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Why is Balance IN PVE a thing?


BloodArmoredApostle
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This is one thing I have been trying to understand for at least since closed beta. IS why DE is trying to balance the game in a PvE setting? Do you want players to feel powerful? What is the objective here DE? What is the objective in this game? The lore is like we are really powerful beings, but it is appearing as if DE has no direction to if they want that to be true or not. The game's draw was power creep, and I do not see how power creep in a PvE game is really that important. Balance the PvP stuff, I am fine with that, but your last focus should not be on a vague interpretation of what you created.

 

The community is a good community out of most from what I do understand, and have experienced in gaming for a good while now. My other problem, resides in the communities desire to manage players ability to have fun in the game. Truth of the matter is that if Warframe keeps going on this field trip of Balancing for PvE which really takes away from the game's entire theme. DE what is the point of playing the game? The lore is based on power, in gaming it is easy to place obstacles in front of the player. Yes, movement is power, and I applaud the movement system that has drastically improved from wall running/coptering to full on parkour. If these theme of being powerful is taken out or merely squashed because of all this PvE balancing DE there is nothing left, but a shell of a game. 

Take for instance mario, just an example, if you were to nerf jumping or firepower what would be the point in playing mario? The star is broken, the flower is broke the leaf is broken, but the game is fun and it is against PvE. I see no reason to be balancing around AI when DE can just create obstacles in front of the player that are bigger than the current. Why is this a thing?

 

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because a lack of balance is everybody using the same Equipment and the same Mods.

Mario Powerups are rare things you get only here and there at the discretion of the game/Developer, so your example doesn't make sense. it's a very limited thing there, rather than being infinite like most things in Warframe are.

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Nerf warriors are a common species as they cannot accept other forms of fun except their own narrow minded definition of what fun is. They want to slap their brand of fun on all humanity.

I believe that a founder who has 5 years in game should know this simple fact. 

If things are uncompetitive, buff the weaklings and the enemies, not nerf the strong stuff. Or slap on specific enemies. DE made nullifiers and noxes but they don't seem to be able to discard the heavy handed nerf mentality they do to please a vocal minority.

Edited by Guest
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The thing is that for quite a while DE didn't know if the game was about making players work hard for each kill or if it was about us being demigods mowing down hordes of incompetent enemies. The latter prevailed.

Most frames are very, very powerful. Most of the ones who feel underpowered atm are needing a rework, and are reminescent of times when the pacing of this game was much slower or the focus of the game was on crowd control rather than killing everyone with one punch. In other instances, some Warframes feel underpowered more because of clunky mechanics, like Revenant, who tbh should be a god among warframes.

Then there are frames like Saryn and Equinox who can kill everything they want in miliseconds. Saryn was even more OP after her (unnecessary) rework and all you could see in ESO was Saryn. Actually, it still is the same lol.

Edited by Nitro747
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3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

because a lack of balance is everybody using the same Equipment and the same Mods.

Mario Powerups are rare things you get only here and there at the discretion of the game/Developer, so your example doesn't make sense. it's a very limited thing there, rather than being infinite like most things in Warframe are.

Exactly the Devs can create obstacles scaling whatever they maybe, since games get updates now days this allows games to constantly progress. The Devs can care about what players use enmasse in general because that may take away from the game objective, but not entirely.

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13 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Nerf warriors are a common species as they cannot accept other forms of fun except their own narrow minded definition of what fun is. They want to slap their brand of fun on all humanity.

I believe that a founder who has 5 years in game should know this simple fact. 

If things are uncompetitive, buff the weaklings and the enemies, not nerf the strong stuff. Or slap on specific enemies. DE made nullifiers and noxes but they don't seem to be able to discard the heavy handed nerf mentality they do to please a vocal minority.

I was merely starting a discussion, not a smash and trash subject. I do apologize if you misunderstood my post. Hopefully, you understand what having dialog means, and discourse instead of resorting to plastering someone with (oh your a founder response) classic response.

Edited by BloodArmoredApostle
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23 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

If things are uncompetitive, buff the weaklings and the enemies, not nerf the strong stuff.

even though yno, usually it's a small sliver of the available choices that are exponentially stronger than all of the rest. the correct choice with such a ratio would be addressing the outlier(s). takes less Development Time and in this sort of theoretical scenario, things are only uncompetitive because of a new option made available that then made the others uncompetitive.

23 minutes ago, BloodArmoredApostle said:

Exactly the Devs can create obstacles scaling whatever they maybe

not really. infinity Stats means you can't create obstacles, only timers to stand around and wait for.
which is exactly why balance matters, because you can't have anything meaningful in a Video Game without it. infinity Stats means everything is irrelevant. infinity Stats means having nothing to do in the game(and creating content that is more than just a timer to wait for being impossible) because the actual Gameplay plays itself and requires nothing of the Player.

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3 minutes ago, BloodArmoredApostle said:

I was merely starting a discussion, not a smash and trash subject. I do apologize if you misunderstood my post.

I may use strong words, but if you want the "civil edition": Because a vocal minority feels that they have the rights to determine the direction of the game and keep badgering the devs over it if things do not go their way, even if it is artistically not what the devs wanted in the first place. An annoying but ever present fact.

You probably can see how annoyed I am at these "nerf warriors", because most of them appear only to desire nerfs only to pad their own stats or even moderate them, which are meaningless. Yes, stats are meaningless. 90% kills, 10 hour Mot or 200% accuracy doesn't make you a better person. However, some of these people feel that they are losing out the moment they get 10% damage done or are too powerful the moment they do 26% damage.

This is because of how many are innately competitive even over meaningless things that do not affect mission success. It is just human vanity dictating that everyone wants to be the "pro that carried the mission" or "we are all equal, YOU ARE NOT BETTER THAN ME". This leads to people trying to pull down everyone to their own level, rather than improving themselves, because ultimately improvement takes effort, while pulling down just invalidates the effort of others without affecting the self. Human esteem and pride is indeed a toxic object.

The warframe game is indeed built on the premise of "Demigod like Power". Of course, it is reasonable to start off not that powerful and only gain it over time much like any other game. The closest parallels to Warframe are in fact Musou Games like Dynasty Warriors AND ARPGs like Diablo (smaller extent). The presentation is a shooter, but this is only the surface and hardly what the core gameplay seems to suggest. The aim of the game really is just getting power to mash mooks, which makes you able to get better gear and skills to mash even bigger mooks and so on so forth. Warframe's core of ever higher levelled planets IS indeed a clear parallel to Musou and ARPG. Things like Battlefield and Call of Duty don't scale enemy HP based on levels or tiers, being constant.

The problem is that the "nerf warriors" keep branding Warframe as a team based tactical shooter which needs to have Dark Souls like difficulty due to a fundamental misinterpretation of what the game really is, due to only considering the surface presentation the game brings out over the actual core, which is closer to a fully PvE solo mass killing game. This creates their opinion on the game giving the player too much power. They fail to see that the shooter aspect is just one minor portion of Warframe. Yes, you can point and shoot, but that's just one thing you can do outside of pulling out a sword or casting a "spell". Gunplay is NOT the ultimate core of the game, just one branch of it.

Therin comes the problem. DE, in their good hearted (but ultimately futile) attempt to try and appease both sides, end up with a product that is confused and inadequate in some aspects, creating controversy. Due to both sides not being satisfied and making a lot of noise, Warframe's power scaling becomes something like a perpetual tug of war between both sides. The end result is that no one is satisfied and DE doesn't hit their artistic target either.

This is why threads like yours pop up.

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I think this post gives a pretty good explanation/example about balancing. Even though it's +5 years old, it still seems relevant.

Whether you nerf from the top down or buff from the bottom up, the end result is that the power gap gets flattened.

 

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4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

even though yno, usually it's a small sliver of the available choices that are exponentially stronger than all of the rest. the correct choice with such a ratio would be addressing the outlier(s). takes less Development Time and in this sort of theoretical scenario, things are only uncompetitive because of a new option made available that then made the others uncompetitive.

Before you consider such a simplistic view, take some time to think of "what is an outlier". Is it evidence something is too strong or a sign that the game itself is messed up? What are the circumstances that led to the creation of an outlier? If you do a scientific experiment and get an outlier, you do not just ignore it. You evaluate the experiment first before deciding to ignore/normalise it.

Takes less dev time, yes, but this isn't an example of good changes. It is an example of laziness, unwillingness to examine things and of course band aiding.

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2 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Takes less dev time, yes, but this isn't an example of good changes. It is an example of laziness, unwillingness to examine things and of course band aiding.

and 'increase the Stats of everything' isn't also exactly the same then?

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40 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

some people feel small in the pants when someone else gets more numbers at the ending screen. that is why some need balance

Woah woah careful now, Letter13 just might give you a warning for that truth bomb or two for me pointing it out. 

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Let me answer your question with a question. Do you want coop to be nothing but standing around as the person with the most powerful loadout nukes everything as it spawns?

To see why balance is needed. Look at pre nerf telos boltace, pre nerf synoid simulor, old tonkor, current maiming strike atterax, and pre nerf link nuke trinity

 

edit: forgot the "pre nerf" in front of "link nuke trinity" and it pissed some people off to the point of tirades over it. fixed.

Edited by --Laughing-Soul--
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so if DE added a frame that had a bit too much power and it was decently better than most other frames, the best option is to then modify all 30+ other frames, rather than just nerfing the one frame? and on top of that, every single piece of content in the game would become less challenging because every single Warframe became more powerful? That sounds far too complicated.

And if they left it as a single more powerful frame, then isn't that just wasting the extensive time and effort put into all of the frames? Don't all subsequent frames have to be at least as powerful as the OP one to be relevant at all? What about when they release Primes of the other frames and nobody cares because they aren't as good? 

Even the Mario items have SOME balance. A power star can't take you all of the way through a level, and you can still die to a pit so you have to remain careful. All the other powerups disappear when you get hit at all, and 90% of the powerups don't just allow you to shoot in every direction, while there are plenty of enemies who shoot at you from above or such. Add to that the previous fact that the dev specifically chooses when you get these buffs.

Balance is the difference between having a huge variety of items and weapons in the game that you can use (and take longer to get bored of), and having a few items and weapons plus a bunch of trash (and you get bored of everything faster as a result). If you agree with the idea that Warframe's massive variety is a good thing, then you should agree with balancing.

Edited by YUNoJump
grammar
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Sometimes you need to draw a line and just balance around that.

It hurts. But it is a necessity for game health.

A unbalanced game easily becomes stale and stops players from playing long term. A death sentence for a game like warframe.

(And then there is the thing about the history of warframe seeing more buffs then nerfs, people just only care about their strong toys)

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Balance helps variety, having that one FOTM weapon guarantees that practically everyone and thier kubrow sticks with it until it gets the nerbat as evidenced by the Synoid Gammacor at one point, there was literally nobody else using a different secondary apart from those who didn't have the standing or plat to get it in the first place.

Other examples also include the Synoid Simulor/Mirage Combo and Tonkor.

Edited by (XB1)calvina
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7 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

so if DE added a frame that had a bit too much power and it was decently better than most other frames, the best option is to then modify all 30+ other frames, rather than just nerfing the one frame? and on top of that, every single piece of content in the game would become less challenging because every single Warframe became more powerful? That sounds far too complicated.

Firstly, examine what you want to add before pushing it out. Chroma's Vex Armor calc is a good case study of DE messing up big time when they nerfed it, because they released a broken product and didn't do anything until it became normalised. Fixing bugs is one thing, changing something mechanically (like Ember's WoF) is another.

Yes, modifying all 30 frames may not be as bad as you make it look. It is still a better alternative to a nerf cycle until everything is nerfed to uniformity. 

Ya do know what's Tall Poppy Syndrome do you?

12 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

And if they left it as a single more powerful frame, then isn't that just wasting the extensive time and effort put into all of the frames? Don't all subsequent frames have to be at least as powerful as the OP one to be relevant at all? What about when they release Primes of the other frames and nobody cares because they aren't as good? 

Imbalance only arises because they didn't put in enough effort into play testing before release. Shipping something in a broken state is distasteful as it is. Don't put in effort early, pay for it later. This is a natural flow of events.

As far as I know, there is nothing in Warframe that was completely OP since release. Even considering current Saryn, you don't see her going into a spy vault for most serious play. Being OP in one niche is hardly justification for a nerf. It's like cutting off your pitching arm because you can throw baseballs faster than anyone else, even if your academics are lousy and you have two left feet.

16 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Balance is the difference between having a huge variety of items and weapons in the game that you can use (and take longer to get bored of), a lack of balance is having a few items and weapons plus a bunch of trash (and you get bored of everything faster as a result). If you agree with the idea that Warframe's massive variety is a good thing, then you should agree with balancing.

Balance is also not when everything is trash and you get frustrated at the game either. False variety is not variety.

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16 minutes ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

To see why balance is needed. Look at pre nerf telos boltace, pre nerf synoid simulor, old tonkor, current maiming strike atterax, and link nuke trinity

Those i can agree with except that nuke trin requires a full dedicated squad to do nowadays, but how come DE doesn't test the weapons properly or let others do it before pushing it to live? They do nerfs a couple months after everyone's already attached themselves to it, like on purpose to spite us. 

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7 minutes ago, ZenDash said:

Those i can agree with except that nuke trin requires a full dedicated squad to do nowadays, but how come DE doesn't test the weapons properly or let others do it before pushing it to live? They do nerfs a couple months after everyone's already attached themselves to it, like on purpose to spite us. 

because DEs can' think of all things that can happen/players can do after they ship. thats why some bugs/exploits can happen 

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4 minutes ago, LupoDWolf said:

because DEs can' think of all things that can happen/players can do after they ship. thats why some bugs/exploits can happen 

That's why i said let others do it for em create a seperate server and forum section for it, how long would it take for someone to notice that with either volt or mirage telos boltace could clear out rooms in a matter of seconds and increase it's effectiveness with macros further. 

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People who enjoy the game wants to actualy play it. When a teammate nukes the map faster than enemies can spawn, they force others to stop playing. It's just as bad if not worse than asking for a nerf to the said nuke so the one spamming it is less effective. If you want to try a new frame while leveling it up in a defense, but you can't do anything because a Quakeshee is spamming it's 4 non-stop, how would you feel? If you want to test and rank up a melee weapon, but enemies die before you can even see them, how would you feel? That's why we need balance, which cannot be perfect of course, but is still mandatory if we want Warframe to more than a boring "press-1-button-2-win" game. 

Those who defend powercreep and insult the people asking for nerfs are usualy those who just nuke everything. Why? Because they don't want to be less effective, even if it means that every other squadmate can't do anything. That is selfishness at it's finest, yet everytime this subject comes up, it's the ones asking for nerfs who are being selfish because they want everybody to be able to play equaly. "They want me to play the way they want" is what they say, yet they are the ones who force others to stop playing because there is nothing left for them to do since everything dies before they can even think about doing something. 

Nobody said Warframe wasn't based on being powerfull, but power and powercreep are 2 different things. Being powerful means being stronger than your enemies, being able to kill them without too much difficulty. Powercreep is when the power limit get's pushed further and further, leaving the rest underpowered and trivialising every challenge you see. You don't have to nuke lvl 999 enemies to be powerfull. 

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2 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

some people feel small in the pants when someone else gets more numbers at the ending screen. that is why some need balance

That makes me think, would there be less nerf whinners if the endgame score would only show your stats as solo stats?

Like you have dealt 150K damage total and killed 112 enemies, instead of an all squad data overview?

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I suppose because of the old conclave, but I am not sure of the current balance because PVP has different stats on weapons.

A strange thing is capping weapons in limits instead of rewarding higher mastery rank players with more powerful weapons.

For example a Soma Prime is capped with low base damage and high crit,
so in perform more of less within certain limits that other weapons can still compete.
There is this "ceiling" or boundary in the name of "balance"

I understand capping a weapon's damage output in a PVP setting as such 
a fully automatic rifle/ semi auto will deal lesser damage than a bolt action/ single shot rifle.
This is just so other players do not get totally butchered by another players 
using a full auto, while giving opponents a chance to fight out each other.

But in PVE setting this mentality of capping within a limit still applies.
Which makes little sense.

Instead of getting rewarded more powerful weapons as your mastery rank progresses, players are having their weapons stuck 
in this ceiling of balance.

This make little to no sense since only PVP balance does that, and nothing to do with realism.



For example a M249 will use the same ammunition as a M16, meaning 
a Gorgon would output the same per shot damage as a Karak while having straight capacity upgrade.

A M60 uses the same ammunition as M14, and also Remington 700. 
It is alike a Soma and Latron has the same base damage as Vectis.

These are "force multipliers" which is used in actual military, you empower individual soldiers 
multiple fold of combat capabilities that one soldier could keep a squad or even a platoon down 
with the proper weapon.

As you progresses to higher ranks, weapon's capabilities also goes up, I suppose as a tenno progresses
access to higher tier weapons should mean higher damage, instead of fanciful mechanics like crit or status which the current 
damage 2.0 has devolved into.



A note for DE to take might be why players are digging so much into Crit, Status, Hybrid and fanciful builds 
is simple our weapons fail to take down enemies adequately due to the endless scaling.

Anything out of the market/ foundry is combat-incompetent without throwing in mandatory mods,
even then the weapons is only capable of taking down enemies with reasonable to acceptable level of
comfort when you don't get yourself killed.

If you do find any that works well straight out of the box, they are considered god-tier weapons and are highly sought after
while the rest are basically mastery fodders to throw away. Rivens is just an bandaid to the crack in the pillar, because 
we naturally seek out the best working weapons without even needing a riven, since rivens is pretty much a moon rock, 
unless you have tonnes of plats sitting around.

Buying rivens seems a bit hard to comprehend, it is alike you go and buy a diamond sickle to farm wheat, 
the cost of the tool far exceed the job you are intending to do with the tool.


What players want is competent weapons capable of doing the jobs - killing enemies, 
it does not matter the crit, status, or whatever magic behind, as long enemies are dead when you point and click at them.
instead that usually takes 5 - 6 forma and you have something of decent performance up unitl level 80 - 100 
which then your powerful weapon is nothing more than a pea shooter, and of course people are going to upgrade 
their items to the point of insanity that a toothpick would kill an elephant in a single poke.


However amidst the power hunger player's quest for ultimate weapons, there seems to be nerf warriors who 
just could not see others enjoy the game due to their effort/ persistence/ determination/ elbow grease.

It seems to them it is overpowered for someone to be able to grind a metal bar into a sharpened blade 
and do cutting, because a tool that can do a job very well due to the passion put into refining is a blasphemy 
to their self-cherishing ego and pride.

2 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Nerf warriors are a common species as they cannot accept other forms of fun except their own narrow minded definition of what fun is. They want to slap their brand of fun on all humanity.



There is nothing wrong with Saryn being capable of nuking the whole map, since those are enemies.
Unless you have the delusion that a Katana can kill more efficiently and massively as a Nuke.
And don't forget you have the equal rights to access a Saryn.

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19 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

People who enjoy the game wants to actualy play it. When a teammate nukes the map faster than enemies can spawn, they force others to stop playing.

Shouldnt that mean that the spawn numbers need to increased badly?

A very basic ignis build on any frame can nuke earth nodes and even higher but that doesnt mean that the weapon needs nerf, it means that we need more spawns to be able to equally have fun.

For example take a look at my thread:

The enemies spawn defended, move faster to make sure no one gets bored. The infested even gained the ability to become a swarm.

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