged to set herself constantly on fire, melt enemies to enable more kills for her entire team, and resurrect more consistently. Additionally, she'd also likely make good use of a Power Range build to maximize setting enemies on fire, and thereby also fuelling her self-rez. All of her abilities would deal damage or lead towards more damage dealt, but she'd no longer simply be able to press 4 to win, and instead would have to use her abilities in conjunction with each other to maximize her power output. With this, she should be allowed to be strong, while still remaining interactive, and avoiding situations where she can clear whole low-level maps just by pressing 4 and walking through them.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Teridax68

[Djego27]

I am actually kind of curious why people want to change Ember so much.

Embers damage sucks at high levels if you do not make use of her main scaling mechanics, same as any of the older warframes in the game that has more to it then pressing 2 buttons.

Assuming you do understand it, every complaint about the damage vanishes because Ember deals a crap ton of damage, with the restriction that it is fire based, that you will have a incredible bad time against heat eximus at L100+ without a specific weapon build around just defeating them and being reliant of actually utilizing rolls, cc and movement instead of just standing there and take it because you have 20 times the EHP that you would need for the given content.

Yes doing L100+ solo on Ember is more difficult then with newer frames, then again how much of a game where you actually act and perform as a player you have left with those? Warframe for the most part just feels like the hole endgame is like LFR in MMOs, where 50% of the people are afk, and the rest giving 50%, while not understanding her class, game mechanics or boss mechanics because the devs tune it exactly around this level of player proficiency because only a very minor population of the game actually really wants to play the game.

A few years ago I joined a normal raid with my paladin that dinged max level just a day before. The raid leader was asking where the problem is when I healed 23k HP(what was more or less our guild standard for normal, where in heroic you had to push a few k more), the guilds best healer did 8k HPS and the wife of the raid leader did 3k HPS(with 50 item levels more then I had, what is like 30-50% more output if you know what you do). What should I have told this people? I tell you, nothing, because any discussion would have been pointless, same as explaining here on the forums how much of the actual game people actually miss out on, because they never experience it currently.

[RealPandemonium]

Hey everybody!

Ember is fine, doot doot, fix the damage system.

 

Have a nice day!

[Femuru]

2 hours ago, Djego27 said:

I am actually kind of curious why people want to change Ember so much.

Embers damage sucks at high levels if you do not make use of her main scaling mechanics, same as any of the older warframes in the game that has more to it then pressing 2 buttons.

Assuming you do understand it, every complaint about the damage vanishes because Ember deals a crap ton of damage, with the restriction that it is fire based, that you will have a incredible bad time against heat eximus at L100+ without a specific weapon build around just defeating them and being reliant of actually utilizing rolls, cc and movement instead of just standing there and take it because you have 20 times the EHP that you would need for the given content.

Yes doing L100+ solo on Ember is more difficult then with newer frames, then again how much of a game where you actually act and perform as a player you have left with those? Warframe for the most part just feels like the hole endgame is like LFR in MMOs, where 50% of the people are afk, and the rest giving 50%, while not understanding her class, game mechanics or boss mechanics because the devs tune it exactly around this level of player proficiency because only a very minor population of the game actually really wants to play the game.

A few years ago I joined a normal raid with my paladin that dinged max level just a day before. The raid leader was asking where the problem is when I healed 23k HP(what was more or less our guild standard for normal, where in heroic you had to push a few k more), the guilds best healer did 8k HPS and the wife of the raid leader did 3k HPS(with 50 item levels more then I had, what is like 30-50% more output if you know what you do). What should I have told this people? I tell you, nothing, because any discussion would have been pointless, same as explaining here on the forums how much of the actual game people actually miss out on, because they never experience it currently.

well for 1 u just answered one of them she sucks and even if u keep saying she not meant for high lvls a MAJORITY of the warframes are completely capable with good mechanics, good dmg, good utility, and good cc but ember isnt. talking about personal skill on a frame that isnt even a high skill cap frame doesnt excuse her to being bad, a good player will always be a good player but its like saying hey lets give this good player a bad weapon that has no perks and another equally skilled player a better weapon that has every perk in the game and expect them to have the same results . we want her to be GOOD that all we want she is a beautiful frame that is considered dirt tier and that just sad. 

2. world on fire technically is the only thing that needs to be changed while the rest just need some kind of buff or tiny tweak. DE has stated they do not want to support the lazy afk style of play and that is all world on fire is with no skill, no real mechanic, and no real usefulness for going into higher places where other frames can. her main kit is just turn on 4 and walk around and even if things "get too hard" and u have to actually shoot well basically every other frame can do the exact same thing but 5-10x better. learning to shoot and dodge properly is apart of basically EVERY warframe so saying her kit sucks and to improve players base skills still end up saying ember is bad herself and she isnt even a high skill frame where others have a higher skill cap to utilize their kits for better potential/rewarding as for ember its a matter of just learn to "survive".  i have a couple hundred hours on her and most my time with her was afk farm cuz she was never good at anything else and i think thats a waste of a frame.

3. the game is always changing in several years of warframe i see enemies change up, frames, mechanics, movement, maps, all of it. things need to be improved as time goes on or it just dies out and that is what warframe is about, constant change for the better cuz this isnt the same game 5 years ago its now a game that can thrive to be better. frames are a big part to the game and they are no different, i can understand if the change is not to yur taste but take a look at the nezha rework he basically has the EXACT SAME kit but he is literally 10x better than before. tho the one ability that ember probly shouldnt keep exactly the same is world on fire but a lazy afk toggled on ability isnt wat gamers should strive for.

Edited October 2, 2018 by ShenRyujin

[Xana_Skullsunder]

They should just make Ember's passive be "free corrosive proc on each fire proc." Bam. It's a messy fix, but it's something an intern could code in during an afternoon, and it'll at least keep her from being useless until DE can properly rework her from the ground up.