Tanks dont exist in warframe and here's why.

[(XBOX)Ubern00ber88]

Hasn't been mentioned yet but Absorb on Nyx actually does increase you agro level.

[TheKazz91]

5 minutes ago, krc473 said:

I was listing what can draw aggro. Besides, why do we need tanks for bosses? Some bosses can be killed in five or less hits. You are taking the difficulty of an MMO boss and trying to stick that on WF's bosses. If your boss will take 10 mins to kill, a tank might be useful [MMO games]. If you boss is dead in three seconds, why do you need a tank? [Warframe]

• If DE gives us bosses that are actually hard, a "traditional" tank might be useful. Until then, there is very little point.

 

For level 200+ content, which you mention: surely the ability to draw fire from the random mob enemies is more useful than "can distract a boss".

Yes you are correct the real issue is that there is exactly 0 content that can actually be considered endgame and the relative power between the players and the AI is a kin to gods beating up toddlers for lunch money they are going to use to buy brass knuckles so they can beat up more toddlers harder. The thing is that the goal with this is to discuss systems that can be leveraged to effectively and fairly create the kind of end game content that is missing right now. Currently the easiest and fasted way would be something like my comment that I will quote below because apparently you missed it. 

3 hours ago, TheKazz91 said:

6) I agree that Solo together is good for pug matches and I think there are definitely ways to set this up so that you can have the PUG solo together style AND still provide the kind of team oriented harder content at the same time. We have two great examples of this (that I know of) that are in the game right now. The first is dragon keys and the second is the plague star event. The dragon keys when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it are just items you can carry to give your self a handicap so that you can access better/unique loot that you don't have access to other wise. And in plague star if you wanna run on easy mode that is totally fine don't stick any phylaxis or catalysts in the mixer. If you don't do that then it's easy peasy you run around for 10 minutes kill some infested and go home. But if you do want more of a challenge then you stick more items in to spawn more things and higher levels and get more rewards. If we can do that in plague star way not in regular missions? Just expand the drop tables and include loot with ridiculously low drop chances (like 0.0001%) and then add in some items that can be equipped (or possibly activated in game) like dragon keys to increase the difficulty or "summon" harder enemy types (not really harder but the Zanuka beacon is a example of this working in game right now) and when you have these items it alters the drop tables so now instead of a 0.0001% chance that item has a 5% drop chance if all four players have these items equipped or the "summoned" enemy has unique loot that only drops off that summoned enemy. I think this would be a very easy and fair way to provide some real end game content. 

Just because the bosses in the game currently are quite simply pathetic doesn't mean they couldn't be better and actually worth giving them the time of day to the point that a system for actually influencing where the damage is being direct is important. Personally I think that the biggest weak point of the game play in warframe is that there is basically no interaction with the enemy other that make it die faster and make sure it doesn't interact with you at all.  

[MechaKnight]

Tanks don't exist because gigantic crowd-control options do. As Warframe's usual gameplay currently is you'd only want tanks when you're surrounded by extremely durable enemies you can't stun or incapacitate, since we can disable or kill enemies long before they reach us. Since newer frame abilities and augments can make teammates invisible, we especially can't justify tanks unless these abilities were to somehow become permanently disabled too.

As much as I like conventional tank gameplay, crowd control and player defense specialists rule supreme in this gameplay archetype where in other games the tank is the one who controls these challenges for their team.

Edited October 9, 2018 by MechaKnight

[Teridax68]

I think there's value in enabling taunts on some frames, weapons and mods (Chroma especially could use one), but I feel trying to make tanky frames more like classical tanks is a bad idea. Warframe isn't some old-school MMO where the tank soaks up damage for the whole team and protects the squishy healer and DPS, Warframe is a game where any single warframe is expected to be able to fend for themselves, including at high levels. Durability in this respect is basically just one out of many ways of achieving this, and at this point we have so many abilities that add survivability that many frames qualify as "tanks" despite otherwise not fitting the bill: Gara, Mesa, and Trinity are but a few among many other frames that can become incredibly durable (Trinity is technically the best tank in the game), even though that's not really their niche. On top of this, parkour is generally held as a commonly available means for any frame to avoid most of the damage directed at them, so tanking in warframe shouldn't be about aggro management (at least, not all the time), but about using that tankiness to alter one's personal playstyle. Ideally, players shouldn't have to expect survivability effects on their frame just to be able to scale into high-level content either, but that's probably a different subject matter.

[TheKazz91]

@MechaKnight

So we dont need fanks because every group should have an octavia? Is that the arguement? I am confused as to what team invisibility as to do with this topic. I will give you something I've already stated multiple times here that the time to kill any enemy in warframe is so low that there isnt much point it having any sort of tanking abilities though I would love to see this changed with new enemy types that are basically mini-bosses (or mega bosses by the standards set in assassination missions) that get thrown in regularly that actually take a minute or two to take down. Kinda like how stalker or vor both show up from time to time but make them not fight like children.

@Teridax68

The problem is that not every frame has a 90% damage reduction, effectively infinite health regen, or wide area hard CC or the ability to kill everything before it gets in the same room as them. At the current time the best stand in for end game level difficulty is hanging out in survival for 2-3+ hours until you are getting 150+ enemies and there are more than a dozen frames that simply cant function at that level of content because they dont have these tools to keep them selves alive. They could do more than enough DPS to handle this level of content but that doesnt matter because you do 0 DPS if you just get 1-2 shot constantly. This is more what this idea is targeted at. Instead of basically reauiring every frame to have some rediculous ability that effectively makes then immune to death in anything below level 200+ content, make some true glass cannon frames that can actually rely on their team mates to help keep them alive by soaking most of the damage. 

Take Mesa for example. Mesa is a great frame because of her 3rd ability which is a 95% DR. Ever played a sortie with a Mesa that doesnt know this? They I have they spent most of the mission second mission laying on the ground. I told them their 3 makes them basically unkillable and boom like magic they didnt drop once on the 3rd mission. The problem with this? Mesa by any sort of conventional standards has no business having a minute long 95% DR. She is one of the very few frames that can pop index targets with relative ease well into the 3rd or 4th rounds when most other frames and weapons can even drop the enemies' shields. She has no business also taking onky 5% damage. If we are going to give Mesa that ability we might was well give all warframes that ability or just make enemies deal 5% of their current damage and give all the frames that already have that some stupid insane DPS (which admittedly many of the top frames allready have both of those things) at least from a general design and having some minuscule amount of equity of power between all the frames and making them all equally valid choices. The problem with this is that it just makes the game too easy. And the game is too easy for about half the frames that can keep them selves alive and deal huge amounts of damage and CC huge mobs of enemies  and it is significantly harder for the other half of the frames that can't do those things which are often the ones people are calling out to get reworks for. If gets back to this philosophy of Solo together the game really is designed for one player 90% of the time but then is played with 4 people and it doesnt scale in difficulty at all when more than one player joins a match. Nothing is made or balanced for four fully built compitent players working together and it is more difficult to get the game where content is balenced for that when there are not systems in place to support team members unless every frame can do all the things and if you're going to make every frame super tanky with crazy damage potential then what is the point of having 36 frames? 

Some people like playing squishy glass cannons but if those aren't viable in real end game content because they dont have enough built in tools to keep them selves alive and cant rely on team mates to keep them alive because there is no system built into the game to support that then they are obsolete and everyone whines about how that frame needs a rework. If DE is constantly reworking frames so they are all viable choices in the latest "end game" content they put out a year prior they cant focus on making new end game content. They will just get stuck in this cycle of reworks and power creep without actually adding any real challenging content with substance. 

Perhaps I should go edit my OP to explain the reason I am making this suggestion is to increase the variety of frames that could be considered viable for potential end game content with out needing to rework half the roster and make them all feel bland by giving all of them a 90% DR.

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, TheKazz91 said:

Some people like playing squishy glass cannons but if those aren't viable in real end game content because they dont have enough built in tools to keep them selves alive and cant rely on team mates to keep them alive because there is no system built into the game to support that then they are obsolete and everyone whines about how that frame needs a rework. If DE is constantly reworking frames so they are all viable choices in the latest "end game" content they put out a year prior they cant focus on making new end game content. They will just get stuck in this cycle of reworks and power creep without actually adding any real challenging content with substance. 

That's also the point I was trying to make at the end of my reply. I dislike the trend of requests that have popped up for giving frames damage reduction abilities (quite a few players are pushing for Ember to regain Overheat, for example), because ultimately they're addressing the symptom, rather than the problem: the real issue isn't that some frames lack survivability effects, but that it's considered practically mandatory for frames to have survivability effects in order to play at higher levels of difficulty. This, in turn, is largely a result of enemy scaling, which has their damage increase up to a point where it's virtually impossible to survive without defenses of some kind or invisibility. As such, I agree with you; the solution to this problem should be to tone down enemy scaling and nerf abusive frames as needed, not give every frame in the game some survivability effect (in fact, quite a few current frames could afford to lose theirs, Mesa included).

[TheKazz91]

Edited my OP to address some of the common replies that are coming up. 

[Guest]

The actual reason why there are no true tanks is because all frames have a lot of mobility tools. Most traditional MMO tanks aren't able to move themselves over vast distances using only the basic movement systems. Rhino, Inaros, Gara, they all are able to bullet jump and wall run, which allows you to really overcome enemy aiming at times, until hitscan becomes too damaging and you resort to cheese.

The core gameplay of WF is partially built around the mobility and use of it to avoid what is avoidable. In a way, there are warframe's better able to survive "getting hit",  but your job is to "not get hit". The advertised "ninjas play free" isn't exactly as far fetched as you think.

[TheKazz91]

 

8 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

The actual reason why there are no true tanks is because all frames have a lot of mobility tools. Most traditional MMO tanks aren't able to move themselves over vast distances using only the basic movement systems. Rhino, Inaros, Gara, they all are able to bullet jump and wall run, which allows you to really overcome enemy aiming at times, until hitscan becomes too damaging and you resort to cheese.

The core gameplay of WF is partially built around the mobility and use of it to avoid what is avoidable. In a way, there are warframe's better able to survive "getting hit",  but your job is to "not get hit". The advertised "ninjas play free" isn't exactly as far fetched as you think.

Not sure if this was made before or after reading the edit I made to my OP where I address the fact that by any other game's standard all warframes are DPS but that doesn't mean that tanking and healing/support roles can't exist in Warframe. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by TheKazz91

[Guest]

Just now, TheKazz91 said:

 

Not sure if this was made before or after reading the edit I made to my OP where I address the fact that by any other games standard all warframes are DPS but that doesn't mean that tanking and healing/support roles can't exist in Warframe. 

Support roles exist. Trinity, Nekros, Oberon, Loki, Limbo (to name a few). Team buffing, Healing, CC, Team damage mitigation are all support roles. It just so happens the supports can carry a big stick. It doesn't stop them from being a support and doesn't make them a DPS. An actual DPS is like Chroma or Ash.

Tanking is contrary to the design philosophy, which is based on mobility. Tanking would require one to draw aggro and stay in the thick of things, which is the gold standard for tanks in an MMO. Since the core gameplay of warframe is for you to keep away from the center of enemy mass, they of course didn't leave tanking as a thing.

[TheKazz91]

54 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Support roles exist. Trinity, Nekros, Oberon, Loki, Limbo (to name a few). Team buffing, Healing, CC, Team damage mitigation are all support roles. It just so happens the supports can carry a big stick. It doesn't stop them from being a support and doesn't make them a DPS. An actual DPS is like Chroma or Ash.

Tanking is contrary to the design philosophy, which is based on mobility. Tanking would require one to draw aggro and stay in the thick of things, which is the gold standard for tanks in an MMO. Since the core gameplay of warframe is for you to keep away from the center of enemy mass, they of course didn't leave tanking as a thing.

Not sure if you've ever spent much time on Inaros but this is most certainly NOT the case with him. Inaros carries a gun for one and only one reason: F nullifiers. Anything else you deal with it up close an personal with melee. You throw sand in their eyes and stab them in chest. level 250 bombard? sand in the eyes! Combus? Sand in the eyes! Bersa? Nox? Relay specters? Hordes of fodder units? SAND, IN, THE, EYES! he is literally always in the thick of things stabbing fools in the face not just because he can but because that is what he needs to be doing in order to be as hard to kill as he is. Rhino is another one that while yeah you can run around and dance like a fairy you could also literally just RP walk through the whole mission or literally what ever else you wanted to do. Need a sandwich to tide you over after 2 hours in the survival? that's cool slap some iron skin on on, get up go in the kitchen, and make your self a grilled cheese. Rhino will still be standing there when you get back if you do it right because it is actually possible to get up to over 1 million EHP on him if you know what you're doing. 

I also think you have a fundamental misconception of what a tank could be required to do. It seems like you have this idea that the only role of a tank is to sit in one spot and stare at the boss's over sided _ _ _ _ for 20 minutes. Not sure if you've done any raiding as a tank in World of Warcraft lately but that is far from what a tank actually does now days. (sure it is still part of it but there is so much more) When adds show up the tank has to go get their attention so they don't gank the healers. When the boss is going to shoot out some laser beam at the mirrors on the far wall that is going to nuke the rest of the raid the tank has to sprint over and intercept it. When you need to carry bombs over to X location and hold them while they explode to make sure they are doing what you want guess who gets to carry them. When there are orbs that fall from the sky and deal raid wide damage when they touch the ground OR they deal a ton of damage to 1 person who "catches" them the tank gets to run around and catch the orbs. These are just a few examples off the top of my head out of dozens of possible tasks and mechanics that require some one to be tanking damage while being mobile that have all been used in a raid in wow over the last 3 expansions. Admittedly, some of these mechanics are actually handled by the beefier ranged DPS like shamans or hunters which coincidentally are exactly what you are suggesting the tankier warframes are.

Now I don't care if you like WoW or not so pleas don't pull the "This game isn't WoW" card I already know that and if I wanted to play WoW right now that is where I'd be not sitting here on the forums making a suggestion to make Warframe better. but to say that there is literally any other game on the market right now that has more challenging and more satisfying Co-op PvE content that WoW is just ignorant. Granted it may not be everyone's cup of tea and I get that. Trying to get 20 people to even show up at the same time every week would be enough to make most people crazy and that's before all the squabbling over loot even starts. But there is no way you can possibly convince me that any game has more challenging PvE content that is more rewarding when you finally beat it than mythic raiding in wow. And that is entirely do to the fact that it is both incredibly difficult but also very fair and when you wipe you don't feel like it is because the game cheated or is broken in any way but because you could have done something better. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by TheKazz91

[000l000]

Le 08/10/2018 à 23:21, Scissorsmith a dit :

Well, lets look at what defines tanks. They protect teammates by somehow redirecting damage to themselves and thus protecting allies. There're very few ways to draw aggro in warframe, and the traditional "tank with my face" doesn't work with shots coming ftom all directions.

However, warframe does have tanks of sorts who fullfill the role of damage mitigation/redirection thus protecting allies. A tank does not have to be tanky, by the way, I remember some games where you could be a dodge-based tank.

So tanks in warframe - frost is definitely one. His snow globe provides a "shield" for allies that mitigates damage and protects them. Similar to a Reinhardt or Orisa in Overwatch for example. Other frames you could put in this category - gara for sure, possibly khora, though she's a bit of a hybrid, maybe limbo, though he's more of a utility character. Anyone who can "shield" allies I'd say, because indirect damage mitigation/concentration to one spot is sort of the point of tanks. The others I mentioned are give or take, but frost is definitely a true team tank in this game - combining both CC and shielding in his kit, like most tanks. Volt goes into the more untility focused slot I think, like Limbo. 

Tanking is only about soaking up damages, hence the name. Nothing else. Aggro or any kind of support has nothing to do with that, they're two separate things/mechanics - if they were the same they would share the same name.

[Axio.]

On 2018-10-09 at 1:45 PM, TheKazz91 said:

The problem is that not every frame has a 90% damage reduction, effectively infinite health regen, or wide area hard CC or the ability to kill everything before it gets in the same room as them. At the current time the best stand in for end game level difficulty is hanging out in survival for 2-3+ hours until you are getting 150+ enemies and there are more than a dozen frames that simply cant function at that level of content because they dont have these tools to keep them selves alive. They could do more than enough DPS to handle this level of content but that doesnt matter because you do 0 DPS if you just get 1-2 shot constantly. This is more what this idea is targeted at. Instead of basically reauiring every frame to have some rediculous ability that effectively makes then immune to death in anything below level 200+ content, make some true glass cannon frames that can actually rely on their team mates to help keep them alive by soaking most of the damage. 

I mean, DE has stated multiple times that they want Warframe's content to be "bite-sized," and so it would be remiss to mention any gameplay or mechanics or difficulties that frames might encounter after staying 20 waves in Defense, 20 minutes in Survival, 4 rotations in Interception, 4 rotations in Defection, 8 waves in Normal and Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, or 4-8 successful Excavations.

DE's content, i.e. Warframe, was designed with the mindset that every frame and player should be able to be achieve success. Their means to this end is to explicitly state that content experienced after these outlined "bite-sized" parameters would be entirely secondary to experiences that take place within said parameters. By that, I mean they don't care about frames and players being unable to cope past Rotation C of most missions, and it's easy to see why.

Not only would it cause balance issues (such as the ones you've brought to the table) that would need to be addressed, but it would also require a lot of new number crunching and tweaking, not to mention that it would throw the availability of the game into question. DE has stated that they want missions to last, at maximum, 20 minutes, which is why rewards reset after Rotation C. Changing the game for people who want to stay longer in those missions so that they have reason to stay would exclude people with relatively busy lives from the game. Obviously, excluding a portion of your player base equates to excluding a portion of your profits, and I doubt DE has forgotten all of those people who backed them, nor their situation that caused them to cry out for help way back when.

You will have people thinking to themselves "Man, I really want ______, but I don't know when I'll have enough time to try farming it... what else could I be doing with my time that would be as rewarding, but not as time consuming? Maybe there's another game that I can get into."

This isn't to say that there are no rewards for staying for long periods of time in missions. Endless Void Missions provide players who brave them exclusive bonuses to credits, resources, and affinity, a mechanic seen in exactly 0 other mission types. Not to mention that you also get refined relics every now and then. But this leads into the argument that Endless Void Missions probably aren't the endgame that DE wants, and that they can be discounted as a feature, more than a mechanic that would require balancing.

So the ending statement to this argument is that yes, certain frames are completely useless past certain points in endless missions. They were not designed to be viable at those times, though. Every Warframe and Weapon was designed to perform adequately within these "bite-sized" time limits for missions, and so it makes sense that you see exactly 0 balancing or tweaks for +20 minute content. There are no tanks in Warframe because the game was designed to not require tanks. That's all there is to it. Many people have asked DE to give players extra rewards for staying for extended periods of time in endless missions, but they were all either ignored or refused.

I hope this makes things clearer for you.

[TheKazz91]

@Axio.

So it is actually VERY ironic that you happen to post this reply today,,, You know the same day we got Arbitrations... These missions pretty much just invalidate your entire post... First your rotation C on a survival starts at 30 minutes and stays a C rotation indefinitely. So that is two of your points. You can also start getting 1-2 shot as soon as 10 minutes on squishier frames (and even not so squishy frames if you stop to type a message and let your link/bless drop on trinity). So there goes your point about it taking 2 hours to get to the level of difficulty that this would be helpful... And to address something I think I said quite explicitly in my edited post: I am using the example of a 2-3 hour survival as a STAND IN for endgame content and I do not personally consider it to be a true endgame so your whole argument about the game being designed for bite sized chunks is entirely moot. The end game content should be bite sided. If they do create some sort of "raid" type content in the future as real end game content some day they should basically function like sorties where you get a series of missions that must be completed in a certain order. It should not be a single 1-2 hour long instance but rather 6-10 instances that are each 5-20 minutes long that you complete over say a week. 

[Axio.]

22 minutes ago, TheKazz91 said:

@Axio.

So it is actually VERY ironic that you happen to post this reply today,,, You know the same day we got Arbitrations... These missions pretty much just invalidate your entire post... First your rotation C on a survival starts at 30 minutes and stays a C rotation indefinitely. So that is two of your points. You can also start getting 1-2 shot as soon as 10 minutes on squishier frames (and even not so squishy frames if you stop to type a message and let your link/bless drop on trinity). So there goes your point about it taking 2 hours to get to the level of difficulty that this would be helpful... And to address something I think I said quite explicitly in my edited post: I am using the example of a 2-3 hour survival as a STAND IN for endgame content and I do not personally consider it to be a true endgame so your whole argument about the game being designed for bite sized chunks is entirely moot. The end game content should be bite sided. If they do create some sort of "raid" type content in the future as real end game content some day they should basically function like sorties where you get a series of missions that must be completed in a certain order. It should not be a single 1-2 hour long instance but rather 6-10 instances that are each 5-20 minutes long that you complete over say a week. 

There is no "argument" regarding the game being designed to be "bite-sized." This is an inviolable fact, as evidenced by the game's design and dev testimony to the matter.

Secondly, a single exception to the norm does not invalidate any of the points I have made, since the rest of the mission types have remained the same. My theories still stand because they remain true for the majority of content in Warframe.

I don't know why you are so hostile and adamant about proving me wrong when all I was to you was polite and well-mannered. Instead of even considering my take on the issue, you are completely dismissive of me and the time I invested into my reply. The least you could do is be courteous by listening to what I have to say, and then offering an opportunity for discussion instead of trying to silence my input.

Despicable. Enjoy discourse with yourself.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Axio.

[TheKazz91]

2 minutes ago, Axio. said:

There is no "argument" regarding the game being designed to be "bite-sized." This is an inviolable fact, as evidenced by the game's design and dev testimony to the matter.

Secondly, a single exception to the norm does not invalidate any of the points I have made, since the rest of the mission types have remained the same. My theories still stand because they remain true for the majority of content in Warframe.

I don't know why you are so hostile and adamant about proving me wrong when all I was to you was polite and well-mannered. Instead of even considering my take on the issue, you are completely dismissive of me and the time I invested into my reply. The least you could do is be courteous by listening to what I have to say, offering an opportunity for discussion instead of trying to silence my input.

Despicable. Enjoy discourse with yourself.

My apologies that you felt I was hostile or dismissive. That was not my intent. 

I do feel that I have adequately acknowledged many of the points you brought up either in the first edit I made to my OP or in other posts I have made in this thread. I am fully aware that both Arbitrations and extended survivals are an outlier in terms of the vast majority of the content that is present in the game how ever they are also the best examples of end game content we have. I explicitly stated in my OP edit that this suggestion for a more developed and interactive system for managing Aggro/Threat is not something that I think is or should be required for 99% of the content we have access to right now. This is something that is intended for higher level endgame content to allow more flexibility in what frames are viable and to address what I feel is an oppressive requirement for a frame to have damage mitigation in order to be used for that high level endgame content. 

DE knows there is a serious lack of this endgame content and I'd expect to see more additions like Aribrations added in the next year or two especially with The New War update that was teased at tennocon. I think you can safely expect to see the average difficulty level of the content that get getting played most to increase dramatically over the next two years. Again this is the content that I am looking towards when making these suggestions and I think that is a key point that you are not recognizing. When you are point out how this is not needed for the content we have access to right now I do feel like you are missing the point entirely as these are not directed at that content in the slightest. 

[Maugre]

So basically we'll need to have a Warframe with 10,000 base HP and they're going to have to have a healer on them at all times for higher leveled missions?

[FireSegment]

On 2018-10-09 at 12:03 AM, TheKazz91 said:

They are not tanks because no warframe has the ability to taunt or other wise draw aggro. There is only 1 way to actually make things more likely to attack you specificly instead of your allies or the cryo pod or what ever else they are attacking and that is a melee mod that says you cant attack if you want to draw aggro

soo ... by your definition, Dijin's Fatal Atraction is the real "tank"? then that mean every frame can be a tank by equipping Dijin. Also, we have that Sword and Shield mod that taunting/argo enemy to attacking you when blocking (oh, and also Octavia's 1st skill)

 

[TheKazz91]

1 hour ago, Maugre said:

So basically we'll need to have a Warframe with 10,000 base HP and they're going to have to have a healer on them at all times for higher leveled missions?

Ummm this is actually the exact opposite if what I am suggesting here not sure how you got this? I literally stated that being able to take huge amounts of damage without dying shouldn't be a mandatory requirement for a frame to be considered a great choice for high level content so again I am not sure where you are getting this out of what I said at all. 

2 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

soo ... by your definition, Dijin's Fatal Atraction is the real "tank"? then that mean every frame can be a tank by equipping Dijin. Also, we have that Sword and Shield mod that taunting/argo enemy to attacking you when blocking (oh, and also Octavia's 1st skill)

 

So I am gonna say no... Fatal Attraction and the taunting melee mods are not adequate tanking tools because they do not conform to how Warframe is played. They have very limited area's of effect, and generally require you to drastically alter your play style in order to make use of them to the point of being a detriment to your team. Octavia's 1st ability is also not something that SHOULD be a tanking ability though I will give you that because there is no diversity in threat generation it does function that way in the current state of the game. Octavia's 1st ability is realistically intended to be a multi target DSP ability where it gets exponentially better for each enemy in range of it. It really shouldn't be considered a tanking ability but like I said in the current state of the game you're technically correct. 

[TheKazz91]

On 2018-10-08 at 11:11 AM, FreeWilliam said:

There's also damage redirection, which is a decent 'support the team' concept as well as an existing mod (admittedly only for one weapon)

Still, it'd be better if you didn't have to stop attacking, eh?

 

On 2018-10-08 at 11:13 AM, -QUILL_PETER- said:

Fatal flaw of both these mods: 12 meters and 15 meters. so they are basically effective within your vacuum range. Please tell me how often allies or enemies that are attacking your allies are within your vacuum range and that is how often these mods will be useful. Not to mention Ack&Brunt is a terrible melee weapon and this could be 60 meters and it still probably wouldn't be worth using.

Edited October 13, 2018 by TheKazz91

[-QUILL_PETER-]

5 hours ago, TheKazz91 said:

 

Fatal flaw of both these mods: 12 meters and 15 meters. so they are basically effective within your vacuum range. Please tell me how often allies or enemies that are attacking your allies are within your vacuum range and that is how often these mods will be useful. Not to mention Ack&Brunt is a terrible melee weapon and this could be 60 meters and it still probably wouldn't be worth using.

Sooooo tanks should aggro and mitigate damage from indefinite range?

[Xzorn]

Actually, Nyx is a Tank by standards.

Nyx in Assimilate draws increased aggro over normal and enemies affected by her Chaos have increased threat levels. She actually does what tanks are supposed to do which is redirect damage or danger from allies. These are old mechanics when Warframe actually did have an Aggro system and might be gone when she's reworked.

One could argue Nidus because his maggots have increased threat but that's stretching it.

At any rate Threat is only one means of redirecting enemy damage. There are other abilities. The ones that actually spawned the concept of "Tank" which have nothing to do with aggro or threat management. If I recall the first Tank ever has an ability that redirected damage dealt to allies to themselves. That was the first official Tank from MUDs. Electromagnetic Shield mod does make an official Tank though not a very practical one in a game like Warframe.

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Xzorn

[TheKazz91]

4 hours ago, -QUILL_PETER- said:

Sooooo tanks should aggro and mitigate damage from indefinite range?

Indefinite? no but it should be an effective range 12-15 meters is basically nothing in Warframe that is less than an average bullet jump which we are doing near constantly. Around 30-40 meters would probably be about right for a base line though even this could be on the low side when we are talking about open air tile sets or even the new reworked Jupiter tile set. 

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

At any rate Threat is only one means of redirecting enemy damage. There are other abilities. The ones that actually spawned the concept of "Tank" which have nothing to do with aggro or threat management. If I recall the first Tank ever has an ability that redirected damage dealt to allies to themselves. That was the first official Tank from MUDs. Electromagnetic Shield mod does make an official Tank though not a very practical one in a game like Warframe.

Yes being able to redirect damage taken onto yourself is definitely a tanking ability However it is a pretty ineffective form of tanking. This is because you as the tank cannot manage your damage intake. If there is some amount of avoidable damage coming in or if there is an unavoidable damage spike if those things are targeting you then you can either A. avoid that damage or B. Actively mitigate that damage. If you are just soaking damage dealt to other players then they may be standing in napalm fire or some head butting bombard rockets that they could be dodging but because they are not the ones actually taking the damage they just don't think it matters. I don't think a tank should make it so that other players don't have to put effort or thought into surviving but rather than if they are putting some thought into staying alive that it is significantly less likely that they will be instagibbed in more difficult content. 

[TheKazz91]

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Actually, Nyx is a Tank by standards.

Nyx in Assimilate draws increased aggro over normal and enemies affected by her Chaos have increased threat levels. She actually does what tanks are supposed to do which is redirect damage or danger from allies. These are old mechanics when Warframe actually did have an Aggro system and might be gone when she's reworked.

 

On 2018-10-08 at 11:56 PM, (XB1)Ubern00ber88 said:

Hasn't been mentioned yet but Absorb on Nyx actually does increase you agro level.

and @Axio. With the picture of Nyx crying:

I have kinda neglected this Nyx argument so I am gonna explain why the first being A. I have never played Nyx so I am not sure how her absorb/assimilate feels. B. one of the guys I play with does actually play Nyx and I honestly don't feel like there is much of a difference between the amount of damage I take while he's no nxy compared to any other time I am playing the game. C. We really don't have any information on how much increased threat she generates while absorb is up. D. She likely can't keep absorb up all the time without a Trinity to provide energy in the party. E. unless absorb is up she doesn't want enemies looking and shooting at her because she only has 15 armor and 100 base health and shields which as far as base line stats go this is about as squishy as the come. 

[Axio.]

27 minutes ago, TheKazz91 said:

 

and @Axio. With the picture of Nyx crying:

I have kinda neglected this Nyx argument so I am gonna explain why the first being A. I have never played Nyx so I am not sure how her absorb/assimilate feels. B. one of the guys I play with does actually play Nyx and I honestly don't feel like there is much of a difference between the amount of damage I take while he's no nxy compared to any other time I am playing the game. C. We really don't have any information on how much increased threat she generates while absorb is up. D. She likely can't keep absorb up all the time without a Trinity to provide energy in the party. E. unless absorb is up she doesn't want enemies looking and shooting at her because she only has 15 armor and 100 base health and shields which as far as base line stats go this is about as squishy as the come. 

Absorb doesn't need to be up all the time, though. With Nyx's Chaos ability, she can run around and get energy while sowing confusion among the enemy ranks. Not to mention, enemies affected by Chaos are only going to be targeting you or your squadmates if you get too close to them, and enemies unaffected by Chaos are going to be targeting those that are. Meaning that so long as those enemies remain alive, you should have free reign of your surroundings.

Outside of the fact that there's no reason to build her for anything but efficiency and duration (maybe some range), there should be no problem with having energy, especially if you increase her maximum energy with a Primed Flow, and there is definitely no problem if you have the luxury of a Rank 3 Arcane Energize.

Not to mention, as enemies scale up, so does their damage, and Nyx's specialty is that old children's addage... "I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you." So her 4 can scale as hard as the enemies do, provided she has energy... And with 170% efficiency, Primed Flow, and a stockpile of pizzas, (a R3 Arcane Energize also doesn't hurt) it's really not that hard to see why and how Nyx is able to scale well, especially with her augment that allows her to move during Absorb.

Nyx is a very interesting frame with a unique playstyle, one that I hope is preserved when she is inevitably reworked. I am not going to argue that she doesn't need a rework, she most definitely does... Her 1 is basically a gimped, single-target version of her 3, and her 2 does negligible damage with its only redeeming quality being its radiation procs... which are absolutely useless when you take into account the functionality of her 3. I only use Nyx's 1 when there's an Ancient Disruptor or Ancient Healer that I want to have on my side... Which, incidentally, makes every frame much tankier due to the damage reduction auras they provide. Using your Mind Control wisely can help give your team an edge, I just wish that it wasn't outright dwarfed and made obsolete by Revenant's 1...

Edited October 13, 2018 by Axio.