Increasing the amount of Players on Conclave game modes

[(XBOX)N1NJAZ3R0]

😀 Hi! Im a Tenno from the Xbox Community. Im noticing alot of the player base within warframe community like to play PVE more than Conclave within all platforms, and have also asked and researched the reasons this could be. Along with the good points i have read about balancing conclave, I believe that Conclave could attract more players if it had Bots added. On xbox, we tenno must invite others to join in a conclave game or wait in a lobby for others who wish to play conclave. This may not be true for the PC platform, however a tenno friend of mine on PC has expressed his concerns on why there less players on his favorite game mode, Lunaro. Implementing Bots within the conclave can help alot of players join a match and play conclave more often. The Index has bots, in Conclave the Bots difficulty can be randomized between normal, hard, and expert (like the bots in "for honor"). Also bots can be worth less standing you would achieve than if you were to kill a real player. Reply your thoughts down below, i would like everybodies opinion in this matter.

Edited October 9, 2018 by (XB1)N1NJAZ3R0

[Triplinster]

I'm not knowledgeable on AI programming or behavior. But I think we can expand and go deep in this idea of having "bots". To get the discussion going, there are some questions I thought of which might need a reason-able answer.

1) Should bots only be added for "warm-up/training" for when there are no players? And should bots give standing/Oro?

2) Is the idea of having "Mobile" bots realize-able? Is it possible to make bots that mimic not only horizontal but also vertical movement like players do in Conclave? If it is, then how complex is it, and if it's complexity can come close to real players. Is there any AI enemy in PvE that has some similarities? (I was thinking hyena with more wall jumping and sped up movement)

3) If answer to question 2 is "No" then should we have tougher (EHP wise) bots with high damage output to reach similar punishment levels compared to normal players? Is it possible for bots with this design to reach similar "punishment" levels as normal players?

4) Is it possible to work on "bots" for PvP and improve them over time to port some of their behavior to PvE? (Just an interesting Idea I thought up which might give some purpose/meaning to this idea of having bots for PvP)

I think these are some good discussion starters. Others are free to add more questions to it.

[Xarteros]

If DE don't bring balance to Conclave, then I say they should just implement a rule: Any mission that does not have limited revives is classed as a Training/Practice mission and rewards Conclave standing. This would include Index/Rathuum, but also could spread to Dojo dueling rooms (and they could add bigger rooms for higher numbers of players), or even a certain mode of Simulacrum (with parameters to ensure limited shenanigans)

Then, add basic Rathuum/Index bots to Conclave missions, making sure that players are still split evenly between teams (Crossout does this nicely, you'll often face a single human and both teams be filled with bots).

As for Lunaro, DE should create a one-sided type of Lunaro, where teams take turns Attacking/Defending. That way, bot matches would always be on Defense (unless DE make Lunaro bots possible) so all they need to do is attack you to intercept the ball and launch it back to your side (or have it teleport or whatever)

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Other than Quake Arena not having any issues due to the lack of cosmetics grind, I've seen bots being used in PVP games...so long as there is something a PVE player wants as in cosmetics..they will forgo fighting other players and just farm the bots...I saw this all the time in Strike Vector ex..one guy would show up on the bots side and then get destroyed till he flipped over to the players farming the bots...or if he was good enough to kill them, they'd simply quit out and restart elsewhere, so they could continue farming XP uninterrupted.

 

I don't know Bots would help with Lunaro...but you might as well just make it like the Index for PVE and separate it from normal PVP Lunaro...

 

I'm more of the mind that Conclave needs outside the box PVP game types that would be interesting with side by side play like Bungies new game mode where team combat Ai hoping to better the other team engaged against their own Ai adversaries...who falls first...kind of competition...PVE player are not fans of direct one on one combat, but if you had a major distance from each other like say Jets Vs. Motorcycles in GTA....on the fence players would like the chase aspect of the game rather than a-hole behavior they want to avoid that's up close and personal...

My personal favorite PVP experience was a death race in Halo 3 called Indiana Jones where 8 players would run like mad trying to avoid being crushed by a flaming boulder chasing after them...that was really fun...Conclave needs PVP modes that are fun for PVE players...trying to get them to want to play a death match is a fools errand....they don't see that as fun..at all...

 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[Xarteros]

3 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

-snip-

If you make 'non combat' modes for Conclave (like your Indiana Jones match) just to attract PvE players, then you might as well just add Conclave standing for Fishing competitions, Rathuum/Index battles, and Clan dueling rooms. Hell, if you want players to really compete, make the Elite Sanctuary Onslaught scoreboard grant Conclave standing at the end of the day, so players are inspired to go as long as possible rather than just quitting and restarting after they reach the rotation they want.

Of course, that would either not fix the Conclave playerbase at all (regarding Lunaro, DM etc), or it would make it worse by luring Conclave players to these other modes. You can't increase the Conclave playerbase without making the existing content more fun, and building on it from there.

Lots of PvE mains are happy to get up close and personal in PvP, but providing it's the right setting. Firstly, Conclave as it stands is disastrous. You have to literally research your favourite weapons and frames to find out just how differently they function in PvP. Either that, or you just enter a match and get slapped in the face with the realisation that two of your abilities have been removed and replaced, and the other two function so much weaker that the casting animation is just a way to beg enemies to kill you. Mix that in with the fact that the majority of Conclave-loyal players display a lot of rudeness and a general lack of sportsmanship, and they're clued in on all the OP gear and abilities that haven't been balanced properly. What does that add up to? An incredibly inhospitable new-player experience. Hell, the population of Conclave would probably triple just by players improving their manners alone.

Until Conclave becomes a proper, fair challenge (with a manageable amount of weapons and powers, and more unified stats), it's not going to be appealing to PvE players, and it's going to continue to stagnate as it has the last X many years. The rudeness of the extant playerbase becomes much less important if the playing field is leveled.

I'll sum this up with a comparison of PvP modes that I do or don't play.

Dont: GW2/Archeage/BNS: PvP involves little or no team coordination (apart from zerging), requires far too much attention to current metas, with very low TTK. Slight mistakes are incredibly punishing, so learning curve is off the charts unless you devote your time to it.

Do: Guns of Icarus: Great playerbase, enemies will literally provide you helpful advice on how to do better next round, or they will join your team to help balance things. PvP involves a good amount of coordination, and a higher TTK

Do: Halo CE (and similar games): Everyone has the same stats, and it all comes down to a matter of tactics, aim, responsiveness and team coordination. Still low TTK, but feels much more comfortable because it's also more reliable to get kills of your own.

I'd really love to add Warframe to my list of Do's. I've got over 3000 hours in Warframe, I've been playing since Update 3, and it's my dream to see every mode become actually fun and rewarding. Like all of the old systems that used to be broken or un-fun, it just needs a kick in the right direction before it starts being less of a drag (much like how Focus got reworked and is now much more fun/useful to use).

 

[Triplinster]

5 hours ago, Xarteros said:

Mix that in with the fact that the majority of Conclave-loyal players display a lot of rudeness and a general lack of sportsmanship, and they're clued in on all the OP gear and abilities that haven't been balanced properly. What does that add up to? An incredibly inhospitable new-player experience. Hell, the population of Conclave would probably triple just by players improving their manners alone.

"Mix that in with the fact that the majority of Conclave-loyal players display a lot of rudeness"
I'm nearing 100k kills and I haven't seen this being the case for majority of "Conclave-loyal" players.

Most vets I've seen have some sportsmanship. They actively choose not to use things like Ignis or snipetron. And they also have secret "no ability" rule going on. Most players that do use abilities or easy weapons tend to be very lacking in mechanical skill and hence not the "conclave loyal" or veteran types. They are easily dispensed with counters/tactics.

I would be very careful about painting the majority in such way as you have done.

[Okami_Amaterasu]

2 hours ago, Triplinster said:

"Mix that in with the fact that the majority of Conclave-loyal players display a lot of rudeness"
I'm nearing 100k kills and I haven't seen this being the case for majority of "Conclave-loyal" players.

Most vets I've seen have some sportsmanship. They actively choose not to use things like Ignis or snipetron. And they also have secret "no ability" rule going on. Most players that do use abilities or easy weapons tend to be very lacking in mechanical skill and hence not the "conclave loyal" or veteran types. They are easily dispensed with counters/tactics.

I would be very careful about painting the majority in such way as you have done.

I mean I've been told to kms on more than 1 occassion, so I don't find it too hard to believe.

[Triplinster]

20 minutes ago, Okami_Shiranui said:

I mean I've been told to kms on more than 1 occassion, so I don't find it too hard to believe.

I wouldn't be surprised too if you used weapons that were clearly not considered "balanced" by majority of players. That would frustrate all groups of players, new or old.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

11 hours ago, Xarteros said:

TL:DR

 

Hey, I threw Jets and Motor Cycles in there as well...nothing stopping you from shooting at the jet...or pushing another player off a runway before the Killball gets you...

[----Legacy----]

6 hours ago, Triplinster said:

Most vets I've seen have some sportsmanship. They actively choose not to use things like Ignis or snipetron. And they also have secret "no ability" rule going on. Most players that do use abilities or easy weapons tend to be very lacking in mechanical skill and hence not the "conclave loyal" or veteran types. They are easily dispensed with counters/tactics.

Even tough most experienced players have a sense of sportmanship and a respectable attitude, there are are also a few pricks who won't doubt to ruin a lobby for everyone just because someone else killed them a couple of times more than what they expected and get upset to the point of teaming up against clearly less experienced players using strategies that offer no room for counterplay andmakibg us leave the game completely discouraged with scores like 0/0/30. We both know who are some of these awfully toxic pseudo skilled players, abd i'm sure you've seen how one of them is constantly bragging about his scores in conclave and his screenshots usually show the same combo in the background with a list filled by names of newcomers. Hell, we even talked about them and lddly enough i found out that one of them is a member of your clan so i'm not sure about tve kind of people is being accepted there since the only other 2 players from said clan that i've gotten to talk to seem to be a diametral opposites to this one (i've even seen Todd being killed a lot in a match simply because he stops playing to give advice to new players and someone else takes the opportunities and he still doesn't care about that enough to bring out unbalanced gear or combos).

[Dusteon]

4 hours ago, Triplinster said:

I wouldn't be surprised too if you used weapons that were clearly not considered "balanced" by majority of players. That would frustrate all groups of players, new or old.

I don't think you can claim "some sportsmanship" then in the very next response admit being told to kill yourself is a normal response if you use something the vets don't like.

[Triplinster]

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Even tough most experienced players have a sense of sportmanship and a respectable attitude, there are are also a few pricks who won't doubt to ruin a lobby for everyone just because someone else killed them a couple of times more than what they expected and get upset to the point of teaming up against clearly less experienced players using strategies that offer no room for counterplay andmakibg us leave the game completely discouraged with scores like 0/0/30. We both know who are some of these awfully toxic pseudo skilled players, abd i'm sure you've seen how one of them is constantly bragging about his scores in conclave and his screenshots usually show the same combo in the background with a list filled by names of newcomers. Hell, we even talked about them and lddly enough i found out that one of them is a member of your clan so i'm not sure about tve kind of people is being accepted there since the only other 2 players from said clan that i've gotten to talk to seem to be a diametral opposites to this one (i've even seen Todd being killed a lot in a match simply because he stops playing to give advice to new players and someone else takes the opportunities and he still doesn't care about that enough to bring out unbalanced gear or combos).

 

1 hour ago, Dusteon said:

I don't think you can claim "some sportsmanship" then in the very next response admit being told to kill yourself is a normal response if you use something the vets don't like.

My overall main point is that you can't paint majority of "conclave loyal" players as rude, toxic and players who lack sportsmanship. That's a blanket term being given here.

I also didn't claim "kill yourself" is a normal response. But that the expression of frustration is shared by all groups, not just "conclave loyals". Different points.

[----Legacy----]

3 hours ago, Triplinster said:

My overall main point is that you can't paint majority of "conclave loyal" players as rude, toxic and players who lack sportsmanship. That's a blanket term being given here.

Even tough I agree with most conclave veterans being really nice, we can't deny the existence of a few rotten apples like the ones i've mentioned above. Players who, albeit experienced and skilled, are selfish enough to turn any lobby in a really miserable experience for everyone by bringing whatever is their most op loadout and use it agains everyone else just because someone made something they didn't like and made them upset. To make things worst these guys also mock those less experienced players for being unable to fight back.

9 hours ago, Okami_Shiranui said:

I mean I've been told to kms on more than 1 occassion, so I don't find it too hard to believe.

I've been told to kms too and it's usually players in the high numbers of MR with a low kill count or in the low syndicate rankings who say it to others. Basically PvE veterans who think to be skilled just because they can wreck sorties and ESO with their meme strike + blood rush + primed reach polearm/whip and expect it to work the same wonders in PvP (and funnily enough it works until they leave recruit conditioning and they get faced with a real test to their skills)

Edited October 10, 2018 by ----Legacy----

[Theroxenes]

I don't think discussing which parts of the community are most toxic is really fruitful -- there are toxic elements in any large group of people. Just put them on your ignore list and/or report their poor behavior.

As for the idea of bots, it could be excellent if done right. I would have similar concerns as Trip: AI that would truly prepare you would need to be fairly complex at the top end, and AI is not a simple problem.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Theroxenes

[Xarteros]

On 2018-10-10 at 8:48 PM, Triplinster said:

"Mix that in with the fact that the majority of Conclave-loyal players display a lot of rudeness"
I'm nearing 100k kills and I haven't seen this being the case for majority of "Conclave-loyal" players.

Most vets I've seen have some sportsmanship. They actively choose not to use things like Ignis or snipetron. And they also have secret "no ability" rule going on. Most players that do use abilities or easy weapons tend to be very lacking in mechanical skill and hence not the "conclave loyal" or veteran types. They are easily dispensed with counters/tactics.

I would be very careful about painting the majority in such way as you have done.

Well, I guess I'm sorry for generalising. It's just been the bulk of my experience in Conclave, and also a lot of what I've seen from self-proclaimed Conclave 'loyalists' on the forums. I guess I wasn't really considering them to be a vocal minority