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Balanced Conclave, with reasons to play!


Xarteros
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The one good part of Conclave is Lunaro. It's not about what frame you bring, or what weapons you have, it's about how well you play. ALL Conclave should be about that. The suggestions are as follows:

  1. Remove ALL Warframe abilities.
    • When reduced to 0 health, make players enter Bleedout.
    • Reaching an enemy player in Bleedout lets you use a Warframe-themed finisher for bonus cool points (and extra score). Examples could include a fatal stomp from Rhino, a lightning strike from Volt, a fireball from Ember, Nekros punching your soul in the face etc.
    • Each finisher could have a custom animation if DE want to make it more awesome, but they should all take the same amount of time (and lock you in your animation) so that another enemy can interrupt your finisher if you weren't careful enough.
    • If it was necessary to retain powers for the fun to even be a factor, I'd say limit it to one single power per Warframe. I still think it would be imbalanced, and not have any real point to it.
  2. Balance all Warframe stats.
    • This could optionally be done in categories, so you might have 'Tank' Warframes like Rhino and Frost, with more armour and slower move speed, or 'Caster' Warframes who perform slightly faster finishers, and have faster run/parkour speeds.
    • Alternatively, if the Warframes are too diverse to categorise neatly enough, give all Warframes the exact same stats, like in Lunaro. FashionFrame is the endgame, after all.
  3. Limit all the weapons to Tenno weapons.
    • Split up the weapons into categories like: Shotgun, SMG, LMG, Sniper, Bow, Semi-Auto Rifle/Pistol, Full-Auto Rifle/Pistol, and each of the melee weapon classes
    • Only keep one of each main category of weapon. Once the weapons are in and balanced, consider branching out to more categories, such as Shotgun Pistols, Burst-Fire Rifles/Pistols, Duplex and Auto Shotguns etc
    • Re-balance the stats of each of these for Conclave, taking into account the re-balanced Warframe stats.
  4. Include Index as a mode
    • But PvP, obviously. This is much like how our current PvP is like Rathuum.
  5. Link Conclave into the main game, rather than keeping it so separate
    • Allow access to 1v1 duels in the Dojo to function the same as Conclave, and award appropriate points for fighting.
    • Add Lunaro rooms, larger dueling rooms (for larger team battles), as options in the Dojo, allowing for more Clan-focused matchmaking and more general fun (side bonus of making Dojos more lively)
    • Bring PvP Rathuum/Index to the star chart, letting players see active squads in queue to boost game population
    • Add small Lunaro arena to Cetus/Vallis for players to pass time until their open-world events are ready
  6. Add competitive team-battles to Conclave
    • Instead of being directly PvP, make competitions where two teams must struggle to out perform the other.
    • Could include competitive Sanctuary Onslaught, parkour races, rapidly scaling survival, speed runs of Spy vaults/Assassinations etc. Both teams would need to be faced with identical circumstances in order to be fair. Losing team gets points based on how close they were to their rival team.

Just some ideas I think would make Conclave less stacked, more populated, more fun (and more of a general pass-time), more accessible and more diverse. Don't like them? Post your own ideas on how to make the content more fun, or how to reduce the amount of constant work DE needs to put into it all.

Edited by Xarteros
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1. And if it just ends up one giant succession of knockdowns on a single area, how long would we have to be lying there bleeding out? Worse yet is if we're able to use our secondary to knock them down and make us both wait in bleedout...

2. I guess making all of the frames feel the same is okay? That really neuters versatility though and that's not going to be an attractive change...

3.a: This relies pretty hard on effective balancing and the PvP dev team, bless their hearts, haven't got it down exactly quite yet. I get they're trying, but....

3.b: This doesn't help one major problem in weapon accessibility. I still need slots to use other weapons, still need to build those weapons, still need to wait for certain events for some weapons...in PvE it's generally OK, but PvP is much more about immediacy and emulation. If you get wrecked by someone using a sniper in a game, you'll want to use it, at which point you get an idea the kind of skill it requires and what it's strengths and weaknesses are. The faster players can emulate, the better the gameplay.

4 and 6. Adding a mode for the current size of the playerbase is going to do one of three things, either: it completely flops as everyone sticks to DM, it succeeds marginally and splits the extant playerbase, or it usurps DM and doesn't really do much. I feel they'd be smarter focusing on polishing a single mode and getting that particular one right first, then branching out once it garnishes a healthy playerbase.

5. See replies above: a lot of those ideas are going to split where people to go to get their PvP rocks off. Bringing it to the Starchart is the exception, but people have also been asking for server browsers and for a game with multiple modes, it's probably more effective. This is because it gives people all the info in one screen, instead of having to dart between Rathuum and Index (or whatever equivalent nodes one would use) to see if either node has PvP games.

As for:

1 hour ago, Xarteros said:

Post your own ideas on how to make the content more fun, or how to reduce the amount of constant work DE needs to put into it all.

I have two ideas.

1: DPS caps, calculated client-side based on their weapon (to minimize data transfer), so that weapons basically auto-balance no matter what you do to them. As far as I know, this is, mostly how DE balances existing weapons anyway, so it just automates that process and reduces workload with, maybe, only a handful of exceptional adjustments (rather than having to manually adjust every single one).

2. Something a tiny bit closer to a "proper" arena mode. One weapon from each category is loaded into the game. Everyone starts with a 50% damage Lato with unlimited reserve ammo and a pistol whip melee for default weaponry. All ammo pickups are replaced with a random weapon from the loaded pool. Running over these gives you the weapon for that slot and, if applicable, changes out your existing weapon in that slot. Melee is given a durability that decays on enemies hit. If ammo is depleted, it drops that weapon and auto-switches to the next available weapon, with the starting Lato as base. Energy pickups become Warframe power pickups (with the frame's icon + a number, 1-4), selected from a number of Warframes at random. Picking one up enables that ability in that particular slot (and replaces the existing ability there, like weapons), which is good for the same number of casts / same duration as though the frame had 100 energy. Weapon pickup locations have a chance of being replaced by a mod that gives a timed bonus: bronze = max overshields, silver = 200% damage buff, gold = 150% fire rate, reload, move speed. At that point, you could probably care a lot less about weapon balance since if something does happen to be broken, 1 it won't last for long and 2 anyone can grab it and 3 anything could be broken with the buffs. The only debatable part is whether Warframe stats would need to change with all that pandemonium.

Just like that, you fix the accessibility problem, make balance notably easier to accomplish (at minimum, you don't need to be as accurate - tie it with a well-crafted DPS cap and you pretty much don't need to do anything to add a weapon), keep just about all the skill ceiling tied to aiming and manoeuvrability with the added skill of versatility, yet give the ability for newbies to wreck things too (even if only on occasion).

I'd do something like that, at least. There's probably 18,000 nuanced details this description misses out but it's long enough as is.

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2 hours ago, Harper said:

...So, Gears of War?

Can't say, never played it. Not even sure which part you're referring to (although I'd guess the finishers or something?)
 

 

10 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

1. And if it just ends up one giant succession of knockdowns on a single area, how long would we have to be lying there bleeding out? Worse yet is if we're able to use our secondary to knock them down and make us both wait in bleedout...

2. I guess making all of the frames feel the same is okay? That really neuters versatility though and that's not going to be an attractive change...

3.a: This relies pretty hard on effective balancing and the PvP dev team, bless their hearts, haven't got it down exactly quite yet. I get they're trying, but....

3.b: This doesn't help one major problem in weapon accessibility. I still need slots to use other weapons, still need to build those weapons, still need to wait for certain events for some weapons...in PvE it's generally OK, but PvP is much more about immediacy and emulation. If you get wrecked by someone using a sniper in a game, you'll want to use it, at which point you get an idea the kind of skill it requires and what it's strengths and weaknesses are. The faster players can emulate, the better the gameplay.

4 and 6. Adding a mode for the current size of the playerbase is going to do one of three things, either: it completely flops as everyone sticks to DM, it succeeds marginally and splits the extant playerbase, or it usurps DM and doesn't really do much. I feel they'd be smarter focusing on polishing a single mode and getting that particular one right first, then branching out once it garnishes a healthy playerbase.

5. See replies above: a lot of those ideas are going to split where people to go to get their PvP rocks off. Bringing it to the Starchart is the exception, but people have also been asking for server browsers and for a game with multiple modes, it's probably more effective. This is because it gives people all the info in one screen, instead of having to dart between Rathuum and Index (or whatever equivalent nodes one would use) to see if either node has PvP games.

As for:

I have two ideas.

1: DPS caps, calculated client-side based on their weapon (to minimize data transfer), so that weapons basically auto-balance no matter what you do to them. As far as I know, this is, mostly how DE balances existing weapons anyway, so it just automates that process and reduces workload with, maybe, only a handful of exceptional adjustments (rather than having to manually adjust every single one).

2. Something a tiny bit closer to a "proper" arena mode. One weapon from each category is loaded into the game. Everyone starts with a 50% damage Lato with unlimited reserve ammo and a pistol whip melee for default weaponry. All ammo pickups are replaced with a random weapon from the loaded pool. Running over these gives you the weapon for that slot and, if applicable, changes out your existing weapon in that slot. Melee is given a durability that decays on enemies hit. If ammo is depleted, it drops that weapon and auto-switches to the next available weapon, with the starting Lato as base. Energy pickups become Warframe power pickups (with the frame's icon + a number, 1-4), selected from a number of Warframes at random. Picking one up enables that ability in that particular slot (and replaces the existing ability there, like weapons), which is good for the same number of casts / same duration as though the frame had 100 energy. Weapon pickup locations have a chance of being replaced by a mod that gives a timed bonus: bronze = max overshields, silver = 200% damage buff, gold = 150% fire rate, reload, move speed. At that point, you could probably care a lot less about weapon balance since if something does happen to be broken, 1 it won't last for long and 2 anyone can grab it and 3 anything could be broken with the buffs. The only debatable part is whether Warframe stats would need to change with all that pandemonium.

Just like that, you fix the accessibility problem, make balance notably easier to accomplish (at minimum, you don't need to be as accurate - tie it with a well-crafted DPS cap and you pretty much don't need to do anything to add a weapon), keep just about all the skill ceiling tied to aiming and manoeuvrability with the added skill of versatility, yet give the ability for newbies to wreck things too (even if only on occasion).

I'd do something like that, at least. There's probably 18,000 nuanced details this description misses out but it's long enough as is.

1) I feel that bleedout would be short, players would be immobile, and would not have secondary weapons. It would just be a narrow window for players to revive teammates (if they kill the enemy) or swoop in for the finisher on enemies. I definitely wouldn't want it to be a show-stopper.

2) Yes, it would make all the frames feel more or less the same, but I personally don't really see that as a problem. Lore-wise, Conclave is a way for us to train the use of our weapons, movement and teamwork so we can survive against the real enemies (That's the sort of stuff Teshin keeps spouting). I feel like it would be a good place for newer players to practice a bit of sword-and-gun play, as well as mastering the basics of parkour. That's assuming, of course, there's anywhere near enough of a population to allow MR-based matchmaking (or any other form of ranking system). The thing is, if Conclave is supposed to be the place to show you the ropes, why are all the abilities completely different to how they function in the main game? That's not showing you the ropes at all, that's just going to confuse new players, and completely contradicts the in-game theme of the Conclave.

3a) The biggest issue with balancing is Mods, and Conclave already deals with mods. The second biggest thing about balancing is Warframe abilities, which is exactly why I suggest they be removed in Conclave. Take away abilities as well as the lack of PvE mods, and it should be muuuuuch easier to balance the weaponry in Conclave. One really crucial thing I want to say is that no weapon should be an upgrade over another in Conclave, even if the weapon is a direct upgrade in PvE. The reason the weapons would be so limited is so each one is just about learning the style of weapon, for players to work out what they like the feel of.

3b) You can buy Warframes through Conclave standing, so they could always just add the chosen selection of Tenno weapons to the same standing store as well. That said, I feel like you shouldn't need slots at all for Conclave. If you have it unlocked in PvE, you can access it in PvP too, but there should be other ways of getting access to them. Perhaps you have access to a small selection to start with, but you can pick up other weapons mid-match (although that might feel a little Halo-ish), or maybe you can just select anything you want. It might even just be Conclave Rank based, so you can select from a group of weapons at each rank up, and each of those weapons is made available to you indefinitely. Depending on how diverse DE would want the weapons (like if they want ALL the Tenno weapons in there), perhaps you could opt to buy groups of weapons with standing (Like a Shotgun pack, a Rifle pack etc)

4/6) I completely agree with you, if the playerbase remains as small as it is currently. The goal to me would be to make it more accessible to all, and to be less imbalanced, and I feel like more players would play it (even just for the cosmetics). Having Dojo Lunaro and better Dueling rooms would generate a bit more interest, as more players would start realizing they have all this standing to spend. They might get a taste for the cosmetics (which are largely pretty cool), and it might trigger the 'Completionist' mindset for players to farm and try the Conclave weapon/frame mods. Bring back Dark Sector rail conflicts with the new PvP system, where it's all balanced, and suddenly you have an economy for PvP combat going, with incentive for players who don't normally partake.

I mean, if you want to 'raise PvP awareness', you could even create Duel Challenge emotes, for players to hash it out anywhere they go (taking damage from outside sources would have to cancel it, and return the players to pre-duel health). It might feel a little cliche, but how many players would totally have a duel in the end zone, waiting for a slow player? How many players would just randomly duel out on PoE, waiting for night cycle? It'd bridge the gap between PvP and PvE, and that's the sort of thing that would bring enough population to the game and let DE expand the game modes.

5) I'm all for having a list that shows how many players are in X game mode/node, if that would make it easier to find a match. If DE magically decides to change PvP, they could just slap that in as part of the change.

Also, further note, take a page from various games and make PvP queues universal, determining the map and/or game type by vote or randomisation. You never have to worry about not having enough players in one specific queue, since it just fills up a room as quickly as possible and people just play the game modes they're given (although allow players to select preferences, to determine matchmaking priority)

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

To your first idea, in Conclave there are no normal PvE mods, so everything basically just uses base stats (which DE tweak manually anyway)

To the second, I sort of don't mind the idea of a random arena like that, but I feel like it might be a little bit too chaotic to constitute any sort of learning experience for newer players. If you were to go about such an arena, I'd make it locked to completing TWW, so you enter as your Operator, activate a random Frame pad, and then enter your random weapon/power arena. That way, the requirement of TWW requires a player to be somewhat practiced with at least a few frames, and it wouldn't be quite so overwhelming. That said, I think it would just generate a bit too much chaos to have randomised powers from the entire pool of frames.

Perhaps if you could get powers, they would be rudimentary clones of Warframe powers with the thematic link removed (Bubble Shield of energy replaces Frost's Snowglobe, loses the chill effect, Energy Blast replaces Ember's Fireball, but just pure damage instead of fire damage). That way, as you say, noobs can enjoy the feeling of power, but without being so overwhelming.

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7 hours ago, Xarteros said:

-snips-

1. Okay, good. Sorry to be nitpicky but the details do make a difference over whether something's a good idea or not. Rather not be lying there bleeding for minutes at a time, y'see.

2. One, that you don't find it a problem doesn't mean others won't. Personally I feel that making it too simple makes it feel more like a downgraded version of PvE, and that's probably not the best image to have. Two, if Conclave is meant to teach newbies the basics (disclaimer: it really, really, really, really, really shouldn't) and changing the abilities is bad, I don't see how removing them outright is any better. That said, that just becomes a "tomayto-tomahto" thing: both miss that particular mark.

3a. Stares at Snipetron. Stares at other threadsYeah those other notes don't exactly negate my point either: they might not be the best wizards at balancing things, so that might not be the best thing to rely on... I get that is why you talk about removing abilities but we can't exactly remove weapons, too, so we'd need some kind of alternate solution - ideally.

3b. Buying things through standing has the exact same problem unless you throw weapons and whatnot at the bottom of the standing rung. The specifics aren't really a big deal IMO: as long as it lets players get and try others' weapons in a very timely fashion, then all's well. It's just a detail to consider when reworking Conclave, is all.

4/6. While I'm glad you agree, and I actually don't mind the idea of spontaneous sparring matches, I really, really have to get on your case for something: Completionists are a dangerous idea. Many of them feel like they have to play Conclave when it might be something they abhor. And/or they try to find ways to farm it (DE doesn't like that, neither does the competitive side). Being a competitive thing, Conclave should be the sort of thing people specifically want to play. Giving people chances to screw around (though this would have to be done carefully lest you end up splitting the playerbase) and more methods by which to get into Conclave is great, but you also don't want to pollute the waters with people who just aren't there for the actual gameplay.

---

On point 1: they adjust the base stats quite a lot. The idea of a DPS cap is just an automation tool to make life easier. (And something they could throw into PvE too so Rad procs don't lead to spontaneously lethal cases of lead poisoning from allies, cough-cough...).

On point 2: it'd be a subset of Warframes, not the entire roster. I don't even want to imagine the data load required for that. This could also be adjusted based on the recruit conditioning standard. Maybe WF ability powerups don't pop up until graduating from recruit conditioning so everyone can focus on the bread-and-butter gunplay.

As for the thematic link: eh, take it or leave it. I just figure it's easier to copy-paste animations and textures and gameplay designs than to design whole new assets. And as far as canon goes, I mean, Stalker uses other Warframe abilities, so it isn't like ability modularity isn't unheard of.

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6 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

-snip-

2) I know that my opinion is just an opinion, but I still stand by the point that Warframe abilities are designed for the normal flow of enemies, rather than very few, much more powerful foes (other Tenno). Forcing them to be adjusted to suit the fact is just needlessly complicated, and I still think it's holding Conclave back (not to mention taking time and effort that DE could be putting elsewhere). Very few people want to play Conclave when they launch into a match and get crushed by the meta that they either didn't know about or can't mimic/counter. I don't really support the notion that the Conclave is for newbies to train themselves up either, but that seems to be the theme DE gave to it. Regardless, it'd be more newbie-friendly if they didn't have to worry about abilities that they don't have access to or don't know how to use. Not to mention more newbie-friendly if it was more accessible and less imbalanced, since it'd have a bigger player base and thereby better matchmaking.

Taking a page from our talk on the arena idea, it would be less bad if DE had ability 'pickups' in the game. They could make a much more concise amount of abilities for players to find and use, and if they weren't limited to chosen Warframes, a new player would be on the same tactical footing as anyone else.

3a) I dug up some facts to put things in perspective here. In Conclave, according to the wiki, we have 56 available primaries, 49 secondaries, and 82 melee weapons. That's 187 weapons that DE needs to balance. No wonder there are so many weapons that slip through the cracks! As an exercise, I'm going to drill up a mock-up list of what sort of weapon roster I'm talking about instead.

  • Rifles: Braton, Burston, Latron, Baza, Soma, Boltor
  • Snipers: Vectis, Paris
  • Shotguns: Tigris, Strun, Boar
  • Pistols: Lato, Aksomati, Lex, Kunai, Bronco, Talons
  • Melee: Sparring, Polearm, Staff, Sword, Dual Daggers, Heavy Blade, Hammer, Glaive, Nikana, Tonfas

That there is 27 weapons that cover a large portion of the different combat styles/weapon types. Even if you slip in a few extra and round it up to 30, or 35, that's still compared to the current 187 that DE are trying to balance. Just a mere fraction of the amount of weapons requiring their attention, but it also means more players will be using each of the weapons, and there will be more concise reports of what is out of balance. If there are only 4-5 meta weapons, it's not hard for DE to skim the feedback and see which ones those are and tweak them.

Abilities are simply too varied and unique to try and balance neatly, but weapons are a much neater list of stats, with a much more predictable level of power.

3b) There's a heap of different things they could do. They could have a rotating weapon roster, that unlocks X number of weapons for everyone for the week. They could just make all weapons accessible to all players in Conclave from the get-go. They could give players one or two of each weapon category as a base amount, and then give more from each category on each Conclave rank-up. You could even make them as loot drops/rewards from completing matches (replaced by Conclave mods if the game detects you already own the weapon). I agree, it doesn't really matter all that much what they do, as long as the experience is conducive to new players and not too limiting.

4) I suppose completionists can be somewhat dangerous. I was sort of thinking that making the game easier to play normally would make people less inclined to have to exploit the system. As it stands, the few people who DO want to get 100% of the cosmetics tend to find metas, exploits, or just grind it out with a group of friends to get maximum standing. If it were a bit more enjoyable, had fewer exploits/metas, and was more available overall, I like to think that people would be more inclined to actually play the game for their rewards. I know that liking the idea doesn't make it true, but I've seen similar cases in other games. It can be a bit like premium currencies; if the currency is too expensive, players are more inclined to buy from illegal 3rd party vendors. Too much effort required to gain the reward is the key factor in players wanting to cheat the system.

On the notion of splitting the playerbase, I'd still like if there was a neater way for matchmaking. Perhaps the Conclave terminal in the Orbiter just lets you select what sort of battles you'd like to join, and lists you in the relevant queues. I don't think that players mucking about with sparring or Dojo Lunaro/Duels would really split the playerbase, because I feel that the people who would prefer those forms of PvP are the same sorts of people who dislike the format of the Conclave. I know I fall into that category; I'd much rather muck about with friends for small amounts of rewards than join hardcore leagues and grind everything out with maximum effort.

____________________________________________________

On Point 1, I suppose if weapons are simply too hard to balance (or as an assistant system to help DE figure out balance) they could make the damage cap. Their plan for Shield Gating might also help, so you can't just one-shot another player, no matter the weapon.

On Point 2, It'd definitely be nicer if it were just a select group of the more 'iconic' frames, rather than the entire roster. On the notion of Stalker using multiple abilities, I don't think Stalker really counts 😛 He's meant to be some Old-War Dax guard or something

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2 hours ago, Xarteros said:

-Notha snip-

2. If we were to go newbie-friendly it might be better to separate it via Recruit Conditioning. I do agree with the principle, but feel like there's surely a better way to fuss out Warframe abilities without completely removing them. Perhaps that's just my optimism.

3a. It's worth a shot to try going from bottom-to-top. I just suppose the idea of trying to balance 187 weapons looks impossible when there's only a few outliers that haven't been squashed (and, to give credit where credit is due, they've done a pretty good job balancing 187 weapons, even if it's not perfect).

3b. The only suggestion I agree with is making them drops, and even that's kind of questionable. The others just have a canyon of time to get a particular weapon. The sooner, the better, so why not front-load the weapons onto the first tier?

4. The point I was getting at was that we should be to make the mode good and fun first, and then put in rewards for the completionists. If it's not fun or only half-fun, we run the risk of enticing a bunch of people who don't really want to play, and they ruin what fun we manage to build. Effort is also a factor, albeit, and it's good you bring that up (even if I've not much to say on it other than "yeah you're probably right" lol)

5. I doubt the "muck-about" modes like spontaneous sparring would really split the playerbase (since it's literally something you do during PvE). But that's the sort of thing someone tempting fate would say. 😛

6. (Point 1) - The thing with shield gating is that it's not particularly fine in terms of accuracy when it comes to PvP balance because it accounts for damage-per-instance, not per-second. It's well enough for PvE (a discussion for another topic), but in PvP a couple of small number changes can make a gigantic difference, and something like shield gating doesn't usually get that microscopic. Not to mention that you'd probably end up with inconsistent effects on TTK: a low-damage high-fire-rate weapon won't be as affected since the damage lost to the gate is minimal, but a high-damage low-fire-rate weapon might end up neutered to Hades. So you might end up with an auto-rifle meta instead, and is that really better?

7. (Point 2) - Old-War Dax guard like Teshin mayhaps? ;3

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Warframe is all about diversity and picking the equipment you like best. Restricting these options or taking away the powers we have and love, might create balance but it severely diminishes the  fun. 

On 2018-10-05 at 6:04 AM, Xarteros said:

Include Index as a mode

  • But PvP, obviously. This is much like how our current PvP is like Rathuum.

If you mean, having an entry fee, then that mode will not really be played, because you lose things if you don't win.

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5 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

GaMxt6z.gif

2) Well, I'm still working under the notion that matchmaking will also help make it a newbie-friendly experience, but not having to worry about powers would make it much less overwhelming. I still think that the best DE can manage is a compromise of pre-set random powers that players pick up during matches. It gives them much more control over each power, and makes them much easier to balance. Much like my idea of cutting down the weapon selection, cutting the powers down to say, 10 different powers would make it much easier.

An alternate idea for incorporating a limited amount of abilities would be to give them old-school mod cards, like how abilities worked before DE integrated abilities by Warframe rank. I don't really like the idea, since I feel like if there IS a meta, it's going to be more prominent (since players aware of meta will always equip meta powers). Keeping them as random pickups like your arena suggestion would probably still be best, since it's the most fair and least prone to abuse.

3a) I haven't tested enough weapons to know how well they each perform in Conclave, but I'm sure DE do a good job with the number they have to tweak. I see a lot of constant tweaks, and I just think about how much easier it would be, as well as how much more balanced it could be, if there were more limited weapons.

3b) Don't forget one of my suggestions was to make them all accessible from the get-go 😛 TBH, I feel like they could just make all frames available too, since you're only really using them to 'train' according to Teshin. No reason there can't just be a surplus of public-use non-prime frames for players to Transfer to. Maybe Teshin is the one who gives us 3,500 credits when we sell a completed Warframe from our inventory? Musing aside, I'd lean more towards the idea of having everything in Conclave available to all players, all the time, but I'm just toying with ideas of unlock/progression if DE consider it to be a mandatory component.

4) Well, I completely agree that it should be more fun before they try and spread it out, but I feel like part of that fun will come from being fair, removing metas, and maybe giving us some time-waster minigames like a mini-Lunaro game at Cetus. People try a minigame might get a thirst for the real thing, and that brings the players in to populate new modes. Ultimately, I agree with you though, they should only add extra modes once the population has managed to grow a bit more.

 

1 hour ago, Oru5732 said:

Warframe is all about diversity and picking the equipment you like best. Restricting these options or taking away the powers we have and love, might create balance but it severely diminishes the  fun. 

If you mean, having an entry fee, then that mode will not really be played, because you lose things if you don't win.

Warframe is certainly about diversity, finding the right combinations of abilities, weapon styles, focus schools, tactics and mods that suits your personal playstyle. Can't agree with you more. Conclave is a whole different story, however. Warframe as a whole has been designed solely around the function of the existing maps and enemies, and isn't designed to handle PvP properly. Original dueling rooms in the Dojo were hilarious, since you basically died in one hit. The entire PvP system was tacked on, and it's simply far too high a cost in maintenance for something that so few people play, let alone enjoy. Due to the imbalanced nature of the system, it's widely considered to be un-fun, and I'd really love to see it made more fun.

Players inexperienced with the PvP metas, or how various Warframe abilities/stats have been changed for PvP, enter the Conclave just to be stomped all over by the few people who play Conclave regularly, and thus keep up with the exploits, metas, and ability changes. Basically the only exception is Lunaro, since it's a level playing field, but a lot of people I know (myself included) find the gamestyle to be somewhat clunky/unrefined, and not everyone finds it appealing. Some people just want a good ol' deathmatch, and they simply can't find that in Conclave with all the shenanigans. If I wasn't torn between 600 ping or an infinitely empty matchmaking lobby, I'd play Lunaro quite often, since it's entirely a game of skill, and feels like an actual competition.

I don't think Conclave is ever going to become popular in its current state, because there are simply too many things that slip through the cracks (reddit tells me that zaws are currently massively overpowered at the moment). Refining the list of available weapons (or powers, as discussed between Tyreaus and I in the comments above) does limit a player's choice, but the goal would be to cover a wide range of different options to ensure that more playstyles can be accommodated. Quite frankly, I think one of the most irksome things about the Conclave is getting a feel for your frames and weapons in PvE, just to have them feel different in PvP because of all the balancing and changes. Something needs to change in order to make Conclave worth playing for a larger portion of players, and it's just such a waste to have it stagnate whilst consuming constant amounts of DE's attention.

As to the note of Index, no. I'm not talking about an entry fee. I could have probably clarified that, but TBH I forgot about the fee/reward system. I'm only talking about a game mode where you collect Oro from killing members of the enemy team, but you have to cash them in at your base to score (with the same health cap penalties that apply for carrying multiple points). It's a pleasant hybrid of CTF and Deathmatch, and I feel like it would make a very welcome addition to the Conclave in general.


 

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49 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

Warframe is certainly about diversity, finding the right combinations of abilities, weapon styles, focus schools, tactics and mods that suits your personal playstyle. Can't agree with you more. Conclave is a whole different story, however. Warframe as a whole has been designed solely around the function of the existing maps and enemies, and isn't designed to handle PvP properly. Original dueling rooms in the Dojo were hilarious, since you basically died in one hit. The entire PvP system was tacked on, and it's simply far too high a cost in maintenance for something that so few people play, let alone enjoy. Due to the imbalanced nature of the system, it's widely considered to be un-fun, and I'd really love to see it made more fun.

Players inexperienced with the PvP metas, or how various Warframe abilities/stats have been changed for PvP, enter the Conclave just to be stomped all over by the few people who play Conclave regularly, and thus keep up with the exploits, metas, and ability changes. Basically the only exception is Lunaro, since it's a level playing field, but a lot of people I know (myself included) find the gamestyle to be somewhat clunky/unrefined, and not everyone finds it appealing. Some people just want a good ol' deathmatch, and they simply can't find that in Conclave with all the shenanigans. If I wasn't torn between 600 ping or an infinitely empty matchmaking lobby, I'd play Lunaro quite often, since it's entirely a game of skill, and feels like an actual competition.

I don't think Conclave is ever going to become popular in its current state, because there are simply too many things that slip through the cracks (reddit tells me that zaws are currently massively overpowered at the moment). Refining the list of available weapons (or powers, as discussed between Tyreaus and I in the comments above) does limit a player's choice, but the goal would be to cover a wide range of different options to ensure that more playstyles can be accommodated. Quite frankly, I think one of the most irksome things about the Conclave is getting a feel for your frames and weapons in PvE, just to have them feel different in PvP because of all the balancing and changes. Something needs to change in order to make Conclave worth playing for a larger portion of players, and it's just such a waste to have it stagnate whilst consuming constant amounts of DE's attention.

So you say that diversity is a core feature of Warframe, but balacing conclave requires to take this diversity away. If what you say is true, then conclave just shuldn't be part of Warframe, as it would be a totally diffrent game just with the same visuals and movements.

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15 hours ago, Oru5732 said:

So you say that diversity is a core feature of Warframe, but balacing conclave requires to take this diversity away. If what you say is true, then conclave just shuldn't be part of Warframe, as it would be a totally diffrent game just with the same visuals and movements.

Well, a lot of people already think that Conclave shouldn't be a part of Warframe. DE shoehorned it in with lore reasons, but it has always felt unhinged and uninteresting to the bulk of the playerbase.

In my view, the limitations I propose to be placed on Conclave are very similar to the limitations placed on players in Sortie missions, Mastery Tests, or Dojo Obstacle Courses. Each of those modes is considered to be the 'challenging' option, designed to shake up the norm, limit our options, and force us to adapt and survive. Whilst they haven't been quite as effective as DE might have otherwise hoped (since there are still ways to exploit/cheat the system and make it easy in most cases), they DO succeed in forcing players to generally rise to the occasion and step up their playstyle a bit. Even if it's just a matter of making it harder for 'lazy play' to succeed.

That's why I don't feel like a lower-diversity Conclave is a bad idea. Couple this with the fact that the major reason each weapon feels somewhat unique is in its performance once modded. Since Conclave already takes the majority of those mods away, there isn't really that much difference. I go into Conclave and one sniper feels much the same as another. One assault rifle doesn't really feel different to another. Without mods, they just sort of feel more like fashion choices for me.

I feel like Conclave would be more welcoming if it was just a fair-challenge combat system, where everyone is on equal ground and it all boils down to player skill. I still stand by my liking of Lunaro, and as I said above; I'd play it a lot more if it wasn't a choice between 600 ping for joining American/European servers, or sitting in an empty lobby with no hope of a full match. I'd personally love all the Conclave game modes if they were balanced and not based on metas that fall through the cracks, and exploits that people have worked out.

The best thing about my idea:

DE can just implement a power-free, limited weapon version of Conclave matches as a temporary optional gametype. They've introduced temporary gametypes before for events, and they could just see how it works out for themselves. The biggest reason for why so many people kicked up a stink for the last PvP event is because they tried to join in (mostly begrudgingly) and found themselves overwhelmed by the number of changes, limitations and unpredictable exploits they ran into. Old beloved powers were completely replaced, or massively different in function and none of their weapons felt like they had the same 'kick' as usual. Take that jarring experience away, and it just becomes a game of skill. There would still be complaints, but I would expect a huge degree less, and there would probably be a lot more players keen on trying the Conclave experience.

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These changes look pretty severe, and as a person who does not play much Conclave, I definitely cannot speak as an expert on the mode, but I do think the reasoning is a good one, even if it may not be pleasant to all. It's pretty common knowledge at this point that Conclave has some problems, chief among them being that the mode as a whole is an adaptation of PvE-oriented content that was absolutely not designed with PvP in mind. Porting the rest of Warframe into Conclave has not worked out well, not simply because its content isn't made for PvP, but also because it's essentially impossible to balance so much content to the standards of a PvP game mode, when the developers have no real interest in devoting much work at all to it. Diversity and variety are good, but they are both luxuries that Conclave has trouble affording. It may therefore be better to take an approach closer to Lunaro, and put players on a perfectly level, self-contained playing field.

With this in mind, I feel the above could be streamlined even further: you could, for example, limit all available weaponry to the Lato and Skana, and eliminate mods, so that the playing field would be perfectly equalized at all times. If it were possible and desirable to add more weapons, then that could happen, but starting from the bare minimum would create a perfectly balanced environment. Similarly, having players in bleedout may not be a necessary mechanic in itself either. Simply giving all players the exact same amount of base stats, the same weapons, and no mods or powers, could be the start to a mode that'd have no balancing problems. There would likely still be other issues (bullet-jumping does not mesh well with Conclave for most players, games are laggy, etc.), but assuming those get fixed, this could be a test of Conclave's worth: if a perfectly balanced, minimum viable product is enough to draw sufficient player interest (and so assuming DE properly advertizes these Conclave changes), then it should deserve to stay, and get expanded upon from this clean slate. If it doesn't... well, that's a topic for another thread.

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12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

-snip-

I think cutting it back too much to start with would be a bit of an issue in its own right. Just limiting it to Lato and Skana would make the overall experience feel very boring and confined.

That said, I would not be against an expanding approach; starting off with a more limited selection to ensure proper balance, and adding in more to flesh out the sub-categories a bit more as it develops.

DE could release this as a long-running event, with non-unique rewards (stuff that people can farm elsewhere if they REALLY don't want to PvP, but still nice rewards, like a chance at Rivens). The first week could function with just Lato and Skana, maybe Braton (oooooooold school combo) as a 'challenge' battle. The next week, DE could release an extra weapon per slot for variation, either unlocking them in the Conclave arsenal for that game mode, or incorporating them as pickups throughout the match (Tyreaus suggested this sort of weapon pickup system in his similar thread). Each week, they continue this until they reach a healthy amount of options, and then rake in all their data and see how things fared.

I still wouldn't mind having Dojo Lunaro and bigger dueling rooms first though, just to make people think a little bit more positively towards trying PvP gameplay

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hace 1 hora, Xarteros dijo:

I would not be against an expanding approach; starting off with a more limited selection to ensure proper balance, and adding in more to flesh out the sub-categories a bit more as it develops.

It's really fun to see this claim since this is exactly what DE did when conclave got reworked to become a balanced environment and [DE]Joebuck (not sure if anyone else helped him) did a really good job at this since conclave used to be really well balanced... until PoE hit with the addition of zaws and the sniper rebalance, and balance then got screwed further with PvE weapon rebalances which removed the balancing factor on some weapons (mostly giving them bigger mags, reduced recoil, better accuracy, etc. while keeping dps nearly unchanged). 

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40 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

It's really fun to see this claim since this is exactly what DE did when conclave got reworked to become a balanced environment and [DE]Joebuck (not sure if anyone else helped him) did a really good job at this since conclave used to be really well balanced... until PoE hit with the addition of zaws and the sniper rebalance, and balance then got screwed further with PvE weapon rebalances which removed the balancing factor on some weapons (mostly giving them bigger mags, reduced recoil, better accuracy, etc. while keeping dps nearly unchanged). 

Hmm, I've only ever played Conclave intermittently, mostly because of the choice of 400+ ping or an empty lobby. So, I must have missed that phase of Conclave.

It's good to see the system works though! If they were to do it again, following the ideas I've proposed, they wouldn't have nearly as much work since there would be just the small selection of Tenno weapons to focus on. They'd never have to bother trying to include new weapons like Zaws (or the upcoming Kitguns), and therefore never need to deal with resulting chaos when broken weapons slip under the radar. Limiting the weapon pool a bit also lets them keep a set function for the weapons. For example, if Snipers were to get reworked, it'd be much easier to keep the Conclave snipers from falling out of balance if there were only 1-2 of them to deal with.

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