Quality of Life and End game changes.

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

I posted this a few minutes ago and decided it could be a thread of its own. Its my idea of using content that we have already and building on it for a endgame purpose. I would like your feedback and constructive criticism of these ideas. 

Its not that DE is not working, but there is a struggle when you have reached a certain point in warframe to keep interest. They add content but dont flesh it out and just move on to the next thing.
1. Onslaught should have better rewards, I even suggested boss battles at high zones in ESO weekly not exactly specifying the bosses weakness or the zone they would be at,  giving rewards on completion. People top scoring on the weekly ESO score board should get rewards.
2. Sorties Rewards system is long over due for revision.
3. Kuva fortress is a complete waste outside of just recently with survival, more missions on those kuva fortress tileset should reward kuva.
4. Trials should definitely return eventually, revised of course. Adding or replacing them 2-4 times a year. Restricting it to only players with highest possible mastery rank.
5. Destiny 2 Gambit mode can be easily replicated for Warframe

Just from observation,  modes become dead in the water solely because the rewards are not rewarding.
Endgame Rewards in modes can be but not limited to, Primed mods, Arcanes, U-forma (for umbra polarity), vaulted Weapons/ Frames (might be parts), legendary cores.
Such rewards can be implemented in weekly ESO top scores, defeating weekly hidden ESO onslaught bosses and Trials, RNG will be involved of course so everyone's weekly reward may not be the same and for rewards you may not need can be sold in trade chat or given for ducats.

My thinking is that ESO is the bridge or slow grind used for players who want to get vaulted weapons to max there mastery rank making them eligible for end game content.
End game content such as revised Trials and new additions can give rewards like rare Arcanes, U-Forma, rarer primed mods and legendary cores.

Of course people can just buy stuff with money if they want, that has always been warframe but I know lots of friends who just love to take there time and grind. People completely ignore Top mastery ranks and getting other weapons to reach this goal simply because there is no reason to. Tell me what you guys think.

[(PSN)nating51]

Nice ideas, man. 

1. Great point here. Bosses or mini-bosses after a certain number of zones  would be a nice thing to do, if it'd have an interesting reward table.

2. I suggest to give a veiled riven as a unique reward from sorties. No joking. It would fix the trade chat a little bit.

3. Also agree. I love the kuva fortress tileset. It's pretty wasted for a single mission. And it would give another way to farm kuva. Not bad 

4. If not raids, at least something similar where you have to get good at doing something... something that gives you that kind of satisfaction after achieving something really tough to do (like the Soulsborne series, maybe?), regardless of the reward (which could be eventually really nice, of course). 

5. Haven't played d2 yet. I'll do in near future, maybe.

Edited October 8, 2018 by (PS4)nating51

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)nating51 said:

2. I suggest to give a veiled riven as a unique reward from sorties. No joking. It would fix the trade chat a little bit.

Did you mean unveiled? Interesting if so, that could change the dynamic a bit.

 

11 minutes ago, (PS4)nating51 said:

4. If not raids, at least something similar where you have to get good at doing something... something that gives you that kind of satisfaction after achieving something really tough to do (like the Soulsborne series, maybe?), regardless of the reward (which could be eventually really nice, of course). 

Exactly and keep it behind Maxed Mastery rank which is totally under utilized, that with meaningful rewards might just work. And you are right it doesnt have to be Trials but any endgame content added should use Mastery and top tier rewards as its selling point

Edited October 8, 2018 by (PS4)kfrancis902

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

1. if bosses were added in then would need to have no time limit as some bosses are too lengthy in fights due to there mechanics wanting to take as long as possible at times.
DE most likely will add in some other rewards as right now they put it in as a idea to have players test out an hopefully help refine, tho santaury onsualt needs more enemy spawning with better map spawning cause alot of the time people struggle cause of the lack of enemies around.

2. sortie reward system should be given a ceplhon or something where instead of getting the direct rewards you get like tokens that you can exchange for the loot you want. This makes it so players cant complain about oh i got so an so again today an give them a reason to keep doing sorties to buy the rewards they do want

3. KF is not too popular cause of  how god darn easy it is at times to get lose or just angry that you cant navigate through it cause of how of a complex maze it is.

4. Raids will make a come back but DE does need to get the ideas for how they work more flushed out an more openly shown so had more players wanting to do them as alot didn't even know they existed.
NO NO NO NO, limiting it to the highest mastery ranks possible is something DE should never do as handfuls of players don't want to MR grind or rank up as see it pointless an making a system where they are forced to do so would only upset them.

5.i don't care about Destiny so i know nothing of gambit mode as bungie wants to siphon out your money more than anything

[(PSN)nating51]

5 hours ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

NO NO NO NO, limiting it to the highest mastery ranks possible is something DE should never do as handfuls of players don't want to MR grind or rank up as see it pointless an making a system where they are forced to do so would only upset them.
 

Ok, I agree on that.

But I still miss something I can do in WF only for the clue of doing it ('cause it's *really* challenging and fun) and not only for the reward I can get at the end. Something similar to the abyss in Nioh, or Bloodborne chalice dungeon system or Muspelheim in God Of War. 

ESO, in that sense, is something that could have been the basis for this kind of contents, but instead it seems unfinished and, at the end of the day, pretty boring. Small maps, no bosses, no strategy involved: go with Saryn or Volt, kill everyone and you're done without any problem or difficulty through the 8 zones. Its reward table is bad, of course, but that's not the main issue as I think that gameplay, fun and satisfaction-at-doing-something has way more value (in the long term) than the reward you'll get (eg.: tridolon hunting can be fun...but when you've done with arcanes you need, what's the purpouse of doing that again and again?)

Edited October 8, 2018 by (PS4)nating51

[Lakais]

The problem I have with the concepts of "endgame" is that they are power-creep grinds that VERY quickly become boring, repetitive and abandoned. Especially if they don't have some unique reward to them like the old Trials, and that was a problem to it's own. 

[Veridian]

8 hours ago, (PS4)nating51 said:

2. I suggest to give a veiled riven as a unique reward from sorties. No joking. It would fix the trade chat a little bit.

I have a feeling that this will fix so many things.

 

[Makunogo]

none of your suggestions is endgame though...

and the QoL just sounds like "I do this but i want more from it" if im being totally honest.

if all of that stuff was implemented eventually all of those things also become worthless. its a cycle that all games face. 

Edit: i do agree that more kuva fortress nodes should have kuva in their reward pool. 

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Makunogo

[DreisterDino]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Makunogo:

none of your suggestions is endgame though...

Indeed, i pretty much only read "more rewards, more rewards, more rewards" in the suggestion, wont change anything.

Thats not "Endgame". If you want to understand where i am coming from, read the following topic:

Edit: The only thing i can agree with are the boss-stages in ESO which could make it more interesting.

But like nating51 already said, the gamemode would need some changes then (needs them anyway)

Edited October 8, 2018 by DreisterDino

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

4 hours ago, Lakais said:

The problem I have with the concepts of "endgame" is that they are power-creep grinds that VERY quickly become boring, repetitive and abandoned. Especially if they don't have some unique reward to them like the old Trials, and that was a problem to it's own. 

Correct the key is rewards that will be useful for future and existing content e.g building Mastery Rank to meet requirements for future Trials or other endgame options, U-Forma for Umbra Mods to make your frames more potent for the difficult endgame challenges. The trick is to create a loop which gets people coming back.

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

3 hours ago, Makunogo said:

none of your suggestions is endgame though...

Return of Trials is endgame and baring you from getting to content because of your Mastery rank, forces you to get every weapon/frame in the game to finally access Trials or any other endgame content. that is the definition of an endgame setup.

 

3 hours ago, Makunogo said:

if all of that stuff was implemented eventually all of those things also become worthless. its a cycle that all games face. 

You are correct here, you cant just flood people with all the good stuff or it would become worthless. However Warframes RNG takes care of that easily lol I have played Sorties almost everyday for a one year period and haven't gotten a single Legendary core, I have gotten 2 Shotgun rivens and Probably only 5 Orokin Reactors and we have over 30 warframes lol.

Keep in mind I suggested these be weekly rewards as well so the rewards are more meaningful yes but in far less amounts and you still face RNG, You can also hinder certain items like U-forma from being trade-able.etc.

 

Thank you very much for your input its just rough ideas that definitely need fleshing out.

[Makunogo]

what part of trials was mr locked?

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

2 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

Indeed, i pretty much only read "more rewards, more rewards, more rewards" in the suggestion, wont change anything.

 I sorry all you got was more rewards, more rewards only from this post but please read some of my replies its more that just getting good stuff its actually building towards accessing new content.

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

10 hours ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

1. if bosses were added in then would need to have no time limit as some bosses are too lengthy in fights due to there mechanics wanting to take as long as possible at times.

That is very simple to resolve honestly the bosses are in zones not specified so one week it could be zone 12 another week zone 18 but when you reach that hidden zone you have the option to enter portal and by pass boss or stay to have the boss battle ending the conventional ESO efficiency run.

Another option is freezing the efficiency meter and defeating the boss gives you a boost of efficiency to continue run.

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

6 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

what part of trials was mr locked?

This would be a revised version of trials adding new ones 2-4 times a year, and while new weapons and frames are launched raising maxed mastery everyone has to continue getting weapons frames etc to keep getting access to Trials and other End Game Content(This term is for future modes that can be added)

[Makunogo]

do you think DE would have enough time to update it that frequently while also working on new content and frames? I would prob assume not. they are not a big team. if we base it off their previous work when they introduce something they don't seem to change it much 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Makunogo

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

8 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

do you think DE would have enough time to update it that frequently while also working on new content and frames? I would prob assume not. they are not a big team. if we base it off their previous work when they introduce something they don't seem to change it much 

That is an entirely different discussion, and keep in mind this small team just outsourced to get there game on Nintendo switch and will be updating  an entirely new console continually for the much distant future.

My point is DE can make it happen if they want to. I think with the old Trials it was not widely used so based on that data they decided to invest there time elsewhere.

[Miser_able]

14 hours ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

 Restricting it to only players with highest possible mastery rank.

Mastery rank means nothing. 

14 hours ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

5. Destiny 2 Gambit mode can be easily replicated for Warframe

Warframe shouldn't copy other games to survive, they've done well enough on their own. 

14 hours ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

 U-forma (for umbra polarity)

DE already said no to this, umbra polarities are for umbra frames only. 

13 hours ago, (PS4)nating51 said:

Woops didn't mean to quote you, ignore this line. 

 

14 hours ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

.People completely ignore Top mastery ranks and getting other weapons to reach this goal simply because there is no reason to.

Forcing people to get high mastery to do certain content is not the way to go about it (imo). Imo they should expand the incentives list like perhaps adding more cosmetic slots for higher mastery (D, and E), or giving reward caches for mastery rank increases; similar to the new 50 day rewards being added to daily tribute. 

One of the biggest problems with trying to make endgame for Warframe is that fact that the game doesn't end. The endgame at one point in time is the midgame for a later point, then people are back to complaining about the lack of endgame. 

[(PSN)CL_Poloboyzz93]

Uhh no, DE doesn't need to rip off gambit mode, that'd just look bad. Let's try to remember that WF and D2 are in competition , gambit is INGENIOUS - Now let's see DE counter it with a competitive/clan oriented/endgame railjack

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

30 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

Forcing people to get high mastery to do certain content is not the way to go about it (imo). Imo they should expand the incentives list like perhaps adding more cosmetic slots for higher mastery (D, and E), or giving reward caches for mastery rank increases; similar to the new 50 day rewards being added to daily tribute. 

One of the biggest problems with trying to make endgame for Warframe is that fact that the game doesn't end. The endgame at one point in time is the midgame for a later point, then people are back to complaining about the lack of endgame. 

Good Day thanks for feedback, That is the definition of most End-game content, With my time in Warframe because DE wants to include everyone for all modes they are limited to how difficult the content can be. Elite Alerts were suggested to be in the hundred level at first but now it starts at 60. Sanctuary Onslaught has an easy mode, Trials are removed and Arcanes are on Plains so everyone has access. The reasons to stay are dwindled because you can get alot of the content midway through your play-through and in some instances you have access to it from the start.

 

37 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

Mastery rank means nothing.

Well they did a lot of weapon reworks and Mastery rank adjustments for weapons, so this is an unfair statement. Mastery rank affects Riven Mod access, trading options as of late Plains content also is affected by Mastery. This model has been in Warframe for quite some time and I dont see anything wrong with providing content for people who stick with the game and level most of its gear, frames etc. People dont do it because the reason is not there, It is not to alienate players but rather provide incentive to get to additional content.

 

Your thoughts on cosmetic slots is a great Idea actually, Warframe should try to provide content for players with varying tastes it cant be done right away obviously but it seems that the End-game aspect has been ignored for quite sometime. Correction not ignored but rather it feels like DE holds there punches to appease new players, which is understandable because of there business model.

you have given me an idea for another post as well.

thank you for your insight.

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Poloboyzz93 said:

Uhh no, DE doesn't need to rip off gambit mode, that'd just look bad. Let's try to remember that WF and D2 are in competition , gambit is INGENIOUS - Now let's see DE counter it with a competitive/clan oriented/endgame railjack 

Thank you for your Feedback my comment on Gambit mode is a bit misleading, I dont want DE to rip off Destiny 2 lol but lets be honest the PVP side of Warframe needs some help lol.

What Gambit shows is you can provide a PVP experience while hiding it behind PVE which is quite ingenious. Think about some of the pet projcts like Happy Zephyr and Frame Fighters It shouldnt be a complete rip off but you can be inspired by other content. With the lore, weapons and characters Warframe has it amazes me that a PVP mode doesnt hit off.

[(PSN)CL_Poloboyzz93]

1 minute ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

Thank you for your Feedback my comment on Gambit mode is a bit misleading, I dont want DE to rip off Destiny 2 lol but lets be honest the PVP side of Warframe needs some help lol.

What Gambit shows is you can provide a PVP experience while hiding it behind PVE which is quite ingenious. Think about some of the pet projcts like Happy Zephyr and Frame Fighters It shouldnt be a complete rip off but you can be inspired by other content. With the lore, weapons and characters Warframe has it amazes me that a PVP mode doesnt hit off.

That's no lie, Warframe PvP is terrible, but tbh most 3rd person PvP is terrible  (well i wont say terrible because games do definitely definitely pull it off) but 3rd person PvP will always be UNDER 1st pov PvP, due to the fact you can just stand behind a wall and pop up n cheese camera views, now add abilities & powerful ass weapons w/ mods,and a serious parkour system, its so cheesy... until a game proves otherwise, Im not sure how DE can really get people into this sorta PvP , i agree with the other points you made but not sure conclave will EVER Take off in a 3rd PoV co op game. Division just got lucky lol

[Lakais]

3 hours ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

Correct the key is rewards that will be useful for future and existing content e.g building Mastery Rank to meet requirements for future Trials or other endgame options, U-Forma for Umbra Mods to make your frames more potent for the difficult endgame challenges. The trick is to create a loop which gets people coming back.

The problem usually is with that loop being too dependent on granting power through simple + to stats. Arcanes in that regard have a great idea in that to get the benefit they provide, you need to actually do something. An added mechanic that only benefits those who are willing to go those few extra steps and do a little bit more then is necessary not just to get them but to use them. Granted, the really good ones don't really demand much from a player to activate (take damage to start healing or get armor) but the concept at base is there. 

I am VEHEMENTLY against giving us a forma for umbral mods. I don't think of them as being exclusive to a frame like an augment but more in line with Corrupted mods in that using them requires a sacrifice. Which is apt considering where those mods came from. 

I also don't believe in the argument that because this is a PvE game, the point of reigning in our power is wrong. If it was, we wouldn't be here as the game wouldn't have the sustainability. Once you reach that OP level of power, NO ONE will scale back voluntarily. And when the nerfs are implemented, people get upset. It's easier on both the Devs and the players if we never get to a point where that is needed. 

All this is just context to the point of we need to be careful about the nature and implications of what these rewards will enable us to do. If they are just ways to flatly increase power at little to no cost, then DE will be doing it wrong and the powder keg will be just that much bigger drier and the sparks just that much hotter. If the only option to make this kind of "hard endgame content"  viable is to put in exclusive, power creep rewards and thus replicate ALL the community problems of Trials just to appease tryhards, I'm sorry but I'd rather the entire concept be buried into a desert. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Lakais

[uxx0]

15 hours ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

1. Onslaught should have better rewards, I even suggested boss battles at high zones in ESO weekly not exactly specifying the bosses weakness or the zone they would be at,  giving rewards on completion. People top scoring on the weekly ESO score board should get rewards.

(E)SO is pretty much how survival missions should've been in the first place imo. It's kind of okay like it is now. Although its drops could use some tweaking.

15 hours ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

2. Sorties Rewards system is long over due for revision.

Sorties themselves should be revised. If Elite Alerts are supposed to be easier than Sorties then Sortie difficulty should be bumped up by a lot.

15 hours ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

3. Kuva fortress is a complete waste outside of just recently with survival, more missions on those kuva fortress tileset should reward kuva.

Scaling rewards would help. Didn't see any good reasoning against it yet.

15 hours ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

4. Trials should definitely return eventually, revised of course. Adding or replacing them 2-4 times a year. Restricting it to only players with highest possible mastery rank.

We were told Trials would return reworked. After all they were only temporarily removed, right?

15 hours ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

5. Destiny 2 Gambit mode can be easily replicated for Warframe

13 hours ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

5.i don't care about Destiny so i know nothing of gambit mode as bungie wants to siphon out your money more than anything

DE could learn a lot of Destiny 2. Base D2 sucks, but the extensions made it actually worth playing. I'd happily throw money at a game if it was a polished as D2 now. Warframe is nowhere near D2 in terms of challenging content. In fact I switched because there was nothing left to do in WF.

That being said I can't see Gambit having a place in WF, since everything PvP is simply unbalanced here.

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

22 minutes ago, Lakais said:

power creep rewards and thus replicate ALL the community problems of Trials just to appease tryhards, I'm sorry but I'd rather the entire concept be buried into a desert. 

Thanks for feedback you went from 0-100 real quick lol, your complaints are noted and I understand this being a problem.

 

26 minutes ago, Lakais said:

I am VEHEMENTLY against giving us a forma for umbral mods. I don't think of them as being exclusive to a frame like an augment but more in line with Corrupted mods in that using them requires a sacrifice. Which is apt considering where those mods came from. 

I also don't believe in the argument that because this is a PvE game, the point of reigning in our power is wrong. If it was, we wouldn't be here as the game wouldn't have the sustainability. Once you reach that OP level of power, NO ONE will scale back voluntarily. And when the nerfs are implemented, people get upset. It's easier on both the Devs and the players if we never get to a point where that is needed. 

U-forma was just a suggestion and not to be taken as a hard and fast rule, also the drop chance mixed with RNG was to be considered e.g I have played Sorties almost everyday for a year and haven't gotten a single Legendary Core making the item untrade-able as well could help. DE has already said no to this it was just an option to consider. I do think having challenging endgame content and providing rewards necessary to get through that content is a viable solution to Vets endgame content complaints.

Lets not throw away everything because of U-Forma etc, Balanced Arcanes as you spoke about could be an option as well as limiting certain Mods, Arcanes etc to Endgame content. Which is not far fetched as it has been done in Conclave.

Very good points thank you