About Conclave Standing, Syndicate reward prices and Daily Standing cap for new players

[Triplinster]

1) Introduction

I want to discuss a little bit about conclave standing gain and syndicate reward prices themselves. I am only concerned with the standing gain, conclave syndicate reward prices and daily cap here and nothing else. Other topics should be discussed in other posts.

Also, originally I planned to do testing and gather data to precisely show the standing gain amount of average players and stuff. But I haven't had the time or motivation to go that far. But this is what we know so far.
 

2) What we know about Standing gain 

All normal (non-challenge) standing gain in conclave is direct result of affinity gain. Like how you wear a sigil in PvE and get standing equal to a certain percentage of affinity gain.Similarly in PvP, you gain standing equal to 5% of affinity gain and Rank 0 (Mistral). This increases to 5.5% of affinity gain at Rank 5 (Typhoon). And this is affinity gain in PVP.


So to gain more affinity and hence standing, the best thing you can do is go for style kills and take your oros. Style kills are basically things like

Air Strike (You kill an enemy while you're in mid air)
Anti-Air Strike (You kill an enemy who was in mid air)
Headshots (Self explanatory)
Revenge, Domination, Multi kills, Streak end and etc etc.

So yea, pro tip. Kill things in mid air while you're in mid air. Adds a nice little bonus. But anyway.



3) Standing gain and me:

I have been playing current implementation of main pvp (Conclave 2.0, PvP 2.0-4.5, you get what I mean) since little after it's introduction around update 16.
Ever since I started till the day I reached Typhoon (Rank 5), I never bothered to look at the amount of standing gain I was getting.

Standing gain was a nice little bonus I got for doing what I like. And I most of the time maxed out my daily standing without realizing I've maxed it out.

But that was only because first, I actively played for fun and not for reward grind. And second, most players I encountered were in heavy disadvantage (lack of experience, lack of mechanical skill, basically they weren't very good at the game mode). So it was mostly one sided and in my favor.

Now I've been paying attention to my standing gain, and realized that in games which ended clearly in my favor (forgive me for I don't have precise numbers but only approximations) (30K/2-5D). I was getting around 4-6k standing for each of those games. That's around 4-5 games for me to max out my daily standing. Each game going anywhere from 6 to 9 minutes. Add that I think that number might be inflated by challenges (1-2k challenge variance).

I myself have no interest in higher standing gain or whatever. I've already obtained everything Teshin has to offer (except his dual nikanas) long long ago.


4) Standing gain and average players

(Highly varied approximations incoming) I'm certain that for the average player, that number is far smaller. That adds up to a lot of play time per day to max out daily standing. And if they're really here for the rewards and having a hard/bad time with matches very likely not in their favor. Then it'll add up to a lot of built up frustration along with highly extended play time required for maxing out daily standing.

That's... Almost like suffering and discouragement.

5) About reward systems

Reward systems (like the syndicate reward system we have) are designed to reward individuals or groups for their efforts input in a certain task/action. It's a motivation tool.

A good reward system is one that first, rewards the individual/group that's worth their effort input (Hence the work they do has realistic value, like material/financial gain, you get my point).

And second, that motivates and perpetuates the group or individual to continuously put the required effort and more. As in they are rewarded more for extra effort/efficiency they bring to the work.

This allows the individual/group to increase their output/effort and task efficiency closer to their limits. What I'm picturing is a reward system that is very well designed and effective.

One very attractive feature of this reward system would be, to grant bonus rewards for output levels that are above normal but according to the individual/group is within reach of the group/individual.

And the reason for that is, we humans normally are highly likely to do tasks/actions that we see are rewarding and have high probability of success. Sometimes we see some tasks/achievements as unreachable or uncomplete-able despite them clearly being achievable/complete-able by the group/individual.

Sort of what Vroom's theory of motivation says.

Vroom's formula
Force = valence * expectancy

Force = the strength of person's motivation
Valence = the strength of an individual's preference for an outcome
Expectancy = the probability of success.

6) Favorable Reward system design vs Unfavorable Reward system design

When people are well rewarded for tasks/actions that are clearly within their reach. If you were to draw it on a graph (output vs time, and work done in set times), their achievements and work done would significantly increase over set amount of times. And with upwards curving (accelerating) output levels.

That would be because they would constantly seek more and more rewards. They're perpetuated by motivation.

On the other hand, a poorly designed reward system would fail to perhaps even get any output from the individual. Because the individual would either find the output level unreachable, or have too little reward for the output levels required. 

An ok-ish level might keep the individual interested in achieving those targets/out put levels. But might not motivate the individual to reach their true potential for output.


7) How it applies to Conclave

I believe the reward system not only fails to reward the levels of effort put in by the average players. But the little gain is greatly overcome by the frustration from playing matches highly unfavorable for them and the long time required to achieve daily standing goal. The effort put in by the average players is not rightfully rewarded.

I think this has become the normal standard of effort/time required for the average players.

8-) (<-Stupid emojis) What should be done In my opinion

The reward system should at least be adjusted to match the efforts put in and the time spent. I think it should be more generous than that.

A) The standing gain should be increased (and in my opinion, increased significantly).

B) On top of that, I think the daily standing should be either fixed (To for example, 35k daily cap) (so Mr 0 to MR 30 have same standing limit) or have it at base 20k daily, and have it increase with MR from there. The reason for this is because PvP is a high mechanical skill demanding game mode. So new players (MR 0-6 etc) shouldn't be artificially bottle necked by the daily standing. It doesn't make much sense in PvP, since by main design it's not so much about gear but more about mechanical skill (reverse is true for PvE).

The current standing cap highly demotivates new (new to warframe) players who might be interested in PvP. And it is highly unfair if MR 0 reaches lets say, Rank 3 and is kicked out side of RC to play against players who may have reload while holster, mobility, and speed holster mods. Even if little, still at a disadvantage. There is no reason for this disadvantage to exist for new to warframe players.

Beside, PvP hasn't been a "main game mode" in PvE but as a "side game mode". It isn't affecting PvE progression much.

C) Depending on the level of easiness of standing gain. Also reduce the standing costs for useful in PvP mods. I noticed this while making this document on "recommended to not so recommended mod list for each rank) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yW-F1TBzfmFzYznq_RsLBmxlbsmOldAjrr4clen9QTA/edit

The standing costs of most of these mods seem too high


End

So those were my thoughts. I've heard complains about it from many players. But I haven't seen anyone actively talk about it. Instead they focus on other aspects of the game mode (which also may need a look). Let me know the flaws in my ideas, or if you have any thing to add or have suggestions.


TL:DR
Increase standing gain, increase daily standing limit for new to Warframe players. And reduce costs of rewards in the syndicate. All which reflects the effort put in by the average player.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Triplinster

[Okami_Amaterasu]

I like this idea. As someone who's not very good at conclave, grinding for the top syndicate rank and some of the skins has been the most stressful grind I've done in Warframe, and that says a lot when Cetus exists. At this point I'm done with public games and only play private matches.

[Aschnad]

I would also give standing for getting killed and/or completing a whole match. If a new player is getting in a match, where he stand no chance and loses the game with 0 to 25 he will gain nearly to  no standing at all. 

When I started playing conclave I had matches like this. And when I saw   9 standing for the hole match, it was even more frustrating.   

If someone endure such a round, he should at least get some standing. Else his frustrating will add up, when he starts seeing that he can´t even progress through the conclave syndicate.

I would give 50-100 standing for being killed (not suicide) and/or 1000-1500 for a complet match (starts from lobby screen till the end of the match)

[Triplinster]

5 hours ago, Aschnad said:

I would also give standing for getting killed and/or completing a whole match. If a new player is getting in a match, where he stand no chance and loses the game with 0 to 25 he will gain nearly to  no standing at all. 

When I started playing conclave I had matches like this. And when I saw   9 standing for the hole match, it was even more frustrating.   

If someone endure such a round, he should at least get some standing. Else his frustrating will add up, when he starts seeing that he can´t even progress through the conclave syndicate.

I would give 50-100 standing for being killed (not suicide) and/or 1000-1500 for a complet match (starts from lobby screen till the end of the match)

That's literally giving away standing for zero effort. In fact it's REWARDING failure.

50-100 per death is 1000-2000 standing for dying 20 times. And then add 1000-1500 for match completion.

I'm not opposed to increasing standing for match completion. But standing gain per death idea sounds absurd.

[Aschnad]

vor 53 Minuten schrieb Triplinster:

That's literally giving away standing for zero effort. In fact it's REWARDING failure.

50-100 per death is 1000-2000 standing for dying 20 times. And then add 1000-1500 for match completion.

I'm not opposed to increasing standing for match completion. But standing gain per death idea sounds absurd.

The standing on death was an idear. If it is to absurd it can be discarded. But I would at least give standing for completing a hole match. 

To make something clear. I dont need standing anymore. It was just an idear of giving a new player a bit more hope. And  maybe he will stay longer in conclave and not give it up after the first few matches.

[Triplinster]

19 minutes ago, Aschnad said:

The standing on death was an idear. If it is to absurd it can be discarded. But I would at least give standing for completing a hole match. 

To make something clear. I dont need standing anymore. It was just an idear of giving a new player a bit more hope. And  maybe he will stay longer in conclave and not give it up after the first few matches.

Yea it's fine. I think if standing boosts are significant, there might be no need for different way of measuring and rewarding effort. Other creative ideas are still welcome

Edited October 8, 2018 by Triplinster