The difference between a Vet and an endgame player, and why it matters.

[drost02]

     I've been playing Warframe since update 9. no one can argue I'm a vet. Melee 1.0, Excal super jump, serrated damage, the many reworks, etc. I'm also an endgame player. So is my girlfriend. MR 25, and 20 respectfully. But , she is not a Vet. She is from update 18. She has played for 3 years. She only became an endgame player about a year ago. But even then, there is a huge difference between me and her. And that's because I'm a vet. She has a respectable amount of stuff, from 4+ forma weapon builds, to multiple builds for different situations on her frames. But. There are differences.

     I have all companions. I don't just have all the corrupted mods, I have multiple copies of each. some of which are just used for 1 build (I'm looking at you, Blind Rage). I have all the Archwing, with multiple formas in each. I have all the Ordis scans, all the fish scans, all the kurias, all the frame fighters, all the music. I have all the dual stat mods, and the set mods. I'm close to completing the game. dont get me wrong, I'm missing a few things, but recently my play sessions seem to be a scavenger hunt of whats left to do. Which is why I love playing with my girlfriend. Her list is longer. I help her by giving her advice on strats, and whats worth investing time in, and general lore she missed out on. there are builds like equinox overextended maim build she would have never discovered, that was everywhere when that frame came out. 

   But she is an endgame player. and Warframe does need to build content for her. For them to catch up to us. It took her so long to want to even get into eidolon hunting because she knew there was other systems she was missing out on, such as corrupted mods, and doing spy missions to get Ivara and dualstats,etc. And we only got into so that we could get her arcanes. I didn't care for it because I had all the good ones, and most of the other ones too. But I think we need more things like sanctuary onslaught, because it helps newer endgame players grind focus. We need rathuum, becuase it helps them get endo. We need things like index, so they can power level credits. we need more systems to reward endgame players for devoting time into things to farm other things. And while things for vets would be nice, lets just remember we already have things. we have event only swag, from sydanas, to emblems, etc. but more importantly we have the memories, and the community. we have the shared experiences. 

[K4RN4]

Where exactly do you draw the line? I have started playing not even 3 years ago and I am MR 25, have all the gear one can have, all mods that are shown in the codex, all Kuria and so on. Am I a vet now? 

[DeMonkey]

This thread reads more like a humblebrag than constructive feedback, tbh.

We aren't going to be getting an endgame in Warframe any time soon, if ever. Powercreep and blatantly overpowered gear is what many people enjoy, and for as long as they exist there will never be truly challenging content. Not without a lot of development time, which for a game intended to be "bite sized" is... not likely to create a great RoI.

Edited September 29, 2018 by DeMonkey
Ergh

[Mover-NeRo]

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

This thread reads more like a humblebrag than constructive feedback, tbh.

 

Feel the same way....was reading it all and could not find what is the topic of this. And it ended with smt like we need more Index / ESO.

How does farming credits, endo or focus help "non-vets" get the music, frame fighters, kuria, mods..to be "vet" ? I am missing the point of this.

[Rawbeard]

tl;dr

it doesn't matter, though.

[Askell91]

I don't realy know where to start and how not to offend you. That's not my goal. Just want to state my thoughts.

I would define a vet not by Mastery Rank, and definietly not by stuff he own.

A vet is (in my eyes) who have at least 2500- in game play time (not the steam one but in game what he spent in missions), have a good amount of knowledge about the game,  can accomplish things with weaker gear than others can with good gear, and helps others occasionally (either be from his clan or random people).

(and to be honest you are not the one who gonna decide if you are a veteran, what you wrote down is just an elitist at it's finest)

About the last part.... Rathum, Index, Sanctuary Onslaught. Why would they need more catch up mechanism? Becouse these are just that. Why would they need more hand holding.. What a vet needs is challange. And there is none in the game for now becouse it always get's watered down for new players halfway..(just look at the recently announced "Elite Alerts" what gonna come out. It started from lvl 100 and, at the last Prime Time it was down to 60lvl enemys... Thats a joke..and a bad one. Gimme 150-200 lvl enemys so I can bring some serious gear....) And you want more of that mind numbing easy grind...I'm disappointed. 

Personaly I want some challanging and fun game modes / opponents. Grinding is okay when you want to put on some music and switch off, but there is nothing right now for vetereans to enjoy in the game (at least in my eyes). Well.. there is fashion frame bug meh >_>.

[K4RN4]

9 minutes ago, Askell91 said:

A vet is (in my eyes) who have at least 2500- in game play time (not the steam one but in game what he spent in missions), have a good amount of knowledge about the game,  can accomplish things with weaker gear than others can with good gear, and helps others occasionally (either be from his clan or random people).

The first point seems rather random, as play time counts time in realys/dojos, but not the hours we spend balancing out builds and doing fashionframe. The other points seem pretty good indicators, although they are a bit hard to quantify.

[Askell91]

1 hour ago, Oru5732 said:

The first point seems rather random, as play time counts time in realys/dojos, but not the hours we spend balancing out builds and doing fashionframe. The other points seem pretty good indicators, although they are a bit hard to quantify.

Well about the first point. The timer in stats only counts towards time spent in missions.

About the rest. Well thats why i stated: "(and to be honest you are not the one who gonna decide if you are a veteran)" 

And I agree It's hard to define veteran in this game, but this is how I judge who is a vet and who is not. Others may have different opinion.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

It doesn't matter how anyone defines vet in this game, the OP's point still stands: there is a distinct difference between what these two groups of players want, need and ask for.

However you define a vet, however you define endgame, there is a difference between those who are there and those catching up.

And you want them to catch up, because once they are they will be asking for the same things you are, and DE has to play to its market. If you want something to happen persuade more players to ask for it.

For instance, someone who has maxed out all their focus trees is going to ask for different things than someone still working through unbinding their operator nodes. That's whether you count either one of them as vets or not.

So yeah, more catch-up content for MR18 or so and would be good.

[Askell91]

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

It doesn't matter how anyone defines vet in this game, the OP's point still stands: there is a distinct difference between what these two groups of players want, need and ask for.

However you define a vet, however you define endgame, there is a difference between those who are there and those catching up.

And you want them to catch up, because once they are they will be asking for the same things you are, and DE has to play to its market. If you want something to happen persuade more players to ask for it.

For instance, someone who has maxed out all their focus trees is going to ask for different things than someone still working through unbinding their operator nodes. That's whether you count either one of them as vets or not.

So yeah, more catch-up content for MR18 or so and would be good.

So.. the game is out for like what, 5 years now? And still not enough player caught up with content so they can beg too to DE so they will make end game.

You know what gonna happen with those who catch up? They will go and play other games while waiting for main-line updates.

Bra..Logic..Use it.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Askell91

[drost02]

2 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

However you define a vet, however you define endgame, there is a difference between those who are there and those catching up.

2

This was my whole point. I'm terrible about how to word things sometimes and I wasn't trying to brag, I was trying to establish some level of credibility as to me being a vet,

 

17 hours ago, Mover-NeRo said:

How does farming credits, endo or focus help "non-vets" get the music, frame fighters, kuria, mods..to be "vet" ? I am missing the point of this.

2

Catchup helps them by freeing them up to enjoy other aspects of the game. To let them have time to utilize these things. Because while farming, you aren't specifically stuck farming 1 thing most of the time. Doing spy missions gets you both Ivara parts and dual stats, the Bane of Corrupted mods while farming Harrow, Four Riders and Final Harbingers while farming Ash, etc. But you know what I did have to help her do for a while? farm credits to build things in the foundry, to put endo into mods, and I was so far past needing credits for any of that, and I had been so long removed from the need of it that I kept forgetting that even if I helped her get x,y, and z she couldn't really use it. But she is also past this to a certain extent. she is going and finding the glass fish, and the simaris rep to get frame fighters

 

18 hours ago, Oru5732 said:

Where exactly do you draw the line? I have started playing not even 3 years ago and I am MR 25, have all the gear one can have, all mods that are shown in the codex, all Kuria and so on. Am I a vet now? 

I'm more of drawing the line with "do you have all the things." generally I find it more useful to include your an update X vet, not just a vet specifically for the reason that, to some people, having all the things don't make you a vet, it's having been there. But is there an in-game difference with someone versus another if we both have all the same stuff, but I happen to remember something that isn't even in-game anymore and has no use? but I give you an example of why I consider myself a vet. when Rathuum came out, not only did I have Inaros already maxed out and ready, when the tigris prime came out later, and I wanted some endo, I came back and already had all the dual stat mods, and just wiped the floor with them, got my endo, left. with my girlfriend, it was more like, 

 

Spoiler

"I need endo"
 "Do rathuum  then"
 "I keep dying"
 "use Inaros?"
 " i don't have him"
 "well, do you atleast  have the tigris  prime?"
 "yes"
"well you should be fine with something mildly tanky since 100% status should just kill them"
"how do I get that? I can't get mine up that high"
"use the dual stat mods"
"what are those" -stares into her soul-
"those are amazing, and you want them .You get them from spy missions now."
"I don't like running those, I always seem to mess up one of them."
 "ya, it takes a bit to learn the rooms, and Grineer underwater spy can go somewhere. but just use the augment with Ivara."
 -stares into her soul again-
"you don't have Ivara, do you?"

 So tldr  version is that she needed endo, so we ended up doing corpus spy missions to get dual stats, so that she could do rathuum by herself  better. A vet to me is someone that when new content comes out, they don't need to run back and do old content to "catch up". they know builds, and strats, and how gameplay mechanics function to a higher degree. 

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

1 hour ago, Askell91 said:

So.. the game is out for like what, 5 years now? And still not enough player caught up with content so they can beg too to DE so they will make end game.

No dude, that's exactly the point. The game is 5 years old, with a few players who've played it all that time, twice that for 4 years, twice again for 3 years, and so on. Someone who picked is up with PoE may have have beaten all the content, but they won't have maxed out focus, gotten all the arcanes, etc.

The OP is asking for content to help them level faster than their predecessors.

I'm saying we want that because if everyone is sitting at the end "waiting for main line updates" then those updates are going to cater for them.

Currently DE is not doing that - new content is aimed at MR14-20 players, and then MR25/900 days players come on here and moan that it isn't hard enough for them. Pick one: either bring most of the player base up to your level, or accept that DE is gonna target the median player and that contentcs going to be trivially easy for you.

 

[CarrotSalad]

Challenging content is what exactly?

• Is challenging getting 1 hit k/o'd?
• Is challenging content solving huge puzzles that once solved are no longer challenging (ala Octavia anthem, spy, assault).
• Is challenging content having to shoot 1,000 million rounds into the same enemy while your team is using all warframe powers to keep everyone else alive?
• Is challenging content scraping for energy orbs because eximus units keep sapping you dry?
• Is challenging content throwing mathematical equasions at you ala Donkey kong math style?
• Is challenging content needing everyone having a 1 millisecond response time to prevent your teams getting wiped by mechanics?

Only 2 of those additions of challenge im a fan of (spy/assault) and Donkey style math lol. Because they dont require gear checks that have been designed around heavily bad grinding that no matter what you say turns allot of people off games entirely.

I use this game to sit back, relax and maybe slaughter some masses or just play with some digital victims. Challenges in real life are more than sufficient for me.

I noticed you havent mentioned Lunaro, Conclave or any of the PVP modes against other players? Is it too challenging for you? I guess youre not a fan of the challenge you get from fighting someone on equal footing.

[Ozamchist]

The only way to make "endgame" content work is if it doesn't reward more power than you already have, but everyone complains when the reward isn't more power so here we are.

[xFrontear]

And? So what of it? Realistically, it doesn't matter. Both you and your girlfriend are inevitably going to end up in the same situation, game is done, now you wait for updates. 

 

What point are you trying to make?

 

[Modeaus]

End game? Veteran? If I use the same metric as you you're only an end game player while I'm the Vet and we both know that's absurd. I took a break and skipped some content that you probably played through. Labels dude. They mean nothing. 

As for end game in WF there is none. I take my MR5 alt account to "end game" content and have no trouble with it. I would take low MR players through trials to bag them credits and arcanes for trade. There's no restriction on content other than quest completion and that's a fairly new thing. MR is about the grind, not player competence. 

It sounds like what you're really angling towards are proper scaling rewards and more content. These are arguments as old as WF. We've wanted scaling rewards for ever but DE always say no because all it will really do is increase the gap between older and newer players. Any high reward content can probably be aced by veterans within hours and will become just another farm until the rewards tank in value. Then the newer players are left unable to complete without a carry until they pass the gear check requirements. Eidolons & ESO are great examples of this.   

As for content DE are trying but for the same reasons as scaling rewards they have to make it available to the incoming player base. It's one thing that Second Dream comes so late in the game but when you tout a fancy open world map to new audiences they better be able to play it immediately. This inevitably means that the content is bland for old players who roll through it without much though and snag the rewards on the first try. 

My hope is that once DE get open world content on the starter worlds, probably out to Phobos, that they will have enough content for new players and will start looking at the end game again. Then I would like to see a trial per planet, some tied to the open world while others are more LoR or JV style. A mix of classic trials and Eidolon hunts themed for the planet and boss on that world. By that time there will be plenty of frames and weapons to make hitting MR30 a byproduct of playing the game and we'll forget this nubs and vets crap.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Modeaus

[Volinus7]

I don't think someone needs to remind an incremental clicking game that it needs more incremental clicking. 

[Gnlstorm]

To me endgame is all about Fashion frame..Time mean nothing i started Warframe on 2016 Aug and become MR25 using 1 Years Those achievement u mention etc: Kuria/Glass fish/Fighter frame is easy to get if u got lot of free time and those achievement like Acrane/Mods is easy to get if u got lot of free time and can achieve it easily. Fashion is the only thing make u feel great... 

THING LIKE THIS MAKE ME FEEL HAPPY >.^

[Blade_Wolf_16]

Wait, so even if I played WF for 3 1/2 year out of 5 with almost 4k Steam Hours (which does mean something @Askell91 since it also represents the time spent chatting in region, selling stuff in Trade, making builds, Fashion Frame, etc. Even Region chat can make people learn things on the game in various ways), I can't be a "vet" because I never did endurance runs of 2+ hours to boost up my In Mission counter by doing the same clicking over and over? (Let's face it, 30min or 4 hours of Void survival hiding in the sewers doesn't mean much.)

If being a vet only means spending time grinding in hours-long missions with boring Meta, doing Trials with boring Meta and Eidolon Hunts with boring Meta, then I guess I'm better being a "noob" who plays for fun with the stuff I like. I don't have all the mods; I don't have more cred/plat than I can spend; I don't have the optimal builds for every Meta wep/frame; I don't have the best Arcanes; I don't have all the scans; I don't have any interest in having nothing left to do with this game. 

I'm not aiming at being the most overpowered spammer of all. I'm not gonna look at vids to find all the Kurias/Fishes in one go. I'm going to play the way I want, as I did for more than 3 years now: casualy, for fun. If this means I'm not a Vet, then I don't want to be one. 

[RistN]

21 minutes ago, Gnlstorm said:

Time mean nothing i started Warframe on 2016 Aug and become MR25 using 1 Years Those achievement u mention etc: Kuria/Glass fish/Fighter frame is easy to get if u got lot of free time and those achievement like Acrane/Mods is easy to get if u got lot of free time and can achieve it easily.

Time means everything actually.There are a lot of MR 25 running around like complete noobs clueless about most basic things in this game.Then you look at their profile and time played and you realize why is that so.

[Gnlstorm]

1 minute ago, RistN said:

Time means everything actually.There are a lot of MR 25 running around like complete noobs clueless about most basic things in this game.Then you look at their profile and time played and you realize why is that so.

Warframe now is easy to reach MR25 it because ton of new weapons, ton of way to level fast and easy.. Recall back 3 years ago when i started Warframe not enough weapon to level and if u want level fast the only thing u can do is endless...

[RistN]

4 minutes ago, Gnlstorm said:

Warframe now is easy to reach MR25 it because ton of new weapons, ton of way to level fast and easy.. 

Having new weapons means only more things to upgrade which kinda contradicts that its easier to get to top lvl now.As for missions,we always had that one mission that has high xp gain,like DRACO was for years and Hydron after they nerfed it.Now we only have a lot more missions to choose from on which we upgrade our gear,they are no better from ones we had in the past.

10 minutes ago, Gnlstorm said:

Recall back 3 years ago when i started Warframe 

Didnt you say you started 2 years ago?

54 minutes ago, Gnlstorm said:

i started Warframe on 2016 Aug

 

13 minutes ago, Gnlstorm said:

not enough weapon to level and if u want level fast the only thing u can do is endless...

As I said Draco was the main and the best mission for farming xp.It was played for 20 waves and there was nothing endlless about it.Only endless mission that was played was Hieracon because you get nice xp,fusion cores and T4/T3 keys.

I also don't understand what you said about "not enough weapons".3 years ago highest MR was like what ?19 or 20...maybe even lower.There was no MR 25 then or there could be one 🙂

[Askell91]

21 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

No dude, that's exactly the point. The game is 5 years old, with a few players who've played it all that time, twice that for 4 years, twice again for 3 years, and so on. Someone who picked is up with PoE may have have beaten all the content, but they won't have maxed out focus, gotten all the arcanes, etc.

The OP is asking for content to help them level faster than their predecessors.

I'm saying we want that because if everyone is sitting at the end "waiting for main line updates" then those updates are going to cater for them.

Currently DE is not doing that - new content is aimed at MR14-20 players, and then MR25/900 days players come on here and moan that it isn't hard enough for them. Pick one: either bring most of the player base up to your level, or accept that DE is gonna target the median player and that contentcs going to be trivially easy for you.

 

Are you for real?.. You exactly want the opposite of what should be done... Peoples leave becouse after they got where they wanted, there is NOTHING to keep them playing. 

You think if your help them rush even more content to max MR that will help keeping them in the game? 

Anyway you think with gear and MR experience will come too so they will be worthi of that "MR 25 title"? No. Most players won't even bother to hit up a Wikipedia page to get some info.

Those are exactly the players you wanna make. The 500 hour MR 25 player nightmares who have no clue what's going on. MR means nothing..

And even you admited DE make content for these people.

So even after 5 years here we are with nothing to do for maxed players. Why would peoples stay? They will stay if you make them get decked out easyer and faster? Ridiculous..

 Just think about it for a minute. I mean if you can...

[Askell91]

1 hour ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Wait, so even if I played WF for 3 1/2 year out of 5 with almost 4k Steam Hours (which does mean something @Askell91 since it also represents the time spent chatting in region, selling stuff in Trade, making builds, Fashion Frame, etc. Even Region chat can make people learn things on the game in various ways), I can't be a "vet" because I never did endurance runs of 2+ hours to boost up my In Mission counter by doing the same clicking over and over? (Let's face it, 30min or 4 hours of Void survival hiding in the sewers doesn't mean much.)

No, sorry It means exactly nothing. And camp farming is one of the most boring as hell things to do in Warframe what you can do. So ye no thanks either.

1 hour ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

If being a vet only means spending time grinding in hours-long missions with boring Meta, doing Trials with boring Meta and Eidolon Hunts with boring Meta, then I guess I'm better being a "noob" who plays for fun with the stuff I like. I don't have all the mods; I don't have more cred/plat than I can spend; I don't have the optimal builds for every Meta wep/frame; I don't have the best Arcanes; I don't have all the scans; I don't have any interest in having nothing left to do with this game

Than why are you so upset about being called a veteran or not? Contradiction..contradiction everywhere.

 

1 hour ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

I'm not aiming at being the most overpowered spammer of all. I'm not gonna look at vids to find all the Kurias/Fishes in one go. I'm going to play the way I want, as I did for more than 3 years now: casualy, for fun. If this means I'm not a Vet, then I don't want to be one.

Totaly understandable and fine way to play.

But still what do you think would benefit the game?

Makeing more content for mid tier players so they can burn trough all the content even faster or make content for decked out players so they can enjoy the game too. 

I think the later one would make peoples stay with the game not just log on for Log in reward/ Sortie than log off.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 3 minutes, Askell91 a dit :

No, sorry It means exactly nothing. And camp farming is one of the most boring as hell things to do in Warframe what you can do. So ye no thanks either.

Than why are you so upset about being called a veteran or not? Contradiction..contradiction everywhere.

 

Totaly understandable and fine way to play.

But still what do you think would benefit the game?

Makeing more content for mid tier players so they can burn trough all the content even faster or make content for decked out players so they can enjoy the game too. 

I think the later one would make peoples stay with the game not just log on for Log in reward/ Sortie than log off.

So time means nothing, but Mr doesn't either. What counts then? What makes the difference if even the very first player wouldn't be a Vet if he played everyday casualy until now, yet a guy who started 4 months ago who russhed everything and learned quickly how the game works (#wiki) could?

I'm not upset about being a vet or not. What is upsetting is how everybody seems to reject some criterias to make it more and more restrictive even for those who played intensively for many years, yet still include themselves in the "Vet" category. As you said above, you can't decide if you're a vet.

I know you should be rewarded for staying more than 20 wave. I know the loot tables are mostly crap. I also know that DeMonkey is right and that powercreep will eventualy ruin any kind of new content DE adds, because it constanlty pushes further than what Warframe was supposed to offer in terms of challenge. Senda shoud be difficult, since it's the last "planet" of the system, yet nobody really cares about it. If it's not Mot, people don't give a crap about lvl 40-50. Even Sorties should be challenging, yet it's a spin-2-win/Maim/Saryn/Amprex/Ignis/etc. fest where you can't do anything if you're not playing solo or using the same Meta crap other are using and tying to be faster than them at killing.  

 

To me, Vet didn't mean "Meta" nor "thousands of hours in mission". It meant actual knowledge of the game (lore, characters, mechanics; pros and cons; from past to present with a bit of future.), not just knowledge of the optimal Meta builds, how to cheese the Lua spy vaults and the most recent leaked info. It meant investment, not by buying plat or spending a lifetime in a survival stabbing enemies with Ivara for "challenge", but by actualy being beneficial to the community, by either helping new players, helping the Wiki, having fun chatting with people in Region (because actualy playing isn't the only possible way to enjoy the game), giving feedback or just hanging out on the forums, etc.

But hey, what do I know. Maybe I was completely wrong and only performance can make me a Vet. In which case, I don't want to be one, simply because I prefer playing casual ike I always did rather than abusing the powercreep to cheese through the game just so I can complain that there is no "endgame" to be cheesed so I can ask for more "endgame" and so on.

That's just not Warframe to me at this point.