Riven disposition conundrum : Soma Prime vs Gram Prime

[Xeryla]

Gram prime strongest melee? OH COME ON, it's not even close to zaw weapons, not to mention zaw weapons can have their own arcanes (not much) but it adds up, and it doesn't require you to sacrifice 1 of your warframe arcane slot just to put a gimmick on it.

and lets face it, after the hype settles, gram prime will be forgotten (almost), because players are still using the whip/polearm memeing style, not OP as last time, but it gets the job than faster than the gram prime ( I got DMG + Range + AS and a negative SD riven) its the perfect gram riven for me and I still look like a MR 1 running around with my useless stick because I cant kill anything with it ( because there are no enemies left).

Sure it is overpowered when youre playing solo so you can kill with it, but it goes the same for the whip/polearm users, not to mention they will always have the longer range and faster attack speed.

- - - It's not the riven disposition that makes the problem, its the players mind that makes the problem, even if DE nerf and buff those weapons disposition, players will ALWAYS find another way to cheese something and it might be worse than the first one.

And if you are saying prisma grakata is better than soma prime? I don't think so, my soma can kill sortie 3 enemies ( any faction) without problems, now if you're like those certain youtuber scrubs who test their weapons on MOT for 9999999 hrs then yeah, most to all weapons  will be useless because it works that way and will always work that way

The only thing that DE can do to this rivens is to make it untradable or have a trade count limit on the rivens ( this is a solution to pacify the players  who are crying because there are resellers and they are salty because they cant earn platinum )

[Absens]

People seriously are missing the point.

The problem is not the gram prime being the strongest melee, problem is, the fact that gram has 5 riven dispositions, while some other underperforming weapons have less than that.

Rivens are there to allow underperforming weapons to compete with the better ones. And they are not doing that currently. I really do not know how people cant see that.

[bubbabenali]

Am 1.10.2018 um 14:42 schrieb -VM-ROSKE:

Gram prime is strong, but not the strongest Plague Kriptah Zaws are. Gram prime is a melee Soma prime a primary can't compare. Soma Prime is solid strong without a riven, Prisma grakata garbage, stop crying

I hate to brake it to you, but with a good riven the Prisma Grakata dances on Soma Primes grave.

1 disposition rivens on the other hand are only usable in very rare cases.

The Soma Prime is still good tho - just not god tier like in the past anymore.

[Peter]

5 hours ago, Xeryla said:

Gram prime strongest melee? OH COME ON, it's not even close to zaw weapons, not to mention zaw weapons can have their own arcanes (not much) but it adds up, and it doesn't require you to sacrifice 1 of your warframe arcane slot just to put a gimmick on it.

and lets face it, after the hype settles, gram prime will be forgotten (almost), because players are still using the whip/polearm memeing style, not OP as last time, but it gets the job than faster than the gram prime ( I got DMG + Range + AS and a negative SD riven) its the perfect gram riven for me and I still look like a MR 1 running around with my useless stick because I cant kill anything with it ( because there are no enemies left).

Sure it is overpowered when youre playing solo so you can kill with it, but it goes the same for the whip/polearm users, not to mention they will always have the longer range and faster attack speed.

- - - It's not the riven disposition that makes the problem, its the players mind that makes the problem, even if DE nerf and buff those weapons disposition, players will ALWAYS find another way to cheese something and it might be worse than the first one.

And if you are saying prisma grakata is better than soma prime? I don't think so, my soma can kill sortie 3 enemies ( any faction) without problems, now if you're like those certain youtuber scrubs who test their weapons on MOT for 9999999 hrs then yeah, most to all weapons  will be useless because it works that way and will always work that way

The only thing that DE can do to this rivens is to make it untradable or have a trade count limit on the rivens ( this is a solution to pacify the players  who are crying because there are resellers and they are salty because they cant earn platinum )

They compare to Gram ignoring attack speed, if so, then I can say that Opticor is the game's strongest weapon.

There are times when you can not take the community seriously.

[Peter]

4 hours ago, Absens said:

People seriously are missing the point.

The problem is not the gram prime being the strongest melee, problem is, the fact that gram has 5 riven dispositions, while some other underperforming weapons have less than that.

Rivens are there to allow underperforming weapons to compete with the better ones. And they are not doing that currently. I really do not know how people cant see that.

Gram can do that?

Disposition =/= power.

[Axio.]

Not sure if anyone's brought this up yet, but a weapon's Mastery requirement also plays a huge part in Riven Disposition. The Soma Prime has an MR requirement of 7. Meanwhile, the Gram Prime's is 14, so that can explain away some of the discrepancy.

It's no secret that the basic Gram is a fairly poor weapon, which led it to having very low usage rates, and its prime variant was not released when Rivens were released, so there was no reason to use it outside of Mastery Fodder, making it perfect for a high riven disposition. The Soma Prime, however, was very popular when Rivens were released, and so it took a hit to its disposition. Taking into account the high popularity of the weapon, as well as the low MR requirement for the Soma Prime, it's easy to see why it got an insanely low Riven disposition... Heck, it might even be hard coded to stay extremely low, so that Somaciding entire rooms with a single clip never comes back into the meta.

I personally don't like the Soma Prime too much, far too inaccurate for my tastes... I like the Baza much more than either the Soma or Tenora, but that's just me.

 

EDIT: I went back through some posts and saw where I overlooked someone mentioning the MR requirements before me! Sorry to waste everyone's time .w.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Axio.

[Xeryla]

11 hours ago, Absens said:

People seriously are missing the point.

The problem is not the gram prime being the strongest melee, problem is, the fact that gram has 5 riven dispositions, while some other underperforming weapons have less than that.

Rivens are there to allow underperforming weapons to compete with the better ones. And they are not doing that currently. I really do not know how people cant see that.

yes, it is a fact that there are lots of underwhelming weapons out there compared to popular weapons, and they released the riven mods to make those weapons at least viable or to make it on-par with the popular ones. BUT, DE did the right decision of adjusting those MR requirements from the last weapon adjustments (primaries and secondaries) to address this problem,


for example,  you have a real life m16 rifle (low tier weapon), but the government (DE) doesn't want you to put attachments to it, hence youre stuck on a plain m16 rifle right? but as time passes you get better and finally the government (DE) gives you a modded m4a1 (high tier weapon) and also gives you the permission to put mods on your 1st m16 and your already modded m4a1.

now, what most likely you will do is, make your modded m4a1 BETTER because it already has a better features to it.

this is the same with warframe, why choose to improve the weak weapon to atleast make it on par with the strong weapons, when you can improve the stronger weapons to get the best damage output.

thing is, they really cant just nerf/buff those riven disposition all the time,
imagine this, before you sleep you got the best stat riven for your high tier weapon, then tomorrow after you log in you saw that it became trash because DE just adjusted that disposition.
result is, you get salty, you blame DE, you rage quit, you also blame those scrubs who wants to adjust those disposition in the blink of an eye, you became toxic, you then post on forums rallying other salty scrubs to flame DE.

that's what DE is trying to avoid

and this problem ALWAYS happen on all RPG genre, there is always that weak weapon that will carry you until you find a better weapon and the cycle goes on and on

 

[Orakan]

So long story short, we all agreed all weapons with riven disposition 1 and 5 should be check again if they worthy to that amount or not and DE act about that situation immidieatly

[Arcira]

I think a lot of people don´t know the main purpose of rivens.

If you want a player to be interested in new stuff you need to give them a reason. This can be a new mechanic which is quite effortful or a cool design which is kinda subjective. An easy way to this is power creep because who doesn´t want the most powerful weapon in his arsenal?

The problem is if your weapons become more and more powerful older stuff will be obsolete at some point. After some time you need to introduce a reset mechanic in order to keep things in line.

A clever thing about riven mods is that they combine a balance update with actual content. However there main purpose has been expired at this point. Weapon rebalance (including melee 3.0) is the current replacement and that´s why I think changes to riven mods are unlikely. At least for now. The cycle will continue nonetheless and eventually there will be other resets like disposition updates, damage 3.0, etc.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Arcira

[Celas_]

its easy just increase all stats from weak weapons to keep up with the "main" weapons and set all riven on a disposition on 3.

[Orakan]

No actually it is not working like that . some weapons has some specific needs other than damage  ;for example my phage riven has damage multipleyer and -weapon recoil and and - infested damage. Other than the damage -weapon recoil is a perfeft fit for phage to close it up wayfaster than original which is a huge diffrence. On another example twin roggas needs a reload speed other than damage multipleyer cause it already hitting like a maul and getting damage multishot combo won't give you any advantage or make the weapon fun to use. 

So because of that reason riven logic is as it is kinda decent , but dispossition is not working as intended.

[000l000]

Le 01/10/2018 à 17:08, Peter a dit :

Soma Prime: MR 7, assault rifle

Gram Prime: MR 14, heavy blade

Case solved. This threads are so easy to decipher - Guys should stop comparing anything anywhere anytime.

[(PSN)Raptor_T9X]

On 2018-10-08 at 8:17 PM, Axio. said:

Not sure if anyone's brought this up yet, but a weapon's Mastery requirement also plays a huge part in Riven Disposition. The Soma Prime has an MR requirement of 7. Meanwhile, the Gram Prime's is 14, so that can explain away some of the discrepancy.

 

1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

Case solved. This threads are so easy to decipher - Guys should stop comparing anything anywhere anytime.

Case is not solved. Again as always and I do not understand where people are getting this from, RIVEN DISPOSITION IS NEVER CALCULATED BASED ON MASTERY RANK. Riven disposition is all calculated based on weapon usage/popularity which is set by DE. Doing a quick search even provided information about this issue:

and from the warframe wikia:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Riven_Mods

Disposition

"The randomized attributes for Riven mods are affected by Disposition, a modifier provided by the system that collates the usage popularity of a given weapon across the entire player base. "

 

and finally from the lady herself from Dev Workshop: Weapons, Mastery Ranks, and Stats!

On 2018-02-05 at 5:22 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

For those of you in the Riven Market, please be aware these stats will not affect Riven dispositions. Player popularity / usage stats will continue to be the metric for that.

However in the same Dev workshop thread, it does state that mastery rank for a weapon is based on their stats and overall DPS:

On 2018-02-05 at 5:22 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

So what are these Mastery Rank grouping guidelines?

We sketched out Mastery Rank groupings of 0-3, 4-6, 7-9, 10-12 and 13-15 for each weapon type with a minimum DPS and amount split between crit and status for each group. Using existing stats, weapons were sorted into the groups. If their stats were too high for their current MR it was raised along with any other properties to match.
 

Example: Tiberon

Its damage places it in MR 10-12 but its crit and stat split is way too low. MR is increased along with status and critical chance to match its new MR. Increasing status and critical boosts its damage so it's reduced down to fit back into the MR group guidelines its original stats dictated

 

Now as for my opinion on this matter, riven disposition based on popularity is okay in so long as DE constantly updates the riven dispositions. In the current situation, they are doing a horrible job which is resulting in huge influxes in riven prices for certain weapons, and causing massive weapon balance issues. Honestly, they should just keep it as simple as possible and try to relatively balance all the weapons between each other and not based on mastery rank, make all weapon dispositions around 2-3 and be done with it. 

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by (PS4)Raptor_T9X

[waynexx]

The Riven system is flawed and DE is aware of this; however, they're busy working on Fortuna and don't really give a S#&$ at the moment. All you can do is wait and hope they don't #*!% it up with whatever they come up with. That's really all there is to it.

[000l000]

Il y a 7 heures, (PS4)Raptor_T9X a dit :

 

Case is not solved. Again as always and I do not understand where people are getting this from, RIVEN DISPOSITION IS NEVER CALCULATED BASED ON MASTERY RANK. Riven disposition is all calculated based on weapon usage/popularity which is set by DE. Doing a quick search even provided information about this issue:

and from the warframe wikia:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Riven_Mods

Disposition

"The randomized attributes for Riven mods are affected by Disposition, a modifier provided by the system that collates the usage popularity of a given weapon across the entire player base. "

 

and finally from the lady herself from Dev Workshop: Weapons, Mastery Ranks, and Stats!

However in the same Dev workshop thread, it does state that mastery rank for a weapon is based on their stats and overall DPS:

 

Now as for my opinion on this matter, riven disposition based on popularity is okay in so long as DE constantly updates the riven dispositions. In the current situation, they are doing a horrible job which is resulting in huge influxes in riven prices for certain weapons, and causing massive weapon balance issues. Honestly, they should just keep it as simple as possible and try to relatively balance all the weapons between each other and not based on mastery rank, make all weapon dispositions around 2-3 and be done with it. 

 

Bug fix and content always prevail upon balance issues. Sure riven disposition could easily be fixed especially prime versions but why people are complaining that much about that ? I mean you can kill stuff with Soma prime, you can also kill stuff with Gram prime so what's the problem ? Gram is way too powerful, Pyrana is way too powerful, Tiberon is way too powerful etc. People complain when things are too weak, now they complain when they're too strong - That's internet new religion.

It's only about hype chill out, it only concerns people who have rivens for this weapons and you know what, they're really niche rivens cause prices are going completely insane. But if you're going to criticize Warframe's economy stop talking about mastery ranks or power, only hype matters here, and people's stupidity cause the only reason prices are so high in this game is because some smart and lazy ones are making virtual money out of it. Why do you think that Loki or Nova prime prices are so high, not because they're so damn mandatory or popular but because many players spend whole days buying them at the lowest price and selling them the other day at the higher, period.

Economy is broken because of players (the one who makes money out of it and the naive ones who keep buying their expensive stuff), not balance or anything else.

Edited October 12, 2018 by 000l000

[Orakan]

You realy didn't get idea of the topic don't you ? Disposition shound't be based popularity instead of it should be based of the power of the weapon that is the idea.

[Damocles]

On 2018-10-01 at 8:24 AM, Orakan said:

Gram prime is the most stong melee weapon in the game and it has 5 riven disposition, while soma has only 1 disposition and you can barely kill top level enemies (120+ heavy gunners or bombars/napalms) with using nearly half of your clip. I know riven disposition depending on the popularity of the weapon and this is bringing the variety to the game but riven disposition 1 should only be for real top tier weapons  like Gram Prime, which kill everything in its path without breaking a sweat. Soma prime can be bested from prisma grakata easly because of the riven disposition . So please give soma a higher disposition cause it literarly is a mid level weapon right now, even with a kinda decent rivens. And please reconsiders some other weapons to

I'd like to point out this is the first suggestion I've seen where they didn't say nerf the strong to match the weak.

That said, I believe the popularity of rivens shouldn't indicate what riven dispositions they should be. There's a lot of market controversy about changing them and the best solution is to set all dispositions to 5. The reason being is that having low dispositions make the riven worthless compared the value of the slot wasted. The only dispositions worth using are 3+. And because the stats obtainable or proportional additives to the stats rather than multiplicative nor indicative of base stats, dispositions will not make weaker weapons better.

Example melee of, +160% critical chance riven for 10% base critical chance sword will only be +16% total critical chance, whereas a low disposition riven of +60% critical chance for a 32% base critical chance sword is +19.2% critical chance. As a student specializing in 3rd year computer science, the product of 2 numbers are optimal when they're both relatively significant. Ex. 1(base) times 1000(riven) is a 1000(output) whereas 501(base) times 500(riven) is 25500(output).That is why the only way to truly balance out the weapons is to set all riven dispositions to a constant, and rework the base values of the weapons over time to match their progression placement, MR requirement, and difficulty for acquisition. Changing one number (the riven) will not solve the problem of what the final product becomes.

Now I understand DE may want players to use every weapon equally. But the problem is, everyone has a preference. I hate beam weapons, even though they're crazy over powered compared to all other hitscan and projectile alternatives. I still prefer hitscan, and no amount of power creep will make me choose beams. I don't believe that one can ever impose their beliefs onto others, and so I feel that the power creep notion imposed by riven dispositions should be taken away and substituted for an equal opportunity constant. I hope that makes sense.

[Naqel]

Riven mods were a mistake.

[Orakan]

Actually riven mods brings variety among weapons and bring diversity to builds. And because of them we can nearly use any weapon we wants. But if we slightly change the disposition mechanic weapons like soma won't suffer from consequences.

[Orakan]

Hmmm after all that attention to that topic , we passed a developer stream but appreantly comunity managment didn't notice the issues about dispositions or they allready aware of the situation and not acting or waiting for fotuna release to act.

[burem0n0]

Gram Prime is better than Plague Kripath zaw.

[Xolgys]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb burem0n0:

Gram Prime is better than Plague Kripath zaw.

that joke made my evening, thanks ❤️

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

I think its just been a long while since DE did their last disposition update. As you said, Soma only has a 1 disposition, while several newer weapons have 4-5 dispositions despite already having excellent base stats. Its rather strange as I actually never see anyone use a Soma anymore.

[Guest]

On 2018-10-01 at 6:42 AM, -VM-ROSKE said:

Gram prime is strong, but not the strongest Plague Kriptah Zaws are. Gram prime is a melee Soma prime a primary can't compare. Soma Prime is solid strong without a riven, Prisma grakata garbage, stop crying

Why is a puncture weapon better? What about plague keewar its slash which the tick scales with weapon damage mods and your combo system. 30% damage reduction is nothing when your slash hits for 700k just saying you might of made an error.

[burem0n0]

On 2018-10-30 at 9:28 PM, Xydeth said:

that joke made my evening, thanks ❤️

okay dude, stay ignorant

hope it works out for you ❤️